Hello Bernard,

This intergenerational issue is a big and interesting one: and crucial in lots of ways, in terms of the issues you raise, which it seems to me arent just about housing and pensions etc (which really matter) but about civic republicanism, or, more simply, stakeholding, and a future for NZ. I'd be interested to read more on this: am following your material, but if there's anything larger I could/ should access?

"“Baby boomers have had all the good times and we get stuck paying the bills in the form of education, pensions, housing, job security, screwing the environment and so on,” said Vaughan."

Who's Vaughan???

The young have a numbers disadvantage - there are more BB's, and they're more voting-savvy - at present.

As the BB'S die off, and the younger mature, that will morph. One wild card in that room is the Maori demographic - very quickly it projects as the major voting bloc.

The property imbalance doesn't concern me overmuch - all owners die, and the housing wil be lived in by someone.

The bigger intergenerational issue is what we are going to leave them - if peak energy is taken as '50% gone', then it's reasonable to assume that you could replace each item of your existing infrastructure once (while ticking over life-as-usual) or do an equivalent replacement.

Given that all roads, dams, buildings, sewers etc, have a 'life', their choices get severely hamstrung, very quickly. I would also suggest, that they are not being given the skills to address that - our grandfathers were probably more capable in that regard...

One thing is for sure - they are unlikely to thank us. They'll laugh at the crop of ticky-tacky 'I-am' statements that are the houses of the last ten years, and they'll rue the condition of land and water.

Woe betide us if they outvote us on euthenasia........ :)

Bernard

The spectre of our ageing population has led some to suggest there’s
inevitable intergenerational conflict ahead. Tension will grow between
the demands of our ‘Gen Y’ (the ‘millenials’ aged 17 to 30 years old)
and the ‘Baby Boomers’ (those born during the period immediately
post-World War II). It’s being labelled by the Americans as the
‘geriatric gap’. As the population ages and health care and retirement
costs rise rapidly in the USA, politics is becoming increasingly
divided along generational lines.

In his article ‘We’re talking about my generation’ (16 September
2009), http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-investment/news/article.cfm?c_id=71&o... Andrew West suggested that a tranche of New Zealanders have
presided over the ‘gradual, interminable decline in relative
prosperity’ in the country. While it’s hard to meaningfully pin
responsibility on one generation because of innumerable domestic and
external factors, Andrew’s engaging theme touched on the perception
one generation has shortchanged another. As the population ages, the
interaction between Gen Y (and X) and the retiring Baby Boomers will
be a major feature of our future socio-political landscape.

Generation Y gets a bad name. They’re often characterised as selfish,
materialistic and spendthrift. But a recent Otago University study by
Dr Lisa McNeil entitled ‘Y Worry? http://www.otago.ac.nz/research/hekitenga2008/yworry.html – Generation Y’s attitude towards
money and debt’ suggests that while Gen Y attitudes differ from
previous generations, this reflects factors in their environment such
as easy credit, material plenty and consumerism. McNeil’s findings
suggest that we ought to understand Gen Y better before labelling
them.

Holding a ‘cynic’s mirror’ up to the Boomers, are they in any position
to call Gen Y selfish? Born after the depression and World War II,
they never knew the deprivations of their parents and grandparents but
benefited from the economic prosperity that followed. That included
free healthcare and the likelihood of inheriting their parent’s
primary asset - a mortgage free home.

The Boomers spent the 1960’s and much of the 70’s enjoying all the
benefits of the welfare state including free tertiary education.
Taking with one hand, they rejected their parents’ more conservative
values with the other and asserted their right to self determination.

Jobs were plentiful. In the 1980’s they took the helm of the economy,
crashing it seriously several times, particularly 1987 and the 2008
GFC. In the 1990’s they made the ‘tough’ decisions to extend the
reforms of the 1980’s by introducing further user pays initiatives,
welfare cuts, means testing and student loans. This was done while
increasingly scaling back taxation on the better paid – and you can
guess who that group was by then.

To be fair, the Boomers took difficult decisions when New Zealand’s
highly regulated economy was in serious trouble in the early 1980’s.
People tend to forget that by 1984 Kiwis were living with perilous
national credit and debt, state ordered wage freezes, regulation of
mortgages and a top tax rate of 67c in the dollar.

But some questions linger about the reforms of the 1980’s. Why do
countries like the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden manage smaller
economies in a way the public receive high quality social services
without the need to resort to harsh free market measures? Did the
first Labour government of 1984 too slavishly mirror reforms better
adapted to larger, much more industrialised economies such as the USA
and Britain? What sufficient thought was given to New Zealand’s size
and unique differentiators?

The baby-boom generation began reaching retirement age last year and
because they are living longer and are generally more healthy they are
also more politically active and vocal. The Boomers 'free market'
ideals - so powerful in the 1980's - are truly tested when their
health care and retirements benefits are threatened in old age.

To Gen Y the Boomers look like beneficiaries of much they will never
receive themselves. Will attitudes toward the elderly change as their
voting clout is balanced against their unsustainable demand on social
services structures?

