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Thursday's Top 10 with NZ Mint: Student loan witch hunt begins; 'US worse than Roman empire near the end'; Broken levers; Angry aliens; Dilbert

Here are my Top 10 links from around the Internet at 10 to 3pm brought to you in association with New Zealand Mint for your afternoon reading pleasure.
My apologies for lateness today. Tad busy with the rate hike.
I welcome your additions and comments below, or please send suggestions for Thursday's Top 10 at 10 via email to bernard.hickey@interest.co.nz.
I'll pop any surplus suggestions I get into the comment stream under the Top 10.
1. Defaulting student loans - It seems like the government is on the warpath over interest free student loans. They are New Zealand's own little sub price prime crisis.
No wonder people are defaulting on loans they never expected to repay and weren't having to service. What was Labour thinking when it introduced the policy and when National supported it? Just plain nuts.
There's even talk now from Stephen Joyce of chasing down delinquents overseas. Good luck with that. Here's the report on Stuff.
Related Topics
"There are some big issues around how much we write off on student loans," Tertiary Education Minister Steven Joyce said last night. "And one of the reasons is this long tail of borrowers who go overseas and don't make their repayments." Figures show overdue repayments from expats grew 111.1 per cent last year. A
nd ex-students living overseas owe 20 per cent of the total amount despite making up only 14.65 per cent of all borrowers.
Overdue repayments from overseas-based people grew 111.1 per cent last year from $54 million in 2008 to $114m. Overseas borrowers represented 14.65 per cent of all. Yet, they owe 20.9 per cent of the nominal debt. There were 82,337 overseas borrowers last year, up by 7.2 per cent from 76,777 in 2008 .
2. Both levers are broken - Keynesian economist Joseph Stiglitz is worth listening to because he seems to have the ear of the US government and isn't captured by the banks. He was interviewed this week by Kerry O'Brien of the ABC in Australia.
Stiglitz pointed out there wasn't much that either the US Federal Reserve or the US Government could do to avoid another recession over there. HT John Walley via email. Stiglitz was also interviewed here at SMH.com.au.
We've reached in some sense the end of the tether. Monetary policy has almost no power to stimulate the economy. The Federal Reserve already has on its books more than a trillion dollars of mortgages. We've become not the lender of last resort, but essentially the lender of first resort for the entire housing market of the United States. So - and we're supposed to be exiting from that. So, monetary policy has reached its limits and unfortunately, fiscal policy has reached its (political) limits.
He is also surprisingly bleak about the financial outlook, given his closeness to Obama, who has trumpeted the recent financial law reforms.
Stiglitz says the 'Too Big To Fail' banks have not been reined in by latest reforms and another disaster is inevitable.
It can and it almost surely will happen again, because we didn't deal with the problem of too-big-to-fail banks. It is one of the reasons why it will happen again. And we didn't really deal effectively with all the kinds of excessive risk-taking, all the problems of lack of transparency that were at the core of this crisis.
And so, yes, we understand what the issues are, we understand the issues better than we did three years ago, but politics intruded the power of the banks, was too great. They're making US$20 billion off of derivatives. So rather than lending, they're engaged in all of these kinds of gambling and excessive risk-taking and generating large profits, but it's not helping the American economy and it's putting at risk American taxpayers.
3. The massive retracement - US house prices are still falling and are set to fall further, the Big Picture reports. HT John Walley via email.
4. Bubble blowing didn't work - This chart below from Boom-Bust blog shows that any attempt by the US authorities in early 2009 to reflate the housing bubble has failed. Click on the chart for a bigger, more legible version. The US housing market is still in an awful mess and it's becoming clearer that the US banks aren't keeping their books up to date.
This piece from Reggie Middleton at Huffington Post is very interesting, including this comment from a mortgage broker explaining why the banks are reporting lower delinquency rates.
I recently came across a new mortgage client who was referred to me and I thought I’d share it with you for a potential story. These particular clients had a house which they were way upside down on, so last year they went ahead and purchased another house under an FHA loan with 3.5% down and immediately let the old, upside down house go into foreclosure thereafter.
These particular clients called me to see if they could refinance their new home’s FHA loan to a lower rate. I told them that it would be near impossible because of the damage done to their credit by the foreclosure on the previous house. They were adamant that their scores were still in the high 670’s and so I ran both of their credit reports. Sure enough, his middle score was a 674 and her score was a 678. When I looked at the previous mortgage, it showed as “FORECLOSED- NO DELINQUENCIES”!!!
When I asked them they stated that they hadn’t made a payment to the bank for more than a year prior to the foreclosure on their house. Same is true for many loan modification cases that I have come across. While the banks are dragging out the process with the borrowers, who are living in the homes 100% mortgage free, their statements reflect the borrowers as being current every month. Is that not just absolutely ridiculous!?!?
This is blatant fraud! While Bank CEO/CFOs are going on their quarterly calls and lying to investors about how they are reducing their loan loss reserves due to their delinquency rates being substantially lower, they are deliberately falsifying their credit ratings while foreclosing on homeowners.
What happens when these banks end up losing billions of dollars on all of these foreclosures after depleting their loan loss reserves? More of 2008 is what I imagine. Except their won’t be any more bailouts.
5. 'Worse than the Roman empire' - The former legal counsel for Long Term Capital Management, Jim Rickards (No relation of Clint....) has looked at differences between the Roman empire in its final stages and the US empire now.
He has concluded that the US empire has many of the same characteristics of the Roman empire just before it imploded and in fact has higher debt. Tyler Durden at Zerohedge points to the story.
The similarities are just far too many, starting with the debasement of the currencies, whereby Rome's silver dinarius started out pure and eventually barely had a 5% content, and the ever increasing taxation of the population, and especially the most productive segment - the farmers, by the emperors, to the point where the downfall of empire was actually greeted by the bulk of the people as the barbarians were welcomed at the gate with open arms.
The one key difference highlighted by Rickards: that Rome was not as indebted to the gills as is the US. Accordingly, the US is in fact in a far worse shape than Rome, as the ever increasing cost of funding the debt can only come from further currency debasement, which in turn merely stimulates greater taxation, and more printing of debt, accelerating the downward loop of social disintegration.
Furthermore, Rickards points out that unlike the Romans, we are way beyond the point of diminishing marginal utility, and the amount of money that must be printed, borrowed, taxed and spent for marginal improvements in the way of life, from a sociological standpoint, is exponentially greater than those during Roman times.
6. Hasta la Vista, baby - Reuters reports California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has declared a state of fiscal emergency in his state, which means public servants will be forced to take 3 days off each month without pay. Because the state can no longer afford to pay them.
"Without a budget in place that addresses our $19 billion budget deficit, every day of delay brings California closer to a fiscal meltdown," Schwarzenegger said in a statement. "Our cash situation leaves me no choice but to once again furlough state workers until the legislature produces a budget I can sign," he wrote.
Schwarzenegger's declaration noted the state's government is projected to run out of cash no later than October should its budget stalemate persist, as expected. California has a long history of nasty and lengthy budget battles. Last year, the fight over a spending plan dragged on so long the state controller had to issue IOUs instead of payments to vendors to conserve money for priority payments, including payments for education programs and for investors holding the state's bonds.
6. 'Mum, they're throwing rocks at me' - Bloody aliens. HT to Troy for this piece of amusement in The Daily Telegraph. A Bosnian man's house keeps getting hit by meteorites. It is happening so often he has put up a steel girder reinforced roof. He has an explanation though.
