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Govt to allow NZ Transport Agency to borrow money for 'intergenerational roading projects,' rather than current pay-as-you-go model

Posted in Bonds Updated
See video

The New Zealand Transport Agency will be allowed to use borrowed money to pay for roading projects under changes mooted by Minister of Transport Gerry Brownlee. 

Currently, roading projects are funded through a pay-as-you-go model as the Agency spends fuel taxes and other registration revenues as they come in.

But the Land Transport Management Amendment Bill, tabled by Brownlee in Parliament yesterday, would "enable borrowing to be used by the New Zealand Transport Agency to fund future land transport projects, subject to the agreement of the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Finance," it says in the Bill's explanatory note.

"Currently, borrowing can only be used to manage the cash flow of the national land transport programme," it says in the note.

Labour and the Greens have attacked the move, saying it showed the government was struggling to fund the NZ$8.7 billion required for its 2009-2012 Land Transport Programme, which was dominated by the Roads of National Significance (RoNS) projects.

'Good way to fund intergenerational projects'

Ken Shirley, the CEO of road transport industry group the Land Transport Forum, told National Radio on Wednesday morning that the current model was suitable for minor projects, and for renewal and maintenance of existing road infrastructure.

"But it’s not an ideal funding model for long-term major intergenerational projects," Shirley said.

“One of the consequences of this ambitious programme [RoNS] is that it’s sucking all the available money, and has flat-lined funding for renewal and maintenance. We want the big projects, and we need the big projects, but we have to also maintain what we have.”

See Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee answering questions on the move in the video below:

We welcome your help to improve our coverage of this issue. Any examples or experiences to relate? Any links to other news, data or research to shed more light on this? Any insight or views on what might happen next or what should happen next? Any errors to correct?

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113 Comments

So the world wide rate of

So the world wide rate of growth in the population is falling and will turn negative in a generation, but Mr Brownlee in his wisdom want this ever decreasing pool of people to some how magically fund his fantasy highways.
 
But as long as some fool is willing to make the loans that we will default on, I guess transport infrastructure isn't the worst way of doing it. Be better in a rail and canal network throughout the country complemented by small coastal shipping.
 

Actually I think roads is the

Actually I think roads is the worst way, but you are right I expect we will default...
 
regards

Well the roads can still be

Well the roads can still be used by bicycles. I keep trying to imagine Brownlee on one.

Chuckle.   It won't get too

Chuckle.
 
It won't get too far, events will overtake (maybe events should have a special lane?).

Except it robs us of time and

Except it robs us of time and leaves us with debt....now if the money was going on renewable energy projects, OK....ie something uselful.
regards

You mean those renewable

You mean those renewable energy projects that are losing money hand over fist worldwide and requiring government bailouts?  When an investment loses money it means you are wasting resources.  On that basis many renewable energy projects are more wasteful than fossil fuels could ever hope to be. 

"When an investment loses

"When an investment loses money it means you are wasting resources".
 
Bollocks.
 
Where did you get that from? You need to understand what money is (a proxy, no more, for the purchase of something in the future) versus what real resources are.
 
The problem is that money doesn't value things properly, and at this stage in proceedings, is hopelessly out of it's capability to do so.
 
http://www.ibtimes.com/partnernet/finance/chris-martenson-the-trouble-with-money_157.htm
 
Whether profit is taken or not, has diddly-squat to do with whether a particular action will ensure that a viable planet can be handed on to future generations. Indeed - as with a viable ETS, if one existed - the likelihood is that the valid course of action will render you 'poorer'.
 
Where do folk get this nonsense from? Did you do economics too?

Worse, they did Von-mises

Worse, they did Von-mises economics and other libertarian loopy web sites...
regards

No, because you ignore

No, because you ignore resiliance and long term outlook and care of a nation which is the duty of a Govn. 
Also many Govns subsidize private company development for instance the US Govn throws billions at US arms manufacturers to develop more weapons to kill arabs or iranians on a camels...the point of that is what?
Many fossil fuel projects or projects that expect a cheap input of fossil fuels will be going bankrupt in the next decade or so.  No point in putting in more roads with a 50 year life span to take more traffic when inside 10 years many of us will be no longer able to afford to drive a petrol powered car....
Just because a stupid spent too much on a project and didnt get the return they expected does not make the resource a waste....when its sold at a firesale price the new owner will make a decent living.
regards
 
 
 

Laughable.....more

Laughable.....more roads....now if we were building real infrastructure, OK I oculd see that might be an option, but not more roads.
regards

Best place for effort - the

Best place for effort - the debt won't be repaid, so the accounting is sort of irrelevant - is future-proofing current housing. We can't replace more than a fraction, so it has to be retro-fit.
 
We're already triaging roading - how much seal is reverting to gravel p.a.?

The upgrading of roads and

The upgrading of roads and the RoNS projects are actually good things - but borrowing to pay for them is certainly questionable.
However of all those that consider borrowing for roads a bad idea, how many would be prepared to pay tolls? Certainly a viable option for the funding of roads and used by other countries a lot more than ever seems to have been contemplated by NZ.

Albert H - the money to pay

Albert H - the money to pay the toll, would come from the expending of fossil fuels.
 
See the problem?

Sorry, I don't quite see

Sorry, I don't quite see how... The consumer who purchases 'fossil fuels' to operate their vehicle also pays the toll to use the road, I wasn't aware that one paid for the other. Maybe you could explain?

Impact on the Nation in terms

Impact on the Nation in terms of cost to provid ethe infrastructure....
So you would do a road because it benefits GDP, the cheapest way is for the Govn to borrow or pay as you go....this gives the best economic return to the Nation as there is cheaper lending and no profit and costs....
Those costs are money which is a proxy for energy....so labour to collect tolls has an energy expenditure for one.
regards

So once the infrastructure is

So once the infrastructure is in place, what would the ongoing costs be? A system that is largely provided electronically wouuld require minimal labour once it is in place.
How is the best economic return to the nation provided by a plan that has no profit? User pays, not the taxpayer as would happen both in the pay-as-you-go and the borrowing (servicing of the interest incurred).
 

