Post RSS Feed 
Podcast Feed
BNZ, Kiwibank hike deposit rates as competition for local funds heats up
December 23rd, 2009BNZ and Kiwibank have hiked some longer term deposit rates as competition between banks for local funds heats up heading into the summer. See and compare all deposit rates offered in New Zealand for terms less than one year here, and for terms one year and greater here.
Competition for local funds has been escalating in recent months following new Reserve Bank prudential liquidity guidelines at the end of June requiring banks to raise more funds from New Zealand depositors and for longer terms. This has put pressure on institutions such as building societies and finance companies, which fund themselves entirely from local deposits, and has led to upward pressure on deposit rates.
Earlier in the week, Kiwibank raised its three to five year deposit rates by 25 bps, with its five year rate moving up to 6.75%, equal to the top bank offers for the term.
Kiwibank raised its one year special deposit rate from 5% to 5.2% and raised the minimum deposit requirement from NZ$5,000 to NZ$10,000. This follows a similar move by Westpac last week. Kiwibank also cut its five month deposit rate by 10 bps to 4.5%.
BNZ introduced a new 18 month special rate of 5.4% with a minimum deposit of NZ$10,000. This is equal to a rate offered by National Bank.
Nelson Building Society (NBS) increased a number of its deposit rates. Although it cut its three month rate by 65 bps to 4.1%, it raised its nine month rate by 15 bps to 5.15% to be equal to CBS Canterbury’s new nine month rate. NBS and CBS Canterbury also raised their one to three year deposit rates by between 5 and 25 bps.
Financial services co-op PSIS raised its 18 month to 5 year deposit rates by between 25 and 75 bps. Its new five year rate is 6.75%, equal to the top bank offers. PSIS also increased its one year special rate with interest paid at maturity and a minimum deposit of NZ$5,000 by 10 bps to 5.25%.
Meanwhile, RaboPlus has cut its longer term deposit rates by between 10 and 20 basis points (bps). Rabo cut its one to five year deposit rates. It generally moves its rates in lock-step with wholesale interest rates.
See and compare all deposit rates offered in New Zealand for terms less than one year here, and for terms one year and greater here.
Tags: CBS Canterbury, Interest Rates, Kiwibank, Nelson Building Society, Prudential liquidity, PSIS, Raboplus, RBNZ, Reserve Bank of New Zealand, term deposit rates
You may also like to read:
Loading ...
December 28th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Here is what Kiwibank should be doing as a public service to the nation, but sadly John Key, the central banker on sabatical will have destroyed within his first political term any hope of it ever again acting in the wider national interest. The private central bankers now have their hooks into via wholesale money market lending and it being a means of distribution for our own public credit money supply is being reduced by branch closures, because we are being told we cant afford any other alternative;
“Let’s take a $100,000 mortgage, for example. With a 30-year fixed rate 5.5% mortgage, your monthly payment is $567.79 and you will pay $104,404.40 in interest on that loan.
With a 2% fixed rate 15-year mortgage, your payment would be $643.51, the total interest would be only $15,831.80 – and the mortgage would be paid 15 years sooner! You save 88,572.60 in interest. If you then make 15 years of payments to yourself with 5% interest from the Bank of the State of Florida, you will have more than $160,000 after taxes in your account—just by having your mortgage from the Bank of the State of Florida.”
http://www.khavariforgovernor.com/bankofflorida.html
“There are two critical problems with this process.
First, when the banking cartel loans money, only the principal gets created, not the interest. This is why the overall indebtedness of the economy ($31 trillion at present) is always several times greater than even the most liberal estimate of the money supply ($8.5 trillion at present). Granted, if no one borrowed, there would be no interest to pay; but there would also be no money supply, and thus no economy.
Second, because all money is created as a loan, whenever the principal of a loan is paid back, the money supply is reduced by that amount.”
http://www.progress.org/reform21.htm
Check out this chart in support of above article page 7 on pdf
http://visar.csustan.edu/aaba/McNeill2009.pdf
December 28th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
“Granted, if no one borrowed, there would be no interest to pay; but there would also be no money supply, and thus no economy.”…rubbish…
December 28th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Here is what Kiwibank should be doing as a public service to the nation …
Buggering off to begin the process of allowing a free market for a free people.
(The banking conspiracy paranoia seems to be heading for some type of crescendo this Christmas Iain.)
December 28th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Remember , Mark , that Jelly Key promised not to touch Jim Anderton’s ” baby ” . Nor Peter Dunne’s , the ” Family Commission ” . Oh yeah , and we can’t tinker with Michael Cullen’s offspring , the WFF and Int.Free.Student.Loans , even though they’ve morphed into the hellish seeds of ” Chucky ” . ……… . Ain’t MMP a brilliant system .
December 28th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
That’s the pool of effluent in which all the votes can be found…so in jumped John and there he will stay to the next election day.
December 28th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Wally you said ““Granted, if no one borrowed, there would be no interest to pay; but there would also be no money supply, and thus no economy.”…rubbish…”
I am afraid I will be taking my lessons from those on the inside who admit that most every dollar in circulation entered circulation as a compound interest bearing loan owed to the multilayered banking system;
In a hearing held on September 30, 1941 in the House Committee on Banking and Currency, then-Chairman of the Federal Reserve (Mariner S. Eccles) said:
“That is what our money system is. If there were no debts in our money system, there wouldn’t be any money.”
Indeed, Robert H. Hemphill, Credit Manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, said:
“If all the bank loans were paid, no one could have a bank deposit, and there would not be a dollar of coin or currency in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial Banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the Banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is. It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon.”
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/10/banks-create-money-out-of-thin-air-not.html
Mark my poor deluded friend, rebutt this in some plausable manner if you will;
“Greater attention to defining “free markets” might have avoided their current degeneration into mere forms of kleptocracy falsely promoted under the banner of freedom. Better yet, instead of misusing the term FREE, the word FAIR is what people really have mind.
Some groups equated free markets with no governmental regulation – just the opposite of what’s needed to have “free markets.”
http://www.monetary.org/chicagoplan.html
You good old boys will never read this, but those wanting a knowledge of just how long the private v public control of money debate has been going on;
“Those behind the Bank of England obscured the real source of the Bank’s power – ITS LEGAL PRIVILEGE – its notes were accepted in payments to the government. Recovering the science of money, for the private profit of a small group produced harmful results: 120 years of continuous warfare spawned an unpayable national debt leading to excessive taxation leading to horrors like the Irish Potato Famine. Before then, when a nation’s money system was used for taxation, the revenue generally aided the society. But the Bank of England concentrated society’s resources in the wrong hands, crippling the possibility for government to function properly, leading to a growing contempt of government.
Today it’s still the bankers versus the society. In philosophical shorthand it can be expressed as Adam Smith, or present day Economics vs Aristotle. But at base, the battle remains Private Money vs. Public Money. The outcome determines whether the money system operates to serve the few in control, or the whole society.”
http://www.monetary.org/bromsgrovetalk04.htm
December 28th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Social credit sounds great until you realise it is a form of socialism where the state keeps the right to determine how much credit is issued and to whom. A situation ripe for corruption. Time you woke up to that fact Iain, you cannot trust politicians.
Far better the current system where we may own shares in all the trading banks and earn a dividend and pay tax by imputation.
Interest is just a means of managing demand for money and therefore the quantity of money in supply.
December 28th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Didn’t Muldoon have a system whereby ” chosen ones ” could get import licences , and obtain a monopoly on particular goods that entered the country ? You either bought or bribed your way to prosperity . Or you were related , or it was an old school connection . And the great unwashed had to accept the consequence of jacked-up prices on every-bloody-thing .
So who would we trust to police the ” social credit ” to stop this sort of thing , larceny on a grand scale , from surfacing again ?
December 28th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
It’s all bollix RT. Iain means well but refuses to accept the concept has got him somewhere between the corpus callosum and the cerebellum. The last bloody thing we need is a rerun of the Piggy in Power days.
December 28th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
some groups equated free markets with no governmental regulation – just the opposite of what’s needed to have “free markets.”
Sound money and a contract law system, Iain, that is all that is needed. The first a precondition of laissez-faire, putting the banks into their ‘correct’ place in an economy where they must take on board prudence (no bailouts – market priced debt created on a sound assessment of a lenders cashflows and security given no government created asset bubbles to blur analysis); and the contract law system being one of the very few proper roles of the state (small ’s’), that is, minarchy.
The very opposite of the centrally planned economy, and hence, centrally planned, society – which is just another jailhouse – that you so long windily advocate. Central planning with it’s century long tradition now of – tax to literal – slavery: and you think I’m the fantasist. Even if your social/public credit nonsense was remotely realistic, which it is not, it would still be philosophically repugnant to the notion of free men and women.
[Some great posts here Wally and Roger.]
December 28th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Wally, you might be able to own subordinate shares in publically listed banks, but in the worldwide stock exchange for companies there are, as their is currently in most sectors, different classes of shareholders, those privy to information before events and those that are not. You can’t buy shares in the private central banks unless you are born or marry into the right family. Those that are nominee trusts of the central banks with the right as underwriters or market makers to take positions in IPO’s (Initial Public Offerings) with their with computer typed money. In plain language Wally history shows there are the large insider shareholders that enter and exit with repeated miraculous timing with much profit and the little shareholders, individually or by collective private or government investment pools, who are told to keep contributing for the long-term that continually end up owning a boat with a rusty hull covered with cheap defective paint. They then have to pay to get back in good repair only to suffer the same again. All good if you happen to need to redeem your money when it aligns with the insiders up cycle, absolutely devastating if you try and redeem it just after theyve sold their shares in what they know is a fast sinking ship.
December 28th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
In plain language Wally history shows there are the large insider shareholders that enter and exit with repeated miraculous timing with much profit and the little shareholders …
Prove that, on the scale that you suggest exists.