As the first of the Boomers reach retirement supported by Government
superannuation they are becoming advocates for their continuing access
to health care and retirement entitlements. The Boomers are also
becoming known as the Selfish Generation in the USA. In Anya
Kamenetz’s book “Generation Debt” http://www.amazon.com/Generation-Debt-Student-NoBenefits-Geezers/dp/1594... she reports that when Boomers were asked if they would sacrifice their own economic well-being to help
their children, a majority said ‘no.’

The pressure on the economy will grow as Boomers retire in larger and
larger numbers but continue using services that are increasingly
difficult to fund through taxation. As they squeeze healthcare and
other benefits to unsustainable, will there be a paradigm shift in the
relationship between the Boomers and successor generations? How do we
perceive 'the elderly' - who are now increasingly fit and active until
late in life.

Generational conflict isn’t desirable for society, but if the the
Boomers and Gens X and Y regard each other as selfish, Gen Y may treat
senior to the same ‘tough decisions’ they made in decades past. We
will have to wait to see if the Boomers reap as they sowed.

Simon Arcus (Auckland Lawyer)

Your articles Bernard are starting to reek of sensationalism, I for one appreciate this because if it gets the young thinking about how their income is continually being taken by the oldies, then hopefully they will wake up and start to think.
Why is a home suddenly worth 7.5 times my wages when it was just 3 times for my parents?
Why should I as a taxpayer, pay for someone else's bad decision to build or buy a leaky house?
Why do I have to leave NZ to work overseas to get good pay to pay back my student loan?
I could go on, their is so much intergenerational theft, no wonder our country cannot get ahead.

I'm obviously being oversimplistic here, but some questions I have as a new resident of 8 years who lacks the historical background:
1. where are the Builder's insurers ?? Surely a soggy home is simply not fit for purpose and defective and falls under insurance coverage?
2. If residential property is NZs major source of retirement savings and the government's building regulations did not meet NZ weather standards - why don't they front up or why not just bring class action suites against them??
On one hand, I don't want my tax dollars finding it's way into home owners hands while the shoddy builders have no consequence. Yet, it is an industry and investment issue and I could be the next victim of some useless government agency dropping the ball.

"The short sighted thinking of some people beggars belief". Noeline, I think you are the case in point.

Intergenerational war, if the BB looked after ther children and this anglosaxon society believed in the family unit and extended a helping hand to their offspring we wouldn't have an issue.
There is a difference between having a social thread binding the peoples and having a socialist thread.

A new political party, tapping into twitter & facebook and targeting the under 35's could do very well at the next election by playing on the point that those of us under 35 are going to have to do it very tough at some point in order to pay for all the costs mentioned above, leaky homes, pensions, healthcare, benefits, govt beauracracy etc.

The thing with debt repayment is, the sooner you get onto it, the sooner you are able to get back on your feet. Yes, it will be hard for NZ if we make big changes in the next year or two and look to try to fix this now. But I would prefer this short term pain to the massive pain we will feel if we leave it 5, 10, 15 years.

The politicians of the two major parties are not willing to upset people and make the tough decisions that need to be made. A party along these lines, with credible people like Gareth Morgan either standing, or endorsing these recommendations will alert the younger voters to the problem we now face.

One of the more selfish of the BB's lobby groups is out in force here,

http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2010/03/15/opinion-why-a-d...

@NOELINE
Thankyou, Noeline for a well written reply, I was going to write in a similar vein. The young people today have been so spoilt, they actually get bored really easily. Hence the drinking, texting, tweeting culture. I have been surprised when talking to my young relatives and their friends despite being well educated they know very little in a practical sense.
This down turn will be the making of many of them, they will have to learn the arts of Gardening, Baking and Sewing/ Knitting, woodworking etc like their grandparents did to survive.

I agree , Jacko , but Bernard is pigeon-holing people , as is his wont . There are no generations . The world is made up of individuals . And one little gaggle of them in Wellington , led by John Key , are failing the NZ people , rather badly . Nothing to do with BB's/Gen X's , or any of that malarky .

I'm 43 now but I can easily remember sitting down with a friend a little younger than myself back in 2001 or there about and have a great long rant about how unfairly things were for younger people. I was a GenXer then and I guess I still am although it feels different for me now.

Back then I was upset about student loans and the whole "education industry" that seemed about make government money available for "education entrepreneurs" and too bad for the young people who follow each other a bit like lemmings to get loans for the latest trendy qualification.

I was also resentful because it was already, I felt, extremely difficult to get the money together for a house. If it hadn't been for the hiatus caused by the Asian financial crises I may have missed the house boat as well. From about 2004 onwards I told anyone who was in the market for a house to keep saving and not to buy as I felt sure that prices were now beyond the pale. We sold our house for an what seemed an absurd amount in late 2006 and have traded down into a rural center so as to be without debt in anticipation of what I believe to be a period of real turmoil. So we benefited but it was a somewhat sour achievement.

To conclude if anyone has got this far there was already inter-generational bitterness brewing in my mind as long as eight or nine years ago. I'm not happy at all that public funds should be used to pay for the mess the boomers have made. I am shocked that Key should suggest it is OK for savers and tax payers to pay by inflation for the excessive Debt generated by Boomers who have put everything on the house. It sends absolutely the wrong message and is unfair in so many ways.

There are no ” generations ” . That is a myth , for a start .