Ongoing costs would be

Ongoing costs would be monopoly rent, interest payments on the capital borrowed and actually the cost of the IT equipment is actually significant., IT isnt cheap.  The actual cost to build and repair it whether public or private should be minimal. Although in saying that a public road could be built to last say 50 years economically.  A private company may only get a 30 year lease so they will build the road to last 30....long term that is a waste/impact on the country.
The idea as in no profit on the road is that businesses make the profit as their overheads are lower, they dont pay monopolistically derived charges to use it.....there is still profit its just made elsewhere by others.
So say we have 50 small businesses, they all enjoy infrastructure in this case the road at minimal cost so its easier to enter a market and operate in it....etc etc.
I guess its a case of you having to look at the bigger picture and not just the one thing. Everything is interlinked and has a cost and impact on other things...
regards
 

Again we have this private

Again we have this private company argument, how many roads are owned by private companies in NZ? And of them, how many are toll roads?

AH - for sure. (Others here

AH - for sure. (Others here will yawn!)
 
Money either is, or isn't, underwritten by something real. If you got an inflated 'valuation' of an existing property, borrowed on the basis of that, and 'spent' it on tolls, you didn't actually pay anything. Economists have trouble with that, but it's a negative pig
 
http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/81/the_crisis.html
 
Only payment in 'positive pigs' (something real done) eventually counts. Anything real needs work to be done, which requires energy to be expended. You can track global energy, plonk in an efficiency factor, and get a fair handle on how much of the wealth is underwritten in real terms.
 
The rest is debt, sooner or later irredeemable (as we are seeing globally now).
 
I put this up this morning, but read it well:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/chris-martenson-trouble-money
 
few get it. I suspect less want to get it, and a lot have stuff riding on it not being true. Won't change the 'actual' of it.
 
 

ah 12.41 - the maintenance

ah 12.41 - the maintenance isn't the ticketing, it's the oil-based bitumen, oil-driven trucks and diggers........

How simply dreadful, perhaps

How simply dreadful, perhaps you could come up with alternative and cost effective alternatives to the oil-based substances so necessary to the project?
In the long run, the roads are going to be made and this is actually a matter of how they are paid for effectively and fairly... not about what they are made out of and what drives the machinery that makes them.

sad reply.   Translated:  At

sad reply.
 
Translated:  At some price, we will always find an alternative. (Money is somehow superior to real stuff, and will somehow force it's creation. And in exponentially--increasing quantities too, I presume?).
 
I have studied the EROEI of alternative energy sources since '75, designed my first solar/efficient house in '83, built it '87, and this one '05. Built and developed my own efficient appliances, and power system. I'm a past co-chair of Solar Action (non-profit lobby) and a champion of renewables. Just cleared the debris from my pelton-intake, in the last half-hour.
 
but
 
The time to morph from oil, was before peak supply-rate. You simply have to use the existing, pre-peak, to effect the morph. We haven't found any successor to oil, yet this is a classic example of us creating an even-bigger oil-based (and oil-for-maintenance-requiring) infrastructure.
 
Blind reliance on money always providing more and more for ever and ever, only worked until it didn't.
 
http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/135743/time-now-fireside-chat
 
 

Funny how it is always

Funny how it is always 'other' people that have to come up with alternatives to oil.

I suppose the reason to that

I suppose the reason to that would be that some of us aren't actually concerned about using oil... Those people that are, should be the ones who come up with an alternative - yes or yes?

No, your lack of knowledge on

No, your lack of knowledge on your use of oil is par for the course....and sadly, you are wrong.  Just about everything you do/buy consumes fossil fuel somewhere in the system and probably quite a lot.
regardsd
 

It really is an astoundingly

It really is an astoundingly stupid comment, head in the sand material.

There are no cost effective

There are no cost effective and scalable alternatives to fossil fuel....hence the likes of me and indeed most in here wont have a car inside a decade. Hence in the medium run, we dont need any more roads.
regards
 

Would the tolls be that high

Would the tolls be that high that you need to borrow to pay them? If you were on the minimum wage for an eight hour day, you would need to go through the toll road about 50 times before it had a negative effect on your pocket. (based on driving a car with a toll incurred of $2.20 each time) Even then, I'm sure you would be able to negotiate a high-volume discount.
I may not have caught your drift but then, I'm almost certain you didn't catch mine...

Tolls suggests private

Tolls suggests private investment that wants to see a profit and they have to borrow at a higher rate and they need ppl or systems to collect that toll, 3 whammies over the Govn funding it.
Some of the numbers I think I came across was if its private funded then the bill is 50%+ more than if its Govn funded....
However I'd be happy with that as I'd then not have to cough it up as a tax payer....user pays....then the company goes bankrupt...
 
regards
 
 

So what's the problem?  If

So what's the problem?  If roads are provided privately at a higher (I would say more accurate) cost, this surely means there will be fewer of them.  Isn't this what you want? 

Not more accurate.....less,

Not more accurate.....less, the true cost or accurate cost is the cost to build minus profit and any borrowing costs to get the capital. Also if you have the only road then you have a monolpoly and can charge accordingly...
ie the problem is a privately funded road costs more in terms of GDP.
A classic example is public v private healthcare, the latter is twice the cost of the former and delivers a worse outcome on a natioanl basis.
That doesnt mean some ppl cant have private healthcare just as long as there is a public alternative.  Same can apply to roads, except of course if you build 2 roads thats twice the materials waste......
regards

In most places in NZ there

In most places in NZ there are and would be alternative routes anyhow, there would be no need to build two roads...
And where did this idea come from that the roads would be privately funded?

See the heading.... regards

See the heading....
regards

OK, I'm still missing

OK, I'm still missing something vital... Please show me the part that indicates privately owned companies: Govt to allow NZ Transport Agency to borrow money for 'intergenerational roading projects,' rather than current pay-as-you-go model

With the power infrastructure

With the power infrastructure going mixed model like in Aussi, I can't see the roading systems (toll roads) being any different (ie like some Aussi projects).  Although like in Aussi, investors might find getting out of a deal with the devil a bit harder than they'd like/been promised.
I think this mixed model stuff was all in one of Martin Hawe's books.  Probably a recent read for the gubbermint types.

