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Opinion: Here's 10 reasons why Fitch should downgrade NZ's AA+ rating
By Bernard Hickey 'Second tier' ratings agency Fitch is currently reviewing New Zealand's AA+ foreign currency credit rating. Here's 10 reasons below why it should downgrade New Zealand's rating. Standard and Poor's wimped out. Let's hope Fitch doesn't. We certainly need a lower currency and higher retail interest rates and a credit rating downgrade would probably trigger big moves in both. These would help re-balance our economy away from consumption to production, and away from investing in property to investing in exporting. At the moment we seem locked in a no-man's land of a high currency, low interest rates and a 'deja-vu all over again' feeling that we can go back to the foreign debt fueled spending that got us into this mess. Even Reserve Bank Governor Alan Bollard has begun warning about consumers and homeowners returning to their bad old habits. Unfortunately, his warnings are toothless while he leaves the Official Cash Rate at a record low of 2.5%. His failed warning to foreign exchange markets this week that he may cut the OCR if the New Zealand dollar didn't fall is proof we need something more. We need a credit rating reduction. Here's why Fitch should pull the trigger.
1. Our current account deficit is WAY too high
Some economic apologists for our high debt and our insanely priced property market say that the current account deficit doesn't matter. They argue that there's nothing wrong with foreign investment and foreign lending to fund consumption and investment. They argue that it's all fine because it shows foreign investors have confidence in us and there's nothing wrong with a young country that uses capital well being helped by foreigners. That's true. It's all fine until they lose confidence that we have the ability to keep servicing our debts and paying our dividends to foreign shareholders. Our growth rate is not high either, unlike 'young' countries like China and Brazil. In other words, the current account deficit doesn't matter until does. And it should now. We have been running a current account deficit of more than 8% for near 5 years. When I was a young and thin watcher of the financial markets I was told that anything over 6% is fatal and will turn any self respecting developed country into a 'banana republic'. In theory it is improving, but one look at this chart combined with the signs of recovery in the housing market is reason enough to downgrade us on sight. 2. Our foreign debt has blown out and is accelerating.
Our debt to GDP ratio has blown out by nearly 20 percentage points to 141% in two years. Mull that over. If we keep going at that rate we'll hit over 200% of GDP within 4 years. We managed to control it reasonably well around the 100% mark for 15 years until 2005 when it got out of hand. The problem is we currently spend about 17% of our export receipts on debt servicing and our exports are falling. The debt is not falling. It's actually rising faster and the interest costs of this debt are likely to rise too over the next five years. It's simply not sustainable. Only Hungary and Iceland had higher debt-gdp ratios last year. Hungary received a US$25 billion rescue package from the IMF last year and Iceland....well we all know what happened to Iceland. 3. The fiscal deficit is about to go very pear-shaped Up until now one of New Zealand's two saving graces has been the apparent strength of the government's fiscal position. (The other one is our Australian-backed and strong banks) All through the run up in foreign debt from 2004 to 2009 the government was largely not adding to this debt. That's, of course, important for any rating agency because the sovereign rating is for the government's debt. But that benign outlook has gone up in smoke thanks to a quiet build up in government spending over the last 3 years in particular and the not-so-quiet expansion in the last year as the government spends heavily on infrastructure and various job creation and social welfare projects. This chart shows the underlying budget position once interest payments and dividend receipts are taken out. It shows the underlying deficit is likely to be worse than it was in the early 1990s. The government expects to borrow NZ$50 billion over the next 4 years. That's equivalent to 30% of GDP of borrowing from the government alone. And we're currently not projected to be in a significant surplus until nearly 2020. Britney Spears will be a grandmother by then. 4. Our economy is horribly unbalanced
Over the last 5 years consumers borrowed heavily from overseas (via our banks) to invest in property and to spend up large on holidays, cars, flat screen TVs and renovations. That meant much of the growth in economic activity was focused on the non-tradeable domestic sectors, rather than the tradeable export and import-substitution sectors. We have not produced any net new jobs in exporting in the last decade. This chart is a damning indictment of our economic performance over the last 5 years and is the reason why our debt has blown out. This meant there has been little development of our export sector. Remember, the only way we can service our debts is by earning foreign exchange...or printing money. 5. Our fiscal position will worsen after 2020