Agree with RT/Prosperopink on this.
A smokescreen - and whilst I agree with much of what Bernard says, I don't think this over-simplification helps.

We're in this together... just doesn't feel like it!

Tie this in with the 'olly' thread. This is all about lack of vision, and an inability to find our own identity/place in the world in any way other than jingoism.

The 'Ollys' play the 'only game in town' - domestic property. and we end end up in a decreasing spiral of our own making.

I think that the 'should we be exporting our kids' argument can stand on its own.

RT

I have to agree, you sort of wonder what sort of relationship Bernard has with his parents? As far as I'm aware most NZ gen Y's have BB parents, so according to BH the state should step in to negotiate the fiscal relationship between these parties.

In away it is so very Kiwi, we have become so used to being herded that we have lost the skills required to plan for our futiures, build our own dwellings and now according to Bernard, talk to our parents

Neven

Oh dear. There's lot of BB's here who haven't been listening.

Firstly - Bernard, this is not a a war. The reality is that qualified Gen X and Y (the ones who actaully pay all this tax you lot want to spend) are mobile and will vote with their feet. The vast majority don't waste time arguing - they just up and leave. The world is a very big place and salaries and opportunities are bigger just about everywhere else but here. The NZ population is seriously hollowed out in the 25-40 age bracket and whilst some do eventually come home, many are now staying because there is neither financial nor emotional reasons for returning (its not actually cheaper to buy a house in auckland than in the SE of England anymore...)

So BB's who come on here and rant about young wastrels are missing the point - this is a debate the BB's need to have with themselves about who is going to pay for public services in their retirement and put up the cash for them to release the equity in their homes. Net Migration might be close to zero but low socio-economic families from the islands are not replacing the productivity, earning potential and future tax-paying ability of the highly educated NZ children forced overseas by run away houseprices, student debt and poisonous social policies.

If those children don't return the country will continue to run down - healthcare, law enforcement, civil amenities will suffer from the reduction in the tax base and there will be no-one left to put up the $1.5 million you truly believe your plaster clad sponge in Mt Albert is "worth".

Wake up, smell the roses, talk to each other and stop blaming a generation that wasn't even alive when you were paying taxes at age 15....

KWJ, you say, "Tie this in with the ‘olly’ thread. This is all about lack of vision, and an inability to find our own identity/place in the world in any way other than jingoism."

Nahh, the 'olly' thread is just part of a concerted effort by the SPIs, simple really. Just self/vested interest.

While there is no doubt that there are intergenerational issues that need to be resolved, the debate needs to approached with some balance - not the sensationalist headline grabbing rubbish BH has written of late. It doesnt help matters one bit.

Disclaimer: I am not a BB.

"They will inherit the debts that those in power are now accumulating by refusing to change pensions now, refusing to reorganise health care now and by refusing to save now."

.... and by refusing to address the warps in the tax system that leaves the 'real economy' and our economy as a whole, weaker than it might otherwise be.

Cheers, Les.

The fact that gen x & y are leaving in droves is the reason why changes need to be made. It's not about playing the blame game, all of NZ will suffer through the hardship needed to right our course, but if too many people of the 25-40 age are leaving NZ then NZ will continue it's steady decline down the standard of living index as pension/health costs rise, welfare state increases and business opportunities/people of employable age decreases.

Yes it's sensationalist reporting, but, someone needs to stir the country into action. Hopefully the govt are able to stand up and take one on the chin, acknowledge dropping the ball here and put us back on the path to prosperity.

@NevilleWC
Thanks for your post, at least you can see some sense! I think BH is really barking up the wrong tree on this subject. It is important for young people to go overseas to see how good it is in NZ. Bernard is in a good position to teach his young children practical skills and to be on the school boards to ensure the education system is changed to allow this.

Yes I'm in late on this ........ but we have banged it to death before.....it is just a nonsense.. an indulgence in fantasy.... if you want to knock off mom and pop for their money or assets then be my guest and prepare for consequence.

As I've said before the inevitable transfer of wealth through expiry of the holder will ensure you poor hard done by greedy little bas@^ds will get some loot and land and presume to become us..........

You see the irony is you.... will...... become ....us... and assimilation complete, the cycle will continue.

Yeah, it's all doom and gloom Bernard, I'm 38 years old and I wont get to retire in my life time. The best I could hope for is to have some sort of self employed income which physically and mentally isn't to taxing for my final years.

The good news is that I like working and apply myself well, I don't understand why to-days elderly don't want to work. It's not as if they'd be doing physical work and it's part of keeping healthy and active.

I guess even for the formally hard working generation of BB's - life is all about sitting on a beach and watching life pass you by ~ a bit like the "dole bludgers" they used to despise

It's just not cricket Bernard...you are expected to be churning out the same BS as the poodle media and showing support for the useless do bugger all govt. I'm afraid your name has been removed from the knighthood list.

" I don’t understand why to-days elderly don’t want to work"...no worries my son...when you get to 60, understanding will come to you!. Bugger working. Life is to be enjoyed on a beach or sinking pints or enjoying a great garden, not taking orders from some punk boss out to improve their cv at your expense.

Your definition of "widely" must be a bit generous.