So does the Northern Gateway

So does the Northern Gateway Toll Road have private investors then?
The government has sucessful systems in place to operate this road, a system that could simply be duplicated across other roads. The cost of the system woud be one-off for every road the toll was added to (physical maintenance shouldn't be high) and an ongoing income stream would result.
So do you not travel that you would not be a user of these roads? I am sure your non-usage of any toll road wouldn't cause any great loss to anyone...

oneoff cost?  Yeah right.

oneoff cost?  Yeah right.  Thigns like that (Income tax for example) have a habit of staying around once the minister get used to the extra spending power (which means more staff, better influence, more bargining chips, and more wages and power)

The one-off cost would be the

The one-off cost would be the initial cost of the system for every road it is installed on... I'm not meaning that tolls would be one-off. There really is no comparison between income tax and tolls.

Yes there is....its the

Yes there is....its the pretty much the same thing. You pay a sum of money into the Govn coffers and in return get services or an insurance policy type thing ie in case of need.  A road toll is paying for a service....really there is no difference.....Either could be publically or privately funded.
regards

The tolling system on the

The tolling system on the northern motorway sucks.  It is an ideologically driven system where you can only pay electronically.  No lane with a toll booth or device where you can zoom past and toss in $2 or whatever and go on your way with minimum incovenience and time wasting.
So you have choices like: maintain a mimimum balance with NZTA to pay for tolls (for which they don't give you interest) or pay over the internet by credit card (NZTA giving money to the banks) or by mobile phone (ditto plus to the telephone company) or by a usually working slot machine at either end.  Costs more to use the slot machine, plus takes way longer than the estimated 5 minutes travel time saving (in good conditions) that the motorway provides compared with the old route.  It penalises anyone poor or old who doesn't have internet (yes there are lots of suc people0 as there is a premium on the use of slot machine.
Ironic that one of benefits of the motorway being built is reduced travel time when the toll system takes ups more time than is saved.
 

considering the limit of

considering the limit of roads in NZ traffic and destination wise, you could add your "toll" on to the purchase cost of road fuels.... oh wait......
 
Seriously Brownlee.
Yes borrowing is good for large projects.  But whats stopping future Ministers and departments getting in deep like the councils have???   Spending "intergenerational" money to cover 'must have now' projects until not only have they spent todays "pay as you go" but tomorrows "intergenerational debt resource".  Are you really that determined to be the next Greece or Spain?   they have some lovely roads.... guess where a bunch of their money went, so they could drive their imported cars on nice roads.... how many cars does NZ make (vs import)?
Such borrowing should only be used on projects that need huge upfront capital, and have real ca$h the money returns into pockets.   (Not save money that people don't spend by smoothing out corners, or reducing travel time in places where travel time is marginal (ie no actual $ returned into the bank to pay your debt)).  While the superhighway straight from Ak to Wgtn -might- qualify, it still won't offer real cash to pay debts.  It won't even reduce spending in the near term to covering servicing costs.

Have you looked at the cost

Have you looked at the cost benefit ratios of each of the roads of national significance or seen the way NZTA had to manipulate those ratios (eg longer payback time, add in intangibles)?  
If so you would know that the holiday highway and Wellington motorway stuff and probabaly the Hamilton expressway cost more than the benefits received.  Which ius why the government refuses to put such projects through the treasury's system of assesing major capital expenditure.
This government is once again demonstrating that they lack any sense of responsibility when it comes to public spending.  
The breathtaking hypocrisy of the whole thing though, you have to sort of admire that.

Stupid.  A policy change like

Stupid.  A policy change like this is so dumb.  If you can't afford your standard of living then borrow. 

Yep..... regards

Yep.....
regards

Totally agree, this

Totally agree, this "intergenerational projects" call is pure spin. Borrowing to pay for big projects would have some merit if, and only if there was no future intergenerational infrastructure required. What really happens is we have on-going stuff that we need to pay for as well as the legacy debt from the previous stuff. All we're doing is lining the pockets of the international financiers.
With the cash flow central and local governments enjoy there is no valid reason to borrow for roads and other infrastructure. Have you ever heard a politician say "we've got all the stuff we need now, we can clear up this debt", all they do is dream up some "vital project" and dress it up with this intergenerational nonsense and expect us to swallow it.

The trouble is that strategy

The trouble is that strategy actually works......until it doesn't.

Who will stop the

Who will stop the megalomaniac’s in this country - driving the majority of the NZpopulation, tax- and ratepayers into bankruptcy ?

Updated with videos of

Updated with videos of English and Brownlee on it.

I'm surprised no one's

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Think Big yet.

Tch tch ...  you really must

Tch tch ...  you really must pay attention in class !
 
..... the national cycleway was the Jolly Kid & the Gnat's  " Think Big " project ......
 
Any idea how they're getting on with it ?

The good news is Powerupkiwi

The good news is Powerupkiwi we will never run out of oil.Rest easy in bed tonight PK
with the fact that we will never run out. Bitumen dont u love the smell there doing the
roads up around us at the moment carnt bet the smell.behind my house they are laying
nice bitumen paths around the golf course walk ways between the green and tees just
beautiful.Reminds me of the film Apocalypse Now when the soilder shouts out Napalm
I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.
Baz

http://www.energybulletin.net

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-08-13/comments-bp-statistical-review-2012
Better to refrain
And to be thought a fool
than to post such drivel
and remove all doubt.

BP is amazing! we used a lot

BP is amazing! we used a lot but we have even more now!!!! no worries we can keep doing that every year....
LOL.
 
regards..
 
 
 

Be interesting to know if

Be interesting to know if they fund these folk:
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/about/policy-impact.html
Which is where thas spin paper that went viral throughout the NZ media, originated.
One wonders at the faculty dyslexia - or is that cognitive dissonance? - given the Climate Change efforts in tandem with the 'oil glut'.
It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

Its true Oil is never going

Its true Oil is never going to run out,you have built your life around the hope it will run out
I love the stuff makes the world go round
Baz

Who said it will run out? (as

Who said it will run out? (as the main issue?)  It will sort of in about 2050 ~ 2060 mind you...ie so little left it wont be worth getting.
But that isnt the point of peak oil...the point is that at peak oil we have the maximum production rate per day possible. So at that point you cant get any more per day and with a classic supply and demand curve rising demand means the price will go up. Up to the point ppl cant afford it (and neither can the economy sustain it) then you have a recession....we had one in 2008, we are going into one now....
Sure it makes the world go around, so when its gone what will us, our children, grandchidren and our great grandchidren use?
camels? donkeys?
oh dear....
regards

the production rate can still

the production rate can still go up.  of oil related products (thinned with bio-fuels) etc.  It's that the cost increases rapidly per unit,  so unless something makes demand suddenly shoot up to get premium prices then there is not enough market demand.   It also means that the wholesale suppliers are likely to ration their stocks, to increase value for existing holdings rather than deflate their market (eg they're smart enough not to flood their market with overproduction and suppress prices, unlike the dairy industry giants.)