After the fifth rock struck his house, he said: 'I am obviously being targeted by extraterrestrials. I don't know what I have done to annoy them but there is no other explanation that makes sense. The chance of being hit by a meteorite is so small that getting hit six times has to be deliberate.'
7. Buy baked beans and a shotgun - Not really. But you get the drift. Chris Martenson is no nutter or mug. A former banking executive, he is now an independent a banking analyst who predicted the crisis. He has written a book about how to survive a economic meltdown. This preview is fascinating. HT Gertraud via email.
Six years ago, I began to address these questions for myself and my family. I'll be honest; my first motivation came from a place of fear and worry. I worried that I could not predict when and where an economic collapse might begin. I fretted that the pace of the change would overwhelm the ability of our key social institutions and support systems to adapt and provide.
I darkly imagined what might happen if a Katrina-sized financial storm swept through the banking system. I was caught up in fear.
But I am no longer in that frame of mind. Here, six years later, I am in a state of acceptance about what the future might bring (although I am concerned), and I have made it my life's work to help others achieve a similar measure of peace. While I am quite uncertain about what might unfold and when, I am positive that anyone can undertake some basic preparations relatively cheaply and will feel better for having done so. I am passionately interested in helping others to gracefully adapt their lifestyles and adjust their expectations to a very different-looking sort of future. I have no interest in scaring you further, or having you approach the future with trepidation, anxiety, or fear.
Quite the opposite. I want to let you know that adjusting and adapting can be one of the most rewarding and fulfilling journeys you could undertake. It has been so for our family.
8. Real cheap Greek villas - Bloomberg is reporting that villas on Greek Islands are being marked down by 45% because of the crisis there. HT Gertraud. But not cheap enough yet.
A half-built villa on Mykonos, an island in the Aegean Sea known for its all-night beach parties, is being offered by brokers at Athens-based PloumisSotiropoulos OE for 2 million euros ($2.6 million) after the price was reduced by 500,000 euros. The same firm is seeking a buyer for a three-bedroom home on Corfu for 750,000 euros, down from an original asking price of 1.4 million euros.
So far, no bidders have emerged. “It’s a scary place to invest right now,” said Mike Braunholtz, a broker at Prestige Property Group, which markets properties on the Greek islands. “Things aren’t going to improve until the economic picture becomes clearer.”
9. Chinese banking cultural problems - China expert Patrick Chovanec has written at The Business Insider about the problems inside China's banks. Here he talks about a cultural problem that has not been fixed by various joint ventures and MBA style training course for managers. HT Hugh P via email. They're all afraid of the bullet in the back of the head that their family will have to pay for....
The picture that emerges is one in which Chinese banks, despite a decade of reforms, remain more political than business entities.
Chinese banks have invested heavily in risk management systems and training staff in credit analysis, and have engaged in joint ventures with foreign banks intended to boost their technical skills and product offerings.
But Gary Liu, deputy director of Shanghai-based CEIBS Lujiazui International Finance Research Center, reports that “[Chinese bank] executives are not really managers, but government officials.” Strategic investors with a seat on the board have some voice, says Wendy Dobson, an economics professor and director of the Institute for International Business at the University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Management, “but the boards are still stacked with people from the party.”
“The regulatory environment,” she explains, “is one where the government still sets interest rates and all the banks have access to low risk spread income so they have very little incentive to manage risk.” The result is a situation where bankers are trained to act one way, but conditioned to behave in another. Wharton professor Marshall Meyer recalls a recent trip to China where one bank manager lamented that he had to choose between “being a responsible banker and keeping my job.”
10. Totally irrelevant video about goatee beards - I think they're fashionable too... Jon Stewart is growing one now
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| Intro - Jon Starts a Goatee Trend | ||||
|
||||
11. Totally relevant video - Jon Stewart also talks about the US government's decision to increase its debt ceiling. It seems the solution for America's debt probloem is to turn lead into gold, using science...or to ransom pandas.
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| You're Welcome - Debt Ceiling | ||||
|
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128 Comments
#1 - The problem with the
#1 - The problem with the student loan issue is that the people debating it are the ones who got their tertiary education for free.
Sorry, but unless you've experienced starting out in life not just with nothing, but with worse than nothing (tens of thousands of dollars in debt), then today's heavily indebted generation are not going to listen to anything you have to say.
Go overseas or face living in NZ with a mountain of debt on low wages? Hmmm......
The ones debating it probably
The ones debating it probably didn't get a terriary education. They got out to work, and didn't get a, what was it that was in the paper today; a PHD in Contemporary Music!
Got that slightly wrong - a
Got that slightly wrong - a PHD in Rock Music Iconography , from Otago University !
So all the mechanical and
So all the mechanical and civil and electrical engineers wasted their time? How about people with degrees in physics, chemistry, biology...the people whose research and development ultimately lead to the exciting consumer products you so desperately crave? How about the teachers? Should they have "got a real job" instead?
And only a very small percentage of university students (and an even smaller percentage of grads) are doing Film and Media Studies or Maori Studies courses, or whatever else it is you consider to be "a waste of time". Most students and grads work damn hard -- harder than the vast majority of their critics -- to earn valuable and useful and worthwhile qualifications.
Or do you think everybody should be a plumber or small engine mechanic?
i totally agree i have a
i totally agree
i have a wife and kids and a student loan. i basically pay 48% tax and it just goes on and on. this is just one more way that the middle class get screwed. i don't rape or kill or embezzle, don't smoke, drink or beat my kids, and perform a useful job, but i'm under the kosh.
if those douchebags start charging interest again (and to whom exactly, may i ask? ) i'll be on a plane faster than you can say "unintended consequences" and will not be back.
how about we bill all 'boomers over 50 with a net worth of $750k pay for the free education they got? oh and the free health care they got. oh and we should bill them for the environmental degradation they have permitted since 1950 too....... bunch of hypocrites.
So what was your degree (?)
So what was your degree (?) in? Maybe you're a doctor or a dentsit and needed the further eductaion. But many just 'go' as a matter of course, and it doesn't aid their employment attributes more than 'on the job trainig' would have done.
I'll be honest & state up
I'll be honest & state up front that I don't know everything that happened during that period, however...
In the 90s when Student Loans were accelerating hadn't 'on the job training' in the form of the apprenticeship schemes been effectively gutted anyway?
Again the thing you don't
Again the thing you don't seem to understand is you have implemented a system where you don't get the interview UNLESS you HAVE the piece of stupid paper! Despite on the job training being perfectly adequate....deluded to the reality!
Spoken like somebody who left
Spoken like somebody who left school at 15 without even bothering to get School Cert.
I feel the one without NCEA
I feel the one without NCEA level one would be you sir, if you are unable to infer I'm extremely angry at being in big debt and you BB's desperately trying to charge me interest.
Agree completely, I hate
Agree completely, I hate living here when half my wage gets taken away in tax and repayments. Thus am planning to escape as we speak.
Bernard Hickey and all his hangers-on on this site seem to think it was always this way, they seem to have a cognitive disconnect between how they started out their working lives and how we have to start out, tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Ar$eholes
How do you see it as 'debt'?
How do you see it as 'debt'? Surely, it's an investment. An investment in your future that will be repaid hansomly by the additional earning power that you have provided for yourself? A chance at life provided for you by the country that you reside in.
