Malcolm
I'm not sure the EU or the Euro is evil. But I'm no fan of the euro. It pushes too many square pegs into round holes.
It's a good lesson for those wanting New Zealand to adopt the Australian dollar as a combined currency.
Check out the Australian dollar/NZ dollar cross in this chart series to see how we don't track each other much at all
http://www.interest.co.nz/charts/gallery4-20.asp

cheers
Bernard

Bernard - probably takes a Pom to understand just what the EU is up to. The damage it has done to Britain is unimaginable! (not to mention the damage to NZ - interesting how you have not run a surplus on the current account since 1973, when Britain entered the then European Economic Community) As regards the Euro it is, of course, not really a currency at all. It is effectively a political expedient designed to rob member states of the last vestiges of their sovereignty. As Baron Nathan Mayer Rothschild once put it: "I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire, ... The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire. And I control the money supply." Thus far Britain has not entered the Euro. Yet one could powerfully argue that it too has been deliberately 'hyper-geared' - in advance of being busted - so it will have to embrace the Euro at a derisory rate of exchange some time hence.

Wally, one of the consequences of the EU. As I mentioned to Bernard, New Zealand has not run a surplus on the current account since 1973 - when Edward Heath betrayed both the British people and our dear Kiwi friends. Now you are reduced to selling off the family silver to try and offset all those plasma screen TVs, second-hand imported cars, and squandered capital used to bid up house prices!

Also rumors that a large corporate farmer is desperately trying to roll over a $80,000,000 loan (I like all the zeros) they too may have to sell to China. The Apple growers are really in trouble especially Organic growers. Grape growers are starring down the abyss,beef prices are back to old levels,$ is strong going to be a very tough year for many.Sheep is on a roll because of the strong Euro to UK Pound,could end any time. Dairy looks to be in for a hungry decade. I agree our wealth was built on access to the UK,it gave us a false sense of wealth and we still have not faced reality. Maybe we never will

Hearing that the Chinese are being very active Im thinking they may have purchased Carters Forestry - Dairy Stuff up. Hear they are looking for more,and also a corner stake in Fonterra?

from the NZ herald,why bother with the NBR anymore
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=1058...

Andrewj said: "I agree our wealth was built on access to the UK,it gave us a false sense of wealth and we still have not faced reality".

Andrew, I think this is far more important than most people realise - especially those political buffoons who go on about returning us to the top of the OECD. New Zealand became 'rich' and progressively developed all sorts of liabilities - particularly in terms of welfare - out of its unique relationship with Britain. The fact, however unpalatable, is that this country has never recovered from Britain's entry into the EU and, as you suggest, probably never will.

"There is a danger that people treat this recession as viral, something that we suffer through then can shake off and carry on as before."

"It is much more like a first heart attack, a serious wake-up call to change our ways on a sustained basis, or the next shock will be much worse."

That sums up the situation very well.

The populace at large, I think, believe that they are totally immune to having to make the necessary changes to their lifestyles. Which makes me mad as farmers and businessess are being constantly reminded by bureauracrats and politicians that they have to adapt to change.

"In the midst of prosperity the mind is elated, and in prosperity a man forgets himself; in hardship he is forced to reflect on himself, even though he be unwilling. In prosperity a man often destroys the good he has done; amidst difficulties he often repairs what he long since did in the way of wickedness". (King Alfred the Great: 849 - 899AD)

Try? Do or do not. There is no "try". (Yoda)

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." Bob Dylan.

On a more serious note I mentioned property rights earlier. In consideration of this I understand that a major 'Chinese buy-up' of dairy farms is occurring. Perhaps more learned posters than myself can opine on this matter. If it comes to a choice between the property rights of Kiwis (e.g. the people of Christchurch over water) - or the interests of a Chinese consortium - to whom will the likes of Mr Key and Mr English defer? Moreover, some time hence, might we see Chinese 'security forces' invited into New Zealand to assist with issues of order? Don't laugh - because this is exactly the scenario that threatens within the EU if a pan European defense force emerges as planned. Natives restless in London - send in EU armed forces selected from a 'non-sympathetic' domicile. Exactly what happened during the Roman occupation and the Iceni uprising. History may not repeat but it sure does rhyme!

Malcolm. How much do you think Beijing would pay for the right to a naval base on the Chathams?

Wally... Is'nt Fiji in the process of out bidding us?

I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords - Kent Brockman

Instead of scapegoating, chaps and chapesses, and indulging our monkey genes, it is more to the point to accept that we have all in some way cheerfully lived an unsustainable lifestyle, using OPM.

Now, the bill is falling due.

And, as net debtors, we don't have the luxury of many choices. Because choices are for creditors....

So no amount of arm-waving aboot 'sovereignty' and chanting 'We don' need your feelthy money', alters this situation.

Those who have the gold, make the rules. Just ask Goldman 'Giant Vampire Squid' Sachs....

Looks like China is finally making good on its noises to push for a new global reserve currency. I guess it's a bit difficult to do anything about it whilst you're holding trillions of dollars in the currency you're complaining about.

So now they're going to buy pretty much everything in sight at exactly the time when virtually everything is for sale, get rid of all those dollars and then get serious about a new reserve currency.