No, Mist, you're upside

No, Mist, you're upside down.
 
The money paid (your precious 'price') needs to be based on something real, therefore on energy being expended.
 
Don't continue to make the mistake that money somehow overrides real resources. Yes, the players will do as you say (they probably think no further, and even if they did, have no room to change given their obligations to shareholders) but they have to hit the wall of lack of underwrite globally. What they are 'paid', can't be worth anything (ex backing by energy-expenditure, it has to be debt) when they come to on-spend it.
 
So not only do we not get real growth, we get inflation-driving bidding for dwindling resources.
 
Biofuels are clutched-at straws - they displace existing land-uses in all but algae cases, and don't scale.
The more you push the current production rate of a finite resource, the steeper the fall-off. The area under a graph is the area under a graph, regardless of 'value'.
 
 

What is a cup of water worth

What is a cup of water worth PDK?

A desert has plenty of free energy, but the water is costly.

And there is nothing wrong with displacing existing land-use.  Market will reflect that, as the existing land-prices will readjust towards their proper value.  Also as those sustainable fuels (or at least in the short term, the renewable fuels) become more price effective ... ie other prices will be pushed towards them as supply gets tougher, then they will gain market acceptance and alternatives to existing supply lines will evolve, just as the blood supply in an athlete tends to adapt.  At the moment reduction in road freight is not particularily effective, but as petroleum fuel goes up another dollar at the pump over the next 4-4.5 years, rail projects and local produce will be more cost effective (logistic vs distributive cost.  Of course if the government keeps pushing up the hirage costs, then distributive "hirage-positive" models will also be priced out of the market.
 
In fact, looking at fuel costs, the Roads Of National Sufferance should just about be hitting maximum debt potential just as people can't afford to use them.  That's real planning for you!
Of course, the gubberment will push up wages, so we can afford to pay for their roads, except of course the more they push it up the higher prices and inflation will be, and the larger the governments own wages bill will be.  And only a few will be left with disposable income (those invested way back).

But if you are right, and the market is all going to heck.  Then it is time to go for short positions.  It took a bit of working the models, to work out how to mechanically (ie reality wise) impliment the algorythm,  but if it exists "in market" and the market is [supposed :) ] to be a reflection of an underlying real world process(es).  Then it must also stand that a "short" position must be achievable in those real world processes.  Do you understand how?
 
- - - 
slight aside:  If using an electric circuit system as a comparitive model, you've got to remember "money is debt"!  ie money is the flow of holes, assets and services are the electrons (real supply).  Most folks would tend to think it's the money flowing, perhaps even Benny Franklin.
 
- - - 
And cost of the water... outside mai dwelling at the moment.... it's friggin' bucketting down!!

Do I understand

Do I understand how?
 
Keeping social conscience out of it (I happen to have one which includes me and mine, friends, and the Nation, but pretty much excludes everyone else) the aim is to be debt free, and as capable of self-support as possible. I just go for back-ups of everything - having got to the point where we have most things in place.
 
Can't do a thing about wars, or maurauding local hordes, So I don't. Doesn't stop me being proactive in all else, though.
 
One of the big conscience issues is that when you withdraw for global-impact reasons, your formal comtribution to society (taxes) tend to be less. It's an interesting trip, looking for ways to contribute without resource/climate impact. There's probably a book in it sometime.
 
Maybe if it rains for another week solid....

Do you understand how,

Do you understand how, what?
Do you understand how to achieve a "Short" position, using real world dynamics.
Having backups of stuff is taking a long position on those items, you are acquiring and holding them on the expectation that the total cost of ownership in the future (eg travel) will make the more expensive in the future.  Thus by spending now, paying the opportunity cost and storage costs (ie ownership carry cost); you see a benefit (profit) in holding on to them.
But in a trading market you can "short sell" as well as "buy long" (shorts go down, long fellas go up on good trades)
If the market IS a descriptive modelling of real behaviours, then that behaviour must be duplicatable in the real world - like a mechanical calculator can be made with wheels and gears which adds, subtracts, divides and multiplies.
  IF the market is a human contrivance, an artifical, man-made structure then that means it can have it's own virtual rules and is not restricted to strict real world behaviour patterns (which goes against everything people claim about markets).
So how does one achieve a "real world" "Short"?
I don't have a social conscience, as I consider it indoctrination.  Instead I use a rational mental model that is examinable and adjustable if the testing of it proves that it can be improved.  There are no sacred cows for me.  This also helps in not assuming certain acts are valid or "good" just because they hit a preferred note in my mental map.
 This the better enables me to consider the future outcomes of actions; being able to develop a model gameboard to see where events will lead, not just relying on philosophies hitting droptargets and bumpers, and calling score at the first time my prejudices are hit.

Short trading in a market, is

Short trading in a market, is a zero-sum game, as is hedging. You may 'make more money' but only at the expense of others.
 
Both parties are in trouble if they turn up at the gas station, and the tanks are empty.
 
Money, meet real world. You could buy bits of it, until you couldn't. It always had to happen, time was the only variable in the equation.
 
Future-proofing and sustainability, are long games, and the only games in town

money is a proxy for

money is a proxy for energy/work. it is the real world via proxy.  ppp adjust its real 'energy usage'.
 
 
 

yet the sun pours in energy

yet the sun pours in energy continuously each day.. do we get inflated? of deflated??
Gravity works on us every moment, Time flows through us (or we appear to flow through it) is it decreasing?

money is only a human

money is only a human endeavor. i.e. a tree or animal or rock or oil does not use money

currency is a human

currency is a human endeavour.
money is value of resources.  trees, animals, rocks, oil, ARE money, to one who trades in them.
 
Point is, we have constant inputs.  It is not a closed system.

the variable is how those are

the variable is how those are used. walnut tree is more valuable for its nuts than as firewood.

You don't have a large one in

You don't have a large one in your backyard then.... :(
But yes, price and value add, are "context"/situation sensitive.  Something I assign as "information value".  