I think the problem for my
I think the problem for my generation comes from a sense that our parent's generation didn't have to pay the same cost for the 'investment'; and that due to the same generation's reluctance to pay for most other things (including their retirements) the cost to us for everything is only going to go up in years to come. We'll end up paying for them, ourselves & hopefully our children all at the same time.
That's it. They wanted it
That's it.
They wanted it all for free, they got it all for free, they still want everything for free, and they're still getting everything for free.
It was their parents and grandparents who let them have everything for free, but now they expect their kids and grandkids to give them everything for free.
And then they claim that moral and ethical standards are slipping.
The other thing is the
The other thing is the complete lack of political solidarity in our generation. If we were smart we would be lobbying hard for loan write-offs and the reinstatement of free education linked to entrance criteria.
Well that's what it's been
Well that's what it's been sold as yes.
The reality is wages haven't grown as much as debt growth and costs of education, mostly living cost rises.
I agree with some of your
I agree with some of your sentiment, though I don't see it being constructive. Plus Bernard's not all that old & Student Loans have been around since the early 90s have they not?
And let's'be honest. It's
And let's'be honest. It's student debts taken on wiliingly. What about the previous generations that had no choice in the matter of risking their lives in conflicts not of their making? All so future generations could have that choice as to " what debts they choose to rack up for their own betterment"
I'm not sure that's a useful
I'm not sure that's a useful line to draw between two vastly different things.
It's excatly the same thing,
It's excatly the same thing, jimmy. Each generation thinks the last lot had it better. It's a perpective thing. And in truth, it's just as hard, but in different ways, for all of us. Those who are seen as 'bludging' of the young today, grew up under the 'promise' that if they forfeited any number of things, the future would 'pay' for it. We now accept that 'the future' can't. Grizzling about whose fault it is/was gets us nowhere. We have , what we have. Student loans are a fact of life to be dealt with. End of story.
I agree completely that
I agree completely that student loans are a fact of life that need to be dealt with; what I disagree with is that this is just one thing that we cannot afford.
What about pensions, healthcare for the elderly etc - why can't we have a debate about that? I suspect the answer has been alluded to elsewhere in these comments. My generation suffer from a distinct lack of solidarity, we couldn't organise to make our thoughts heard even if we wanted to.
Is there an equivalent of
Is there an equivalent of Godwin's Law for "what about the war generation!"?
The previous generation never
The previous generation never went to war, aside from an incredibly tiny few who saw action in Vietnam.
The generation who fought in WW2 are almost all gone, but their legacy lives on in their freeloading, rapaciously greedy children, who took everything their parents skrimped and saved and sacrificed for and sold it cheap for lots of houses and flash cars.
Who pays the price for that? Their children and grandchildren and beyond.
Not all future generations,
Not all future generations, just the x and y generations and their kids choose what debt.
Boomers got everything for free, health, education and a sweet retirement. Affordable housing (on one income) and got to both sell off and buy assets such as telecom, the forests, electricity etc.
That was the nature of it then, and so crack on, but do not tell the generations behind how tough it was while we are paying for our retirement, education, ridiculous housing costs as well as your sweet retirement.
Student loans are just that,
Student loans are just that, loans, unfortunately the students don't seem to understand that anymore? I started University in 1999 and finished in 2003 so my experience was somewhere in the middle...
I had a student loan and as long as I studied full time this was interest free. While studying full time I worked two jobs and averaged at least 30hrs per week, I still had an A average and a social life. I received no allowance and flatted paying rent etc from my wages, I bought some things I wanted, but I saved a lot and made use of term deposits to put these savings at arms length.
When I finished my degree my loan remained interest free so long as I earnt less than a certain threshold, ~$14k p/a I think. As soon as I earnt more than this I was charged interest, and when that happened I withdrew my savings and started paying off my loan asap. Less than two years after completing my degree I had paid off my entire $26,000 loan; that was an accomplishment I celebrated each year for some time.
Students these days complain prior generations received this for free but when my parents finished school only the very top percentage of students got an (almost) free University education and the vast majority didn't get to go at all. There were no I.O.U's. These days almost anyone can go, but it costs money. If you don't want to pay you can get help or a scholarship if you work hard, if not you pay like the rest of us.
I was quite happy with the situation I experienced and it seemed very fair so I believe it's quite reasonable to charge interest on student loans once the students earn over a certain threshold, to put a time limit on studies to prevent 'professional students' abusing the system, and to enforce a minimum pass rate. I also don't believe loans should be wiped after seven years; if there's one thing my generation and those that have come after need to learn it's that actions have consequences and debts must be repaid.
Higher education is a good thing and something most students should aspire to, but it's not an entitlement, just like everything else in life you have to earn it.
Well said, I did exactly what
Well said, I did exactly what you did and saved and worked while studying and paid off the loan within 1 year of graduating. With the overseas expats most got their loan and their degree and then buggered of to do the OE, cheeky!
Well said or else, on so many
Well said or else, on so many levels. Those without degrees should try their best to imagine what would have happened to New Zealand on the global stage if we had not implemented student loans in the 1990's. Catastrophe.
None of the BB generation in
None of the BB generation in my family went to uni. In fact none of them even left school with a qualification. Yet they pretty much all retired at 50.
I find it sad that in NZ so
I find it sad that in NZ so many educated people start their adult life with a mountain of debt. It is even sadder that a large number of our smartest young people leave the country precisely to escape that debt. Surely it can't be good for NZ to not only lose their brains but also have the debt remain unpaid because so many are prepared to leave permanently.
As an outsider it seems clear that something in the tertiary education system is broken. Mind you, I don't have a magic solution but I don't think that playing pass-the-parcel-of-blame from one generation to another is going to be hugely helpful.
Why doesn't the govt try to make working in NZ more attractive for these young people, by for example writing off 1K (or whatever) of one's student debt per year worked in NZ, say, for the first 10 years after graduation? It can't be worse than having the debt accruing interest but never getting repaid anyway. Just applying a disincentive for going to work overseas (interest) is obviously not enough seeing that people are prepared to go in exile forever.
Or what about considering making some courses free (ouch, I'm totally prepared to get hell for writing this), eg those degrees that we know we need more people qualifying with, like doctors (there has been such a shortage of on-duty doctors in Chch during the last 4 week-ends that it is apparently putting patients' safety at risk), scientists, engineers or whatever else we need. The courses that are proven to lead nowhere except the dole on the other hand could be made more expensive (ouch again)... What about making the fee subsidies dependant on one’s marks, like is the case in other countries and seems to work, and by "dependant on marks" I don't mean just an average 50%. Then people who know they don't really have what it takes to qualify, or don't really want to study maybe wouldn't bother (what's the point if you're gonna get kicked out + hit with a bill after a year)?
Unfortunately Elley, a very
Unfortunately Elley, a very large percentage of New Zealanders view tertiary education as an unjustifiable extravagance wasted upon wannabe Ivory Tower elitists.
If they had there way nobody would have any education beyond, say, a motor vehicle mechanic apprenticeship.
Naturally it's a self-perpetuating attitude: the smaller the number of people with a decent education, the greater the number of those who don't value a decent education.
The trouble with something
The trouble with something free is that people don't value it. New Zealanders treat tertiary education casually and many drop out. Free education encourages that. In the USA university fees are $40k per year compared to our $5k. How about the parents helping their kids where possible? How many wealthy parents do very little for their kids education and hope the taxpayer will pay?