And given your answer is Soviet styled communist planning – yeah, yeah, ‘good’ communism because it’s guided by all knowing angels, or something – I’ll risk a little insider trading now and then. Buyer beware in laissez-faire, thanks, not living under Nanny’s autocratic glare.
December 28th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Iain : Re. IPO’s , there’ve been studies ( worldwide ) showing that within 12 months more than 75 % of all IPO’s are trading below their initial float price . Some of that may be the Feltex example , of insiders gutting the company’s assets , and bailing out of their holdings entirely . This information is freely available . And it kept me out of Feltex , and the recently listed Kathmandu . If a silly shagger like me can figure that out , anyone can .
I know that there is alot of unscrupulous behaviour in the world’s financial markets , but that hasn’t stopped me from building a financially sound lifestyle . Just don’t trust blindly , ask questions , develop your ” gut instinct ” .
December 28th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
“In plain language”…get orf Iain…since when have you used plain language?. Yes insider trading takes place and the reason is because some people are greedy crooks and yes our useless govts have failed to produce quality legislation and provide a quality regulatory body to police the criminal activity. That doesn’t mean capitalism is bad. It means NZ govt has been and still is bloody awful. I suspect you have lost money on an investment in the past and deem it necessary to destroy the whole system as some sort of punnishment. Yes there are market upturns and downturns. That is how capitalism works..until greedy politicians shove their noses in the system because they want to stay in power. That’s how the USA system operates. Ours is as bad. But what you suggest as the way forward is nothing of the bloody sort.
December 28th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Roger, we were forced under receivership conditions that if we were going to have any local manufacture of goods in competition to what was currently being manufactured by influential gentlemen of English, those local factories would be NZ based but foreign owned with a monopoly to boot. Several NZ operations were shut down to give new foreign owned factories a monopoly.
The thing was Muldoon never fully realised he could have been in full control, but he was just another that, for all his wriggling and convulsing like a worm on a hook, realised there was no escape whilst remaining in the grip of the private central bankers, he to like many before him lived to regret not having taken his opportunity.
You grumpy old two minute wonders will never read it, but its all here, especially the answers you seek Roger;
page 52;
The fact that even in good years we did not show an overall surplus on our external current account and had to borrow and even draw from the IMF was also of concern, so that we were forced to move to restrain not just consumption, but capital development as well.
page 109;
“Following the second oil shock in 1979 the volume of petro-dollars increased but the position of the non oil developing countries began to look less attractive, particularly as some of the new industries that were being developed found that when they came on stream their products, and steel was an example, were facing, protectionist barriers in their natural markets in the wealthy industrialised countries, in some cases the very countries that had provided the loans to build the plants.”
http://publiccreditorbust.blog.com/2009/05/30/rob-muldoon-made-a-scapegoat-for-bankers-repeated-crime-of-fraudulent-conveyance/
People arn’t always what they appear when you follow the strings all the way up to the puppet master or investigate who’s finger they are sitting on.
December 28th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
“..grumpy old two minute wonders..” haaaaaarhahahaaa…you mean Roger and Mark don’t you Iain…oh dear what a laugh. I shall have to regard myself as a failure for not having the depth of conviction that clearly has cemented itself into the space between Iain’s ears.
December 28th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Roger, 5.11pm ” If a silly shagger like me can figure that out , anyone can .”
Now Roger imagine you are one of millions compulsed to invest $50 billion a year collectively via pooled managed funds as is the case in Australia?
Mark, 5.05pm “Prove that, on the scale that you suggest exists.”
Read from this post down should about supply what you need;
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/10/23/opinion-why-new-zealand-needs-to-follow-singapores-example/comment-page-2/#comment-43381
December 28th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Actually , Wally , for a while there I thought that Iain had you in the middle of his sights , finger on the hair-trigger !
Credit where it’s due , Iain , your last post ( 5:19 ) has ” plain language ” , and I can follow it . If you use Mark’s post at 4:42 as a template , you can see the style of blog , and the language , we can easily understand . And not be bored witless by . There are glimmers of light . Keep striving toward the point that troglodytic neanderthals can grasp your message , and thus you can educate a Rangiora High School boy .
To your post re. Oz super : I do have a bundle tied up , as I was employed for 16 years there . But I saved my own money , on the side , and got much better returns than the professionals running those funds . Up to the individual to take personal responsibility .
December 28th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Nah not me RT..I sussed Iain out some time back..he suffers from fear he will end up accepting all those years invested in social credit were ‘much ado about nothing’. So like all gamblers he ‘invests’ even more time and effort. I am reminded of that pommy sitcom “ever decreasing circles”. Poor bugger.
December 28th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Futher to inside information, just incase you haven’t “got it” just yet;
“Already facing a spate of private lawsuits, the legal troubles of the country’s largest credit rating agencies deepened on Friday when the attorney general of Ohio sued Moody’s Investors Service, Standard & Poor’s and Fitch, claiming that they had cost state retirement and pension funds some $457 million by approving high-risk Wall Street securities that went bust in the financial collapse.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/business/21ratings.html
and those, like me, who were conned into thinking Obama was for change, from the very widely respected Simon Johnson;
“During the reign of Louis XIV, when the common people complained of some oppressive government policy, they would say, “If only the king knew . . . .” Occasionally people will make similar statements about Barack Obama, blaming the policies they don’t like on his lieutenants.
But Barack Obama, like Louis XIV before him, knows exactly what is going on. Now is the time for him to show what his priorities are and how hard he is willing to fight for them. Elections have consequences, people used to say. This election brought in a popular Democratic president with reasonably large majorities in both houses of Congress. The financial crisis exposed the worst side of the financial services industry to the bright light of day. If we cannot get meaningful financial regulatory reform this year, we can’t blame it all on the banking lobby.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/29/AR2009092900006.html
December 28th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Wally, you don’t know much about much, let alone enough to figure me out. As for informed conviction succeeding, not failing in ever decreasing circles if left to fearful characters like yourself.
How many times did William Wilberforce take his slavery abolishment bill to the British Parliament.?
How many times did Ron Paul take his FED Audit bill to US Congress?
” Specifically, Frank says that Ron Paul originally introduced the bill for the first time in 1983. But for 12 years after that, the Republicans used their control of the Finance Committee to insure that there was “no time” to give Paul’s bill a hearing.”
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/09/ron-paul-introduced-audit-fed-bill-in.html
“Representative Ron Paul, the Texas Republican who has called for an end to the Federal Reserve, said legislation he introduced to audit monetary policy has been “gutted” while moving toward a possible vote in the Democratic-controlled House.”
http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2009/10/congressman-watt-guts-audit-fed-bill.html
“Ron Paul’s legislation, H.R. 1207, recently passed the House Financial Services Committee, and a majority of the whole House (307 of 435) have cosponsored the overwhelmingly popular bill. The legislation would require the Government Accountability Office (GAO) to audit the Federal Reserve annually and disclose the results to the public. Bernanke opposes the audit while at the same time claiming that the Fed is adequately audited”
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/economy/commentary-mainmenu-43/2422-bernanke-attacks-ron-pauls-audit-the-fed-bill
Well informed conviction can pay of sometimes Wally, you ought to try it sometime, after all having that fence poked up ya but all the time has got to hurt, dont it?
December 28th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
and those, like me, who were conned into thinking Obama was for change
Indicative of the naive, fantasy world social creditors obviously live. Libertarianz knew what Obama and his ilk were like before the first primary. Big government, Iain, you can’t trust it. And you advocate the suffocation of the biggest type of government of all.
December 28th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
“Government Accountability Office (GAO) to audit the Federal Reserve annually and disclose the results to the public”… which means what?…nothing! I do feel sorry for you Iain. It must be awful being so fearful of accepting so much of your effort has been for nothing. You see Iain, if you cannot convince me…how the hell do you expect to convince the voting public to accept what you preach because preaching it is. Off to Cuba or North Korea with you and observe how social credit really fails in a spectacular fashion while also robbing people of their liberty.
December 28th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I think that many of of were let down by Obama , much as by Key here in NZ . After 8-9 years of a repressive government , of monumentally stupid pronuncements dropped onto us from on high academia ( Clark obviously , not Bush ) we were desperate for a change . Zebadee from the Magic Roundabout would’ve won that election !
But are we surprised Iain , by the Democrats , they love big governement . This financial crisis has played nicely into their hands . And Bernanke , the patsy , has gifted them every opportunity to wrest freedom from the individual and from the marketplace . The USA today is resembling NZ , 50 times bigger . A socialist , well-intended , bumbling morass . No wonder the Chinese are so cock-a-hoop . The future is theirs , handed on a silver platter , courtesy of Mr Obama , IOU to the great unwashed masses of the USA .
December 28th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Not naivety Mark, just honesty, some of these bankers, such as John Key, are very, very good at what they do, many of the victims of the worlds greatest con men still think theyre good good guys, didn’t take me long to figure out he was just the same horse in a different coat.
Wally, you say “You see Iain, if you cannot convince me…how the hell do you expect to convince the voting public to accept what you preach because preaching it is.”
Wally, not being able to convince you does not concern me in the least. I will wager that if others of reasonable intelligence and motivation have taken the time to read even half of the evidence I presented above, they will “get it” straight off, as for what I am suggesting being anything akin to Cuba or North Korea just goes to show how far you have fallen behind the pace.
December 28th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Look out RT and Mark…Helen’s in town…must be here to advise Bill on how to apply for UN development money….
December 28th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
“…the victims of the worlds greatest con men still think theyre good good guys…” well I never…look at what you have said Iain…it goes to the heart of your own gullibility in accepting this notion of social credit as some sort of religious revelation…you poor sod.
December 28th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
I can help you out Iain…I’ll lend you a dog collar and send Bernard the remote so he can zap you every time you stray into the socred zone.
December 28th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Not naivety Mark, just honesty, some of these bankers, such as John Key, are very, very good at what they do, many of the victims of the worlds greatest con men still think theyre good good guys, didn’t take me long to figure out he was just the same horse in a different coat.