Just like a lot of other developed countries, New Zealand has its own bulge of baby-boomers about to hit the pension teat, the hospitals and the retirement homes from around 2015 onwards. These pension and healthcare costs will escalate sharply and neither the government nor the public have saved enough to handle it, particularly given both our health and pension systems are open to all and pay as you go. Either some form of rationing will be required (means-tested access to both pensions and health care) or higher taxes will be needed, both of which will suppress growth and our ability to service our debts. Our longevity rates are rising, our birth rates are falling, immigration is relatively low and we have a long term exodus of the working age groups from New Zealand. The ratio of workers to dependents is likely to hit 1 to 1 by 2020, from 1.5 now and 2.5 only 5 years ago. 6. Our productivity performance is awful
Our ability to increase the amount of GDP per hour worked has been woeful over the last decade, as this chart shows. It is the core driver of our ability to service our foreign debts and grow the economy without inflation. The government has launched a 2025 Taskforce to boost productivity and close the gap with Australia, but any serious reform is utterly dependent on the political will to take some tough decisions. There is little indication these options will be taken. Prime Minister John Key has already ruled out some of the tough options, including a capital gains tax and an extension of the retirement age. 7. Our banks and consumers show no signs of changing Despite a big scare last year, our banks and consumers have fallen back into the same old habits of borrowing overseas to invest in residential property and farming. New Zealand banks lent an extra NZ$545 million to the agriculture sector in June. This was not to expand production or productivity. This was to pay the interest payments on the previous debt taken out with banks. This is capitalising interest via overdrafts. Lending to businesses fell NZ$361 million from May as banks wind back facilities and impose new covenants. They have also left business lending rates at nearly 10% while the OCR fell to 2.5%. Housing lending rose NZ$192 million, thanks to interest rates falling to 6% from close to 10%.
8. Commodity prices are falling and output is flat at best
The New Zealand dollar prices of the commodities we produce have fallen from their peaks and will continue to fall while the rest of the developed Western world goes through an extended period of debt-deleveraging and switching from debt-driven consumption to savings-driven production. The rise in the New Zealand dollar and higher agricultural production costs (largely due to inflated land costs) are causing farmers to stall any growth in dairy output, which is now the dominant export earner. Sheep and beef farmers are doing OK after years of winding back output, although they are now focusing any growth on servicing the dairy sector with runoffs. 9. NZ does not have low enough domestic inflation Non-tradeable inflation, which is the inflation linked to the government, retail, infrastructure, telecommunications, banking and other non-export sectors, has been above 3% for most of the last 7 years and is only now dropping back into the Reserve Bank's 1-3% target band for the entire inflation rate. This is all part of our unbalanced economy. We need higher interest rates and a lower currency to help push this inflation back into line over the longer term. 10. We simply are not saving enough
This chart shows that corporates and banks (it's actually mostly banks) are not saving enough. They're still drawing down on foreign debt and the government is about to join the party. It's not sustainable. If we can't make the tough choices for ourselves, a ratings agency and international investors will have to do it for us.


Keep an eye on tax
Keep an eye on tax receipts, for #3, Bernard. Word over the w/end from one who should know, is that cliff-diving is occurring.
Even better why don't the
Even better why don't the RB simply start selling NZ$ on the open market. The next time the banks need to stump up US$ the RBNZ can help them out with a domestic swap.
Domesticating our debt would be a very wise move.
Bernard, A quick question re
Bernard,
A quick question re Current Account Deficit - it would be interesting to see how much an affect interest rate movements have on the CA deficit. If we are paying out a lot more in interest overseas on mortages than we are receiving via TDs, it stands to reason that historically low rates are making the CA deficit look a lot rosier than would otherwise be the case.
Bernard : Send a copy
Bernard : Send a copy of your blog to Fitch, and to all the others. If they wimp out again, as Std.Poor did, we can all stick it to them, at a later date, when your warnings materialize. And they will. This country " ain't seen nuttin' yet ! " Build your arks, me hearties, there'll be tears from heaven enough to re-irrigate the Canterbury plains, before the looming tempest abates.
Bernard ...you forgot to say...
Bernard ...you forgot to say... Were broke!... and so we get back to whats in it for AUS to help us find our wee way ? Were it not for thier interest,we would already have been downgraded without doubt !! There is a big picture and it's taking shape with momentum.
"In whose interest" is always the question.
So why did Standard and
So why did Standard and Poor's "wimp out"? Could it be JK told them:
11. We still have some state-owned assets left to sell.
The kiwi will keep flying
The kiwi will keep flying against the US$ as the Fed produces more paper money (which is only just starting!) and further debase's the US$. If we want a low NZ$/US$ the only option weve got is to print money to compete with the USA (ie inflate our way out of this hole we are in) or ask the world to drop the US$ as its base currency - the Reserve Bank isnt big enough to stop the this bird mid flight. Go long I say!!!