"..This baby boomer v gen X & Y war is a storm in a tea cup invented by interest.co.nz ..". Even more rubbish. You'd expect a sub 'BB' to be able to use Google.

Not very original Nicholass. Wally beat you to it. Obviously my arguement is so strong you are lost for words...

.

Here's another thing bloody boomers do... we repeat ourselves...... if you want to knock off mom and pop for their money or assets then be my guest and prepare for consequence.

As I’ve said before the inevitable transfer of wealth through expiry of the holder will ensure you poor hard done by greedy little bas@^ds will get some loot and land and presume to become us……….

You see the irony is you…. will…… become ….us… and assimilation complete, the cycle will continue.

Ha !

@Bill

"Hey hang on a bit mate……..I’ve been paying taxes since the day I
started work at age 15. Out of this tax I’ve been paying my share of
support for the health and pension needs of aged NZers and been
mighty happy to do it, safe in the knowledge that when my turn came
I’d have paid my subs and would be able to rely on the same support
that I’d financed for others."

Fair or not Bill, I think part of Bernard's point is along the lines of the fact that while they paid their taxes, BB's had to pay for *fewer* older/younger people (ie non BB people), leaving more in the kitty for spending benefiting BB's.

The younger generation coming up has to spread their taxes over a larger number of BB's than the BB's themselves had to.

As an individual you may feel harddone by (paying tax for others and expecting the same in return), but you didn't quite do the same thing expected of the current generations - you didnt pay for MORE than 1 older person. This generation may well be happy to do what you did, cover x people with their taxes, but thats going to be a bit less $$ per person for the BBs.

"an economic war of the generations?"
Sounds like something HG Wells would have dreamed up
Or a Muldoon tactic...divide and conquer

OK leaky building bail out..
Who designed the 'technology' not BB builders, they where just old fogies, behind the times and the advice they put followed was snowed over..expect those who refused to build them....
Who designed the buildings BB archetypes or BBs?
Who approved the technology in councils, younger whizz kids or old school BBs
Who actually owns/built all these house BBs..
I know far more ppl under 45 who are the culprits
Lets just see the numbers to back up the claims?

So it boils down to one big ASS -U & ME as to its all the BBs who are to blame

People of all generations have lost savings due to finance companies going under..but retired ppl make far better media copy sob stories....any of these get a bail out...NO they all made a bad call for whatever reason..the retired ppl are to old to recover, the younger generation have heaps of time to rebuild...and lets face it there is a lot of BBs who in their lifetimes had to rebuild, often several times.

BH..
"The ones I worry about are my 16 year old daughter and my 7 year old daughter.
They will inherit the debts that those in power are now accumulating by refusing to change pensions now, refusing to reorganise health care now and by refusing to save now.
As others above have pointed out, this generation now are unlikely to kick up a stink. They’ll just leave.
I really want to be a grandfather that watches his grandkids grow up in New Zealand. That’s why I’m kicking up a stink"

That make me want to throw up.....
My grandparents instilled in their children a will to get on with what they need to do, without hand outs....and my parents did the same...We have I have done the same.
The result every one of these generations have been thru great depressions, recessions world Wars, huge country debits..
Why because they dont waste their time "Oh Whooh is me, I will never get anywhere, they are to blame" and those that did have nothing now.
Bernard, if your child en turn out not being able to get ahead it is because of your failure, as a Parent, to give your children the attitudes to get ahead.
Your assumption if expo lated out say all the children of your generation will have nothing, never own a home or a boat etc...I will lay a 100:1 odds that there will be a good proportion of their generation that will do very well thank you very much.

Your fears are no different from the fears of and generation from the beginning of time for the future of their children...
Or put another way...grow up m8.

Bernard I agree with and will disagree with many in these blogs from one thread to another including yourself....this one your are way out of line on.

My granfather, who saw a few yrs in the Somme, told his children..you are over 18, I have given you the skills, now go build your own life...without a penny from me
My parents took the same attitude, except they died early leaving nothing
We have done the same withour children now married in their early 20yrs with children...times are tough they are stuggling like their forefathers did...even flippin burgers at macs to make ends meet..they dont waste their time pionting fibures at us or our generation.....instead hey say "thanks Dad, for giving us the grit to get off our butts...it will not always be like this....l most of our friends are no longer friends, we have moved o from those loosers and now our friends are workers like us"

They maybe flipping burgers, and not doing to well, but Im damn proud of their attitudes, and their old school grit...and THAT is what will see them thru their next 50yrs...and our grandchildren
I used to worry (very privately) like you....but belived in how we raised our children.....now .. I have total faith in my children
Maybe you should give your children more credit than you give them...
Not lay your insecure fears out in the media, and doubt yourself as a parent...doing so will create what you fear most for your grandchildren.

This thread is about your generations insecurity as a parent, not about "an economic war of the generations"

Hell I feel like putting you over my knee and giving you a good bloody spanking lol

My friends have already gone. A group of us went through university in Computer Science. Of the 8 of us, 7 went overseas. One's since come back, but the others are happy dotted around the globe. Given the way things are moving here I'm not sure I'd recommend any of them return...