Well tell me about the benevolent henchmen who is to make all the decisions in your totalitarian Social Credit State. Where do you intend to find him or her? If you didn’t see through the Obamamessiah, and he’s a fellow socialist, why would free formerly free people trust you, this time, to find the right tyrant?
Of course there is away around all this: laissez-faire. The actions of consenting individuals in a free market, and a free society.
December 28th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Wally and Mark for want of factual rebuttal of sufficient enough quality taper off into ever decreasing circles of time honoured personal attacks based on past platitudes of fearful propaganda or bumper stickers they may have read, because they are not to long.
Wally Social Credit is a denomination of the many forms of Public Credit as a whole. I am not a fundamentalist CH Douglas Social Creditor but an advocate of adopting the most successful concepts of Public Credit from all denominations that have been tried and discarding that, that failed. Wally, by offering no plausable alternative solution you appear to be saying I’ll just sit in my lazy boy, sip my port, suck on a cigar and hope they don’t get me before I die a peaceful death and be thankful atleast I was lucky enough able to die with some dignity, good for you Wal, but Im going to have crack at em on behalf of my kids before they get to the door thanks.
I didn’t give Obama the full investigative works after Carolyn Kennedy gave him her endorsement. If she got fooled after loosing two brothers in suspicious circumstances who were both ardent advocates of public credit, I won’t be to hard on myself and it will be a lapse I will not make again.
Mark, its good practice debating someone with just as much conviction from another angle. I respect that, we will have to agree to disagree and let history decide who is right or wrong.
cheers
Roger, I spent ten years in Aus. What about those without sufficient discretionary income to save in other ways than that, that is invested compulsorily in private managed pooled funds on their behalf?
I do agree that individual responsibility has a part to play, but that can only occur and the people then be judged on their choices once they are fully informed of what is currently being suppressed about the structures and practices of international banking by mainstream media and our education facilities all with the hardy thanks of the bankers for not devulging their fun in games in a manner the commoners will ever be able to put it all together. Mind you going on old Wally there, they ain’t got much to worry about, he still believes this old yarn ” Interest is just a means of managing demand for money and therefore the quantity of money in supply.”
Well have to agree to disagree and leave it up to the court of public opinion.
Cheers
Iain
December 28th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Happy New Year. Busy relaxing, back soon …. ‘ish. Les.
December 28th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Put the collar on Iain…it’s for the best…honest! “Get the jacket ready boys…soon as he starts in with the trust me I know best flimflam…nail the bugger”…”we’ll put him with Don in a padded cell and with any luck they’ll cancel each other out”
December 28th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
or when factually spent, resort to humour to grab the Bill and Ben voters.
December 28th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
we will have to agree to disagree and let history decide who is right or wrong.
History already did Iain
I was right, central planning was wrong.
December 28th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Woooooo , back in the saddle . Wee nap before going off to print ” The Fish & Chip Digest ” .
Iain : Those in Australia without the discretionary income to save , aside from their compulsory superannuation savings , are in a much better situation than many in this country . As appalling as fund managers’ performance is , the gradual compounding effect upon a 9 % contribution , does build a tidy nest egg , given time . As much as I loathe compulsion , their sysytem has built enormous wealth . Forced saving doesn’t require any discipline upon the individuals part . And for a $ 50 fee you can shift within the fund manager to find the particular level of growth / income / capital guarantee which suits you .
December 28th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Wally : Helen is back in town ‘cos it’s so fecking cold in NY City this winter . Global warming ain’t all it’s cracked up to be . Guess we’ll have to massage those figures again , to prove the modelling is correct . ………….. They can warm themselves on the bonfire of the ” original ” data , which must at all costs be destroyed .
December 28th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
iain parker– you appear to have been unsuccessful in your chosen fields over
the years—your words here–stockmarket trader—realestate–successful options traderthen you had an attack of consience+ gave it up. next was politician –you got .95%of the vote –not too many believers there. you also wrote that you were strivingto pass on the knowledge that you learned over the years to your fellow working class in a manner that they could understand.not much luck here either yet
it.s a bit rich for you to be bagging other people who are making a sucess of their live,s.
December 28th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Your really are a hoot Mark. The private banking infiltration of and destruction of any fair and reasonable constitutional regulation to ensure contracts between consenting individuals be carried through in good faith led to the wild west, law of the jungle far closer to what you advocate than anything I do. You have seen your system in action and it failed. Now you want to chuck the baby out with the bath water.
No regulatory law agencies and a voluntary tax system is eutopian pie in the sky Mark.
Who would we choose to be the leader of public credit reform?
Well like any democracy based representative party, there would first be a majority ballot election of a leader that all members got to vote on their worthiness after open campaign. He/she would then go on to promote the contest the viability of the parties ideals on the wider electorate at national election.
As has been the case now for a long while the House of Representatives has been advised by official agencies attached to it. Due to our nation facing many repeated debt repayment crisis dating back to the early 1800s due to the predatory lending practices of the private central bankers who decreed us a foreign capital dependent colony, we have had much social and economic policy imposed upon us by those we are subserviant to by compounding debt. We have also had placed within our midst advisory institutions(NZDMO ETC) full of foreign advisors, foreign trained Kiwi’s, or Victoria University modern monetarist trained Kiwi’s here to ensure we adhere to our conditions of receivership.
I propose that we approach a new group of advisory experts such as Simon Johnson, Joseph Stiglitz, Michael Hudson, Ron Paul, Thomas Greco etc individuals that have proven their decency and conviction by risking it all in calling the outcomes before they eventuated and now doing all they can to expose the detrimental impacts of the institutions they tried for so long to change from within.
We would have a new bunch of proven experts on fairer international banking and trading systems that we could proudly openly refer to, instead of hiding them in the shadows for fear the people know who they are as is current practice. New Zealand has thus far been the social experiment of the private bankers that has nearly seen it stolen out from under us by slaveminded foreign elitist’s, why not now the social experiment of the international public creditors seeking to introduce a system that would instate global social and environmental justice that would enhance the economic sovereignty and dignity of nations and all their citizens.
December 28th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Roger, Once force fed compulsory super payments exceed true value of the markets into which they are forced that market is forced into the realm of created accountancy and when that happens I ask you who do you think skims more from that market, the large agile sophisticated active share owners or the whale like pooled investment funds of the workers or the unsophisticated small investors/ speculators.
Those funds are skimmed on a regular basis. And please don’t give me the old chestnut that the insiders lose also, they will often leave a small holding in the kitty to make it look like they are suffering along with the rest of the punters, but a pittance to what they pulled out at the top.
Pwilkie, I increased they DSC vote from 35 to 395 in one of the largest electorates in the country, on a tiny budget whilst still working 10-12 hours a day, no doubt a crap result in anyones eyes, but I atleast tweaked the interest of a few. I may or may not have been successful if I had of continued down the road of financial sector shananigans, I stopped so I could always rightly claim to be clean of it once I realised it was a rigged pyramid scam.
I want fairness in the system for the increasing number of people with a decent work ethic that are finding it increasingly hard to survive in a world where everything you need to survive is increasing in cost and, for many, everything you need to get it is staying the same or going backwards. It is the inflationary impact of the way that the money supply currently enters circulation as debt with compounding interest attached that causes it, thus I want to reform the monetary system to a fairer one.
Im just a simple man looking for a simple life, but there comes a time that if you think your research has led you to believe you know a little more about something than you observe of others, and you believe your hard gained knowledge might be able to contribute to a future change for the better, while surely if every person in that position didn’t eventually back himself a little, or was immediately bashed down as only a pompous prick, then surely that would be the death of asperation in society, and I would suggest that strong willed tyrants would like that just fine?
December 29th, 2009 at 1:07 am
..and blathering about all that rhetoric crap, unnoticed the oil- price is increasing fast and the egoistical, lecherous word trading power world will petrol drive us headlong into disaster.
Welcome to the real world driving to work on Monday with an empty tank from Albany to Auckland downtown but in stead thousand’s romping on top of a Velo over the Harbour bridge – Ha !
December 29th, 2009 at 3:45 am
Hey Walter : you’re more chirpy than usual , Santa bring you something nice ? My take on the price of oil , is that if it stays at these levels , or higher , it allows for alternative energy sources to be competitive . And it fuels the urgency for ongoing research into energy alternatives and efficiencies . Great to read your blogs , glad you’re back .
December 29th, 2009 at 3:53 am
Iain : The Oz super funds are invested internationally and at home . And they contain the full range of tradeable investment products , from shares / bonds / cash / etc . So I don’t believe that they will exceed the true value of the markets into which they are being placed . Also , as ” baby-boomers ” are reaching retirement age , some drawn down of the super will occur . That will slow the growth of savings . And it is savings . Real money going to work in the capital markets . I thought that was a good thing . Don’t you ?
December 29th, 2009 at 6:38 am
Roger – “Real money going to work in the capital markets . I thought that was a good thing . Don’t you ?”
Real Money Roger? there ain’t a dollar of real money that is truly backed by anything of real wealth currently in circulation. I am all for the introduction of real money going to work in the capital markets, you bet ya.
Have a good one all I am off back on the hamster wheel today.
December 29th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Walter, and who currently owns most of the second most inflationary commodity on earth other than interest bearing credit, the privately owned central bankers, thats who.
December 29th, 2009 at 6:43 am
You missed him didn’t you…
December 29th, 2009 at 7:15 am
4am and the Herald ‘publishes’ yet more blather in an attempt to pork the value of holiday homes….no there was no murder involved…no rape…no escaped Elephant or lost politician..just pure out and out BS dressed up with sums of money to temp the greedy into rushing on in and buying a holiday batch so they too can reap the fat sums of money and cash in on the absolute certainty that their batch will skyrocket in value!
December 29th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Iain,
Who- yeah hamster wheel or waterboard the bastards – in downtown New York, Hotchin, Zuerich, Rot- Schild, London, Amsterdam, Wash-ing-down, Tel- Affy.