Bernard, I think you make
Bernard,
I think you make a compelling argument why Fitch needs to lower the...US's...err..I mean NZ's credit rating...
BTW does your savings chart include Kiwisaver or other retirement schemes?
neil c, too right, we
neil c, too right, we can sell the Beehive and Parliament buildings to Beijing so they can add it to their wgtn powergrid. Move the fools and bludgers into a tent and put them up in some converted shipping containers on one of the wharves. Huge savings there.
I think we need to
I think we need to have a joint ANZAC currency, so we don't become an isolated currency that become worthless, with skyrocking inflation. Even better, why not become a state of Australia. That way we can benefit from their economy. The NZ dollar is ONLY higher against the US, which is weak, other currencies we are trading about the same as we have always traded. But lest not forget that we were over 80cents to the US dollar not that long ago, so around the 65c range is about normal. Why have an artifically low dollar, just to benefit the the few exporters we have left, and it will give NZ the false impression that they are making more money than they are, even though the NZ dollar will have less buying power.
I think Bollard should have raised our interest rates, but the downside of that, would have meant that the NZ dollar may have gone up. So to have that same effect, we have to have our credit rating decreased, so our currency isn't as attractive to currency traders, but it makes NZ poorer as a result. We will be paying more interest offshore and losing wealth, and means we are even less attractive to investors.
I think the only way around it was for Bollard to raise rates, otherwise we are stuffed. The last thing NZ needs is a credit rating downgrade, otherwise our standard of living will plumett.
"otherwise our standard of living
"otherwise our standard of living will plumett."
And do we deserve let alone need the standard of living we have?
“The NZ dollar is ONLY
"The NZ dollar is ONLY higher against the US"
Rob you really need to get your facts right. Actual numbers for last five months from www.oanda.com as follows:
3 March 3 August Change
USD 0.49490 0.66220 up 33.8%
EUR 0.39310 0.46460 up 18.2%
GBP 0.35320 0.39620 up 12.2%
AUD 0.78120 0.79230 up 1.4%
JPY 48.2198 62.7313 up 30.1%
You can say that again
You can say that again Bernard, (graphs 4 and 8 alone should cause wailing and gnashing of teeth).
We will all have to work till we drop anyway and using Rob's approach beaver away in yet another hermit kingdom.
With perhaps one more good debt fuelled cycle in prospect - if we are not broke now we will be soon.
And now we even have
And now we even have one of our major trading banks saying our monetary policy needs revising.
"The middle ground "“ if there is one "“ may be changing the Policy Targets Agreement to redefine price stability to include asset prices (i.e. target and average of inflation measures including the CPI, PPI, GNE deflator and house/land prices). Such suggestions will, of course, draw cynical retorts in some quarters, and to those we have two responses: the world has changed, which we need to accept; and consider the other and less palatable alternatives."
http://www.nbnz.co.nz/economics/publications/marketfocus/090803_MarketFo...
Funny how they're not suggesting that the RBNZ look at regulating money supply.
Economists want change to inflation
Economists want change to inflation target
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/2715875/Economists-wants-change-to-infla...
The currency policy rate chart
The currency policy rate chart on your home page tells the story. We have the second highest interest rate in the developed world. RBNZ needs to get the OCR down to 1% or less ASAP. All the funny money would then soon fly our shores and the exchange rate fall significantly as a result. This should address most of the issues you raise.
neil c Says: August 3rd,
neil c Says:
August 3rd, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Rob you really need to get your facts right. Actual numbers for last five months from http://www.oanda.com as follows:
A 15% range of currency volitility is normal in current financial crisis. We were up over 40 pence about a year ago. Both Japan and US are exceptions, and both have major economic problems, but ALL other currencies followed similar trends against those currencies. Both NZ's than the AUS dollar are following similar trends against the US and Yen. If we suffer a downgrade, the NZ dollar will drop againest ALL the other currencies.
NZs current standard of living is not good comapred to other 1st world countries, so no we don't want it to drop. A drop in NZs standard of living, will see the talent that has decided to stay here, move offshore. National was all about improving everyones standard of living and brings NZ wages in line with leading countries, not decreasing it. Chinas standard of living in their new areas, is far superior.
<i>Mike R Says: August 3rd,
Mike R Says:
August 3rd, 2009 at 5:46 pm
The currency policy rate chart on your home page tells the story. We have the second highest interest rate in the developed world. RBNZ needs to get the OCR down to 1% or less ASAP. All the funny money would then soon fly our shores and the exchange rate fall significantly as a result. This should address most of the issues you raise.
