Neville - I see you are a salesman as well. Useful stuff. We don't have a 'House of Lords' so debate on this kind of change should be a piece of cake.

So when you get old and have no income, you won't be able to afford to live in your paid-for house anymore, and potter in your garden. You will be confined to a box in a high rise block of flats.

What a stupid idea. It would cause civil unrest.

Govt just needs to stop spending....not find new ways to steal off the people.

A land value tax is immediately capitalised into the land price, so you might expect land prices to fall and land owners to feel deprived. This is offset by two factors, one economic and one political: The boost to the economy from lifting other taxes acts to increase the demand for land, so land prices do not necessarily change much at all. Also the inequality in land ownership is more extreme than the inequality in income, so a flat land tax can be popular in the same fashion as progressive income tax: most voters end up winners. It worked for John Ballance, who introduced the original NZ land tax at 0.4% and ended up as one of only two prime ministers to be honoured by a statue in the grounds of parliament. Of course dying in office helped too.
If landowners are still too scared by the prospect of a drop in the value of their land, there are two ways to reintroduce LVT gradually. The obvious way is to start with a low rate, but a better way is JS Mill's suggestion to exempt the current value of the land but tax away any future increase in value entirely with a land tax set at approximately the long term interest rate, around 5%, that way nobody looses anything other than their future unearned "capital" gains.
Of course both gradual approaches have one huge drawback: the benefits will not be felt until long after the tax is introduced, plenty of time for it to be rolled back without a chance to prove itself.

I, too, am a strong proponent of reliance on land values (i.e., location rental values, and other sources of "rent") to pay for public goods and services. Here in the United States, I teach political economy at the Henry George School of Social Science and at the Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at Temple University. For each lesson in this course I have developed Powerpoint modules anyone can access on the website of the Henry George School in Philadelphia. The powerpoint modules include lecture notes you can view if you have Powerpoint (or the open source equivalent).

The sad thing about New Zealand and Australia is that your tax system was at one time structured to locally capture land values to support local government. However, those who had a vested interest in property speculation managed to convince (or contrive with) public officials to shift responsbility for many functions to the state or federal government, which shifted the tax base destructively to income and commerce.

Hey Neville, Sir Humphrey thinks you're doing a great job and promises you the committee looking into the tax system will give your ideas the attention they deserve.
Oh and Hacker has fallen off his chair in a fit of laughter.

Steps asks; "Is not our rates system such a tax to income for local bodies?"

Yes, partially - however property owning interests have succeeded at slowly lobbying land value taxes out of the charging mechanisms - as witnessed by the greater use of fixed charges, consumption taxes and UAGCs (Universal Annual General Charges).

There is a large contingent who would argue that rates should not be a 'wealth' tax and subsequently they are becoming more regressive in nature.

You don't solve all the problems caused by the state's involvement in our economies, by more state involvement in our economies, which is control of our lives. That is 'The Road To Serfdom' for all of us - read Hayek.

Neville, as an economic historian, you have the same (lack of a clear philosophical base) blinker as NZ's Business Roundtable, which is a propensity to write on a disparate collection of topics, according to some type of pragmatic fad of the time, which is normally concerned with fixing the problems consequent on the last government intervention, and which always boils down to argments over the most economic way to produce the spade to dig one's own grave with.

Megacities and changes in ratings structures provide nothing more than a shell game, so government can check your other pockets for loose change.

The debate between CV and LV is in full swing here in the Far North. Far North District Council Mayor Wayne Brown is pushing for CV, because he believes commercial assets like the Juken Nissho mill in Kaitaia are not paying enough in tax. This mill, the single largest employer in Kaitaia, is already on thin ice because of retracted markets. Brown says respondents to a survey on the topic are in favour of CV. This same Mayor was caught stuffing responses to another survey on the District Plan, last week.
http://www.northernadvocate.co.nz/localnews/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=379...

Thieves? Just ask yourself, cui bono (who benefits)?

Nevillie the reason we are in such a mess is because of goverment intervention in the first place you are starting to sound like a commie, there is to much tax in this country hard working people have had enough of it another tax or re-jigging of a tax will only mean in real terms increase of the goverments take, private property should not have cgt slaped on it in any shape or form.
Baz

simply

Thanks for a thoughtful article, Neville Bennett. [Pity about some of the knee-jerk responses!] Had we much more significant public land value capture in place than we do at local government level now, and less taxes on labour and capital, we wouldn't be having this so-called 'recession'.

In 2001, 2005 and each year thereafter, I showed that Australian real estate sales to GDP had developed into a bubble, that it must eventually burst and bring about the daddy of all recessions. It gives me no solace to have been proven correct, because most individuals and policy-makers are still as far away as ever from making this most fundamental connection!

Until we realise that land values are publicly-created and are the *natural* source of revenue - and we get government fingers out of the pockets of labour and capital (by income and sales taxing us) - we'll continue get the social and economic results we deserve.

The following article by Michael Hudson seems as though it might be at home in this thread

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13702

"Nevillie the reason we are in such a mess is because of goverment intervention in the first place you are starting to sound like a commie, there is to much tax in this country hard working people have had enough of it another tax or re-jigging of a tax will only mean in real terms increase of the goverments take, private property should not have cgt slaped on it in any shape or form."