You don't have a large one in

You don't have a large one in your backyard then.... :(
But yes, price and value add, are "context"/situation sensitive.  Something I assign as "information value".  

You're missing the point

You're missing the point PDK.

Short trading in a market is ...(blah blah blah, not relevant).  Short trading does exist in a market.  Hedging is simply a short position matching a long position (often in different markets - eg trade and forex), just as Straddling is similiar to hedging but without the cloed overlap.  Abritage is similar but uses the two positions to profit on the potential difference, especially where the markets are somewhat correlated (ie there is external information outside the immediate system dynamics that say they Should be convergent.) But I diverge...
 
You constantly strike me PDK, as someone who has always had money.  Enough to survive and pursue projects of interest.  Often with money, for those of us futher down the pigs back, its not about buying bits of the world, it's putting on your running shoes so you can run faster than the other guy when the bear is chasing.  The long game is irrelevant, if you're about to be wiped off the board (maginalised) in the short game.   For you to say the long games the only game in town makes me think you've had the easy street through the short game.
 
But here's the thing.
Without money and markets, the tanks will be empty, and there won't even be a gas station.  Let alone staff to have time away from subsistance labour, and resources able to store that much capital money in a gas station or a car asset.  Or a horse, tack and trainer/vet/smithy.
So the question is thus put to anyone who is an "expert" in their field:  If a market represents a real world, how does one "go short" in the real world?  What is required, How is it accomplished.
 Now the point with your argument, about money meet real world and the thermodynamic laws for resource modeling: is that if one can't "go short" in the real world - then the markets ARE NOT reflections of the real world, and you can't then apply the real world thermodynamic laws to them (directly).  Which means the laws of money are separate from and likely non-proportional to energy systems, and behaviours from one should not be attributed to the other.
  But all the economic experts say the market IS an (even "the") accurate reflection of real world resources - so the thermodynamic effects -may- have correlation, however that also means that one can "go short" in the real world, if the appropriate environment exists.  So what therefore is that environment and what are the dynamics.   And it falls to you PDK to prove that the real world does match the market/economy (and thus prove the short-able-ness) as you're claiming the market must follow the real world thermodynamic rules.

I say it doesn't, even though I worked out how to short in the real world.  But I also believe in real world value of systemic information, and that the world is far too Chaotic in 5 generations to worry about the full end game.

Sure it makes the world go

Sure it makes the world go around, so when its gone what will us, our children, grandchidren and our great grandchidren use?
camels? donkeys?
oh dear....
 
Yes, if needs must - my living 82 year old father remembers his badly battered WW1 veteran uncle driving a horse and cart delivering coal around Manchester in the 40's.  

Stephen H - you should be

Stephen H - you should be grateful then for some of the minds that created advancements for all of the people.  We have gone from carrier pigeons to internet,  horse and cart to a fantastic roading networks, chamber-pots and tippy-tin toilets to sewerage schemes, hand-milking the cow to automated dairy sheds, horses for work to horses for pleasure, growing your own annual food supply to the convenience of one-stop supermarkets, people having to go to a work-place to being able to work from home using technology etc. And all in a short space of time.
What makes you think some of the people out there don't have the type of mind that can overcome the problems it will face and create new inventions? You can spend all your time worrying about problems or You can spend your time solving problems. 
 
Cutting back consumption in the commodity of oil because of a perceived shortage now, to lengthen a time-frame of availability of supply only stalls the process of new invention and innovation. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

It's not just an economist

It's not just an economist you're not. You could add 'intelligent to the list.
 
That is the old hack about 'we've come so far' (you can't stop us now) followed by the 'There's no limit to the human brain" one.
 
Why didn't you add Moores Law? That kind mostly do!
 
All that 'progress', was courtesy of unlimited (until it wasn't) availability of easy energy.
 
The human brain, sadly, can only make energy-use more efficient. It can't bypass the use of energy, in doing work. Nobody - for all the ranting - has come up with a viable replacement, and we now have more infrastructure, more people, more systems than ever, at  the peak-supply point, and every truck, every digger, every combine harvester, every aeroplane, every road, every plastic type, is oilmade or dependent.  You have to introduce an equivalent now, with the potential to grow exponentially, and to cover what we're not accounting for already (pollution, degradation).
 
You might as well have been an economist - the thinking is just as flawed.

Powerdownkiwi - The

Powerdownkiwi - The power-stalker of interest.co.nz.  I am not remotely interested in your negative banging on about peak-oil and crisis.  If the whole world run out of oil tomorrow we will either adapt or die, it is very simple.  You give little credit for the energy of the human spirit to overcome adversity.   I couldn't care less whether the next step in life takes us to the trusty horse or some other form of energy invention. Adaptation is just part of everyday life.
 
I do know that human nature being what it is, If oil prices get too high then I think NZ could be fracking. And like taxes and bureaucrats once here they are here to stay.
 
 
 
 

In Queensland they are going

In Queensland they are going hell-bent-for-leather on fracking for CSG, and they are having a lot of trouble with land subsidence and contamination of aquifiers.
 
Fracking
The report pointed out that "even small changes to the land surface due to subsidence may alter overland flow paths initiating new erosion features in susceptible areas." Subsidence can also "change or cause fracturing in aquifers which may alter the hydraulic connectivity."
http://www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2011/03/22/3169602.htm
 
Fracking
Fracking (the process often used to fracture coal seams) injects large volumes of toxic chemicals into the coal seams. These chemicals then leak into nearby aquifers and contaminate farmland and waterways. Fracking has also caused land subsidence and earthquakes.
http://www.sixdegrees.org.au/content/csg-facts

Fracking isn't the issue,

Fracking isn't the issue, it's just another 'save the' fight; Forest and Bird vs Big Whatever.
 
Ulitmately, Big Whatever will encroach, and F&B will retreat.
 
Big picture, though, fracking, shale, tar-sands, deep-ocean drilling, water-cutting etc, are all indications that the best has gone.
 
No need to understand more - we've peaked our EROEI. 
 
Those who state "We'll adapt" have to be dismissed at this point; a just-in-time global system which chews up 85 million barrels a day - a billion every 12 days - just maintaining, and a fiscal system requiring growth in activity to underpin it, are goners when you're down to fracking. It's no coincidence global trading activity is trending to zero, and absolutely predictable that it will trend below.
 