But that is unsustainable, and will encourage borrowing, not saving. It also won't help to bring down the $NZ, as the NZ dollar is a commodity currency. It will also fuel inflation in the future. If NZ wants to get out of this hole, we must encourage saving. Perhaps remove tax for personal savings.
A devaluation will not improve
A devaluation will not improve anything. Before you start getting more revenue, all your suppliers put their prices up and your worse off. Then your overseas customers decide they can cut your price because your getting more in NZD!
The bottom line is there is no NZ industry that can compete on price alone. There will always be a cheaper supplier.
They only way out of this is saving or directing all resources to exporting. This would mean import licencing like the 60's and digging up the treasures we have locked up in National Parks.
How about making all interest received tax free and all interest paid (by individuals, companies and trusts) non deductable for tax. Gearing would become very unfashionable!
Well done, Bernard - yes,
Well done, Bernard - yes, the Emperor Has No Clothes is the tale of the NZ economy so all respect to the few brave enough who call it how they see it. Sadly the vast majority are drinking Kool-Aid.
My expectation is that if the culture remains the same (you know, the one where Kiwis 'save' by taking out debt to buy more property) and the charts you show continue to deteriorate we will be forced to seek Aussie statehood (personally not the worst outcome).
Nevertheless I for one hope that Key is pragmatic enough to abandon National's non-interventionism streak and take drastic choices. Even if politically suicidal... some hope.
I am very much in
I am very much in favour of tax breaks on savings, especially in this low inflation environment.
Rob : re your comment
Rob : re your comment at 4.32
But would the Aussies want us?
they might see it a bit like the German reunification, with us as East Germany and them as West Germany
And look what THAT did to THEM!
This cargo cult that some
This cargo cult that some one will save us, OZ, USA, China, RBNZ, Govt, has to stop.
As a small country we have to be smarter, faster and better.
Beside some of our saviours may be too busy saving themselves!
Bernard don’t tell me we
Bernard don't tell me we are on the same team. Your report above is right on the money, well done. Have you been reading these blogs then?
However you don't discuss the key cause of the problem and that's a combination of poor monetary policy and the lack of capital gains tax on property.
Global banks, our property tax regime here and decades of self interest have taken NZ to the brink of disaster way beyond just a credit downgrade. If you keep borrowing to pay more and more for the same asset you drive up inflation and national debt at the same time, that's just a fact. Stupid at a national level but for global banks it's critical as follows.
1) Without property inflation banks would have to lower lending growth targets to figures closer to that of GDP increase i.e. low single digit figures. But with inflation, i.e. if every property in a country increases by 5%+ per annum (tax free) it creates a massive market of willing borrowers to lend into.
2) With Fractional Reserve Banking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking or the ability of a bank to write debt into circulation (effectively printing money) is very real, but you do have to have a market / need to lend into and secure against. An inflating property market requires more and more money to feed the inflating portion and guess what, that protects the banks security. The more it inflates the stronger their security gets.
3) Then you have our monetary policy targeting only price stability. Stability of what you may well ask? As if 1 & 2 above didn't give the banks what they want this is the icing on the cake. As they write debt into circulation, causing property inflation (too much money chasing the same assets) and the knock on effect to the CPI then the OCR goes up and just like magic the exchange rate follows. The foreign banks take the higher and increasing interest rates and get the exchange rate gain as well.
4) Then you add our tiny economy to the equation giving the banks the ability to manipulate the exchange rate on a daily basis. Our dollar was traded 118 times our GDP the second highest (of 20) we recorded, Australia 56, Korea 12. "That carry trade is a problem", these little housewives in Japan can spot this FX opportunity from their kitchens all by themselves!
Would you not describe this as the perfect storm Bernard?
Strong banking sector? Try a totally in control banking sector. The top 4 banks make more money than the rest of the NZX 50 put together.
John Key says there is no need to have an enquiry into banking practices here, well I have to disagree. But as he was an FX trader (all be it a very senior one) until 2001 www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1375215/John-Key so I guess he would know what makes a productive economy work.
Re: the point about the
Re: the point about the Aussies 'wanting' us.
The genius of having the Aussies own our banking sytem is that they have absolutely no choice but to bail us out if we fail Iceland-style, the alternative would be the collapse of their own banking system.
We sure showed them...
A very enlightening peice Bernard,
A very enlightening peice Bernard, pretty much sums up what I have been alerting people to for quite sometime now, if they bothered to read it. Sadly you still offer an "old world" solution that will bring emmense pain to the wrong people and still leave flush the scamsters who caused it all.
Goodluck all, Im off out back on that hamster wheel. Back Wednesday evening and will present my evidence to support above statement then.