December 29th, 2009 at 9:08 am
..and under no circumstances don’t sale them a bach, petrol- station, timber mill or piece of West- coast here in wonder-full NZ.
December 29th, 2009 at 9:16 am
..we need them to make NZ work.
December 29th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Real Money : Iain : Someone worked for that dosh , human energy and precious time went into it , and you airily dismiss it as nothing of real value . Yer lost me , dude !
December 29th, 2009 at 9:48 am
“everything you need to survive is increasing in cost and, for many, everything you need to get it is staying the same or going backwards. It is the inflationary impact of the way that the money supply currently enters circulation as debt with compounding interest attached that causes it, thus I want to reform the monetary system to a fairer one”(sic)…let’s look at these comments of Iain’s:
Everything increasing in cost….rubbish. Some stuff is and some is not. A new vehicle today is far cheaper and far better than they were in the past. Ditto tvs and cameras and furniture and power tools to give just a few examples.
Everything(money)…is staying the same or going backwards….again we get rubbish…average real incomes are climbing. Faster in skilled occupations. Granted we are not keeping up with those in aus but they are rising.
“It is the inflationary impact of the way that the money supply currently enters circulation as debt with compounding interest attached that causes it…”…yet more rubbish…incomes are not rising as fast as they have in aus because the nz economy is not as productive..it is wasteful and poorly governed with an emphasis on property speculation.
“…thus I want to reform the monetary system to a fairer one…”..ie.. I want money to be cheaper and I want a social credit govt to makes it so by taking away the rights of people to borrow or invest where they think best.
December 29th, 2009 at 9:53 am
NOW I AM MAD . WAKEY WAKEY IAIN : IT FIAT or FLAT
YOU CHOOSE : IN GOLD WE LOSE . IN FIAT YOUSE POOHS
GOLD IS OLD / PURE MOULD / TIME TO SCOLD :
TIME & PRECIOUS ENERGY BUILDS THE FIAT : THINK OF THAT ( PRAT ! )
BERNANKE IS THE WANKY : PRINTING PRESSES GO CRANKY
GRAB YA HANKY . THAT PRIG GIVE SPANKY AND YANKEE , SAIL OFF TO GAOL
NO GAIL . MAYBE TARQUAIN & WARREN IF HE’S LUCKY , OOOOOOOOH DUCKY .
MADE OFF WITH THE MUNNY , HONEY . MADOFF WITH THE SWEAT AND TOIL :
THE FRUITS OF THE SOIL : MAKES ME BLOOD BOIL
KNOW WHERE HE”S BEING : IAIN : NOW ARE YA SEEIN’ ? SEE’N THE GREE’N
THEM DOLLAR BILLS : HARD WON FROM THE HILLS : NOT PLUCKED FROM THE TREE
FOR FREE : NO HE HE HE . FOR YOU OR ME . GENERATIONS BUILT THE FIAT
GENERATING THE PRESSES : STUFFS ALL THAT :
DON”T JOIN BEN ………AND BE A PRAT !
WAKEY WAKEY SHEEPLES
GRAB BERNANKLE BY THE ANKLE
AND CHUCK “EM OFF A STEEPLE .
December 29th, 2009 at 11:30 am
S-R-L
What do you mean by NOW I’m mad ?
All three of us here are mad anyway and every day/ night.
December 29th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Walter : Iain went one step too far , disparaging the savings of folk who have worked for it . The money system we got ain’t gonna be replaced , whatever it’s shortcomings . Iain’s alternative seems too idealistic , to me . And he took another step over the brink by claiming that there is too much saving . Too much ? Saints preserve us !
December 29th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Wally..”…yet more rubbish…incomes are not rising as fast as they have in aus because the nz economy is not as productive..it is wasteful and poorly governed with an emphasis on property speculation.
I would argue the difference in incomes between Aus and NZ is more related to the abundence and variety of natural resources Aus has compared to NZ. I do agree that NZers are wasteful, poorly governed, property speculators and becoming less productive, but so are aussies.
December 29th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
International Farmer,
I hear that the milk prices went south big time in Europe before Christmas. Now $480 a tonne below our prices, Im trying to get more info.
If you want a good read, Im enjoying ‘Welcome to Obamaland’ I have seen your future and it doesn’t work. by James Delingpole
Replace Blair and co with Helen and co and its a bit of a wake up call.
http://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Obamaland-Have-Future-Doesnt/dp/1596985887/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262045496&sr=1-1
December 29th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
AndrewJ:
You are right. It appears European dairy spot prices for butter and milk powders fell dramatically before Christmas and before their new season’s production has even come on stream. European spot SMP is now well below Oceania prices – something that won’t last for long. Oceania nearly always has the lower prices.
By the 8th of January a clearer picture will emerge – that week will reveal GlobalDairyTrade auction prices for WMP (05/01/10), NZ dairy export prices for November (07/01/10) and USDA spot prices for Oceania and Europe (08/01/10).
I will let you know what is revealed, and provide revised payout projections – probably late on the 8th of January.
I will not be surprised if those returning to work on the 11th or 18th of Janauary find much has changed from when they went on holiday.
December 29th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Many thanks for the heads up AndrewJ and PeterR, I will watch with interest.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Fonterra say the payout forecast is solid for this season, but hedge bets by citing future volitility. Confidence has changed dramatically since payout forecast increases have been announced; there’s even rumour that Crafer thought he could have farmed his way out of the mess he was in!
December 29th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Rodger, Wally, Mark, Iain,
Disingenuous ad hominem argument only stifles productive debate. Any big picture concept, particularly any kind of actual or implied ‘ism’ is idealistic. The application of big concepts to real situations and environments will obviously require pragmatic ground level solutions, so it is unproductive to attack the big picture with ground level argument. It’s similar to saying that libertarianism doesn’t work because it gives free reign to the greedy. In fact, it seems to be this very argument that is at the heart of most objections to public credit, i.e. that the pollies cannot be trusted not to rort the system, therefore (despite acknowledged private sector rorting) there is no alternative to the current system. Perhaps it is inevitable that wherever power lies, (particularly the power to issue money or debt) there will be corruptive influences to which the greediest will succumb, given sufficient opportunity.
The contrary arguments presented up to this point, rather than refuting the big picture of the potential economic benefits to NZ, or the comparative implications for our sovereignty, concentrate on concerns about where the power sits. Two threads have emerged – one, that the pollies cannot be trusted with that much power (more potential to rort the system, or the lack of ability to administer it), and two, that if such power was vested in the gummint, personal freedoms to borrow or invest would be restricted.
On the face of it, there does appear to be significant scope for economic benefit – even with a partial implementation through issuing public credit for infrastructure spending only, (and maybe interest payments on existing public debt). It also appears to be a sensible move (though philosophically tricky) to bring debt management and control over money supply ‘in house’. Surely the financial economy should be managed in the public interest, rather than the interests of whoever the public are indebted to (private central bankers (?), whoever they are, I am sure they sure don’t give a rats about sovereignty). Wherever, and however the money supply is generated and managed, there will be scope for rorts large and small, but if the big picture benefits of public/social credit holds up to analytic scrutiny, a finite trial program administered by a publicly owned institution, at arms length from the pollies, similar in set-up to RBNZ, would potentially be much more transparent than the current set-up , and a notion that merits more discussion.
Cheers…
December 29th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
A couple of interesting reads,
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/brace-impact-2010-private-demand-us-fixed-income-has-increase-elevenfold-or-else
and
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/12/most-redeeming-feature-of-capitalism-is.html
December 29th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
International Farmer:
It is becoming increasingly clear to me that what you describe is the business Fonterra is in. It is not the NZ dairy industry’s long term future that matters but confidence and maintaining asset values short term.
Fonterra may well payout $6.05, but that figure will only very loosely reflect prevailing export prices. More important will be the results of FX speculation and adjustments to equity. More on this will be revealed soon.
December 29th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
AndrewJ,
Interesting links alright, so’s this, in the same vein…
http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/18/government-budget-deficit-personal-finance-financial-advisor-network-treasury-debt.html
It is hard to see 2010 being other than a really wild ride.
Cheers
December 29th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Be pragmatic, forget the extremes of either ideal.
MIX it for starters, as BND do.
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/11/20/special-report-why-nz-needs-a-bipartisan-grand-coalition-for-economic-reform-not-tweaks-to-the-rbnz-act/#comment-48915
BND, you know in that bastion of socialism, communism, etc, etc. (What a weak rebuttal.)
MIX it, and at least enjoy some benefits we do not enjoy with the present system. Anyone, reel em’ off …….
Les, back to snooze mode…..
December 29th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Agreed Les – leave all the ‘isms’ at the door – apart from pragmatism, and just take an objective problem solving approach. Identify the bits that have worked and are working elsewhere, see how they fit NZ (all, some, none?) what problems have been experienced and what can be improved and tailored…
No-one has come up with ANY serious, objective rebuttal or structural error yet. (except… ‘the vested interests won’t let it happen’ – which could well be true)
Cheers…
December 29th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
I’ll have a go then Les, perhaps you can fill in the gaps:
Restitution of sovereignty – even though we have negotiated chunks away in FTA’s, if we (over time) can gain control over inflation and contraction of our money supply, we will regain a great deal of economic self-determination.
Reverse the exponential growth of borrowing to pay interest – only debt principle is created currently, not the interest.
Reduced dependence on economic growth to cover ballooning debt/interest repayments.
Quickly stimulate economy/ employment with public works that benefit all.
Local vested interests instead of foreign – transparency, relative simplicity.
I’ll think about some more…
Cheers
December 30th, 2009 at 7:40 am
You do that Martin H…there’s plenty of room in Iain’s padded cell for two..three even!