Why did Property Investor Magazine feature a person swinging in a hammock on the front cover and why does the local bookshop have 2 square meters devoted to Wealth Through Property Investment?

The reason for that is the banks profit from rising property values and so does the tax take through the construction and spending look at the last goverment they spent most of it through hand outs etc and proping up this mess with working for families rather than tax cuts accross the board, the problem with the housing market is a large part of rentals dont make a profit but what they do is or have done in the last few years is lower the tax you pay if your the landlord if say your on wages etc and the gains where capital of course . what should happen is like most business need to show profit mine does if it doesent we dont eat its simple the rental housing in many cases is a scam with the goverments blessing and has been used to the max by the last Gov
I say it again they are not a business in the true form they produce stuff all except a drain on the tax payer'''''
Baz

What absolute crap.

Landlords are spending a dollar to save 33 cents. They are still 67 cents worse off. The 67 cents goes to bank who pay tax on it. Then when landlords sell their properties they pay tax on any depreciation they recover.

Some people have been very personal. they do not seem capable of playing the ball (the argument) but play the man. Some people have called me a commy but i explain that I am a liberal, partly because if the commies got power they would shoot me quick. Another implied that i followed fads, which is odd: show me another writer advocating land tax..this is original.

Hayek's Road to Serfdom? of course I read it, heard Hayek lecture at his old stamping ground the London School of Economics, my alama mater.

others chant a mantra that all tax is theft..but States have the right to extract it. I think NZ needs a review to get away from a system designed by a ruling landed class.

The main point is getting ignored..a shift of tax from mobile to immobile. I get fed up with a life in the top income tax bracket. 70% under muldoon, 39% under cullen Other get away tax free.... but they have enjoyed huge increases.

there have been some wonderfully balanced ideas about the transition a lvt would require, and I loved the 19 century remarks about Grey and Ballance. it is awesome too to have an American expert chipping in, although i hope he may contribute some links.

Land Tax, Capital Gains Tax, Stamp Duty etc, etc - zero chance of any of it happening in NZ under a National Govt.

End of thread - not worth continued discussion!

... to state myself more clearly, I see your logic, but you don't fix income tax being too high by advocating raising taxes on a different base. You just advocate for lower, or the abolition of income taxes that hold the productive sector back, and therefore impede our quality of life, as those very taxes create the society that must see more and more government control of the individual. Hayek again.

Mark Hubbard - your argument that we need even more financial deregulation is bordering on deluded when we are suffering the all to obvious effects of just that right now. A more blinkered individual I dont think you will come across, perhaps only matched by Bob Jones deluded media backed campaign proclaiming that banks only relend part of their deposits, they dont create credit, full facts here;
http://socialcreditorbust.blog.co.nz/bob%20jones%20fool%20or%20liar/

As for your deluded argument re more de-reg, I will have to take the word of the many insiders that are exposing the systemic fraud for what it is over your poorly supported argument;
Simon Johnson - Head Economist IMF 2007-8 http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice
The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government"”a state of affairs that more typically describes emerging markets, and is at the center of many emerging-market crises. If the IMF's staff could speak freely about the U.S., it would tell us what it tells all countries in this situation: recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we're running out of time.

Joseph Stiglitz - Noebel prize winning economist
http://www.newint.org/features/2004/03/01/imf-failure/
The Hospital that makes you Sicker
Joseph Stiglitz won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 2001. He was Chief Economist of the World Bank between 1997 and 2000. So when he says that the IMF are "˜free-market fundamentalists' working in the interests of Wall Street, the world ought to sit up and listen. The NI interviewed him in London.
You have said that you have been forced to the conclusion that the IMF works in the interests of Western capital. This seems a remarkable view for a former chief economist of the World Bank.

Michael Hudson - http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13054
CV here http://www.michael-hudson.com/
So the international financial system's double standard remains alive and kicking "“ at least, kicking countries that are down or are falling. Debtor countries must borrow a trillion from the IMF not to revive their own faltering economies, not to pursue counter-cyclical policies to restore market demand (that is only for creditor nations), but to pass on the IMF "aid" to the poisonous banks that have made the irresponsible toxic loans. (If these are toxic, who put in the toxin? To claim that it was all the "natural" workings of the marketplace is to say that free markets curdle and sicken. Is this what is happening?)

Richard Cook( 21 years US Treasury)written 2007
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5964
CV here http://www.richardccook.com/
It's Official: The Crash of the U.S. Economy has begun
It's official. Mark your calendars. The crash of the U.S. economy has begun. It was announced the morning of Wednesday, June 13, 2007, by economic writers Steven Pearlstein and Robert Samuelson in the pages of the Washington Post, one of the foremost house organs of the U.S. monetary elite.
Pearlstein's column was titled, "The Takeover Boom, About to Go Bust" and concerned the extraordinary amount of debt vs. operating profits of companies currently subject to leveraged buyouts.
In language remarkably alarmist for the usually ultra-bland pages of the Post, Pearlstein wrote, "It is impossible to predict when the magic moment will be reached and everyone finally realizes that the prices being paid for these companies, and the debt taken on to support the acquisitions, are unsustainable. When that happens, it won't be pretty. Across the board, stock prices and company valuations will fall. Banks will announce painful write-offs, some hedge funds will close their doors, and private-equity funds will report disappointing returns. Some companies will be forced into bankruptcy or restructuring."
----------------------------------------
And to finish off the intricate details of how the freemarkateers and banksters brought control of government, thus it was your mates Mark that caused this, not any Democratic institution;
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html