Take heart everyone. The global
Take heart everyone. The global solution to debt, inflation, deflation, trade and just about everything else is currently in the "execution phase". The human race itself has become unsustainable, despite ETF and Cap and Trade efforts. The elites of this world know it. The lights went on when more people died from the 1918 flu than the Great War. The answer lies in the vials of vaccine being incubated as this is being written... the vaccine that John Keys says MPs won't be getting because they are not essential enough.
Bernards' above article should be
Bernards' above article should be on the front page of the Herald..... Those charts are Brutal... ( Bernard...why don't u get the herald to print this..??? )
10 Reasons for far more than a Fitches downgrade.....
The country almost needs a referendum on what we are prepared to do to turn things around .....
Otherwise..politically ..there will be no change until we have "smashed"... ( like California).
We can't be that far away from a point of .. "No- return".
Fonterra and the Farming sector reminds me of the Naive, Heady days of the mid eighties.... We were going to become the "Singapore" of the South Pacific...!!! ( yeah right)
I put the directors and Norgate in the same class as the failed Directors of those high flying companies in the 80s'....
How on earth could they have made such a mess of things.....
Selwyn In the root cause
Selwyn
In the root cause you called it ..poor monetary policy....see it's all in the hill you stand on... I think it's geared monetary policy...because at times it has defied explanation and yet has brought sighs of relief to "the Market" KNOWING the dog was toothless.
We've all been saying similar things because the numbers for the last few years have been there for anyone who cared too look.but props to you for banging the drum!
Expat!! I think your closer to the truth than you know,"in whose interest"is a reasonable and logical line of thought when, the actions taken by the RBNZ over the last few quarters appear counter-productive or at least hamstrung by other influences.
While I'm not ready to throw my lot in with the seventh state therory, there is a strong case that Aus would prefer a one economy union (without the welfare baggage) and the rhetoric from those that "Matter" is getting louder.
You could argue that talk's cheap, but as an overview I see us as being softened up for some REAL changes, and after all "diplomacy is the art of saying nice wee doggy,untill you can pick up a big stick"
Without doubt Bolly knows way more than we do because he is in a need to know position, so all we can reasonably do is look at his record, calculate what that suggests, and make a reasoned assumption. Mine is that he is under direction albeit unwillingly to serve the interests of the greater good, and "whose interests " might they be.
P.S. NevilleWC... no one here suggesting they(US> AUS>JAP>)would rescue us that would just be a byproduct of serving/protecting thier own interests.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124932535969202247.html Accordin
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124932535969202247.html
According to Moody's...
"Countries have had much of their capacity to absorb shocks eroded as deficits have expanded, and the fiscal recovery from the "hangover" caused by the credit bubble could last another three to five years, she said. But the ratings firm said it downgrades a rating only when the balance sheet and economic model are permanently weakened."
DC. ........But the ratings firm
DC. ........But the ratings firm said it downgrades a rating only when the balance sheet and economic model are permanently weakened."
Therefore... the downgrade is permanent without reprieve.?
the current account deficit is
the current account deficit is primarily a deficit on investment income. we don,t need or deserve a downgrade. with lower offshore interest rates this deficit could contract sharply.we should have kept control of the most long run profitable business in nz, banking.also the land speculators in rural nz with a bit of dairying on the side don,t need bailing out because they paid too much for farm conversion land funded by debt at the top of the cycle.the dollar is going up against the u.s. because they are a cot case, just like the u.k.dairy prices are also expected to rise, if they don,t they,ll need to get out of dairying and back into forestry, oops they cut all the trees down.
Robt.b I susgest you read
Robt.b I susgest you read a little wider. Life is not as neat and tidy as you'd like it to be.
Why is NZD traded 118 times GDP, Australia 56 and Korea 12. Second highest traded currency of the 20 PEC measured. Answer that one and you on the way to understanding what is really happening right now!
Bernard, yet another overtly and
Bernard, yet another overtly and unnecessarily negative article. I'm surprised you get out of bed in the morning when you believe such apocalyptic things are necessary and will happen soon!
Let's be realistic, since the dollar floated "some" people have predicted that our current account deficit would cause a massive currency devaluation - they are still waiting!
Even if the world decides to stop lending us money (and why would they? - we aren't a default risk and we're a big commodity producer (the world need's food and timber!)), so even then a currency correction would simply force a cut in consumption of imported goods and at the same time boost the value of exports quickly turning our current account into surplus. Hence a self-correcting problem.
Bernard, you give the impression that every country should run a current account surplus, well the reality is, that by definition not everyone can have a surplus and unfortunately for your theory the Japan's of the world will continue to find the New Zealand's of the world to lend to.