December 30th, 2009 at 9:35 am
” Disingenuous ad hominem argument ” had me running for the hills . For a moment there , I thought I’d stumbled into the Iain Parker family picnic . ……… . There’s a toxic blue-green algae in the Ashley River , think these guys have been having a swig of it ? ……….. . I went ” back to snooze mode ” long before you did , Les ………….. . ” Quickly stimulate economy/ employment with public works that benefit all. . Back to the Muldoon days of a zillion guys standing around , ” breastfeeding their shovels ” , whilst one poor sap actually sweats and digs a hole , that didn’t needed digging anyway .
December 30th, 2009 at 9:40 am
You’re a fast and funny guy Wally, you have sure got the audience participation thing going on. In fact your preoccupation with your own wit reminds me of a teacher I had in college – come to think of it, his classes were like a padded cell too!
December 30th, 2009 at 9:47 am
[ Hushed whisper ] : Wally , we’ve woken one of them up . Keep him in eyesight , and back out of here very quietly . Don’t wanna rouse the others ……..No sudden movements !
December 30th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Roger,
Harrhahahahaa I must admit I hadn’t thought of it that way, thanks for the insight. Quite an entertaining back end to the thread, so not a total waste of time!
Cheers…
December 30th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Jeez Rt that was like squeezing a fresh plum pip between thumb and finger..dam near hit the moon.
December 30th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Well, well go away long enough and the bumper sticker boys will find enough rope to hang themselves:
Roger,
Firstly Rogee, what did you say you did for a crust?
You said;
“Iain : The Oz super funds are invested internationally and at home . And they contain the full range of tradeable investment products , from shares / bonds / cash / etc . So I don’t believe that they will exceed the true value of the markets into which they are being placed……And it is savings . Real money going to work in the capital markets . I thought that was a good thing . Don’t you ?”
I said “Real Money Roger? there ain’t a dollar of real money that is truly backed by anything of real wealth currently in circulation. I am all for the introduction of real money going to work in the capital markets, you bet ya.”
You said “Real Money : Iain : Someone worked for that dosh , human energy and precious time went into it , and you airily dismiss it as nothing of real value . Yer lost me , dude !”
I say firstly Roger, sure the Aust pooled superanuation funds can spread the compolsory contributions of the mostly finanacially illiterate and inactive shareholders throughout the globe with supposed risk degree options, but through rigged voting structures, insider trading, non policing of disclosure laws, lack of independent auditing that are common practice in the global exchange for companies and the fact that the notional value of the global funny money supply far exceeds available natural resources means all stockmarkets currently exceed true value, lets face it Roger, the financially illiterate inactive shareholders are cannon fodder for the insiders and commissioned advisors. As for the risk degree options, based on whose advice, the commissioned rating agencies?
As for your outrage at what we swap our blood,sweat and tears for currently meaning nothing, Roger what we currently receive for our labours allows us to trade and exchange for a while until the debt that comes attached to it grows by mathematical design to put us collectively into receivership and transfer hard assets to the lenders and their corporate subsidiaries. The only thing of real value in the world is the necesities of life, modern money is only a means of exchange with no intrisinc value, those that have monopolised the issuance of interest bearing credit as the means of exchange are slowly gaining all the real wealth while we continue to think our electronic bits are a true store of wealth, when the fact is the private central bankers can switch the credit tap of at will and dictate our access to the real wealth, the necesities of life.
I thought you were clever Roger, but turns out you are just a clever dick.
Wally
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/12/23/bnz-kiwibank-hike-deposit-rates-as-competition-for-local-funds-heats-up/#comment-53931
December 30th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Actually we better start another bit for the bumper sticker chap. Whats your life story Wally, never taken a Govt subsidy, no farming or housing assistance, not a member of the rampant public service sector holding the country to ransom with crippling wage rise demands? what do/did you do for a crust Wal?
Wally I said ““everything you need to survive is increasing in cost and, for many, everything you need to get it is staying the same or going backwards. It is the inflationary impact of the way that the money supply currently enters circulation as debt with compounding interest attached that causes it, thus I want to reform the monetary system to a fairer one”
You said “Everything increasing in cost….rubbish. Some stuff is and some is not. A new vehicle today is far cheaper and far better than they were in the past. Ditto tvs and cameras and furniture and power tools to give just a few examples.”
Wally I said everything you “need”, as in the fact that the necessities of life take up far more of the expendable income of the common folk on the average wage in the real sector. The fact that housing isn’t fully accounted for in the CPI compounds this fact.
You said ” Everything(money)…is staying the same or going backwards….again we get rubbish…average real incomes are climbing. Faster in skilled occupations. Granted we are not keeping up with those in aus but they are rising.”
I say, bullshit, as is the case currently in most so called”developed” nations the intangible financial sector, has monstered the tangible realsector. The bullshit remuneration packages of those that sell their souls to take part in the slaveminded exploitation of their fellow human beings is chucked in the pool with those they exploit then devided by the entire work force to come up with an average that is clearly distorted. The median wage measure doesn’t stand up for the same reason. The only reason Aus average wage is larger is because they have a larger bullshit sector due to their compolsory superanuation scheme. The mining wealth doesn’t trickle down in fair and reasonable ammounts as many of the firms are foreign owned, mainly tracable back to private central banker majority stakeholdings.
You said “It is the inflationary impact of the way that the money supply currently enters circulation as debt with compounding interest attached that causes it…”…yet more rubbish…incomes are not rising as fast as they have in aus because the nz economy is not as productive..it is wasteful and poorly governed with an emphasis on property speculation.”
I say, debt based fiscal stimulus has never created enough economic activity to exceed the ever increasing compounding debt, leading instead to repeating debt repayment crisis and receivership. Housing speculation and other markets I agree, helped by no minimum time requirement that invested capital must remain in a nation before it can be repatriated or moved elsewhere, the volitility caused to the exchange rate by large speculators makes it all but impossible for small/medium business to operate with any fiscal certainty. Wally, if you say but they can hedge, buy insurance, I really will swear.
You said “…thus I want to reform the monetary system to a fairer one…”..ie.. I want money to be cheaper and I want a social credit govt to makes it so by taking away the rights of people to borrow or invest where they think best.”
I say, I want public credit spent into circulation without compound interest attached for the building of and maintanence of our social infrastructure as a means of replacing the way our “credit money base” currently enters circulation firstly borrowed from private central bankers with compound interest attached then being spent into circulation. This would reduce the cost of credit down the foodchain, mean that credit lending could be converted to fee or simple interest basis which would mean it is mathematically able to be repaid and create true productivity. Commercial banks would suffer only one major change, they would not be allowed to create credit money out of freshair, only provide save storage, transfer and reasonable lending facilities for money already in circulation. Wally you can continue to borrow and invest where ever the hell you want, only you wan’t be paying many times true value for everything you attempt to do.
Wal, you’d be great at creating bumper stickers.
Happy new year all, I’m off for a few days camping at the beach before it ends up in foreign ownership and they start tolling us.
December 30th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
You Said / I Said ::: Fecking hell , Iain , that is so tedious . You only got two ” bumper-stickers ” lads out of an audience of hundreds , focusing on your message . And you make cheap shots at us . You’re the one trying to spread your message . Doing a piss poor job of it , if you have to resort to personal attacks . Even Hickey has labelled your stuff as conspiracy theory . I’d add to that long-winded and unneccessarily complex .
I never claimed to be clever , quite the opposite really . But it’s you , not me , who is attempting to educate us heathens to your philosophy . So ask yourself this , are you failing to get that through because the message is wrong / the presentation is faulty / the audience really are imbeciles / or a combination of all of the above .
Happy New Year !
December 31st, 2009 at 12:04 am
No, no I think Iain’s explaining comments about the issues are fair enough.
Rogie, obviously the hailstones in Low-burn were fairly big and I guess some hit you right on top of your head where all your enormous brain-mass is hiding- but then hailstorms are seldom in Loburn- once a year – twice ?
Wow 12.04 am A Happy, peaceful New Year for all – hopefully !
December 31st, 2009 at 6:58 am
Poor Roger, don’t you like when they’re able to talk back and defend themselves, especially when they use those most pesky of things, provable facts. How else am I to answer questions accumulated over days when I am unable to reply in short time due to work or family commitments.
Sorry Martin H but sometimes you have to stop and go house to house a little or the unattended damage is to great. Agree with your simple outline, except don’t understand this “Local vested interests instead of foreign – transparency, relative simplicity.”? more info please.
For other’s of the bumper sticker brigade, the complexity that is the modern international banking network has been built up over centuries and is almost impossible to rebutt the modern propaganda put out to support the rort with any reasonable comprehension on the space of a bumper sticker.
If you think my language is complex, you ought to try wading through the knee deep official legalise jargon they ring fence it with to make the eyes of any probing outsider glaze over in minutes.
I will not continue respect anyone who will not give people with obvious hard working conviction the respect of reading something of length of their evidence in order to ascertain their credibility or not? Those that simply fall back on the “if you cant put it on a bumper sticker, me or no-one else will bother reading it let alone get it” are those that are stuffing this country by selling our kids into slavery whilst swollowing the monetarist mantra that we are borrowing forward to spread the load over generations.
December 31st, 2009 at 7:11 am
Iain – you make some good points in this thread, as usual. Cheers, Les.
December 31st, 2009 at 7:35 am
Iain : Stop sneering , and start talking plain English ! You havn’t proven a thing yet . ……………Except bad manners . You are badly letting down the message , if there is one , amidst a convoluted tale of paranoic woe .
December 31st, 2009 at 7:45 am
where’s wally? Is he in Chile stirring up? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8435404.stm
December 31st, 2009 at 7:56 am
Who Will Push the Red Button?
Jesus died because the crowd voted for the criminal enterprise. The crowd voted for the priests and their rich endowments and their alliance with the moneychangers.
It’s 2000 Years Later and We’re Still Voting for the Criminals.
Looking around today, it would appear that more than two thousand years later our popular vote is still backing an unholy alliance of “priests” and their rich endowments,[2] “money changers” (now called central bankers), criminal enterprises[3] and the continuous growth of dirty money, market manipulation and warfare.