But you wont read it Mark, as you are blinkered like an old trotter, Ron Trotter that is;
http://www.nzbr.org.nz/lecture_series.asp?Topic=RonTrotterLecture

Iain Parker

your argument that we need even more financial deregulation is bordering on deluded when we are suffering the all to obvious effects of just that right now.

Bullshit.

If this crisis was caused by deregulation (and not the unprincipled printing of money and distortion of free markets by out of control States) then:

a) how do you explain how UK and Europe are in a bigger mess than the US, yet have more highly regulated banking industries?

b) if deregulation is to blame for the recession that began in December 2007, presumably it should also get some of the credit for the intervening growth?

c) why did the greater financial regulation of the 1970s in the US fail to prevent itfrom suffering not only double-digit inflation in that decade but also a recession (between 1973 and 1975) as severe and protracted as the one we're in now?

And after all that, tell me how much "˜regulation' fixes this and stops it happening?

Do you understand the insanity of Kniether, or whatever the Statist's name is, of now advocating a 6% inflation to get the US out of this government made hole? He is advocating the debasement of the value of money as the route to prosperity. Deflation is the natural market mechanism for money to regain its value.

Or do you thing we should make inferior cars as a solution for the ills of the auto industry, given this is no different in principle to the debasement of the money supply through the printing of yet more money at the behest of inane politicians?

SPC

As I said to Neville, you don't solve over-taxation in one area by advocating tax off another base. For me this is not so much an economic issue, as a philosophical and moral issue.

... could finance state house upgrades and replacement

You see your solution to previous government interventions into the economy is further interventions until we are all serfs of the big Nanny state. That is unacceptable, and to freedom lovers like myself, abhorrent and immoral.

Oh God, a conspiracy theorist. Yeah, okay Iain. No, I can't be bothered reading your link. Answer my specific questions first.

A lot of words Iain. Now answer my specific questions. I'll repeat them:

If this crisis was caused by deregulation (and not the unprincipled printing of money and distortion of free markets by out of control States) then:

a) how do you explain how UK and Europe are in a bigger mess than the US, yet have more highly regulated banking industries?

b) if deregulation is to blame for the recession that began in December 2007, presumably it should also get some of the credit for the intervening growth?

c) why did the greater financial regulation of the 1970s in the US fail to prevent itfrom suffering not only double-digit inflation in that decade but also a recession (between 1973 and 1975) as severe and protracted as the one we're in now?

And after all that, tell me how much "˜regulation' fixes this and stops it happening?

Do you understand the insanity of Kniether, or whatever the Statist's name is, of now advocating a 6% inflation to get the US out of this government made hole? He is advocating the debasement of the value of money as the route to prosperity. Deflation is the natural market mechanism for money to regain its value.

Or do you think we should make inferior cars as a solution for the ills of the auto industry, given this is no different in principle to the debasement of the value of money through the printing of yet more money at the behest of inane politicians?

We have choked on the rising price of oil (and discovered the limits of Keynesian economics) with stagflation, we are now choking on a debt financed asset bubble - (and how will the monetarists cope with it), some will prefer inflation to deflation, some will prefer deflation to inflation - I doubt either will get their way and the limits of monetarism will be exposed when we go through stagflation once again.

SPC -

What exactly is the benefit of high levels of home ownership? Surely the cost of accommodation (i.e. rental prices) is what is important from a 'basic standard of living' standpoint. We haven't had a massive run-up in rental prices in NZ to date, however if your proposals were enacted investment in rental property would slump, development would slump and we would end up with higher rental costs for the poor.

I would rather financially literate investors own housing stock than financially illiterate low-income owner-occupiers. The former are more likely to prepare for downturns and less likely to default on motgages than the latter. This is part of the problem in the US, where they have had increasing home-ownership rates (i.e. sub-prime), unlike NZ where home-ownership rates have fallen.

Mark Hubbard - every question you ask was amply covered by my links to those that have operated at the very heart of the international banking network.
When a man that was cheif economist at the IMF as recently as 2007-8 comes out and says we have a financial oligarchy that is controlling government, international government policy for that matter, and they got it by buying financial deregulation for political donations and the fact they can walk in and out of the public service at will, your arguments dont rate.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html
I will entertain you a little on question B, the growth you talk of was a lot like the trick where you make a cork cannon out of a one and a quarter ltr plastic bottle, put a cork in the top then pump it full of compressed air from a tight hole in the side until the cork explodes out the top. The growth you speak was the equivalent of the cork only after it had exploded out the top it was further fueled by Bullshit(a word you seem to like) now the economy has to fall from the great height it reached based on freshair and bullshit.