Clearly an equilibrium has developed with the current account in deficit, maybe it deviated a little too far south during the credit expansion of 2003-2007 but it would seem more likely to quietly correct itself than explode in a financial meltdown that you (Bernard) seem to be eagerly anticipating!
I'm not going to comment on all your points, but what a load of baloney point 2 is. Linearly extrapolating a volatile series need I say more.
What would be interesting to see is: what contribution Australia makes to our current account position? You would expect a large negative contribution given the Australian ownership of so many of our major companies - given our unique relationship with Australia should we be comparing our current account with other countries excluding that contribution?
Bernard, I know you've got a chip on your shoulder about property but I think it's actually a sequoia!! (A fully grown one that is!). Insanely priced property?? Haven't you looked at Sydney, Melbourne, LA, San Francisco, NY, London, Tokyo.....
...it's just really hard to comprehend your world view. You seem to advocate low CPI inflation, negative real house price inflation and real interest rates of 6, 7 maybe 8% for term deposits. Real interest rates at those levels are a huge return for no risk and a massive disincentive for productive investment.
In all likelihood the reverse of what you would like to see happen will happen. Ever increasing global wealth and an ageing western population will drive down real returns as more capital moves to low risk investments. Inevitably asset prices will rise as yields fall - so exposure to equities and property will be a better bet than your favoured term deposits.
roelof Says: August 4th, 2009
roelof Says:
August 4th, 2009 at 8:43 am
Bernards' above article should be on the front page of the Herald"¦.. Those charts are Brutal"¦ ( Bernard"¦why don't u get the herald to print this..??? )
10 Reasons for far more than a Fitches downgrade"¦..
Well I wish you luck in getting it there (Front Page). But I will pay 50% of the cost of a full page add in the Herald if someone wants to match it.
The issue is we need a enquiry into Monetary Policy, Banking Behavior, Credit Creation and in my opinion issues around protecting our Economic Sovereignty.
John Wally if you're on line, will NZMEA match my 50% to get Bernard's data published in the Herald along with a call for a 1956 style Royal Commission .
Labours enquiry isn't going far enough. By the way did we all know that the speaker has prohibited Labour from using parliamentary buildings for the enquiry. Buildings that have been used by PR firms for parties. I think this smells and needs some public attention.
I didn't think about it before but an enquiry into banking will put John Keys background under the spot light and my guess is he wouldn't welcome that so its been well and truly shut down.
Chris J...Bernard is right on
Chris J...Bernard is right on the money. Time will tell.
Worth a discussion Selwyn. Are
Worth a discussion Selwyn. Are you up for it Bernard?
We are currently working on something that I hope Bernard will post here and that should add an extra dimension.
I am interested to see what sort of comment that draws out.
We agree that this debate needs to be opened up to more people.
Chris-J said.....Let’s be realistic, since
Chris-J said.....Let's be realistic, since the dollar floated "some" people have predicted that our current account deficit would cause a massive currency devaluation - they are still waiting!
I say..
Whoo! badly researched................. how long do YOU think the dollar has been floated for and can you give an account for massive fluctuations over that period
Chris-J said.......... Even if the world decides to stop lending us money (and why would they? - we aren't a default risk and we're a big commodity producer (the world need's food and timber!)), so even then a currency correction would simply force a cut in consumption of imported goods and at the same time boost the value of exports quickly turning our current account into surplus. Hence a self-correcting problem.
I say..
Sheeat mate your a genius...take that to Bolly's office and he'll either hire you on the spot or ask how the fu.. you got in there.( I suspect the latter)
My giggle of the week thus far.......Chris-J said... we aren't a default risk and we're a big commodity producer
Chris-J....... Do you know T.A. do ya huh?
Selwyn : Labour still labour
Selwyn : Labour still labour under the delusion that they are the Gumnut. They are not. And this " enquiry " is a pile of hot air. They had 9 years in power. Why so much grand-standing now ? The financial industry cost retirees several billion dollars of savings, savings they can ill afford to lose. Labour sat on their hands and did nothing, all the while. Their enquiry is nothing more than standing on a mountain top, and peeing into the wind !
John Looking forward to whatever
John
Looking forward to whatever you send us. We'll pop it up for a debate.
FYI there's a useful rebuttal to this over at Matt Nolan's TVHE. I've rebutted the rebuttal and Matt has responded. Good fun and hopefully useful.
http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/08/04/against-the-10-reasons-for-fitch-downgr...
cheers
Bernard
....."The issue is we need
....."The issue is we need a enquiry into Monetary Policy, Banking Behavior, Credit Creation and in my opinion issues around protecting our Economic Sovereignty. ...."