The future of our democratic freedoms depends on our adopting financially responsible and profitable strategies to collectively “push the red button” in a way that makes our world better instead of worse.
Such strategies do exist. These are actions we can take immediately both individually and collectively at the grassroots.
Are you ready to push the red button?
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0407/S00040.htm
December 31st, 2009 at 8:22 am
Sharonv…don’t tell everyone!…just helping out the workers at the mine…chaps need more pay I always say…..
Poor Parker getting all worked up over his inability to explain how his public credit system would work without a departure of the trading banks and the loss of freedom for the people…he thinks they would hang around to be no more than places for us to keep our money. For an end of 09 laugh we get this from Iain…”This would reduce the cost of credit down the foodchain, mean that credit lending could be converted to fee or simple interest basis which would mean it is mathematically able to be repaid and create true productivity.”…yes it deserves the award for mindless gibberish….but he finishes off with an even better piece of garbage….”you can continue to borrow and invest where ever the hell you want, only you wan’t be paying many times true value for everything you attempt to do(sic)”….I find it difficult to pick which statement is the dumbest!
You are getting pissed off that you know so little about me…oh dear what a shame…nothing to attack is there Iain.
Stop with garbage Iain. Go and get help.
December 31st, 2009 at 9:22 am
Stop this tedious, mindless gibberish stupidity, using garbage language you old silly bricks. It is the last day in 2009. Nice words – please.
All here are valuable contributors. Have a nice Christmas folks.
Walter
December 31st, 2009 at 9:45 am
That’s happy reading sharonv…all I need now is a bonza drilling report from any one of the several prospects in Laos…and even better with the property sector set to decline on the back of rate rises.
December 31st, 2009 at 10:21 am
Wally – “Poor Parker getting all worked up over his inability to explain how his public credit system would work without a departure of the trading banks and the loss of freedom for the people…he thinks they would hang around to be no more than places for us to keep our money.” That is not and would not be the case, evidence cited here:
NZMEA Submission Parliamentary Banking Inquiry, 31 August 2009.
http://www.mea.org.nz/media/submissions.aspx
NZ pays approx $250mio pw in interest payments, that are paid for by our taxes. Why do you not want NZ to pay less tax? Or have you worked out some clever ways to pay less tax?
Happy New Year, Les.
December 31st, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Here’s a clever idea , to pay less tax , tell the pollies in Wellington to stop spending so much of our – not their – money . We are living beyond our means . It is that simple . The shame is that Labour won the 2005 election , as they went into spending hyperdrive in the next 3 years . Appalling as the thought of PM Don Brash would’ve been , the Clarke / Cullen / Simpson circus has left the cupboards bare . If only the Nats. could get gumnut expenditure back to 2004/5 levels . But they are increasing it further .
December 31st, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Roger – true enough, but the tax burden could even lower if we were using …… you know the story, but that’d mean less inflation for those deriving wealth by it …. ?
Saw in the Press editorial today IMO a gross error. Something like, “This time last year we were already in recession caused by the GFC etc”, or words to that effect. We went into recession because of the failed polices of the last Labour government. We have spent longer in recession than might have been the case because of the GFC and the present governments lack of effective policy – which is no surprise as they have just carried on, in the main, following the failed policies Labour were using.
Cheers, Les.
December 31st, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Les : You are laying alot of blame at the door of the cats , the Geelong Football Club ( GFC ) ……………… I lose track of your abbreviations , TARA / TINA / CRAPS , etc . But we are agreed that Labour spent up big , with no thought of a downturn , and no planning for such an outcome .
But even in your NZMEA submission ( 31 / 08 / 09 ) JW states : New Zealand must sell to the world , only successful export and trade can increase wealth and improve living standards. . But are you saying that we should do more of the same ? ‘Cos we currently export alot to the world , and yet we are up shit creek , literally . Our biggest export industry is dairying , a dirty business , highly pollutant , wasteful of water , and a massive user of fertiliser inputs . More of that ? It is a sunset industry , to quote David Lange , of agriculture generally .
December 31st, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I cannot see any support by the MEA for social credit policies. Don’t know where you are coming from Les!.
December 31st, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Roger – I for one have no problem with dairying, it’s served NZ very well and I believe it can and will do so into the future, if like all industries, it continues to development improvements to be a sustainable part of our export mix. An export mix, that NZMEA are saying, we should broaden and deepen- think about the wider context of NZMEA’s position. This development of our export mix could happen with appropriate policy, as we’ve discussed before. Cheers, Les.
December 31st, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Wally – read up how the BND works and also maybe check your definitions re. ‘public credit’ and ’social credit’. Cheers, Les.
December 31st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
This development of our export mix could happen with appropriate policy …
I reckon it would ‘happen’ with much less policy, and tax, and regulation … just take all the bureaucrats out of the circuit and let the exporters get on with it, and don’t then punish their success with tax on tax on tax on tax. Easy as that.
December 31st, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Gosh Les..you have me there…how does the BND work?…
December 31st, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Les : We relentlessly search for increased production / new products / innovation ; and to what end . Are you saying that we cannot be wealthy with what we have ? I say let’s look at the unaffordability of our welfare state . The need to hack into ACC’s all encompassing mandate ( $ 1 million plastic surgery for some clown , who blew his face off , when his P-lab went up !!! ) . To raise the retirement age , and means test it . Etc . ……… . Whenever we earn more , the gumnut of the day find ways to fritter it away , plus interest . ………… . And we are buggering up our water-ways , and stretching our energy production to the limit , to run on the spot .
December 31st, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Wally : BND = Bundesnachrichtendienst : That is the Federal Intelligence Service of Germany . Not sure why Les wants you to read up on them . The NZMEA do move in eccentric circles .
December 31st, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Ohhhh them…oh yeah I know all about them. Why would Les be into espionage?
December 31st, 2009 at 1:54 pm
If you can see sense in what Iain says , and Les can , you’re bound to be a bit spooky .
December 31st, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Wally – http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/12/18/top-10-at-10-gareth-morgan-targets-rbnz-for-reform-diversify-into-women-and-sheep-dilbert/comment-page-2/#comment-53599
Mark – yes, all for that, just need to rebalance taxation effectively, and remove the subsidisation of investment in passive assets land/property – yielding something in the low to mid-20’s; reduce size of state, yet more tax reduction.
Roger – lol. Being anti-growth isn’t the answer IMO.
December 31st, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Good one Les…a ‘Parker play’…never use a sentence when a dozen links will do!!!!
How does the BND work?…
December 31st, 2009 at 2:36 pm
just need to rebalance taxation effectively
No. Do away with it, given how ‘effectively’ taxation punishes hard work and risk taking.
December 31st, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Mark – sadly, abolishing tax it’ll never happen. So getting it lower and level is next best thing, IMO.
Wally – read only one or two of those links about BND, as you could have done last time I referred you, and you’d know and probably not be asking now.
Must sign off now, but will certainly check back on here, cheers, Les.
December 31st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Les : I am not anti-growth , per se . But more dairy farms ? More tourists ? ………. . We are up to our necks in both , and earning large sums from them , but what’s the point of more , if the scoundrels in parliament keep pissing it away . Abolish WINZ / ACC / IRD , and get the country prosperous and happy . Unshackle the burden of unproductive gumnut from us . Free the people . Ask of them to be responsible , not to cry to mama every time they get a little bump or bruise . Gett’em to wipe their own lily white arses . Nanny state got sent a’ packing !
( re : GFC / BND / TINA / TARA / CRUSPS / etc . Les , we forget your many abbreviations . Need to clarify them . )
December 31st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Link to an interview with the president of the Bank of North Dakota who explains how it works…
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/how-nation%E2%80%99s-only-state-owned-bank-became-envy-wall-street
and their own website,
http://www.banknd.nd.gov/about_BND/index.html
Cheers.
December 31st, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Rogie, bad weather gone – it seems to be sunny and warm in Loburn by now – agree.
December 31st, 2009 at 3:42 pm
FYI -
GFC- global financial collapse
BND- Bank of North Dakota
TINA- There Is No Alternative
anyone else?
CRUSPS-
TARA-
December 31st, 2009 at 3:44 pm
What bad weather , Walt ? It rained like buggery , yesterday : Bloody brilliant ! Good flush of pasture growth for the farmers , and it revitalized the wife’s roses . Happiness abounds ! Sunny today . Still no bees about . But the paint-brush pollination trick seems to have worked . …………… . How’d the tourists react to the Rare and Ancient Fish Slap Ceremony ? ……………Did you get a good herring . ? Separate the parsimonius sods from the lure of their Lira ? Get the mussel washing sour Krauts to give you good Marks ?
December 31st, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Roger, Martin – apologies, TARA, I defined somewhere here today, ‘there are reasonable alternatives’. TINA hates her.
CRUSPS-no idea what your’e talking about. You might mean CASPer,’complex adaptive system pragmatist.
C’mon, catch up. Have a good evening, Les.
December 31st, 2009 at 3:50 pm
FYI : Find Your Invertebrate ?
CASPer , yeah , that’s it ! Catch Another Slimey Politician ……….. Complex Adaptive wot ?
December 31st, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Nice thought Les but I do not see this economy being able to adopt a banking system used by a tiny North American state where the native people got the bums rush and the land was stolen.
December 31st, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Rogie,
Rare and Ancient Fish Slap Ceremony – No, not my cup of tea miss- using animals. Dead rabbit throw etc. ??? – what a nonsense.
Another “Hands in pockets Day” until after 5pm when all the “NoLiqueur shops” are closing and the hands are all over.
December 31st, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Wally – why? What are your reasons? Les.