On that basis, 'adapting' is too late, because the work needed to do so, won't be available at the time. So you need to anticipate, and be ready beforehand.

The " right wing " guys who

The " right wing " guys who abuse people as much as PDK does , have all be banned by Bernard ......
 
...... the DUKE , the MAN , WESTMINSTER ...... long gone .....
 
Why isn't PDK given his marching orders too , Bernard ? ....... how much personal abuse do we have to take from this blogger ?

funny as.... Whats up GBH,

funny as....
Whats up GBH, fear getting to you?  Just what will you eat when the share market is 10% of what it now is?  Maybe the locals will eye you up as long pig.....can you run fast?
regards

Just because you write "

Just because you write " regards " at the bottom of every posting does not absolve you from having  hurled abuse and fabrications  at your fellow bloggers .

Adaption, well the other side

Adaption, well the other side is extinction.  We can and are ignoring it, so many will die....or mitigate and less ppl die. 
regards
 

A point that you are missing

A point that you are missing notaneconomist is that if we burn/use more than about 20% of proven oil/coal/gas reserves then it is almost certain that world average temperatures will increase by more than 2 degrees C.  Which will be a disaster.
It is suicidal maddness to continue with oil exploration etc.
See http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719

"This number is the scariest

"This number is the scariest of all – one that, for the first time, meshes the political and scientific dimensions of our dilemma. It was highlighted last summer by the Carbon Tracker Initiative, a team of London financial analysts and environmentalists who published a report in an effort to educate investors about the possible risks that climate change poses to their stock portfolios. The number describes the amount of carbon already contained in the proven coal and oil and gas reserves of the fossil-fuel companies, and the countries (think Venezuela or Kuwait) that act like fossil-fuel companies. In short, it's the fossil fuel we're currently planning to burn. And the key point is that this new number – 2,795 – is higher than 565. Five times higher."
So the link to business, investors is pretty clear, carry on and your investments are at risk...so I expect the reply will be "thats OK, we'll sell to some other sucker"....
ho hum.
or,
"You want a big number? In the course of this month, a quadrillion kernels of corn need to pollinate across the grain belt, something they can't do if temperatures remain off the charts. Just like us, our crops are adapted to the Holocene, the 11,000-year period of climatic stability we're now leaving... in the dust."
So much for more CO2 being great for plant growth....no pollination....bee's seem scarce as well. Starting to look ugly and the lag is measured in decades so what we pump out today wont be felt for years.....or what we are feeling today was caused by us years ago....
regards

 

Andrew R - Are you familiar

Andrew R - Are you familiar with Climategate? There is a plethora of information surfacing in regards to the shoddy science behind CO2 emissions.
 
http://www.paulmacrae.com/  This site offers some pretty good information and a quick google search will show many others. There is an enormous list of scientists in the USA who are now challenging the whole C02 emissions science.
 
 
Firstly CO2 is just another tax placed on business. If the Govt can get $15 t/CO2 off all industry emissions it would receive hundreds of millions per year.  Which by the way the final consumer ends up paying.
 
I know that we all have been fed a diet of carbon emissions damaging the planet but the scientists far from  understood everything that was happening.   Many people have profited from CO2 scare-mongering tactics and I hope they are all brought to account for some have falsified information as you will find if you google climategate.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254660/Climategate-professor-Phil-Jones-admits-sending-pretty-awful-emails.html
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250872/Climategate-U-turn-Astonishment-scientist-centre-global-warming-email-row-admits-data-organised.html
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfafW_3oJ3Q
 
You could look at some of the information Lod Monckton has also presented on the topic and he shows quite clearly how the hockey stick graph used by the ICPP was not credible. David Bellamy has long ago stated that Global warming is a myth.
 
Maybe you view Al Gore get a gruelling by a US Senator over Global warming. Ironically it was Al Gore along with Enron who dreamed up the whole Global Warming phenomena.
 
Carbon Trading is just a newly invented platform to get more money out of working people.
 
 
 

The "Climategate" East Anglia

The "Climategate" East Anglia email server hacking showed scientists reluctant to respond to time-intensive data requests and discussing deleting emails but it did not show any evidence of fraud or manipulation of data.
NZ has signed the Kyoto Protocol so if we do not meet our targets then the taxpayer will pay rather than polluters.
The original hockey stick graph had some data flaws which did not affect the overall result. The shape of the curve has been verified several times by independent researchers. I can supply references to peer-reviewed scientific papers if you want.
Interesting theory you have there about Enron and Al Gore. I wouldn't have thought they had much in common. 

Simon P - Mr Mann's hockey

Simon P - Mr Mann's hockey stick graph appears not to have been the best tool for the ICPP to have used in their case for CO2 emissions being the cause of global warming - oh sorry I mean change.  Is the ICPP still using the Hockey stick graph? Hasn't the UN removed it from their literaturef?
 
Phil Jones refused to supply the information under the Official Information requests - why?
 
http://junkscience.com/2012/03/09/science-undermines-hockey-stick-graph/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/05/united-nations-pulls-hockey-stick-from-climate-report/
 
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/climategates_phil_jones_confes.html
 
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100119087/uh-oh-global-warming-loons-here-comes-climategate-ii/
 
Maybe you should read the link below and I draw your attention to Forestry planted Pre 1990.  The Govt is on to right winner here, it is certainly not the forestry owners that created the carbon credits that gets any benefit.
http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/climate/treatment-pre-1990-forest-nz-ets-dec07/treatment-pre-1990-forest-nz-ets-dec07.html
 
Why was the term global-warming adjusted to climate-change?  Is the science all of a sudden not to sure of what the effects are, so made a name change just in case?
None of us can afford to ignore the peer reviewed papers that have cover this topic. 
 
http://www.c3headlines.com/peer-reviewed-studies/
 

yet more lies for ever

yet more lies for ever repeated by the latest canon fodder. Like I said notathinker so we can add notasceptic as well....Funny but you seem to fit nicely into the far right, non-science camp of it will be how I want it to be and not how it is.....or voodoo everything.
LOL
regards
 

geeze i hear this a lot but

geeze i hear this a lot but my experience is that every scientist i know knows that data can be presented in so many ways that you can infer anything you want from it, it is the lay public that says 'it is certain' and they are the ones who can least apply rigor to it.  Ive never heard a scientist be sure of something unless they check the primary data themselves. they are always sceptical. its a healthy way to live, they mainly do this because of having experienced, first hand the amount of bad science that is out there.
 