" Obviously my arguement is so strong you are lost for words"(sic)...bit generous with the eeees there shorts! Homework tonight son..."arguments are for those who argue" 500 times longhand please.

I'm middle aged, born in New Zealand, and have worked hard all my life. I started saving for retirement young (well before KiwiSaver). I don't blow my money and appreciate the thinks I have. I have private health insurance.

I have a stable family, married (one wife :-)) and our 3 children. Our kids are great they have respect and the look out for others. They are keen to learn at school, they love reading books and regularly visit the local public library. The can have a great day’s fun from mountain biking and a picnic.

I feel as though my family is stuck in the wrong generation (and I expect my children will be even more so) - I'm thinking about starting a support group for other people like us !!

My question is:
Is New Zealand still the best place to bring up a family? If not where would you recommend, or is it just a case of “the grass looks greener”?

Shorts,

Babyboomers are not dying off. They will spend the next 20-30 years dying off. That's the point. They are living much longer than their parents. They'll also be spending a lot of money on healthcare and pensions. The trouble is it's not their money. The money will be the taxes generated by those Generation X and Y taxpayers still left here.

Unless of course we change to a means tested pension and a private healthcare system.

cheers
Bernard

Steps, the fundamental problem with your idea is that it is very hard to do that now. The level of tax/rent/expenses leaves very little to save, and if there is anything left to save it will be erroded by inflation.

I am easily in the top 10% of income earners in my age bracket and have no children and 2 income earners and 0 debt. I have been saving for about 5 years (5 years of buying not a single luxury - never eating out - no cars) to buy a house and am finally at the place where I could if I wanted to without it ruling the rest of my life. That is the problem. If I can just achieve it how on earth are people my age with families or lower incomes supposed to do it?

Oh come on Christov...they have a zimmer with your name on it ready for you and heaps of soup. Think what you will miss!

I still like the post from the weekend of the chap who 9 months ago identified any of 12 houses that were for sale that he would buy, and would take 'the last one standing'. 11 are still for sale, at 'softening' prices.

I can't believe people are beating the 'went through a Depression and a World War' drum regarding today's retirees. The Depression ended more than 70 years ago. Seriously, how many people are alive today who experienced that first-hand as an adult? Damn few. Being there as a four-year-old hardly counts. And BB's trying to appropriate the hardships of WWII for themselves is just hilariously wrong and self-serving. They hadn't been born then, by definition, and can't claim to have experienced anything by the post-War boomtimes.

Those with longer memories and/or an interest in social and economic history will know that this isn't the first "generational war". About 20 years ago, apparently it was the (seemingly much-despised) baby boomers who where on the receiving end of intergenerational "theft" from their parents (the welfare generation), according to David Thomson in his 1996 book "Selfish Generations: How Welfare States Grow Old". Reviews of the book, which give you an idea of its central arguments can be found at:
http://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/jou...
and:
http://www.eastonbh.ac.nz/?p=84

Interestingly enough, given the number of discussions on this and other forums, another review (http://www.jstor.org/pss/30012944) asserts that "...a generation of home-owners in the 1960s benefited uniquely from a historic shift in housing prices, which has since imposed crushing burdens on more recent cohorts."

Kakapo Says:

March 15th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
I can’t believe people are beating the ‘went through a Depression and a World War’ drum regarding today’s retirees.

Like who...? no bleating here mate it's all coming from the whinning I want it now Gen on this blog ...unless you did not take the time to read the balance of input.

when I find that bloody violin I'll knock out a tune to the pitch of your whinning. ..I...WANT..IT...NOW...

Interestingly enough, given the number of discussions on this and other forums, another review (http://www.jstor.org/pss/30012944) asserts that “…a generation of home-owners in the 1960s benefited uniquely from a historic shift in housing prices, which has since imposed crushing burdens on more recent cohorts.”

That is interesting!

House prices did go pretty soft in '97-2000, which helped. The recent boom has been about low interest rates. What's going to save today's young people? Even lower rates?

Cabbage soup Christov.....good for the digestion and cheap as.

Kakapo....not so fast with the judgements...us believers in past lives have every right to claim all the experiences we can remember....and by gum we ought to be able to claim compensations as well.....Would you like an application form?...only $10 to cover printing and postage!

Kakapo,,,You have not a clue....e.g. As a youngish BB ( Country) when bread arrived it was a week old..Spent days planting and picking up potatoes ( kinda Irish), class numbers in NZ were 45-50, no heaters, no fat kids in our classes, no trips away, it was solid schoolwork, either you passed or failed.....no money for doctor , you just got better or drank the caster oil....And we looked after nan and gramps in the family home till they died a couple of years back, , no dumping in resthomes...Anyway this healthy BB is making plans to expand a healthy third business...Funny thread.....

They’re hardly dying off. We could be so lucky.
The oldest babyboomers are only just 65. Their life expectancy will probably be around 85+, so will be at least 20 years before we see any significant action on that front.
They have some gall calling younger generations lazy.
Of the 850,000 of them they only managed to produce 650,000 odd children. Only 1.5 per couple on average, that’s pretty lazy and a big reason why we have a big fiscal crunch coming.

Kakapo Says:

March 15th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
In that case, Wally, I’m filling in a claim for a million bucks in compensation for unpaid labour propping up big rocks at Stonehenge. Who should I mail it to?