Totally agree with you Selwyn....
Roger I am not supporting
Roger I am not supporting what the last government did not do and did not at the time by the way. I am looking for a way forward and this is a small spot light opportunity for the country to see some of what's going on behind closed doors (firewalls).
If banks lent with the same vigor to productive enterprise as they do to inflating assets we would all have better things to do but they haven't and don't. So Roger put in your submission and we will all see what we will see.
Selwyn : That's cool. I
Selwyn : That's cool. I just wish to alert the Labour party to the fact that it is illegal to "man-handle one's person" in public. 'Cos that is pretty much all that Goffy and David Cunliffe are doing. ( not condoning the ineptitude of English/Key for that matter )
Here's my submission : Lobby the Nat. Gumnut to enact policies that encourage productive enterprise and that discourage consumption. And tell them to get their greedy little fingers out of their expense accounts, and to get on with the job we pay them to do, and to do it now !
Roger Yeah and it's in
Roger
Yeah and it's in those policies (Nat or Lab) that the issues will arise..... What Monetary policy, targeting what outcomes? CGT on what and why? a DFC type bank or could you re-capitalize Kiwi rather than selling it off? and are we happy that the top 4 banks make more profit (in part from Fractional Reserve Banking practices) than the rest of the NZX 50, while having just a few negatives like (tax avoidance, inflating the countries assets, FX manipulation, Break fees, Margins etc etc.
You can't blame a bank for being a bank so the problem rests (today) with English and Key but one of the issues embedded on our problems is to gain an appropriate level of control over banking behavior. To do that we can a) regulate and that's not my pick or b) remove the drivers for manipulation.
I just read the blog
I just read the blog by Matt Nolan ...( from Bernards link above)....
Gosh... Talk about getting lost in detail....
He said:
2.Furthermore, a country never needs to be a net saver. As long as we have positive nominal GDP growth we can sustain a growing stock of debt forever.....
I find that hard to understand....
Where has common sense gone...???
We had a current acct deficit of over $16 billion dollars ( end of march)
That means we are living beyond our means....
That means we had/have been selling our "silver ware ".... and bits of our "land" to live beyond our means.
When you see the increasing invisibles component of the deficit ..... you see the results of selling our assets.... REAL wealth and Capital LEAVING NZ...
And here we have an economist saying that it can go on for ever..????? ( implying that it not a problem)
How on earth can this go on for ever..???
I find it incredible that an econimist does not see this as a serious issue.
Sure , I can see that nominal GDP growth keeps the game going.... but it doesn't change the reality of debt.......
And if that growth in debt is exponential...it can creep along and then then at some point it goes parabolic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY ( see DR Bartlett)
AND, sure, nominal GDP growth is as simple as .....increasing money supply...(which is the invisible tax)
Roelof - Good Video [all
Roelof - Good Video [all 8], So many people are confused into thinking the Future, is a linear progression of the past.
It’s not the place for
It's not the place for this post but"¦"¦"¦if you wonder why CGT is being blocked"¦"¦
Look what twats we have in Wellington that think it's okay to dip and dip again into the tax payers' pockets.
1) get tax payer funding to pay for that small flat
2) rent it to another MP and take the rent
3) as it's now a rental they can claim the losses against their incomes
4) now claim more tax payer money on rent in another dwelling
5) with no CGT this means even when the properties are sold any gain is tax free on top of the reduced tax on the salaries
As bad as that is, I hope that it's no more organized than that. I.e. MP A) and MP B) both buy an house and rent it to the other so they can claim the operating losses against their incomes then I think they should be hauled up before the privileges committee.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Selwyn, Thats exactly what i
Selwyn,
Thats exactly what i fortold last week.
But as usual no one believes me until its too late.
Goodnight NZ I'm off to Bed !
The asset tax haven, or
The asset tax haven, or the subsidy for the undeserving that got away, is looking increasing unsustainable. It there any site more pitiful and simultaneously more infuriating than a politician caught with hands in the till trying to defend THEIR entitlements.
You started it Selwyn...:) .......
You started it Selwyn...:) ....... I'll just add
I was REALLY disappointed to hear that Roger Douglas used his "entitlement" to go visit his grandchildren in Gt Britian.... considering the "global crisis"....and the problems in NZ... and his calls for "belt tightening"...
He has lost any kind of moral highground he might have had...and has tarred himself with the same brush as the rest of the MPs'....
He is a spent force.... its' a shame.