Notaneconomist is clearly the

Notaneconomist is clearly the whole package.
 
I have sat through two lectures this week, one by Gareth Morgan, the other by a scientist/Prof with 41 years of lecturing behind him.
 
Their comments, backed by data, about the rate of ocean acidification and CO2 uptake, far outweigh that old shyte above, hawked by folk who start arguing from what they want, not from a blank-sheet 'what is'.
 
That's old stuff, well put to bed. In the same category as the Maugeri offering - consider the source, and consider the believers on-passing it.

Not only notaneconomist but

Not only notaneconomist but not a mathematician, or a scientist, or an engineer or a project manager and clearly not a thinker.   What you are ignoring or have not considered is we need time to a) find solutions (we have none at present) 5 years, say. b) Develope them to a point that they can be commercialised, say 2~5 years and c) build and scale them up at 4 to 5mbpd equiv per year. Realistically thats a 10 to 20 year time frame.  So just like the US Govn throws money at the armaments industry to make new bombs and fighters, Govns need to throw money at this....The scale is really like the ramp up to WW2....huge.
Meanwhile, peak was 2006...6 years later we have not even started a) in any serious way. We have been on a flat plateau for about 6 years, it might last another 5 but 2 or 3 is most likely....then we drop at 4 to 8%, possibly 14% per annum.  the lowest numer 4% will cause a 10% contraction in GDP....it will throw us into a Greater Depression
.....this is the failing of "market forces" too short term....cant see ahead.
What you are saying is as the supply drops we will have to fight for the oil.....and the US has all of those big toys....if it can even keep the lid on the arab springs that are coming.
Fail to plan, plan to fail as the saying goes.
regards

Steven - Really I may not be

Steven - Really I may not be an economist, scientist, engineer blah blah but maybe you don't understand how the world has evolved. Perhaps the link below will assist you.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/09/jack-hitt-examines-why-amateurs-are-the-job-creators.html
 
Your quote: "What you are saying is as the supply drops we will have to fight for the oil" make it clear in your head right now - I did not say that - you made that assumption on your own.
 "Fail to plan, plan to fail as the saying goes" - Yes well - One mans loss, is another mans gain and this is where the likely capital injection for the future will come.
 
 

The USA invaded Iraq for oil,

The USA invaded Iraq for oil, it wants to invade iran, for oil. When it comes down to it as Presidents say the American way of life is not up for negoitiation. What conclusions can be made except the USA has killed and will continue kill for oil....and it will use its poor for canon fodder.....
Capital injection...there is a time and science element that no quantity of capital can address...
NB Capital will want a return....but we as ppl simply wont be able to afford that bill......
regards

notaneconomist, What puzzles

notaneconomist, What puzzles me is that if a carrier pigeon, house and cart, chamber-pot and tippy tin toilet, hand-milked cows, horses for work, growing your own annual food, work at workplace   culture can develop and build all those wonderful things........ then why can't the culture with all those advantages afford to maintain it?

It's not 'afford', is the

It's not 'afford', is the problem. You ALWAYS relate it to money.
 
It's the energy in the system - the work do-able.
 
Amish vs 10-ton loader.
 
But the Amish approach is sustainable, energy-wise. It's nothing to do with 'afford'.
 
When you 'get' the difference, you'll 'get' it.
 
Money can't buy anything, if there's nothing to buy.

there's always something to

there's always something to buy. that is the purchasing power of money. its a proxy for things like work/energy.

I have found it rather hard

I have found it rather hard to acquire resources or time without money.

And as India and Asia prove the Amish approach is not sustainable.

monetisation, to me, is the process of assigning value for trade.  Currency, to me, is establishment of tokens to enable trade of money, including portability and enhancing transferrability (transferrability is an information value of an asset or resource, and thus that property of the asset has value).
 
Money can therefore buy things.  If their is nothing to buy, there are no resources anyway.
If there are resources, then there is potential demand, which like potential difference, explicitly declares teh ability to do work.  "money" to me is just resource markers'...'debt based resources markers'  (and quite separate from currency)

Mist42nz - Politicians,

Mist42nz - Politicians, Bureaucrats, taxes, levies, RMA and other legislative compliance etc all add to the unaffordability.  The honest value cost plus profit of product or service is distorted by all the other created add on costs is my quick answer.  Efficiency in completing any job or task is undermined and variables frequently not considered.
 
We all work approximately the first 6 months of the year to pay all the taxes imposed and then what you make after that is yours. However if your in a business you can lose at least one day a week quite easily in administrative/compliance requirements. Whether you are doing the work yourself or paying others to do it doesn't matter it is still a cost burdon.
Business is up against large well funded Government agencies who have legislative clout and the cost of taking on these agencies through the courts would not be worth it in most cases.
 
Part of the 'culture' now is that you pay these taxes and these are the services that I get in return (health,education, policing, etc) few people actually cost out whether they could get a similar service for cheaper. Some people know there is a failure in supply of the Government services and affectively end up paying twice once in their taxes and also for a private entity to provision them. Health insurance, private schooling, security, etc would be a few expamples. Private enterprise "generally" has its finger on the button and questions the costs. The public system has become so large in the last decade that the number of people working in this system threatens to overtake(may have already overtaken) the numbers working in the private sector. 
 
If you watch people who are on very restrained budgets they will cost out every grocery item they purchase to ensure they get the cheapest item to stick within their budget. They might know the price of apples everywhere for the week yet they never give consideration to Govt services and the costs.
I was amused when a farmer quibbled for two months over the cost of a battery (the difference he was arguing over was $5), Everyday for two months he had to get another vehicle out to jump-start his farm ute. Obviously he didn't rate the time and costs highly of his inefficiency.
 
There are so many variables of culture within the framework of the whole culture that affordability to maintain the advantages and benefits is eroded.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I am no longer only paying 1

I am no longer only paying 1 day a week to work on my lords estate, doing his taxes.
It now consumes far more than that, and every turning there's more wastage.
Most of the "services" offered are claimed to be valuable but arent to me - only to the people who consume them, which isn't me. And they're not paying for them.  It's like that broken windows fallacy - in most cases we're paying "window insurance" for windows that aren't broken, and now can't even afford the original window...but still paying the insurance.