"Austrian in the economist stable to spell out the only solution consistent to retaining a free West: laissez-faire"

yeah right and just look at the economic state of Austria right now...not to mention the US....the Bush years are pretty much fine examples of not to have laissez-faire.

"And being an ideological libertarian doesn't make what I say wrong: how does it, when it's based on reason?"

Your reason....not reason for 99% of other NZers...ie [population of NZ - 1024 libertnz voters in 2008] dont want a Libertanz society.

"I'm either right or I'm wrong, and I'm right. After that I don't care about the tags."

No you are not, this is not a Q of 2+2=4 so its right...or 2+3=4 so its wrong....

Libertanz is intelectually corrupt on the most fundimental level....ie its wrong to tax for some things but right to tax for others....So you object to paying taxes for hospitals while forcing taxes on me to pay for an army that you want but I dont.

Now anarchy I do have time for, its pure with no jumping through hoops to suit a twisted ideal....and at least that's zero taxes....If you think taxing for public services is wrong well I think Libertanz taxing for a police force or army is just as corrupt...

I can see this has descended into yet another Libertanz ralk fest....instead of a sensible discusion around land tax....gee whizz looks like the entire 1000 Libertanz voters must be swinging in here....

Neville, land tax I see as being rather old fashioned ie it allows little for today's virtual / electronic world or globalisation....

Just about any tax system creates dis-advantages for some and advantages for others....I do think the system should be simplyified, having both PAYE and GST seems a bit silly.....to me the method of collection for tax system to choose should be at the point that it is hardest to dodge and if possible just that one point.......So I'd like to see PAYE dumped for anyone under say 50k but a far higher GST instead.

I like your PAYE and GST ideas Steven. What are the potential problems with these?

And Neville - Uradic...

The Ontario Green Party has a land tax platform
"11) Taxing community-generated land values is beneficial. Since the community around it, not its owner, creates the value of land, the community should receive the benefits it has created. The owner is entitled to a fair profit but not to windfall profits that rightfully belong to the community that generated the wealth in the first place. Under LVT the specific use of the land will not be taxed, only the land itself, within the existing zoning. Community-generated land value taxation encourages the efficient use of land, reduces sprawl, reduces speculation, tends to reduce land prices and improves land use patterns.
"
http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/jong-frank-de_green-party-taxati...

Fine words Neville!

Hubbard, Sally, POP - crack is illegal and we need to pay Gov to police that.. Gov has a role to play, perhaps at a fraction of current spending.

Hubbard, on monetary systems; Sure I'd rather be paid in Gold too but Fiat currency works under the right rules. Loss of central bank control over money supply is to blame (hence oversupply, risk discounting of late and the rise of POP et al) - the root cause is low banking capital reserve ratios and a short term commercial focus on profit/bonuses vs a wider mix of long dated, healthy bank metrics.

Len - I think you're getting close but that's precisely the point, the land tax gets to the source of it, our current tax system is predicated by the issues you allude too. Land is not a form of saving, it is land. Cash (which can be lent to others for productive uses) is saving but the tax system encourages your thinking. Rising land prices = rising national debt. Put the coffee on buddy.

And magnanimous of you landlords to be concerned about the poor renters - if we were fortunate enough as a nation to have such a tax system, sure many landlords would bail out but guess what?, some of those renters would buy their own, more affordable homes!

"Tax Cuts, it has been proven over & over again in all Western democracies that for all tax brackets, for every $1 of tax cut the multiplier effect is $3 "“ now that's a stimulus!"

That's how the economy would grow! People would then invest in their businesses and employ more labour. Investors and entrepreneurs are the only people who can get us out of this mess, but the powers that be, particularly overseas, think they know better and are determined not to let the markets handle the process, come what may.

Governments constantly bring in more and more regulation. Where has that got us? Into one big black hole! We must get rid of the red tape. No more regulation please.

There are too many people in this country that think they are owed a living, without doing the hard graft. We need to stop living a lie and believing an illusion.

Mark Hubbard - I am with you on what you are saying.

given a govt. spend of 35% of GDP

It's higher than that, closer to 50% and that is appalling.

how would you propose to raise the taxes to pay for it ?

I wouldn't. Dumb question. I would slash the size of the state, the only function of which is to run an army and police force (to protect the individual from the use of force), and to provide a framework for a criminal and civil justice system.

Unfortunately, no Statist will ever come to this conclusion, hence the Gulag we're all heading for (and note, the Gulag will quite possibly be a razor wired defended retirement home,it's high walls to keep a third and fourth generation violent youth out, who were bred by the welfare system, have no worth ethic, as their parents didn't, and think I owe them a living (which the government forces on me by paying them to have children. Of course NZ has one of the highest youth violence and child murder rates in the world, it pays people to have children, thus has broken the two emotions that could hold a free world together: love and affection.)

I agree Les.

Look at all the below departments, boards, SOEs and quangos: I contend that probably 80% of them could be done away with tomorrow (including all the local councils), and 99% of Kiwis would not even be aware of their demise. Those not abolished can be privatised. And we'd all be better off. Well, those of us who actually work in the productive sector off which all of the below parasitically feed. And personally, I'd rather be paying the staff in all these places the dole (what, about $20,000 per annum?), than the $70,000 plus salaries they are on now, with many considerably above that, and being paid more often than not to simply put road blocks in the way of individuals and firms in the productive sector.