I had to knit battleships for the soldiers. Brutal it was.

Luxury mate .!..if only I'd copped the soft jobs like battleship knitting.....when ah were lad ahd work sooo ard me face would bleed not sweat bleed mate....me ands fell off n me feet were reduced to stumps only usefull fer potato planting untill me back broke clean in alf so's I could sit in this chair n ave a stupid conversation wit you.....luxury mate.

and yes I can probably guess how old you are................12....14...?

Andy M

You are correct you can't take the house but certainly can take the cash it sells for. Or do you think I would leave it or give it away?

GenBB - BBs can't all sell at once (not to Gen X and Y ---> they won't have the $$$ or access to it).

One thing I have often thought about is the massive transfer of BBs who hold growth assets ie property and shares into income producing assets and more conservative types of investments.

Bond yields and deposit rates reduce perhaps? asset price deflation?

...Back to work to pay some taxes to fund an unsustainable universal pension that I certainly wont get but my children will still be paying.

Plenty of time to practice knowing that pension rolls in every week I would suggest Christov.

That was my thought - in every previous example of the younger cohorts being removed from a society, it was from the starting point of a more traditional pyramid-shaped demographic, with a high birthrate being counterbalanced by high infant mortality and fewer living to extreme old age, and in every case it was a localised phenomenon.

Economists need to hook up with the physicists and ecologists, and build some understanding of finite resources, environmental carrying capacity, and the unpleasant ways in which carrying capacity overshoot are corrected.

The BB generation is for years at war against nature and ethic principles of life.
The Y/X generation remembers the BB generation not in a positive light, dominated by greed and megalomaniac, which in many ways destroyed their quality of life, environment and nature. The price they have to pay for a recovery isn’t affordable – it all ends in disaster.
Probably not as individuals, but as a generation they will suck the honey and let us drop like rotten apples - and who can blame them ?

Walter

BB's are dying at a much faster rate then Gen X & Y. They don't even need to die for control of their wealth to be transferred - just become incapacitated. I have been to about a dozen funerals in the last 5 years. All bar 1 for BB's.

@Alex: "For me to buy a house I will have to pay an inflated price." There is a piece BH wrote I think, indeed one of a few similar articles, basically it comes down to wait...BBs in big houses and/or with multiple properties will have to sell into a smaller buyers market...too many BBs chasing too few buyers such as yourself...prices will therefore drop (if they dont far sooner)... Consider BBs will be moving from earners and "savers" to retirees who will need to cash assets in order to live and eventually move into retirement homes/villages...and there you will be...all else being equal....by that I mean I expect the BBs to vote themselves better pensions they are too numerous to do otherwise...its happening now with the gold card/ free transport fiasco. So you will be stuck with even far higher taxes than pre-baby boomers such as myself who will cop it in the next 20 years...

Then we see comments from BH that you will leave becasue of this, trouble is every other country is in the same boat....so no where to go......

regards

If BB's have a far greater wealth than previous generations it stands to reason that their offspring will over the coming decades inherit a far greater wealth than previous generations. Can't see too much generational stress on that aspect

@Bill: problem is there are too many Bills...and not enough after you, so present retiree numbers is I think 13% of the population it ballons to 24%...basically x 2 too many to manage....so its simple to over come that you via things like the Cullen fund should have been putting money aside to survive that hump....

But it gets worse, many BBs got a free education all the way to post-graduate, but BBs voted that out a few years back....now the post-BBs have to not only pay for x2 retirees, pay for more comprehensive and extortionate healthcare for them but also pay off huge debt while trying to save and have kids....

It should be obvious to you, it simply cannot be like that....the next generations simply wont be able to cope with the tax burden, the debt burden, the lack of energy burden and the AGW burden....you will break them.

Yes you paid taxes, but if you look across 50 years it was not sustainable....you were lied to by Pollies...and I bet you didnt question them too hard....and here comes more tax cuts from National...its plain potty...immoral.

regards

@Noeline: "Some Youth of today cannot save because they want an OE, Student loan, the flashest of cars, eat out every night of the week and drink like fish."

Just like the BBs then.....ie its a generalisation and applies just as much to previous generations....OE's, ones I talk to have saved by doing menial jobs to do it...Student loan, something the BBs didnt get stuck with. Flashest of cars, Im surrounded by students, I see lots of 50cc mopeds, bikes, bus use and walking. Flash cars are something some overeseas students have but not many.

"paid for the infracture of this country which the youth are now benefit from. " It has to be replaced, it has a finite life....

"Who will provide housing for those who rent if landlords sell up and get out of the business?"

Real professional landlords and not the property speculators who now infest the housing sector.

regards

W. Kunz Says:
"The BB generation is for years at war against nature and ethic principles of life."
Now thats has to a be a gem
So baby BBs are to be now blamed for the distruction of the envioroment from early Moari days, industrial revolution....
Just so it was the BBs who eventually kicked off all the social change from equal rights for women, Green peace ..the 1st generation in the history of mankind.