The US could be in trouble if it doesn't pull finger, and if we're not careful NZ is going to be snapped up cheap by a nation not exactly known for its clean, green, environmentally friendly and sustainable way of doing things.

Agree, Malc. Consequences beckon. My motive in warning not to indulge in scapegoating etc was simply to name the process - because as you can see from other threads (notably the bank inquiry one), the gathering of a mob and issuing of torches and pitchforks proceeds apace.

For a leetle amusement, the full quote, courtesy Jonah Goldberg over at National Review, runs like this, from the 'Deep Space Homer' episode:

Kent:

"Ladies and gentlemen, uh, we've just lost the picture, but what we've seen speaks for itself. The Corvair spacecraft has apparently been taken over "” 'conquered' if you will "” by a master race of giant space ants. It's difficult to tell from this vantage point whether they will consume the captive earth men or merely enslave them. One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves."

As Bernard would say, I don't have any underground sugar caves.....

Waymad, one of the themes I have written on is the coming of the mob. Ultimately, of course, the fault lies with ourselves for insisting on a standard of living that we have not earned. You are right - where were the protesters over the banks when everything was leveraging upwards? Its only when the music (bread and circuses) stops that the mob turns nasty. Before that they were congratulating themselves on being so prescient in 'hyper-gearing' their finances and buying all those crummy rentals. Got asked some years ago, when I was on holiday in England, what I thought about the long-term prospects for New Zealand. The 'Zimbabwe of the South Pacific' was my immediate response - I do hope I am proved wrong because this really is a great country to live in!

How right you were, Malcolm. Zimbabwe was one of the most wonderful countries in the world to live. Mind you, it was called Rhodesia, then, and I am sure my comment will not sit well with all. Maybe it was as New Zealand was in the '50's when the Minister of Labour knew the individual names of all the unemployed here. Times change, let's hope the future for us all here, now, is for the better and does not follow in the footsteps of Mugabe.

Mouse, many Kiwis work extremely hard - and are highly innovative to boot. This is just like their Pommy counterparts. The tragedy is that there is not enough of them - and even the hardworking are forced to divert absurd proportions of their income to taxation, levies, and interest payments etc. One of the shocking possibilities (I guess just like Zimbabwe) is that the need to assuage the mob will deliver horrific inflation - thus wiping out the savings etc of the frugal. Incidentally, isn't Zimbabwe receiving a lot of 'investment' from China. Maybe Harriet can advise us. Obviously the benefits there have been enormous!

The cheese was flogged off a long time ago mouse, unfortunately whther you participated or not, it has been consumed.

One fears the next generation(s) wont pay for it, leaving only the chinese or insect overlords to step in.

Regardless, whoever is left working, will essentially be a slave to supporting the retired and crippling national debt repayments.

(Unless the immigration floodgates are flung open)

Ron Paul, on Credit Debt etc 21/07/09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSRvnXtrmtE

mouse, don't you mean 'Squeak' ?

Mouse - someone who understands what inflation is! Too many pieces of paper calling themselves dollars chasing insufficient cheese.

Andrewj you are right about the China buying into NZ dairy, however, they are no mugs and are having a hard time making the $ stack up. They keep asking for extensions on due diligence on deals that our banks think are done!

SteveL
Interesting,I take it, like me they like to think that one day you may make a profit,no one works as hard as a Kiwi farmer for so little pay except perhaps the Chinese. The debate we missed was do we want foreigners supporting our land prices and keeping Kiwis out. I would have thought that such an important debate should have been in the election manifesto. I mean we already have 1 in 4 of us born somewhere else it, apparently isnt enough so now we need more foreign ownership. Where will it start to work ,1 in 2 of us born somewhere else. I thik its time we faced the real monster in the cupboard.
We only have so much resource,to me the more we divide this resource the poorer we will be. Selling it off such as Telecom I dont see as a success but if you fail first time just do it more and bigger
These farms would be sold Chinese or not, what are they going to deliver that a Kiwi farmer with energy and the removal of the huge capital hurdle would give us anyway?
We know Fonterra is broke, so the Chinese are the likely buyers,this is a big change for every Kiwi and I dont see any benefit except to extract some greedy people from some poor decision making.

Mouse
As soon as governments regulate it, they that decide who the winners and losers will be. And in all cases the winners are the special interest groups favoured by the politicians in power.

The losers are the special interest groups not favoured. But typically their day will come when their politician friends are in power.

The terminal losers, of course, are individuals that are forced to accept the rules decided upon by a small band of corrupt, corrupted and corruptible political and special interest groups.

LATVIA.

I live there and have since independence. It's a tiny place with one city and a lot of trees and lakes. The Latvians run a strange economy but there is no reason to feel that the Russians might do better for the country than the EU. The Russians are still the enemy. Every Latvian family has had members in Siberia. The Russians are still horrible neighbors. The problem is more to do with Swedish and German banks making euro loans at low interest rates than any problem with the EU as such. This fueled a great big party. The same happened in Lithuania and Estonia ( and Poland and Slovinia and Slovakia etc etc) It also happened in Iceland if one wants to remember back a few months. It also happened in Spain and etc etc

There is no lesson in Latvia for the rest of Europe that are not already factored in. And there is no lesson for NZ. Full Stop.