Yes, but the trouble here is
Yes, but the trouble here is "where possible". What about those kids who aren't lucky enough to have wealthy parents? Maybe subsidies could be means-tested based on the parents' net worth?
I'll give you an example. My husband comes from what you'd call a "below-average wealth" family (interestingly enough his dad had to leave school at 16 to support his 6 siblings) whereas my parents are well-off. In the French system, all he had to pay for his 5 year-long engineering degree was a symbolic $5 per year, as well as having his accomodation/food expenses paid for. On the other hand I had to pay the full fee (hardly over $400 a year btw) which my parents happily paid for (not that I asked or expected them to). As a result, he and his two brothers are all engineers as my sister and I are. On the other hand if he had had to pay full NZ fees the three of them may well have opted to just find work after school. Pity if you want my opinion, seeing what they all contribute now (in terms of what they produce, and of the amount of tax they pay).
"New Zealanders treat
"New Zealanders treat tertiary education casually..."
Not in my experience. The vast majority of today's students recognise the dire consequences of failing to successfully complete their studies.
"...and many drop out."
Some do, but not as many as you may like to think (or like others to think), because they are still stuck with the student debt, no matter what. It isn't written-off simply because they didn't complete their degree.
You will find that the drop-out rate amongst the previous generation -- the one that didn't have to pay for its education -- was far higher than it is now, simply because there were no immediate financial consequences of dropping out.
The lack of availability of quality education, and the lack of encouragement of NZ's kids to gain a quality education, is going to do more harm to this nation than any-and-all other issues combined.
Ignorant and uneducated nations are always economically backward nations, unless they happen to have oil, and even then only those at the very top benefit from that resource.
"Ignorant and uneducated
"Ignorant and uneducated nations are always economically backward nations, unless they happen to have oil, and even then only those at the very top benefit from that resource."
Your entire post was excellent but that last bit took the cake. The big problem I see is that the ignorant and uneducated can not understand how backward and damaging they and their beliefs are.
"New Zealanders treat
"New Zealanders treat tertiary education casually and many drop out." – You may be right but then maybe it's the mentality that needs to change. In France (and I can't say that I am fond of this "elitist" mentality) being a doctor or an engineer brings a certain status and respect. On the other hand, having what's regarded as a lesser degree (almost anything that’s not to do with science!!), or "dropping out" would be regarded as rather embarrassing (for the person and their entire family), not to say shameful.
"The trouble with something free is that people don't value it." - I don't know about that. Maybe here but not everywhere. In France (sorry about the reference again but that's what I know best hence the comparisons), graduating from a "private school", in other words and generally speaking those that only rich kids attend because unlike others they aren't free, and in fact very expensive, is called "buying a degree" and is not exactly regarded fondly or with great respect. So you see, it's the opposite view. Just because it's free doesn't necessarily mean it's not valued and highly regarded by society in general.
Joyce needs gestapo tactics
Joyce needs gestapo tactics to get the debt repaid. Anyone who leaves NZ without keeping up with their loan repayment obligations is a thief and should be treated as such. Some ideas follow:
- stopped at the border when return on holidays. Eventually even the most competent of thieves is fced with having to come back for a family funeral/sick or dying relative. Stop them, detain them and if they can't pay on the spot all the sum owing then a nice little trip to jail for a few days to cool their heels. They are after all, thieves.
- use double tax agreements and tax information exchange agreements with other countries. Most of the slackers are up in the UK. It shouldn't be hard to trace them.
- in fact ask UK authotrities to assist in stopping OE slackers at the border and make them sign up there and then for repayments. Most have credit cards - automatic payment,
- foreign students ie. those not born in NZ should never receive loans fullstop. If they do, they should be bonded separately in such a way as they are a much higher flight risk.
Above all NEVER write the debt off. Eventually you will get 'em.
Add in there deduct their
Add in there deduct their kiwisaver accounts off the debt
With you as the Gestapo chief
With you as the Gestapo chief of operations? Shame NZ unis seem to be run like private businesses, ie to make a profit.
Item 9 - Chines Banking
Item 9 - Chines Banking Cultural Problems
As I see it, there is an urgent need for quality research of the Chinese housing bubble in particular and the general commercial culture.as well.
In this regard, I have found some of the comments on articles about China at the Zerohedge website particularly helpful, as they are by a number of people who have business interests there..
Clearly there are some massive structural and commercial cultural issues China needs to deal with going forward.
In relation to the size of its economy - China's housing bubble, vacant residential and commercial real estate and other malinvestments in business and infrastructure, appear to be of a magnitude not seen before.
It should be noted too that Hong Kongs current Median Multiple for its housing stock is 10: Seoul Korea 12 and Beijing a staggering 22.
Hugh Pavletich
www.PerformanceUrbanPlanning.org
#1 It's not just a case of
#1 It's not just a case of ever rising student loans...if they find a job here sooner or later (mostly later) it gets paid off. But a large minority (20%) actually goes away and NEVER comes back. The goverment might as well write it off as bad debts...but that would be political suicide so we continue the same subprime game that the bankers are playing.
Ever thought of selling those debts off to some debt collector and let them do the hunting ??
But kin, the debt is recorded
But kin, the debt is recorded by the government as an asset, just like a bank would.
What would happen if this aqsset was removed from the balance sheet?
Hunt away by the way. My understanding is that the records are so flawed, there is no actual idea of what is going on.
It's the IRD that looks after
It's the IRD that looks after the loans, so I'm pretty sure they have pretty good records. I'm living overseas at the moment and get my yearly statement of how much I am required to repay.
I am like johnny thou, don't want to burn my bridges so have given my address to IRD so that they can hunt me down if they really need to.
I know there are plenty of kiwis overseas with loans, but I would hope many of these are just people doing their OE for a couple of years as opposed to people fleeing their debts.
Hi Danielle, their records
Hi Danielle, their records may have improved in recent years. I got some feedback from the very top once in regards to the state of the records and it didnt sound good.
I can assure you there are plenty of Kiwis overseas fleeing their debt.
A dentist with $120k debt in NZ, where is the incentive to return? You can live a pretty good lifestyle anywhere in the world on the income you get.
Plus you still might be bitter about being told it is an "investment" by guys in power that will never pay anything for their educations/retirement etc.
I have what is referred to as
I have what is referred to as a "mortgage style" tertiary student loan from the UK 1995-1999. The interest rate is linked to inflation (CPI if I remeber correctly). My current interest rate is -0.4% - yep that is negative 0.4%. Which means is my loan principal is decreasing even though I have deferred payments.... Classic - bring on global deflation!!
I don't live in NZ for now as
I don't live in NZ for now as I found it impossible to get ahead on a NZ salary whilst repaying a sizable student loan.
Fortunately I am one of the ones who actually is paying their loan back. Should have it completely repaid in early 2011, and I will be able to move back to NZ in 2012 with enough money to buy a house outright in the city I want to live in.
It was inevitable though that plenty of people would not pay their loan back by skipping the country or whatever.
And, Johnny, you're doing
And, Johnny, you're doing exactly the right thing. Old fashioned idea, I know, keeping to a contract! But one day, those who have 'skipped' may want to come back. All sorts of reasons from Dad's funeral to the economy has changed ( so; Dad's funeral then!). And when your come back, you won't have that dreaded 'thing' waiting for you.