Kakapo Says:
"And I think you may be gravely underestimating my age"
Frankly I dont give 2 stuffs how old you are, ones age is not a measure of attitude or maturity.
Hell I know of heaps of BBs still sitting around in pubs and cosi clubs still talking about what they want to do, excuses and blaming others why the havnt, no different to any of the younger generations....and they still live in their 'State Advances ' Homes

I see a great many younger generation who are off their butts doing what the have to..
This whole thing is not about generations waring
Its about those who cant get off their butts blaming those who do get off their butts.
Now if we didnt have so many sitting on their overweight butts then we would not be borrowing, and in such a mess we are...and the health bill will be way down.

Fairfax O - I wasn't thinking BH was a BB, majority of BB will be deceased within next generation (25 years), starting to go to some funerals now. My point is that the following generation won't be at loggerheads as much as some predict because of the inheritance factor, some should do quite nicely if many BB's have all the financial wealth that is being stated . However I do think in the meanwhile that many BB's once 65 yrs, except the really poor, should forgo the national super, that could result in great savings for the younger generation. But I do realise that such is the personal motivation of humans that family trusts etc would be used to offset thatl

If the Gen Ys and some Gen Xs leave NZ because they can't accept paying for the maintainence of the BBs (whatever that may mean in financial/economic sense) then it may be that the Maori and the migrants from other Asian countries will take over the running of this great country and use it for better productive purposes than it is being used now. NZ is not going to sink. Only a section of its populace will sink. Others will fill the gap and may be make better use of it. That will be the generational challenge and transformation that will save NZ.

Steps, I'm not only talking about NZ in my article. Have a closer look, how much damage greed and megalomaniac have done and still doing to nature and so to our children. In my opinion the "BB - generation" has not done particularly well considering all facts.

It's sad that people have been sucked into this 'intergenerational' bickering, due to the error of those delighting in conflict. It's not just here. TV is saturated with programmes which normalise - nay glamourise - competition and conflict. My fear is that the rage propagated and nurtured in places such as these will one day demand blood. Those who peddle this dangerous "intergenerational theft" propaganda will then withdraw, vacant looks on faces, and stammer "What did we say?"

News Flash: the elderly, baby-boomers, generation X, generation Y, children, small babies, and foetuses - we're all just the same. The same the same the same! All traveling the same train; just some seated in carriages slightly nearer the front or the back.

Sure, we have serious problems of economics. Our distorted view of what is considered legitimate employment nowadays is ONE VERY BIG problem. An example: when I was a child, kicking a ball around a rugby field was considered a sport - not a job. And certainly not a job deserved of an obscene level of salary.

Anyway, let's all take a deep breath, and relax to the sound of Cat Stevens' words towards the younger generation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jek6iP6AuAQ

Chris.

P.S. No, I don't fall within the so called 'baby boomer' age bracket.

Yoda mentioned a book called 'Selfish Generation'. I happen to have read that and note how few people here seem to understand that this problem predates baby boomers – it's just that it is becoming more acute as the numbers of elderly rise (according to 'Selfish Generation', Bernard's parents are as guilty as any baby boomer). It is worth pointing out too that younger people would be just the same given the same voting power (interest free student loans are evidence of that).

It has, to date, been socially unacceptable to speak badly of the elderly, and in a conversation I had about this the other day I found that many people do not like to speak of the elderly as anything other than old dears who've worked and saved all their lives and deserve all their goodies. I approve of Bernard raising this subject in the persistent way he has – most people are too afraid of not looking 'nice'. I am sad though, that when I am old, my generation will (deservedly in my view) be hated by younger people. Even those of us who did not vote relentlessly in our own interests at every election.

NZ is extremely generous to the old, and also has some of the worst OECD statistics concerning children. I feel that there is probably a connection. John Key reassuring Grey Power the other day that superannuitants would be more than compensated for any rise in GST was the most sickening sight, and symptomatic of the way that the old misuse their voting power.

Some commentators here think that the baby boomers will pass their wealth down to their children and so there will be no problem. Some baby boomers will indeed pass their wealth down to their already privileged children, but children living in poverty (the ones getting rheumatic fever whose parents cannot afford to take them to the doctor etc) will miss out altogether. It bothers me a great deal that these children have not been mentioned by anyone (as far as I've noticed anyway) in these comments. Does anyone notice? Does anyone care?

Yes, young people will flee this country, but I do wonder in the longer term where they will go, given that the demographics of the developed world are similar everywhere. Will we maybe see a migration of the young from the West to the East (not including China)?

There are, as usual, a couple of older people on here criticising the young for wanting too much. Yes, perhaps there is more materialism than there once was, but I think a big part of that is that consumer goods have become relatively cheap – technology has moved on, after all. A black and white tv was probably just as much once (relative to income) as the best tv is now. I don't suppose any of you older people are deriding yourselves for having an automatic washing machine instead of a copper and washboard. Your attitude to the young is vicious and bitter – that's my children you're talking about, and I don't like it.

For the record, I'm 49.

From the words of the immortal Cat Stevens "from the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen". The great news is that through these blogs and other media, the issues are out there just waiting to be discussed and debated with much passion and emotion.

I take my hat of to Bernard and Dragonfly and to Smokey who can express their view point much clearer then I are able and agree with the like minded that there is an issue here.