[Note , my Chch city council rates will be over $100 per week soon. Obscene. Regarding below, the first 'biggy' I'd ditch would be ACC.

* Accident Compensation Corporation
* Accounting Standards Review Board
* AgResearch Limited
* Agricultural and Marketing Research and Development Trust
* AgriQuality Limited
* Airways Corporation of New Zealand Limited
* Alcohol Advisory Council of New Zealand
* Alexander Turnbull Library, part of National Library of New Zealand - Te Puna Matauranga o Aotearoa
* Animal Control Products Limited
* Antarctica New Zealand
* Aoraki Polytechnic
* Archives New Zealand
* Ashburton District Council
* Asia New Zealand Foundation
* Asure New Zealand Limited
* Auckland City Council
* Auckland District Health Board
* Auckland Regional Council
* Auckland University of Technology
* Auckland/Waikato Fish and Game Council
* Audit New Zealand, part of Office of the Controller and Auditor-General
* Aviation Security Service, part of Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand
* Banks Peninsula District Council
* Bay of Plenty District Health Board
* Bay of Plenty Polytechnic
* BIZ Information Centres, part of New Zealand Trade and Enterprise
* Broadcasting Commission
* Broadcasting Standards Authority
* Building Controls, part of Department of Building and Housing
* Buller District Council
* Canterbury District Health Board
* Capital & Coast District Health Board
* Career Services rapuara
* Carterton District Council
* Central Hawke's Bay District Council
* Central Otago District Council
* Central South Island Fish and Game Council
* Chatham Islands Council
* Chief Electoral Office
* Child, Youth and Family
* Christchurch City Council
* Christchurch College of Education
* Christchurch Polytechnic Institute of Technology
* Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand
* Clutha District Council
* Commerce Commission
* Companies Office, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Counties Manukau District Health Board
* Court of Appeal, part of Ministry of Justice
* Creative New Zealand
* Crown Company Monitoring Advisory Unit, part of The Treasury
* Crown Health Financing Agency
* Crown Law Office
* Crown Minerals, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Department of Building and Housing
* Department of Conservation
* Department of Corrections
* Department of Internal Affairs
* Department of Labour
* Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet
* Dispute Resolution Services Ltd , part of Accident Compensation Corporation
* Disputes Tribunal, part of Ministry of Justice
* District Courts, part of Ministry of Justice
* Dunedin City Council
* Dunedin College of Education
* Earthquake Commission
* Eastern Fish and Game Council
* Eastern Institute of Technology
* Education Review Office
* Electoral Commission
* Electoral Enrolment Centre, part of New Zealand Post Limited
* Electrical Workers Registration Board, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Electricity Commission
* Electricity Corporation of New Zealand Limited
* Employment Court, part of Ministry of Justice
* Employment Institutions Information Centre, part of Department of Labour
* Employment Relations Authority, part of Department of Labour
* Employment Relations Infoline, part of Department of Labour
* Employment Relations Service, part of Department of Labour
* Energy Efficiency & Conservation Authority
* Energy Safety Service, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Environmental Risk Management Authority
* Environment Bay of Plenty
* Environment Canterbury
* Environment Court, part of Ministry of Justice
* Environment Southland
* Environment Waikato
* Families Commission
* Family and Community Services, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Family Court, part of Ministry of Justice
* Far North District Council
* Fish & Game New Zealand
* Food Standards Australia New Zealand
* Foundation for Research Science & Technology
* Franklin District Council
* Gambling Commission
* Genesis Power Limited
* Gisborne District Council
* Gore District Council
* Government Communications Security Bureau
* Government Superannuation Fund Authority
* Governor-General
* Greater Wellington - The Regional Council
* Grey District Council
* Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation
* Hamilton City Council
* Hastings District Council
* Hauraki District Council
* Hawke's Bay District Health Board
* Hawke's Bay Fish and Game Council
* Hawke's Bay Regional Council
* Health and Disability Commissioner
* Healthline, part of Ministry of Health
* Health Research Council of New Zealand
* Health Sponsorship Council
* Heartland Services, part of Ministry of Social Development
* High Court, part of Ministry of Justice
* Horizons Regional Council
* Horowhenua District Council
* HortResearch
* Housing New Zealand Corporation
* Human Rights Commission
* Hurunui District Council
* Hutt City Council
* Hutt Valley District Health Board
* Immunisation Advisory Centre, part of Ministry of Health
* Industrial Research Limited
* Industry Capability Network, part of New Zealand Trade and Enterprise
* Inland Revenue Department
* Insolvency and Trustee Service, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Institute of Environmental Science and Research Limited
* Institute of Geological and Nuclear Sciences Limited