Or wait for 7 years and it
Or wait for 7 years and it gets written off, then you dont have to deal with it either.
Not repaying the loan is akin
Not repaying the loan is akin to burning my bridges with NZ as it were, and I never wanted to do that.
I'll be happy though when the thing is paid off. I graduated 10 years ago by the way.
They should have required
They should have required guarantors for student loans.
But what if you weren't born
But what if you weren't born with a silver spoon in your mouth? Who will be guarantor then?
Without a loan I wouldn't have made it to university, my Father drove a truck for gods sake.
yes,I wish more of you
yes,I wish more of you whiners would pay back the money you borrowed from my taxes,instead of taking on more debt to buy a box in papamoa or wherever.
"ex-students living overseas"
"ex-students living overseas" DO GET CHARGED INTEREST!
Re 4 . If the US banks are
Re 4 . If the US banks are doing this then the cliff they are going fall over very soon is very high. I read an article recently ( unfortunately I did not save a copy ) that said out of the 600+ banks in the US , only 5 made money last year. Those 5 were the big boys with all the Govt. aid.
So given the Stiglitz view of
So given the Stiglitz view of the US economy is it time to quit those US equities?
The analysis yesterday about the DOW ranging between 9000 and 11000 points over about 20 yrs ( ie not going anywhere much) suggests that around now it might be wise to quit.
Any thoughts?
What about the baby boomers
What about the baby boomers who are in full time employment and drawing the national super at the same time? Is it fair they receive a benefit while the Gen x and y have student loans. How about a bit of means testing?
Have you never heard of
Have you never heard of 'Divine Entitlement'?
Yes yes i know - the baby
Yes yes i know - the baby boomers have paid their taxes all their lives and therefore deserve the super on top of their salary. I encourage the youth to vote to counter the political pandering to the retired class. Isn't it strange there is no debate on this topic in the mainstream press?
I realise your final question
I realise your final question was rhetorical, but I'm going to answer it anyway!
"It's not surprising when all those in charge of the various media organisations are baby boomers."
Pay for it your self. If you
Pay for it your self. If you have to borrow then you have to pay it back. I did the hard yards when I was a student, studied my brains out and worked my brains out to pay for the studies. Part time job sweeping floors at a joinery factory, student job search & cleaning boats down at the marina for a charter company. Then did my final year part time at uni and worked part time in an office in Auckland's CBD (where I learnt more than studying by the way) No student loan and got the qualification. My mates got student loans, bummed around played computer games and had Keg parties, good times I remember but the government can't fund the good times it's not fair on the tax payer. So these loans need to be paid back. (My mates have paid these back by the way so I'm not a nark!)
See this is where you let the
See this is where you let the story fall apart:
Those with student loans have to work just as you described, because they have no other choice, having been saddled with debt and with ongoing expenses.
You on the other hand come from the generation which didn't have to pay for their tertiary education.
But this is the clincher:
"Then did my final year part time at uni and worked part time in an office in Auckland's CBD (where I learnt more than studying by the way)..."
What were you studying at uni, cheerleading?
No grad with any degree worth having (which is almost all of them) can honestly say they learned more in general from it than they did filing forms in an office somewhere.
Combine that with your tenuous grasp of grammar, spelling and punctuation, and it's pretty obvious you pulled the entire story from out of your undies.
Nice try, though. Oh wait, no, it wasn't.
Yes, he may as well have
Yes, he may as well have composed his post in text messaging language!
Diploma in business
Diploma in business studies, worked part time at a small recruitment agency where I looked after the accounting function, marketing and office management. Grew and learnt from a role with a very small business to start with which then greatly expanded where I spent six years before heading to London. I'm still in London where I work for one of the world’s leading investment and advisory firms where I earn close to six figures in £'s. Didn't want to brag but I don't like being told that I'm wrong when I'm writing totally about one situation, myself. Yes I did learn more in the office as I had to learn so many tasks on the spot. An example of this would be fixed asset registers. Figured it out in a few hours, spent a few months at AUT being taught it. You say the story falls apart? I did have to pay for my own education. That's what I wrote about. As for my grammar yes I know it's bad, but this is a blog not a presentation to the board.
I thanked God I could GET a
I thanked God I could GET a student loan because without one my parents couldn't have sent me to uni, even with me working summers and for most of my studies working part time jobs right through the semesters.
I think the current crop of NZ'ers are looking at it entirely in the wrong slant by comparing the fact they have to pay with older generations not having to. Personally, I think they should be thankful for the loans they can voluntarily take out to finance their studies unless they would rather not have the opportunity to attend at all.
sharper than a serpents
sharper than a serpents tooth,I bet a lot of mothers wish they had stayed on the pill.
Aged in late fifties, had
Aged in late fifties, had classes of fifty, one teacher with a cane for every class, only the really brainy went to UNI guess about four in my class, the rest of us left school aged fifteen and sixteen and learnt trades. Thinking back the schools had no cleaners , and kids with detention had to clean the classrooms and grounds after school......Interesting reading bloggers perception of how easy it was to get education....
Left school with School Cert
Left school with School Cert myself. I think tertiary education is for those who know exactly what they want to learn - in my case, I'd have been 40 before that happened.
The BB generation got the best of it, just a matter of them timing their births to coincide with maximum resource-extraction rates, and while the biosphere has some tolerance left.
Will never happen again.
They can't argue ignorance, either. Denial, at best. The Club of Rome did it's thing, here we had Overshoot (Will Catton) and Marilyn Waring and a host of others.
Heck, Malthus had it right, so you could say they had 200 years warning....
Problem is that whatever you have as even a temporary status quo, quickly becomes 'the norm'. You crave more/better from wherever you are.
Desperate need for ensuite makeover, comes to mind.
Pity not many BB's took the
Pity not many BB's took the opportunity to go to uni. Like it or not BB's needed the incentive to go to uni - not like today when we go to uni because we don't want to work.
What a load of crap.
What a load of crap. Seriously, your mindless trolling is becoming tiresome.
And you could equally have said "not like today when we go to uni because we don't have any work."
re 7 . A lot of us are away
re 7 . A lot of us are away ahead of Martenson (but he's absolutely on the right track)
We saw this coming a long way out - I've got preliminary sketches of our first passive solar house dating from '83. Bought my first PV panel in '80.
He's right - it's a fantastic way to live, as well as being the only socially - and intergenerationally - responsible one.
Blog, not essay. Register,
Blog, not essay. Register, remember.
Blog, not essay. Register,
Blog, not essay. Register, remember.
repetition. Disqualified.
repetition. Disqualified.
repitition, disqualified,
repitition, disqualified, burn, shamed
We have such a narrow-minded
We have such a narrow-minded approach to student loan debt - take Cactus Kate's "they're all thieves" mentality regarding those delinquent on their loan repayments. IMO they're more likely just young people trying to make their way in the world and/or enjoying their youth while they have it. Why do some factions of society hold youth in such contempt - it's a very disconcerting trend.
Put that angst as demonstarated by Steven Joyce aside, and you may find more creative solutions to reducing this debt. I'm sure there are lots of grandparents out there who have locked what they intend to be the future inheritance of their children/grandchildren into unproductive assets and trusts. Generally this is done to avoid tax and to preserve as much as possible for their beneficiaries. Why not give these individuals the incentive to pay off their grandchildren's (or any deserving persons) student loan whilst they (the benefactors) are still alive?