December 31st, 2009 at 5:01 pm
I have spent a bit of time reading the links Iain provides and have tried to understand what Iain’s “system” would mean in practical terms. The links to Thomas Greco are worth reading. There’s a limit to what can be said in a short post. Social credit is a misnomer (hopefully) for what he advocates. Basically what he advocates (correct me if i am wrong Iain) is the removal of the monopoly on money by the removal of legal tender exclusivity to the soverign currency along with the ability for anyone to issue currency based on “sound money” principles, including the Government who could do so by building state houses, dams, roads (selling SOE’s!) etc. Using the internet it should be possible for for such a system to be introduced and with regular clearing/redemption via an exchange (and this is the role of the Government, since this role amounts to the protection of private property). When it comes to accepting payment then, it’s a case of buyer beware, but with an online system you could go online to check whether the butcher’s “sausage IOU’s” are good or not . . . . but what would the IRD accept?
Mark this seems to be compaitible with your laissez fair principles?
December 31st, 2009 at 5:23 pm
And remember that Keynes proposed a similar system at Bretton Woods (with an annual wash up) and it was rejected in favour of a single reserve currency backed by gold (forever, of course). In hindsight a case of misplaced trust.
December 31st, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Fred,
You can read “endless” articles about this issue under “Older Entries”.
Happy New Year
Walter
December 31st, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Roger ….ROGER….and I never moved my CAPS LOCK once…
Happy New Year….to the dedicated crew.
I must make a COMMENT….not a rant…ain’t really worth the effort.
NZ is mad, shot, stuffed if this is who we commemorate at New Year 2010.
HELL-EN???.
Is this the best we have….really???.
I rest my case.
We are DOOMED.
December 31st, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Hopefully in 2010 we see more women in charge of most everything to make a difference, because us male idiots are constantly over the cliff again and again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vCet60rr_s
Happy New Year
Walter
December 31st, 2009 at 6:50 pm
SORE – Man : NO idea HOW glad AM I too have YOU BAAAAAAAAAAAAck
HAd too stanD in AN imPROVISE a RANT in abseNTia of the MAEStro ,
Himself : GOOD you . Sir .
And the HonuraBLE Iain : DID’na buy-IT
“EE new a RING in , froM the REEL thing !!!
And the LoveRLLY . HELEn hasGONE Grey’n .
No moore kNEED to fool the PROterlialat , with that : Posters of
( 2005 ) GorgeoUS Jung thing .
Back Too reeality : As YOU & ME
UGG – lee : as can BEE
Foot note
IN Hystery !
( lovE & piEce : two THEE )
WAKEY WAKEY low-life KIWI Tax_PAYing furls : “appy newYEAR
December 31st, 2009 at 7:37 pm
I suspect more than a few bottles have been emptied already!…Les, you know jolly well what the reasons are. Now stop with the silly pipe dreams and start applying your brainpower to sorting out how to get the fools in the Beehive to bring an end to the ponzi scheme economy. Personally I doubt there will be any changes that are more than a lick of paint and a bit of new spin but if I am right then this country is really buggered.
December 31st, 2009 at 7:54 pm
…”Beehive…ponzi scheme….lick of paint…bit of new spin….” must be readying it for the upcoming Spring selling season.
December 31st, 2009 at 8:13 pm
AEP’s Latest – Eurozone credit contraction accelerates…
Bank loans and the M3 money supply in the eurozone contracted at an accelerating pace in November, raising the risk that a lending squeeze will choke the region’s fragile recovery next year.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/6913074/Eurozone-credit-contraction-accelerates.html
January 1st, 2010 at 6:07 am
Wally – “…. you know jolly well what the reasons are.”
No, I don’t. So again, why? What are your reasons? In regard to and saying, “..I do not see this economy being able to adopt a banking system used by a tiny North American state…”
Thanks, Les.
January 1st, 2010 at 7:44 am
The reasons for Les(apologies to others bored by this):
North Dakota pop 600ooo. Residents mostly occupied in agriculture or related service industry. Stable economy in surplus. No historical social debts such as a ‘Waitangi Settlement’ hanging over the budget. No foreign loan debts.
NZ on the other hand has been through decades of social unrest with never ending conflict between social sectors and poorly managed by govts determined to stay in power on vote buying schemes. Rightly or wrongly it is stuck with the Waitangi debt burden. Huge amounts are owed to foreign lenders and the household debt levels are beyond the serious point. We have a fiscal deficit set to become far worse. The size of the public debt is growing by about 1 billion a month. The export sector is pretty well at capacity as far as the use of resources is concerned and has become dependent on market prices for basic commodities. Investment has been misdirected into a property speculative bubble and there is no sign the govt will end this stupidity any time soon.
But Les Rudd thinks the problems stem from the cost of credit and that a fusion between the IRD and Kiwibank with legislation passed to destroy the trading banks and pass the management of the money supply from the RBNZ to the politicians would somehow save the country, wipe away the debts and bring wealth to us all. Pure humbug.
January 1st, 2010 at 8:17 am
That is right isn’t it Les…you are a supporter of the social credit/public credit/BND/Parker system…you do want an end to the RBNZ and its ‘independent’ role in managing the money supply…???
January 1st, 2010 at 9:01 am
Dr Steve Keen – Engineers vs. Economists (part 1 of 3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMw1cEZ1UAM&feature=related
January 1st, 2010 at 9:05 am
We don’t all get U tube TC!
January 1st, 2010 at 9:44 am
That’s a pity, Wally.
Here’s something to ponder:
How much profit has the financial sector made from financing our debt?
Wouldn’t it be great if we could abolish or at least reduce that cost?
January 1st, 2010 at 9:48 am
How much benefit to the country has accrued from using debt to build and maintain infrastructure ; and to construct and expand businesses ? As if all debt is bad !!!
January 1st, 2010 at 10:15 am
It seems you’ve missed the point, Roger.
It’s not that all debt is bad; it’s about abolishing or at least reducing the associated cost of that debt.
The associated cost is unproductive, inflationary, and thus detrimental to the overall economy.
Moreover, profits predominantly head offshore, short-changing our economy of much needed productive capital.
January 1st, 2010 at 10:35 am
Nonsense TC. The profits from lending capital to entities in NZ could stay on shore if we had a climate of saving and not splurging. You fail to understand, money is a commodity that has a price if you want to use some that does not belong to you.
January 1st, 2010 at 11:19 am
Exactly Wally. Money currently does have a price and the return associated to the cost of money is being maximised. Therefore, we need to abolish or do our best to reduce it.
The reason why we are able to sustain (over the short-term) a climate of “splurging” comes back to maximising the return on selling debt – i.e. “easy credit”.
There’s a conflict, the more debt that’s sold, the larger the return. This conflict needs to be addressed.
January 1st, 2010 at 11:40 am
Of course the price of money(credit) is being maximised. I stash my cash for just 3 months at 5% with a Govt guarantee…why would I put it in a bank for 3%..I am not a borrower of other peoples money to finance a lifestyle I cannot afford. People do not have to borrow. They choose to. If the cost of the credit is cheap, more will be encouraged to borrow. That’s where your idea falls on its face. If you ” abolish or do your best to reduce it..(the price of credit)”…demand will shoot up. What do you do then?…You have to ration the supply having established a ceiling to the price and encouraged excessive demand…basic econ 101…that’s where the social credit idea meets political corruption…credit would be allocated according to electorate! or the colour of your eyes…by guess whom?..your social credit mp…who else!
January 1st, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Not at all, Wally. (Fall flat on its face).
The volume of credit needs to be undamaging to the overall economy, thus matched by an increase in production (unbiased prudent lending).
To stem the increase in demand for credit while also boosting savings, higher deposits would be required.
Regardless of what system you have, someone will have to approve the loan; we need to remove the fiscal conflict of interest. We totally lessen the moral hazard by removing the fiscal incentive.
Loans should be based on the applicant’s ability to repay the loan and the assets being put forward as security – not on the associated bonus or political flavour. Moreover, lending should be balanced to prevent bubbles.
With lower overall inflationary pressures as a result, interest rates on savings wouldn’t need to be high to prevent inflation eating away your return.
January 1st, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Just one minor point here TC….who would the “we” be in this plan of yours. Who is making the decisions. ?
January 1st, 2010 at 3:41 pm
I understand your apprehension, Wally. Everyone is open to corruption. Therefore, it’s about setting up a system that addresses the vested interest and moral hazards that currently exists – without creating new ones in the process.
January 1st, 2010 at 5:59 pm
If everyone is open to corruption, you will never be able to set up a system to prevent it…or do you intend havind a special police force with special powers to root out the corruption….and if so how will you stop them from being corrupt? Face reality TC, the system we have is bent and full of holes but at least we don’t have little Hitlers telling us what we may do with our savings or how we must behave if we are to be allowed a loan. My capital is out of the country because I have a right to invest where I wish. Obviously you think I should be controlled by some prick in wgtn, with a social credit sticker for a brain. And you fail to answer my question….who would the “we” be in this plan of yours?
January 1st, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Short memory there , Wally : Recall that Michael Cullen did behave as an arrogant little Hitler , and that the shonky draconian rules he slapped on us are still in force . Tweedle-Bill and Tweedle-Key have not repealed them . Such as the deemed rate of return on overseas investments . ……….. . Not so long ago that pensioners were penalised by a ” deemed rate of return ” on their savings . And the arses in Wellington set the rate higher than bank term deposit rates available at the time . ……. .And that probably proves your point , why risk adding more corruption and incompetence to the system .
And as part of the global business world , Chairman , profits don’t just go offshore , some comes into NZ too . If that wasn’t so , we would’ve gone down the plug-hole long before Iceland did .
January 1st, 2010 at 6:42 pm
Two sycophants out to emulate the great one.
January 2nd, 2010 at 8:59 am
Wally – No system will ever be perfect. However, the current system is severely flawed.
Personal fiscal incentive to rort the system is the most prominent, hence must be addressed.
Addressing this moral hazard alone will drastically limit the temptation – without having to introduce a special police force.