Yes farmers are classic for not rating their time and costs properly.  However do consider that his time, as sold to the company probably is worth nearly nothing.  Most farmers have low yield around 1% on an average year, which is compounded.  The real value of most farms is that of capital gain through inflation - they usually don't make - or charge - anything on their invested equity.   Likewise their time is usually written off as just a CODB (cost of doing business), with minimal drawings until the number of good years hopefully exceeds enough of the bad for their equity to reduce their borrowing cost.  (ie the interest cost drops, and there's no cost of equity, so the mortgage slow gains ground.  Almost all farmers are on interest-only automatically-renewed indefinate loans (at least the first generation owners).   Life insurance, and farm property speculation, are the usual paydowns on the debt.

So yes, the farmer probably was making a profit on the $5.

MIst42nz - I know what your

MIst42nz - I know what your talking about on the farm, it is well over 1 day a week it is more like 3 if all compliance issues are taken into consideration.
 
The farmer I mentioned was the worst one I have ever come across, the example is not indicative of the industry as a whole and only used him as an example of human behaviour (culture) The hell-bent attitude to save $5 on a battery probably cost him many times that amount. So it is what I term as a false saving. He could have looked at the bigger picture of ensuring that his stock were shifted when they needed to be to obtain better pasture management and production.

I understand that you use him

I understand that you use him as a bad example, hence I felt the need to point out, by the normal criteria that applies on most farms, he was actually saving money!

One of our managers on a previous farm used to spend an afternoon straightening out old nails so they could be reused.  Over half of the straightened nails were fatigued from the cold bending but that didn't phase him.    We would have preferred him to use the time to find better operational ideas, but he was after savings, and since he never figured in his time cost, it worked out cheaper to straighten nails, than use them from the 5kg box in the shed....

Hello PDK, steven and co.

Hello PDK, steven and co. Something to brighten your days.
An expert has just said the world will probably be facing an oil glut in the next few years.
No need for you guys to worry as much as you do I think.
 

Hey, I think your houses

Hey, I think your houses values will triple inside 6 months!!!!
Hows that for good news!!!!!
congrats!!!!!
regards
your loving local realestate agent.
get the idea?
 
 

steven, the future of the

steven, the future of the world's resources are much too important to be mocking the opinions of experts.
We have heard all of this "the end is nigh" stuff for centuries from the whacky extreme of the human existance. Everything will be OK. Spread the word. A glut is coming.
I've been thinking of up-grading my car to a bigger one...

One dubious "expert" with a

One dubious "expert" with a paid for report from the oil industry...try reading the copious crtiques of his cwap....and especially ASPO who have a lot of real experts, oil geologists like Campbell....maybe look up robert Hirsch 2005.....great links on youtube...as a sample of the other side.
Bigger car, yep get a nice big v8 holden ute, get it on HP as well....you know it makes sense. Just like being a landlord with lots of leverage when facing a Greater Depression.....its great when ppl like you do this, helps me pay down debt a little more and longer.....just remember how canon fodder fairs...
regards

I just onsent all the

I just onsent all the versions of that, which hit the NZ media, to RNZ's 'Media Watch".
 
Because there is a classic example of what happens. Conveniently behind the Harvard name, one person (ex-industry, but peer-outnumbered in his appraisal by about 100:1) put out a 'report'.
 
Very quickly, it is rebutted, and the foaw is revealed - his rate-of-depletion of existing fields is about 1.6% pa, the actual is between 4 and 5% pa.
 
But look at who swallowed it.
http://powerdownkiwi.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/otago-daily-times-rnz-news-interest-co-and-swallowing-the-spin/
 
The question is, who pushed it onto the NZ media, and the supplementary question is - why did they swallow it?

Steven/PDK - having passed

Steven/PDK - having passed "peak comment" and "peak patronising" you are now approaching "peak boring" .  I get your points.  Here is an additional one - you will be required to co-operate more locally in future.  Practice some humility now and you may be able to better negotiate and co-operate in the future.  Try reaching "peak humility" before you get to "peak I'll take all your stuff you twat".
Rememebr, you only describe your sweet spot on the slippery slope down - and bastards like me are at the bottom who will consign you to history for a lighter or some more ammo.   

Hi, Never described a

Hi,
Never described a specific sweet spot on the slope.....thats just it its unknown. Anyway really if you are a bastard then humility on our part makes no odds especially if you want ammo...
More and more locally, and co-operate, yes as we have said...which is counter to "you" and "take".
Maybe you should try moving away from peak stupidity and into peak thinking....
"take", sure you can try....
regards
 
 

AL - if you get our point,

AL - if you get our point, then maybe you can help move on to the next stage; do something about it.
 
The societal debate is clearly better had, well before anarchy set in.
 
Which is why I'm here.

News -  Maui gas field good

News -  Maui gas field good for another 10 years using the existing wells  !!       another rotten news day for the doomists

You have rates-of-supply

You have rates-of-supply y.o.y. for that?

Take a look at the production

Take a look at the production graph, looks like a classic gaussian to me! :)
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Mauigasfield.svg
 
Also from the article GONZ's is crooning over:
 
When it was discovered in 1969, Maui was one of the biggest offshore gas fields in the world. At its peak in the 1990s it met 90 per cent of New Zealand's natural gas demand.
Now in its twilight years it still meets about 20 per cent of demand.
 
Peak and decline, doesn't reality suck sometimes!

I didn't bother looking (good

I didn't bother looking (good on you for that) but they all conform, that's why they need spinners like the wee muppet.
 
Ain't reality a bugger!
 
Have a good weekend, Plutocracy, whoever you are. Getting at the truth is about the best aim a debate can have.

Thats good news alright 10

Thats good news alright 10 more years of gas ,that will be at least 10 years.More gas
will most likely gome up out of the earth to replenish it.anyway if we ever get a bit low
we can go down to Plonkerupkiwis forestry block mow it down burn it in our open fires
and set up a fracking platform there .
Baz

This should keep things

This should keep things moving, I think it's a great thing although I am not a big loan fan. Still, we're talking about an important project here, it makes huge difference if it can be done with the right timing. Take a closer look at londons public transportation system, they always find solutions to keep everything perfectly functional.