For example, provide a writeoff of say 30% of the debt for anyone making a full balance, lump sum payment to a student loan account and make any payments in excess of the minimum loan repayment tax deductable in the same manner as donations to charity are. In other words, give the people who have the money in the society good reason to repay these debts to society.
We need to start thinking along the lines that every NZer who obtains a higher education has done a service to society - not been a burden and a detriment.
"Why do some factions of
"Why do some factions of society hold youth in such contempt[?]" - Envy.
"We need to start thinking
"We need to start thinking along the lines that every NZer who obtains a higher education has done a service to society - not been a burden and a detriment. " - Couldn't agree more.
Two point: (1)Not all
Two point:
(1)Not all student loan holders are young. I know of people at 40 and 50 who, because of the need to retrain, have taken on the only avenue they have to achive a possible job in the future this way. How do you think it feels to have +$30k student loan debt at 55? At least at 25 there' s a goodly time left to pay it off!
(2) Provide any 'incentive' to reduce the loan amount and an arbitrage situation will be found. What's wrong with people of whatever age abiding by the commitments they willing took on?
Few nineteen year olds have
Few nineteen year olds have the life-experience to behave the way older people would like them to.
Most parents hesitate to let their 19-year-olds take the family car out on Friday night, yet they get all self-righteous and pompous when young people choose to flit off to Europe for a bit of fun rather than engage in the drudgery of working off the debt the older folks have forced them to bear.
Why not just cancel student loans altogether? That way there will be very few people able to attend university and the rest of the nation's youth can become productive members of society such as cleaners and builder's labourers, or just be responsible unemployed people.
Why shouldn't New Zealand forever remain the land of the alcohol-dependent car-worshipping rugby-mad cow shit-covered retards? We have an international image to maintain!
Anon, 1) true but walk into
Anon, 1) true but walk into any univeristy classroom - and the vast majority (probably 90%+) are <30y olds. 2) what's worng with people of whatever age abiding by the commitments they willingly took on? In many cases they simply can't make ends meet, as so many costs in today's society (rates rises, GST rises, interest rates rises etc.) are beyond the control of the individual. In the 'old days' one would simply change jobs if your current employer wouldn't provide the pay rise you needed to keep pace with rising costs. Such choice is simply not available to the recent graduates of today.
Most of those indulging in
Most of those indulging in student-bashing are the same people who didn't have to pay for their own tertiary education, and also the same people who have made life so expensive for their own children and grandchildren.
They sit in their big houses, smugly chortling about their cleverness in owning much of the nation's residential property and pricing younger generations out of that market, then hypocritically accuse the people of those younger generations of being spoiled and lazy.
Bad news BBers...when you are old and feeble the younger generations will lock you up in a rest home someplace and walk away whistling. That's what happens when you bite the hands that you expect to feed you when you're most vulnerable.
Bad news BBers...when you are
Bad news BBers...when you are old and feeble the younger generations will lock you up in a rest home someplace and walk away whistling. That's what happens when you bite the hands that you expect to feed you when you're most vulnerable.
Ha ha, I like it!
You pathetic whining little
You pathetic whining little s$%t...... "the hand you expect to feed you..".? don't flatter yourself there you mindless little abortion escapee...... I wouldn't let you feed my dog....
if you had an unhappy childhood then seek retribution or council... go off mom and pop...whatever..but save your blame game crap for the couch.... you freakin need it .
So, arrogant Baby Boom
So, arrogant Baby Boom person, when you are old and in adult nappies, who is it you think will be taking care of you? The magical fairy-pixie-godmothers who paid all the bills when you were young and again in middle-age?
The youth of today you and your troughing cronies are gleefully fleecing will be the ones working to pay the taxes you feel entitled to now and in the future.
Here's a tip: If your resthome gruel tastes like someones else's saliva, it's probably not your imagine.
i would find more dignity in
i would find more dignity in dispatching myself than wasting life's breath needing help from scum such as yourself.
No, you help only yourself.
No, you help only yourself. We're all well aware of that.
But dignity? You don't know the meaning of the word.
So doesn't that tell us all
So doesn't that tell us all something about supply and demand? The job market is no different from any other product class. If there's a shortage, the price will rise; the vacuum of candidate shortage will be filled. Now, sure, there's a lag effect with education. But the mass of new graduates on the worldwide market tells me that their skills are not needed, here and now. Now re the cost of living. IT's always been hard to get by in the early years. I remeber on of my friends 30 years ago, having nothing to eat for 3 weeks but potatoes; and that living with three others.
Stdudent Loans from an aged perspective must be a Godsend for those who now have the choices that we did not have to 'go further'. Wheter we should or not is another question. But at least 'you' have the option.
How can you say someone's
How can you say someone's education is "not needed"?! How can *any* education be considered unnecessary?! That's ridiculous.
In your world view, if this year we need more accountants, nobody should study anything other than accounting. But next year we have a glut of accountants and nobody available to fill the vacant roles in other fields and disciplines.
This is the typical (terminally flawed) western way of thinking: "do not bother looking beyond the end of this financial quarter".
" IT's always been hard to
" IT's always been hard to get by in the early years."
Rubbish - not if "the early years" refers to the 1960s-1980s - if you had a good education or a trade qualification behind you - then these were good, easy times. Even if you didn't have the education or trade, you likely had a strong labour union behind you. Housing was cheap, food was cheap, seafood was there in abundance for the recreational fishers, a beer in the local pub with your friends was so affordable the whole community turned up routinely after 5pm on Friday's and there was competition in the labour market with wages resultingly being on the increase.
And you'd remember then Kate:
And you'd remember then Kate: The age related pay scale; the women-get-paid-less-than-me pay scales; the meanial work that had to be done by an army of young, lowly paid workers, as computerisation etc. hadn't clicked in yet. I worked in the period you talk about, and I can tell you, it wasn't cloured with the rose glasses of hindsight that you have on.
I had to laugh - yes, I
I had to laugh - yes, I remember all those things, and experienced most of them too! My first job post-uni was in the Department of Health Statistics. An office of around 10 of us (all female and all nurses) who were reading post mortum exams and death certficates to record the primary and secondary causes of death, so some other group of ladies could fill out the "punch" cards or whatever they were called that eventually got fed into the mainframe computer.
When I started we were reading the documents for deaths in the year 1973 (if I recall correctly) - for the "H"'s in terms of surname alphabetic order. When we got to the "M" surnames - the bosses changed their minds about the structure of the form we had to fill in - so we started back reading the documents at the letter "A". By the time we'd read and got to nearly the end of the alphabet for that year - the bosses changed their minds again and we were going to have to go back to "A" (again).
I found another job within a week or so. :-)
But, the office/work environment was lovely - we chatted away about typically women's things throughout the day - nothing seemed at all urgent - no pressure to speak of - the tea lady came around with the tea and biscuits cart twice a day - we all took our break together and discussed family, exchanged recipes, talked about the many beachfront campgrounds you could stay at for $3.00 a night, the latest clothing stores to have opened up, and what we were planning for the weekend. It truely was "Gliding On".
"Stdudent Loans from an aged
"Stdudent Loans from an aged perspective must be a Godsend for those who now have the choices that we did not have to 'go further'. Wheter we should or not is another question. But at least 'you' have the option."
Explain please.