January 2nd, 2010 at 10:08 am
I said predominantly, Roger. Offhand, I think the “big 4” alone took away around $11 billion last year so we’re talking vast sums.
It’s been called our largest export loss.
The overrepresentation of foreign ownerships of lucrative sectors sees (in total) around $17 billion head offshore.
With the opening of ACC and Corrections, we’re bound to see more head offshore.
Although we haven’t fallen over just yet, you’ll find there is a lot of similarity between us an Iceland.
January 2nd, 2010 at 10:46 am
Answer the question TC. Who would the “we” be?
January 2nd, 2010 at 11:01 am
The people, Wally. Run by the state. We remove all fiscal and vested interests, put in place a bipartisan lending formula, and insure it’s adhered to by ensuring there is accountability and transparency within the system.
The biggest problem we face is the status quo won’t permit it. They’ll put a gun to your head before they’ll let you take away the chicken that lays the golden egg.
January 2nd, 2010 at 11:15 am
“The people, Wally. Run by the state. We remove all fiscal and vested interests, put in place a bipartisan lending formula, and insure it’s adhered to by ensuring there is accountability and transparency within the system”….haaaaaaarhahahahaha
Careful TC, “we” can see your Trotskys…..!
January 2nd, 2010 at 11:42 am
Wally – blast, I’ve run out of time, nevermind. There’s always tomorrow, or the day after. Go on, upgrade your PC. Be nice to yourself. Capitalism will fail if we stop spending, you don’t want that do you? (Apologies for the loaded question, can’t think where I picked that up from….) Cheers, Les.
January 2nd, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Upgrade!…no way…this old dunga does all I need…and I have my mark one apple notebook as back up…the loot needed to upgrade a year ago was invested in copper shares and has more than doubled in value. The upgrade I would have bought back then is now out of date!…
January 2nd, 2010 at 12:40 pm
Something to ponder:
Remittances by banks in New Zealand to their overseas owners climbed from $3.8 billion in 2000, to 4.6 billion in 2004, and then began climbing steeply: $6 billion in 2005; $7.8 billion in 2006; $9.1 billion in 2007 and $11.7 billion last year.
In the last ten years, personal lending has almost doubled, from $60 billion to $105 billion.
1% extra interest added $787 million to costs for New Zealand businesses; and 1% higher margin on loans added $460 million to the net interest costs to the farming sector.
The biggest cost was in the housing sector: 1% extra interest cost added over $1.6 billion to mortgage repayments.
http://www.progressive.org.nz/latestnews/files/category-newsletters.html
http://www.progressive.org.nz/latestnews/files/tag-interest-rates.html
January 2nd, 2010 at 1:20 pm
And what solutions do you have TC?
January 2nd, 2010 at 2:08 pm
As stated above, Wally, put in place a far more robust system, one that removes or at least limits the vested interests and the moral hazards.
We made not be able to bring about all the changes necessary but we should at least be able to reach a consensus in the direction we need to take and try to work together (breaking-down the political barriers) to achieve the overall objective.
The power of the vote still carries some weight in bringing about change and a consensus ensures the numbers.
Like you Wally, I don’t live beyond my means but that doesn’t mean we aren’t paying the price for it (others living beyond their means).
What would you recommend we do?
January 2nd, 2010 at 2:35 pm
Just an obsevation TC, but whenever a ‘vested interest’ is removed, another one, (if not the same one in disguise!) emerges. ‘Dike’ and ‘finger’ come to mind….
January 2nd, 2010 at 2:43 pm
The thing is TC, when you say…”we should at least be able to reach a consensus in the direction we need to take..”..you are entering into the fantasy world.
What we have in the way of poor govt and shoddy economic management is a reflection of the people we are. I suggest you carry on living within your means and if you have kids, they will learn what they wish to learn. If we are to end up in a state of economic misery for decades to come, it would be wise to get your wealth out of NZ asap. Count on it being stolen by the govt one way or another. You will be taxed every which way and the dollar will be devalued on the world market. There is no other pathway ahead. This “power of the vote” you speak of is a myth because the govts buy all the votes they need using the power to steal and dish out the pork. That is where a social/public credit idea lands on its arse. The govt would not hesitate to corrupt the system to remain in power. The only difference would be, you would lose most of your financial civil rights.
January 2nd, 2010 at 3:18 pm
I fully acknowledge that, Nicholas, however that’s why we need to remove the fiscal incentive. When there is no money to be made, opportunists soon lose interest.
Wally – When the ship is sinking as bad as ours it doesn’t matter what deck your on. At best you are only prolonging the inevitable. There is nowhere to run from globalisation. I hear the elite are buying islands.
The power of the vote has worked before and can work again (that’s if we don’t reduce Government away, looks around for Mark) but I concur government has become a representation of voter ignorance. I blame the media; they have failed to hold Government to account.
You seem to have a grasp on where things are headed and I appreciate the heads-up but I don’t understand how you can accept it.
January 4th, 2010 at 9:44 am
‘Fast and Funny’ – your 7.44am on 1st; it’s a good job I asked, because I certainly didn’t, “know jolly well what the reasons are”, that you thought, I thought. As for your dismissal of “Pure humbug.” to round off your reasoning as to why NZ would not be an appropriate environment to adopt the BND approach for Kiwibank, you say:
ND has a stable economy with surplus – yep, and having read the evidence you will see this outcome is supported by the approach they use. So because we have a deficit, we better not try it, eh, wot?
ND’s “Residents mostly occupied in agriculture or related service industry” – Eh, wot? Wally, you need to get out more.
We have debt, three types, two of which they don’t it seems. Yep, I guess that is a really good reason not to try an approach that is attributed with having been part responsible for ensuring their healthy debt position.
NZ’s, “…export sector is pretty well at capacity…” and, “investment has been misdirected into a property speculative bubble and there is no sign the govt will end this stupidity…” And? That’s the point of suggesting KB is capitalised better, to support business and export sector development, (as BND support their business sector) thus helping to rebalance investment flows between tradeables and non-tradeables – because we don’t need that do we?
NZ has experienced, “…social unrest with never ending conflict between social sectors…” Maybe North Dakota just breezed on through two world wars, The Depression and the ‘Global Financial Crisis’. Hang on, I think they did in the latter case – which is one reason why the model is getting attention – and evidently by other US states, check the references I gave you. As for never ending conflict between social sectors, wot? Anyway, if ND has had less, it’d be interesting to know why – perhaps more support for the approach. As if there isn’t enough support (sorry, factual evidence) already.
All funny Wally, but this next bit was hysterical, well on your part I think:
“….with legislation passed to destroy the trading banks and pass the management of the money supply from the RBNZ to the politicians…” Have trading banks been destroyed in North Dakota? Nope.
Who said anything about passing management of money supply from RBNZ to politcians? Not me. I’d rather see RBNZ more in control of managing the money supply, by the actually issuing some of it as ‘public credit’ in conjunction with Treasury and ministries to fund (monetarize the productivity) associatted with public works – which could be done without run-away inflation*, political jerrymandering; but instead with appropriate policy, ‘public private partnershships’ (someone give Chairman CPR) and variation to RBNZ’s PTA. Hence a ‘mixed’ money supply system, as per North Dakota, but one step further, as has evidently worked in the past, here and abroad. (I gave you the references, plus see Iain’s blog.) If it wasn’t for the EVIDENCE I would be interested in this approach.
It appears that little of what you said provides any substansive reason to dismiss the idea as invalid, or humbug – indeed lol. However, as we track the subsequent joust with Chairman, we come to see, possibly, the real reason for your resistance – distrust of government and pervasive central planning. (Which would not have been possible with the, “sorry Les just let’s leave it, there is no alternative,” or TINA approach to debate you seemed more content with.) Somehow this seems so ironic given you pillory goverment for exhibiting similar … dogma, fear of change, laziness, comfort in the status quo? Who better though than TC to help crystallise the reason for your resistance, with TC supporting. ‘Left-wing Utopias and [you supporting] Free Market Fantasies.’ All the while both probably wondering what a sphere might look like in that kind of two-dimensional, non-complex world – hard to imagine eh?
IMO, your apparent reason (distrust of government and pervasive central planning) doesn’t invalidate the idea we are discussing, especially given the positive evidence in support of it. However, it does, or should IMO, open up a debate that is just as useful, and that is, distrust of government and it’s institutions. I think that would be a debate worth having, as I do sympathise with your reasoning at that point. As I’m sure TC will also attest, given I’ve had similar jousts about trying to find the line between central planning and free-markets, in other contexts. I have to say TC as you know you also frighten me, with what seems like an appetite for wanting ever more control, and central planning to pervade and pervade. Little wonder you and those from the ‘Left-wing Utopia’ should find so much resistance to employing a degree of central planning that can demonstrate a benefit, because when given an inch it seems you’ll be wanting to take a mile, my light bulbs and showerheads! No one wants that, get over it.
So Wally, a useful debate to have at some point is, how to improve trust in government and it’s institutions. I think I’d be referring to John Kay’s ‘Culture and Prosperity’ (book review on the Events page of MEA website), and I’d want to discuss MMP, 3 year electoral cycles, improvements to the select committee approach, a shrunken parliament, but with a second house – a real one, not something that was out of place to UK’s southern most ‘home county’ that could knock out some cheap lamb-chops and butter to bolster supply from the other counties. All that kind of stuff, etc, etc.
Your 8,17am on 1st – see above, and I have to say the idea of ‘the social credit’ does kinda go against the grain, as does a lot of the benefit system we have. In fact I was somewhat taken aback when GM went on about his ‘Big Kahuna’, which is another idea, IMO, not to be dismissed out of hand. But as for ‘the social credit’, I find it hard to hack the idea of people just plucking money off ‘The Moneytree’ for nothing – so we better just leave that as the preserve of the banks, because we can trust them, can’t we?
* http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/12/29/summer-chart-series-why-consumer-confidence-is-indicating-a-spending-surge-in-2010/comment-page-1/#comment-54397