Ironically, the intergenerational "war", is largely a issue for the BBer's to address because it is their health care, their legacy and their pensions which are effected the most ~ I can simply uproot and move country.

By, for instance, not means testing there own generation for pension payments they limit the capital available to the working generation x and y, this circle revolves and effects the country's ability to create investment for itself and for future income.

By inflating the value of their houses they indebt the young, tying their hands to a job, instead of freeing them to invest in a business opportunity or life style that will pay a dividend.

Nothing in equals nothing out.

So what do the BBer's think of means testing there fellow journey men?

@WTM, please, please don't leave - who will rent my properties, who will I sell them to? Please, please don't leave.

Indeed, PeterR.

Income Concentration in 2007 Was at Highest Level Since 1928:

http://tinyurl.com/mqclpd

Grotesque Inequality:

http://tinyurl.com/y98fvd6

I agree - if that's your attitude you deserve everything you get. Senial senior citizens are an easy target - you may as well start bullying small children, the disabled and animals while your at it.

Thats true Shorts, how ever, when you live in another country you no longer have a rossie idea of what life should look like, you fend for yourself rather than look out for the country as a whole.

I also agree with you and steps in regards to Justice stepping over the line, although to be honest, now I always go past his comments with out reading them.

W Kunz..........Wholeheartedly agree the BB has stuck the straw in and began the process of sucking it dry.........

But if I may i would point out thats a human condition not just a BB and as the numbers grow sustainability conversley will decline ..... that is inevitable and irreversable unless the human growth factor is removed from the equasion.

For the record I am not a believer that population growth (globaly) is valuable growth and that opinion is at odds with almost every self serving organisation you can lay name to.... from govt's to clergy the mantra is grow grow grow....grow grow grow..ooooh shit there's nothing left to suck...save each other..? then pop! a new Dynasty..

Having said all that I want me some o that free pie that I'd like to believe I contributed to making and anybody who disagrees with that is entitled to do so because in the end if (they ) determine I can't have it then I shall just roll over like every other apathetic citizen in this graaaate Nation of ours and accept it just like you lot did with the GST hike..........A case of the gutless stitching up the gormless...GWYD

My 2c worth is that a fiscal crisis will arrive (like a train - it's already on its way) - looking forward I see an inevitable point where the costs of superannuation and healthcare start to overwhelm the tax base (these two items are growing and expected to grow as part of the economy).

There are a number of responses I think will happen, mostly around reducing the entitlements (eg, lift retirement age, reduce NZ Super as a percentage of the average wage, possibly some light-handed means testing*, reduced quality and quantity of free healthcare, reduction in other benefits, etc), but also possible on the tax side (raised taxes, capital gains and/or significant death taxes).

I'm thinking a slightly slow motion thing - a few nibbles at the edges (ie, some of the above) to try and rectify the Govt budgets, until it all becomes untenable and something drastic has to happen.

I don't, to be honest, see any real winners in the process. The only way I see to avoid it is a magical (mythical?) and substantial increase in NZ's productivity, finding an enormous resource pool, or massive immigration to increase the personal tax base.

* I don't think means testing would be that big a deal, if it was very progressive. NZ Super is hardly generous, and few people would aspire to an NZ Super-only funded lifestyle and hence choose to avoid saving during their lifetime. I don't think means-testing introduces any great moral hazard.

@ctnz
You mean "Mainstream Journalism"- read the News Papers.

Wake up ! We do need urgently major changes in our approach to life and business - mate !
Sharp, competent and provocative/ debatable articles are the best way to lead to changes and actions to a better world.

Walter

The Chairman,

Too true, but lost on almost all.

ctnz,

Do you really think that strongly appealing to a basic emotion like envy in this manner yet at the same time ignoring the many other factors that influenced the past 15 years of credit boom, is the recipe for achieving a meaningful debate of our problems?

Seconded.

To me this thread has proven a disappointing inditement of our culture and our journalism. This article loses Bernard and interest.co.nz much of my respect.

PeterR, I've been reading these columns for some time and I think that if you and ctnz go back you will see he has covered most of the basics in the past. Yes this current article is sensationalism but at the same time it is interest-ing and thought provoking.

Sooner or later Bernard can you create a link so people can load the articles on their facebook pages (similar to youtube lets you do with songs). When this happens hopefully we'll get more input from generation x and y who have left the country and can read what they say about our issues.

Scorpian,

I am not sure that Bernard understands the basics. If he doesn't then I'd be more tolerant.

If he does understand, then he has no excuse for being so destructive.

Allow retirees to transfer their pension to Oz and let them take care of the medical bills.

Leaky buildings ! Obvioulsy rate - and taxpayers are forced to pay billions listening to Bernhard on TVone this morning.

Question to prefessionals:

Here in Kaikoura a big development is planned right on the waterfront (wharf) with Council approval – great !
Who’s liability is it when the complex is damaged/ taken by floodwater under the influence of climate change.
..and how many other private houses, commercial and infrastructure's probably in the hundred’s built in the last few years throughout the country come under the same scenario = council approval/ consent ?

Do taxpayers/ ratepayers pay for the stupidity of councils again pay billions ?

When does our younger generation wake up is my next question and jump from surf- boards into politics ?