The baby boom generation did not have to pay for their tertiary education. It seems to me that gave them far more freedom and options than the youngies of today who are forced to lumber themselves with massive debt in order to get ahead. Some do not "have the option" you did, because they cannot afford to go to university. Or own a home.
Look at it another way. Let's
Look at it another way. Let's take away Student Loans, altogether? Where is the individual option now, unless a family is prepared to pay for it. And what the previous generation had to/didn't have to pay for is history. Would you prefer to have 'the option' of paying for an education that will assist with your future, or not? It's all up to you.
Maybe the solution is to stop
Maybe the solution is to stop punishing people by hitting them with a huge bill for getting an education then? Personally I'd much rather my tax dollars subsidized (worthy) students than people who've chosen to be unemployment beneficiaries as their career path.
Part of the problem seems to come from the fact that a good chunk of people feel that students only study to pass the time/have fun. So maybe as I said above, tertiary education should be fully subsidized subject to marks and possibly limited to those courses that we know will lead to productive careers and not to the dole. Then maybe only those who have the ability to graduate and are likely to become assets for NZ would bother.
Yes, Elley! And as for those
Yes, Elley! And as for those who continuously spout ' but you got your education, free", I say " No we didn't!" We had to acheieve acedemic standards that (1) allowed us entry into faculty siz- restricted courses ( eg: we neeed 500 teachers this year. No more) and (2) be able to afford it ( ie: our parents paid) if we didn't get granted a bursary of some sort. If that is seen as "free' eductaion, then I can only say that in those times the skills that were deemed important to the country were encouraged, financially, for the betterement of societey as a whole. Those that were frivolous, to choose a word, were not supported by the state.
Sounds about right to me.
Sounds about right to me. That’s the way it works for many tertiary qualifications in France. Re-teaching, you’ve got an entry exam each year where the number of admitted students is based on the projected number of required teachers at the time they qualify 3-4 years later. You may be good, but if you’re not good enough to make it you don’t get in.
In my last year at school, out of 40 pupils in my class only another guy and I got admitted into “prep schools” (that lead to a career in engineering). Seeing there were 20 classes of 40 pupils in our last year at that school (it was a big school!) and that only 4 of those classes were made up of pupils that may possibly have the chance to be admitted into that career path (specialty in maths/physics), an average of only 2 admitted per class equates to 8 in 800, in other words 1%. No wonder only 1% of my fellow engineering students dropped out or were kicked out due to insufficient results. When you make it in, you don’t feel like messing up! I suppose it also explains 1) the reason why although the degree is pretty much free it is still highly valued 2) the reason why people over there don’t feel like their tax dollars are being wasted on students. 3) the respect that being an engineer (or doctor or similar) gives you in France.
"I suppose it also
"I suppose it also explains...the reason why although the degree is pretty much free it is still highly valued [and] the reason why people over there don’t feel like their tax dollars are being wasted on students."
It's because most of Europe is highly mature intellectually, societally and culturally. New Zealand, alas, is the complete opposite.
No degree was "free".
No degree was "free". Somebody paid for the salaries, buildings, materials. They weren't beamed down from space. Free to the student, yes, not free to the taxpayer
But isn't it worth it if the
But isn't it worth it if the students are then going to pay it back many times, through their productivity and tax dollars (much more of those than people on min wage + subsidies pay btw)?
Of course that's not likely to happen at this point in time when your smartest people feel so overwhelmed by the debt they are in that they are prepared to go as far as to go into permanent exile from their own country, families and friends. As I said above, what a sad, sorry situation. Yep, something is very wrong with the student loan issue but I just don't think adding interest to the debt is gonna help an iota.
There's hope though. After all, there aren't problems, only solutions.
It is a terrible ignorance to
It is a terrible ignorance to confuse education with training. The worth of an eduction is not the ability to perform a job, it is the understanding and empowerment knowledge brings. Knowledge that no single person could discover on their own. If you are uneducated and wise you would be wiser still with education.
How well a generation educates their children is a better measure of a society's progress than economic growth.
Absolutely, JW. And given
Absolutely, JW. And given that, you'd expect that those who are complaining about 'student loans' to have the wisdom that comes from your post. But it seems to be sadly lacking, and confused with " but look how much it costs me, that it didn't cost you. It's not fair"
In many ways, it is the BBer
In many ways, it is the BBer generation that has shaped the notion that all (their) children needed a university education. After all - these were the managers who began "requiring" a tertiary degree for just about every job going in the 'blue collar' sector. To the degree that we now find that there is an NZQA approved course for traffic signal operators.
Education has become a commodity - as opposed to an education in the knowledge/wisdom for the sake of knowledge/wisdom sense.
Quite agree Kate, the phrase
Quite agree Kate, the phrase educated fools comes to mind.
Heard that you have little chance of getting a job at DOC without a degree of some sort.
I would have thought that a love for and understanding of the natural world would be all you need. The academics in charge think you can find that in a book.
Heard that you have little
Heard that you have little chance of getting a job at Toyota without a degree of some sort.
I would have thought that a love for and understanding of the vehicle world would be all you need. The engineers in charge think you can find that in a book.
How's your knowledge of plant
How's your knowledge of plant biology? Climatology? Geology? Glaciology? Pest control? Land management? Anything?
This is why we shouldn't and don't let untrained, unqualified experts-on-everything loose in any kind of sensitive area, and it's why every business and organisation wants and expects its people to actually to be able to demonstrate that they know what the hell they are doing, and not just believing they do because they happen to "love" it.
Not at all Christopher, you
Not at all Christopher, you need some folk at DOC (or Toyota) that have in depth or specialist knowledge of a particular aspect of the field but the guys setting pest traps or collecting samples (or assembling cars) don't need a degree or whatever. Good general knowledge should be enough. Or am I out of touch with what DOC field work involves?
DOC is a classic example -
DOC is a classic example - and you wouldn't believe the number of Master's degreed folks working there on less wages than a qualified chippie would get.
It makes more sense that
It makes more sense that having to go to Polytech to get nanny qualifications.
Or even having to a do a pre-apprentice course at the polytech, before starting an apprenticeship.
Notice how not many places are called a "Polytech" anymore. They're now "institues of technology" or Unicol, Unitec etc. We've made tertiary education a commodity and we've also almost made it compulsory.
The laws of unintend consequences.
Not everybody is satisfied
Not everybody is satisfied with earning enough to buy beer and cars, and not everybody believes the height of knowledge and culture can be gained by watching Reality TV shows.
Some people --- many, many people --- wish for far more out of life.
You only live once and for a short time, so why not make the most of it. Learn a bit about what the universe is and how it got here, or about ancient history and cultures, or contemporary history and culture, for instance.
Or you can spend it down at the pub, blurrily half-watching the footy on their plasma screen, while slurring about "thus bluddy guvmint's gotta do somethin' about it!"... or you could devote that life to clanking about underneath old cars while lying on cold, oil-stained concrete driveways. Maybe a bit of both.
Choice is a wonderful thing.
Both my children took
Both my children took student loan burden.... both believed all sorts of crap rumors about the debts being wiped etc..etc.. all the while the interest was mounting... there was little option left for me but to assume the debts and pay them.... while I found this an irritation (because they had allowed the debt to blow out) I have no regrets in having paid for their education in their chosen professions .
You see we BB's did learn something from the previous generation and that is not being comfortable with debt and to have reserves for life's curveballs .
I don't pretend to speak for all BB's but all most parents want is for their children to be safe/secure/ and able to pick themselves up in times of adversity.......