* Intellectual Property Office of New Zealand, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* International Accreditation New Zealand, part of Testing Laboratory Registration Council
* International Services, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Invercargill City Council
* Investment New Zealand, part of New Zealand Trade and Enterprise
* Kaikoura District Council
* Kaipara District Council
* Kapiti Coast District Council
* Kawerau District Council
* Labour Inspectorate, part of Department of Labour
* Lakes District Health Board
* Landcare Research New Zealand Limited
* Landcorp Farming Limited
* Land Information New Zealand
* Land Transport New Zealand
* Law Commission
* Leadership Development Centre
* Learning Media Limited
* Legal Aid Review Panel
* Legal Services Agency
* Legislation Advisory Committee, part of Ministry of Justice
* Lincoln University
* Mackenzie District Council
* Manawatu District Council
* Manukau City Council
* Manukau Institute of Technology
* Maori Land Court, part of Ministry of Justice
* Maori Television
* Maori Trust Office, part of Te Puni Kokiri
* Maritime Safety Authority of New Zealand
* Marlborough District Council
* Massey University
* Masterton District Council
* Matamata-Piako District Council
* Maternity Services, part of Ministry of Health
* Measurement and Product Safety Service, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Mediation Service, part of Department of Labour
* Medsafe, part of Ministry of Health
* Mental Health Commission
* Meridian Energy Limited
* Meteorological Service of New Zealand Limited
* MidCentral District Health Board
* Mighty River Power Limited
* Ministry for Culture and Heritage
* Ministry for the Environment
* Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry
* Ministry of Civil Defence and Emergency Management, part of Department of Internal Affairs
* Ministry of Consumer Affairs, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Ministry of Defence
* Ministry of Economic Development
* Ministry of Education
* Ministry of Fisheries
* Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade
* Ministry of Health
* Ministry of Justice
* Ministry of Pacific Island Affairs
* Ministry of Research, Science & Technology
* Ministry of Social Development
* Ministry of Tourism, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Ministry of Transport
* Ministry of Women's Affairs
* Ministry of Youth Development
* Motor Vehicle Traders Register, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa
* Napier City Council
* National Advisory Council on the Employment of Women, part of Department of Labour
* National Health Committee, part of Ministry of Health
* National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research Limited
* National Library of New Zealand - Te Puna Matauranga o Aotearoa
* National Radiation Laboratory, part of Ministry of Health
* National Rural Fire Authority, part of New Zealand Fire Service Commission
* National Screening Unit, part of Ministry of Health
* Nelson City Council
* Nelson Marlborough District Health Board
* Nelson/Marlborough Fish and Game Council
* Nelson Marlborough Institute of Technology
* New Plymouth District Council
* New Zealand Agency for International Development, part of Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade
* New Zealand Army, part of New Zealand Defence Force
* New Zealand Artificial Limb Board
* New Zealand Blood Service
* New Zealand Climate Change Office, part of Ministry for the Environment
* New Zealand Customs Service
* New Zealand Debt Management Office, part of The Treasury
* New Zealand Defence Force
* New Zealand Export Credit Office, part of The Treasury
* New Zealand Film Commission
* New Zealand Fire Service, part of New Zealand Fire Service Commission
* New Zealand Fire Service Commission
* New Zealand Food Safety Authority
* New Zealand Game Bird Habitat Trust Board
* New Zealand Geographic Board
* New Zealand Government
* New Zealand Health Information Service, part of Ministry of Health
* New Zealand Historic Places Trust
* New Zealand Immigration Service, part of Department of Labour
* New Zealand Institute for Crop and Food Research Limited
* New Zealand Lotteries Commission
* New Zealand Lottery Grants Board
* New Zealand Parole Board
* New Zealand Police
* New Zealand Post Limited
* New Zealand Qualifications Authority
* New Zealand Railways Corporation
* New Zealand Security Intelligence Service
* New Zealand Sports Drug Agency
* New Zealand Symphony Orchestra
* New Zealand Teachers Council
* New Zealand Trade and Enterprise
* New Zealand Valuers Registration Board
* New Zealand Venture Investment Fund Limited
* New Zealand Vice-Chancellors' Committee
* Ngai Tahu Ancillary Claims Trust
* North Canterbury Fish and Game Council
* Northland District Health Board
* Northland Fish and Game Council
* Northland Polytechnic
* Northland Regional Council
* North Shore City Council
* Occupational Safety and Health Service, part of Department of Labour
* Office for Disability Issues, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Office for Senior Citizens, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Office for the Community and Voluntary Sector, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Office of Ethnic Affairs, part of Department of Internal Affairs
* Office of Film and Literature Classification