Christov Maybe best for you
Christov
Maybe best for you to do your own research before dismissing the facts!!
FYI: The dollar was floated 4 March 1985. Since then the US dollar has traded in a band between just under US40c to about US80c mainly dependent on the strength of the US dollar - this compares to the kiwi being almost US$1.50 in 1973.
The current account deficit has been around since before the kiwi floated and commentators have declared that it will cause massive devaluation ever since then BUT IT HASN'T!!
It certainly wouldn't be any surprise to Alan Bollard that the problem will be self-correcting, so although I'm right (and you and Bernard are wrong!) Alan won't be hiring won't be hiring me! (I make more in the private sector anyway!).
Here's a link to a report by Don Brash - read page 15:
www.rbnz.govt.nz/monpol/About/economy.pdf
"So, at one level, the system is self-correcting and therefore
the problem may not matter. Economist Milton Friedman
has argued that the world would be a better place if nations
didn't know the state of their current accounts, because
too often concerns about current account deficits lead to
mistaken policy reactions."
Christov, the irony of your post does make me laugh.
Anyway by T.A, I assume you mean Tony Alexander, and yes he is a pretty good bloke.
I'll offer one proviso that Tony makes too, that the current account may cause a problem at sometime, in the future, but who knows when (and since the problem is self-correcting it doesn't really matter if or when it might happen!).
Chris J... You say that
Chris J...
You say that the Current acct deficit has been around for a very long time...
Then you that it is "self correcting"...????
Then you say it doesn't matter..
My understanding ( economics ) is that the self correcting mechanism is the exchange rate...
BUT for 24 yrs we have had current acct deficits.... and there has been no self correction..... how come....????
A really good book that addresses this contradiction is ... "the Dollar Crisis"... by Richard Duncan.
Chris_J........Enjoyed your response and appreciated
Chris_J........Enjoyed your response and appreciated your input as bereft of quotable stats as it was .
Chris_J said.....FYI: The dollar was floated 4 March 1985. Since then the US dollar has traded in a band between just under US40c to about US80c mainly dependent on the strength of the US dollar - this compares to the kiwi being almost US$1.50 in 1973.
I say... I will endevor to research part of this statement(as most is a given) in particular the" mainly dependent on the strength of the US dollar " bit,.. as thats a big broom or could it be shovel your pushing there, it's the easy answer but would it stand scrutiny...we'll see yes.
Chris_J says.....this compares to the kiwi being almost US$1.50 in 1973
I say .... no argument there and don't see why you brought it up..?
I might add Muldoon directed two major currency corrections in the late seventies and try to drag the 85 float as a direct consequence.... but lets stay with the point eh?
Chris your honesty in regards to T.A. is well recieved and in no way do I seek to denergrade his character (cheeky posts aside ) as I'm sure he firmly believes the mantra he chants, but I repeat " objective commentary while having vested interests are paradoxical to say the least"
P.S. your spot on with the irony , there's no shortage and we all need a good laugh!!
On a serious note SELWYN your political leanings aside some ripping posts being laid out by you and I believe worth the effort !! your objectivity smacks of sincerity and makes the site all the more enjoyable!! TA 4 that.
roelof ..nice post great timing!!
Christov thanks, I am flattered,
Christov thanks, I am flattered, but can I set the record straight on political leanings.
I have voted for Right more than Left and have also voted for the Greens in one election. I support the party that has the best policies at the time to address the problems of that time. I don't get it right all the time but that's life and party politics means compromise.
However I have deeply engrained sense of justice that drives my thinking and so to that extent I can understand why some see me as left, (despite running multiple businesses).
I want people to be appropriately rewarded for risk and productive endeavor (right thinking) but I don't believe that comes without restrictions to protect innocent people from exploitation (left thinking).
The best example of this conflict for me, are our tax laws on property. I don't see why someone who invests in property should be able to claim it against their PAYE and not pay CGT when they sell it. They should.
Property speculators put a tax burden on others (we have to fund their PAYE deductions) for their investment decision and that's just plain wrong. Even worse when it's done by our politicians as we now see.
I am driving for a productive economy because it's what we need as a country not because it will make me wealthy but because it will make the nation wealthy and give our children strategic choices they don't have today. If acting in the interests of the Nation (what I'm trying to do) makes me look LEFT then I hope we all look LEFT at some stage.
Selwyn...............Amen to that.
Selwyn...............Amen to that.
I am coming back to
I am coming back to this first opportunity.
Meantime, from quick glance, I would like to know what Chris_J does for a crust and which learning institutions he has attended?
I will have a wild quess that Victoria University School of Economics and Finance might be in there somewhere?
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