* Office of Human Rights Proceedings, part of Human Rights Commission
* Office of the Children's Commissioner
* Office of the Clerk of the House of Representatives
* Office of the Controller and Auditor-General
* Office of the Ombudsmen
* Office of the Privacy Commissioner
* Office of Treaty Settlements, part of Ministry of Justice
* Open Polytechnic of New Zealand
* Opotiki District Council
* Otago District Health Board
* Otago Fish and Game Council
* Otago Polytechnic
* Otago Regional Council
* Otorohanga District Council
* Overseas Investment Commission
* Pacific Business Trust
* Palmerston North City Council
* Papakura District Council
* Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment
* Parliamentary Counsel Office
* Parliamentary Service
* Personal Property Securities Register, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Pharmaceutical Management Agency Limited
* Plant Variety Rights Office, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Police Complaints Authority
* Porirua City Council
* Public Sector Training Organisation
* Public Trust
* Qualmark New Zealand Limited
* Queen Elizabeth II National Trust
* Queenstown-Lakes District Council
* Quotable Value Limited
* Radio New Zealand Limited
* Radio Spectrum Management, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Rangitikei District Council
* Refugee Status Appeals Authority
* Registrar of Unions, part of Department of Labour
* Removal Review Authority
* Remuneration Authority, part of Department of Labour
* Research, Information and Capability Group, part of Ministry of Economic Development
* Reserve Bank of New Zealand
* Residence Review Board
* Retirement Commission, Whiriwhiria!
* Road Safety Trust
* Rodney District Council
* Rotorua District Council
* Royal New Zealand Airforce, part of New Zealand Defence Force
* Royal New Zealand Navy, part of New Zealand Defence Force
* Royal Society of New Zealand
* Ruapehu District Council
* School Services, part of National Library of New Zealand - Te Puna Matauranga o Aotearoa
* Scion
* Securities Commission
* Selwyn District Council
* Serious Fraud Office
* Solid Energy New Zealand Limited
* South Canterbury District Health Board
* Southern Institute of Technology
* Southland District Council
* Southland District Health Board
* Southland Fish and Game Council
* South Taranaki District Council
* South Waikato District Council
* South Wairarapa District Council
* SPEaR, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Sport and Recreation New Zealand
* Standards New Zealand
* State Housing Appeals Authority, part of Department of Building and Housing
* State Services Commission
* Statistics New Zealand
* Stratford District Council
* StudyLink, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Supreme Court of New Zealand, part of Ministry of Justice
* Tai Poutini Polytechnic
* Tairawhiti District Health
* Tairawhiti Polytechnic
* Takeovers Panel
* Taranaki District Health Board
* Taranaki Fish and Game Council
* Taranaki Regional Council
* Tararua District Council
* Tasman District Council
* Taupo District Council
* Tauranga City Council
* TeachNZ, part of Ministry of Education
* Television New Zealand Limited
* Telford Rural Polytechnic
* Te Mangai Paho
* Te Matatini Society Incorporated
* Tenancy Services, part of Department of Building and Housing
* Te Puni Kokiri
* Tertiary Education Commission
* Testing Laboratory Registration Council
* Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Maori (Maori Language Commission)
* Te Wananga o Aotearoa
* Te Wananga-o-Raukawa
* Te Whare Wananga o Awanuiarangi
* Thames-Coromandel District Council
* The Correspondence School
* The Treasury
* Timaru District Council
* Timberlands West Coast Limited
* Toi Te Taiao: The Bioethics Council
* Tourism New Zealand
* Transit New Zealand
* Transmission Holdings Limited
* Transport Accident Investigation Commission
* Transpower New Zealand Limited
* Treaty of Waitangi Fisheries Commission
* UNESCO Secretariat for the New Zealand National Commission
* Unitec Institute of Technology
* Universal College of Learning
* University of Auckland
* University of Canterbury
* University of Otago
* University of Waikato
* Upper Hutt City Council
* Veterans' Affairs New Zealand
* Victoria University of Wellington
* Waiariki Institute of Technology
* Waikato District Council
* Waikato District Health Board
* Waikato Institute of Technology
* Waimakariri District Council
* Waimate District Council
* Waipa District Council
* Wairarapa District Health Board
* Wairoa District Council
* Waitakere City Council
* Waitaki District Council
* Waitangi Tribunal, part of Ministry of Justice
* Waitemata District Health Board
* Waitomo District Council
* Wanganui District Council
* Wanganui UCOL, part of Universal College of Learning
* War Pension Services, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Wellington City Council
* Wellington Fish and Game Council
* Wellington Institute of Technology
* West Coast District Health Board
* West Coast Fish and Game Council
* West Coast Regional Council
* Western Bay of Plenty District Council
* Western Institute of Technology at Taranaki
* Westland District Council
* Whakatane District Council
* Whanganui District Health Board
* Whangarei District Council
* Whitireia Community Polytechnic
* Work and Income, part of Ministry of Social Development
* Youth Court, part of Ministry of Justice

I think Les Rudd should get a medal. He persists in calmly explaining that a State is more than an Army and Police Force. It is sad that blogs are assaulted by people with extremely anti-social views. I believe in comapssion and a welfare state, and believe these are compatible with economic growth and productivity. I am writing these articles to try to do my bit in getting us up the OECD ladder.

I am disappointed that several commentators cannot enter a discourse about making a tax system that also increases productivity. Having said that, I thanl commentators that do apreciate the issues, and it is awesome to see Green policy Canada etc cited as this is an important debate.

I am sometimes actualy asked to TReasury to exchange views on productivity, and like the way so many people have made very very positive comments and have also made comparisons with NZ's pat and Australia etc

thanks for a great blog!

Neville, Neville, Neville, sigh...

I believe in comapssion and a welfare state

Oxymoron. The welfare state is the ultimate compassionless state, there is very little more evil, other than, perhaps, a theocracy.

Remember that ultimate welfare state, the Soviet Union? They thought they had a free health system, yet it ended up costing them everything they had.

Neville - thanks for the commendation. I'm not sure I deserve it but I reckon there are a good few on Mark's list that deserve a DCM!

Perhaps Chomsky (my favourite anarchist!) can help (from Wiki):

Chomsky is scathing in his opposition to the view that anarchism is inconsistent with support for 'welfare state' measures, stating in part that:

"One can, of course, take the position that we don't care about the problems people face today, and want to think about a possible tomorrow. OK, but then don't pretend to have any interest in human beings and their fate, and stay in the seminar room and intellectual coffee house with other privileged people. Or one can take a much more humane position: I want to work, today, to build a better society for tomorrow -- the classical anarchist position, quite different from the slogans in the question. That's exactly right, and it leads directly to support for the people facing problems today: for enforcement of health and safety regulation, provision of national health insurance, support systems for people who need them, etc. That is not a sufficient condition for organizing for a different and better future, but it is a necessary condition. Anything else will receive the well-merited contempt of people who do not have the luxury to disregard the circumstances in which they live, and try to survive".

Neville - I applaud your effort at pursuing a fairer tax system that is not as easy for to many to opt out of and leave it to the PAYE who dont get to have a fiddle.
Compliance has been the bane of most anything attempted in history. My view on the wider story of taxes are already well known, but for any new comers that may not have seen them. The problem is not how much of our GDP is going to pay for government, the problem is how much of GDP is going to service foreign debt, including that owed by government;
http://socialcreditorbust.blog.co.nz/solutions%20for%20credit%20crisis/

Mark Hubbard - Many of those institutions you posted have been added since we were put into receivership by our international financiers for the first time in 1961(2nd 1984, 3rd today) From that day on we have had imposed upon us all manner of financial deregulation and policy that has clearly not favoured the society as a whole, but driven us to further debt crisis and further surrendering of efforts and assets for temporary debt relief.
These imposed policies extend to the hiring and firing of our bureaucrats at national and local govt level. These banker co-operative bureaucrats have been complicit in running this country at a strategic deficit that would eventually see our entire means of production sold off to private interests for debt reduction, most of our citizenship tribute paying serfs. Debts they knew and never intended we be able to repay from the beginning. Hence the ballooning cost of the state has been to the benefit of those within it that wear two hats;
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice
http://www.newint.org/features/2004/03/01/imf-failure/

You and I agree on the separation of business and state, but with different interpretation, you promote state staying completely out of business altogether. Where as the separation I am talking of is a separation along the lines of the separation of the Executive, Legislature and the Judiciary, designed to prevent the tyrannies of old where the power was centralised in the hands of the few. In the global inquiries of the 1930s and 1950s into international banking practice the private banking sector claimed they could be trusted to administer the credit creation mechanism because the state had the balance of power to set the conditions of credit.
That separation of power has since been dismantled and no longer exists, with the private bankers calling the shots on an international scale.
Their must be a return to that divide of power, but like the compliance issues of tax systems it also quite simply comes down to the decency of the strongest influential entity of the time.

Sorry if I am a bit blunt for some, but the time for beating around the bush is quite possibly already passed.

@Mark

The challenge was if one MUST raise 35% of GDP in taxes how would one do it.

You avoided the question and promptly went on spending cut mission. I've done the hard work for you, and come up with a figure of 35% which is a massive cut in what we spend now, but still potentially realistic politically.

Can you suspend the libertarian blinkers and indulge in a bit of real world politique? I'll ask the question again, if you were appointed Minister of Finance and told you had complete freedom to raise a variety of taxes but you must RAISE 35% of GDP in income through taxes, how would you accomplish this?

Building for "capital gain" (apologies for my repeated use of the "scare quotes", but the gain isn't in anything Adam Smith would recognise as Capital) makes houses larger, but more importantly it spreads them out, since it is only the land component of the land+house package that gains in value. Imagine yourself looking for an ideal place to rent (on a long term lease), and then imagine looking for an ideal place to buy - would you be be looking for different qualities in the two different cases? Most people are less willing to rent a spare bedroom (why waste money) than they are to buy one (after all, it's not really spending, it's just making a slightly larger "investment"). Same goes for the view and the lawn.

STUPID PROPERTY OWNERS
The taxes that property owners hate most are the ones that hurt them least and are most likely to be spent for their benefit, writes Gavin R. Putland.

How true, Gavin, how true! www.lvrg.org.au

Alistair - I fear you are wasting your time. It appears that most in this nation, and many others for that matter, think that the Rothchilds and the Rockefellers are myths from the middle ages. This dispite that fact that one Rob Cameron who has just been appointed by the National Party to every committee and board going having just signed up (2008) to become a junior venture partner with Rothchild Australia;
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=1052...

Prior to Cameron Partners becoming the central bankers co-operative in NZ as we are being prepared forsale by our liquidators, ABN AMRO Craigs was the formal co-operative of the Rothschilds downunder;
http://www.careerone.com.au/research-companies/abn-amro-australia
until 2007;
http://www.bankingtimes.co.uk/14122007-abn-amro-rothschild-deal-comes-to...

Thank You for The Nice Read!! I have heard Absolutely Free Credit Report is a quality place to aquire my free credit report & see the score 4 free. Anyone else used it?