Some of the generational rhetoric here is thoughtless driveling shite doled out by snot nosed know it all's that wouldn't know their ass from their elbow.... and if they are to carry the attitude they have presently into the future ..then seek sterilization for the good of the community.
But if you wanted your
But if you wanted your children to learn how to pick themselves up in times of adversity - why pay off their student debt for them?
I suspect because, as you say, the interest on that debt was digging them into an adverse hole they just didn't look likely to overcome. I was never much a fan of Helen's but 0% interest on student loans was a good policy - particularly at a time when wage growth had slowed to the degree it had - and house prices had risen to an even greater degree!
She understood - (I suspect like you, christov) that the kids deserved a break.
Kate... yes it was the
Kate... yes it was the mounting interest at the time.... it was also that they foolishly believed the rumours that the debt would be wiped.... I agree I took it upon myself not to gamble their way... and paid them off... I'm glad I did.
there will always be adversity and I will always help when I can....... and little by little they seem to confront life's difficulties with confidence and resolve.
"Why shouldn't New Zealand
"Why shouldn't New Zealand forever remain the land of the alcohol-dependent car-worshipping rugby-mad cow shit-covered retards? We have an international image to maintain!"
The worst thing about your comment is that it cannot be refuted. :(
You see we BB's did learn
You see we BB's did learn something from the previous generation and that is not being comfortable with debt and to have reserves for life's curveballs .
Sorry mate but that's so wrong it's funny! Baby-boomers love debt! They are the ones always telling everybody that "you have to have debt to succeed" and rubbish. If they hate debt so much why are they so happy to pile it on themselves to buy more investment property? 'Baby-boomers are uncomfortable with debt'!!! What a load of cobblers!
Then just maybe your formula
Then just maybe your formula for BB is flawed....eh jathink..?
if you bothered to read it
if you bothered to read it Alan I expressed only a personal point of view and values and did not seek to defend the whole BB generation. so read the post with that bloody degree you've got and maybe you won't be leaping to refute for the sake of it .
The amount of almost hatred
The amount of almost hatred that seems to be present between the younger generation and their BB parents is sad to witness. Comparing who had it easiest or hardest is unlikely to make things better. Maybe acknowledging that the situation is what it is and focusing on solutions to the student loan issue would be more beneficial than shifting the blame and causing the inter-generational resentment to build up to such an extent. My BBs parents and many of their friends are incredibly awesome people (who I am well aware that, as successful as they became, didn't have life anywhere near as sweet as I did when they were kids).
Elley .. I do not dispute
Elley .. I do not dispute that this world is tougher in every way for the now and coming generations.... I do not dispute there are tax burden issues upon them that need to be addressed.... but I believe the best thing I can do is to help them when and as I can..
I agree with much of what you
I agree with much of what you say. It is true that the BB generation may well have had an easier time over the cost of funding their higher education, but that is hardly their fault they simply applied the system that they found themselves with.
Today we have stundent loans (something I disagree with) and that is the system that students of today find themselves with.
Tomorrow could see that a student loan holder might not be able obtain a passport (or only a short term one for holidays only) and hence migrate from NZ until the loan was rerpaid, thus keeping talent in NZ and getting repayment. As wrong as that might be it would be the system they would have to opperate within.
Everything needs to be looked at its specific point in time being bitter about what happened in the past leads nowhere but to a self perpetuation of discontent. Do not curse the problem and point fingers but rather suggest an alternative.
And as for intergeneration wealth, if the anti BB attitude is maintained then I remind you of the old saying "you cannot take it with you, but can have a good time trying",
Somebody please explain to me
Somebody please explain to me why they believe it is sensible and beneficial to make obtaining a decent education even more expensive and difficult?
How does deterring education help this country?
Whatever the rules of the
Whatever the rules of the game are at the time, you choose to play, or not. "Expensive' and 'difficult' are relative terms.
Some nice mindless
Some nice mindless sloganeering there, but now I repeat: "How does deterring people from obtaining a decent education help this country"?
"Everything needs to be
"Everything needs to be looked at its specific point in time being bitter about what happened in the past leads nowhere but to a self perpetuation of discontent. Do not curse the problem and point fingers but rather suggest an alternative." - Yes, I completely agree with that. Division isn't known to lead to great victories, is it?! So we might as well pull together and try and find a better way, since the present way clearly doesn't make anyone happy.
As I said above, my view is that maybe tertiary education should be fully subsidized subject to marks with subsidies possibly limited to those courses that we know will lead to productive careers and not to the dole. While I don't think studies can both be free and accessible to an unlimited number of people, I believe that the "criteria" shouldn't be one's wealth or willingness to get into debt, but one's ability to graduate, the number of available positions in a particular domain and the expected return on investment for the taxpayers/country (in other words, reward hard work and good results in careers that are needed and have the potential to contribute to NZ's economic growth). That said, I don't really expect NZ to go as far as turning students down due to their lack of ability. Man, just having to report on pupils performance at school from now on is causing a huge outcry, and think about the loss of income if Uni didn’t take on anyone who asks!
Much agreed. Up to "I don't
Much agreed. Up to "I don't really expect NZ to go as far as turning students down due to their lack of ability.". Well that's what we need? And as far as the financial support of Universtiy income; Well, we're really a small country. How about a smaller number of tertiary units? Specialising more. And as you say, in the skills we need. No different to our medicine needs. We just can't afford all the drugs avaialable, to help eveyone. So we have to prioritise. Hard facts of life!
Exactly my point actually.
Exactly my point actually. When you say "so we have to prioritise", don't you mean just the same thing as "turning students down due to their lack of ability"? What I was trying to say is that "prioritisation" (of free courses) should be not only through specialising more in the skills that we need but through some sort of a selection process to avoid the issue that we apparently have of a good number of students enrolling at uni just to pass the time/have fun. Then unis can focus and use their limited resources on training only those who are truly motivated and talented.
In other words I think that admission exams, in other words turning some people down, and exams all the way through one's degree (that if you fail them means you'd be kicked out), would be a rather good move. Tough maybe but that's the way it works in other places and it seems to work, as far as not wasting taxpayers' money on education is concerned anyway.
As a BB myself I can
As a BB myself I can understand the hostility. The BB's who had an ability to borrow unlike the younger generations gorged themselves on property and debt and shut out a lot of the younger ones who could not compete at auctions or whatever. Luckily with the market devaluing as it is the younger generations now have a hope of buying their first homes without a guarantee or borrowing to the hilt just to get an average first home. This has to be good for the country in general and maybe this hostility as you call it will go away.
So I am 32 and had a student
So I am 32 and had a student loan when I finished up about ten years ago, while I studied the loan was interest free. I think most of my generation who are complaining about having to pay their student loans back are a bunch of moaners.
I went to university with them, they bought stereos with their loans, went to the pub, bought nice clothes, lived in nicer flats, everything they couldn't afford and are now complaining.
I only ever had to borrow my fees every year, about 2.5-3k. I worked throughout my study about 20 hours per week to cover the majority of my rent and bills. I received no student allowances, was not staying at home or even in the same city as my family and do not have wealthy parents. In the holidays I got as much fulltime as i could, painting, cleaning, warehouse work, promo work, anything that was going and would pay most of my student loan back. Except for one year that I went backpacking through the US over summer for two months, paid out of savings. In the end I finished up with 4K student loan after four years study. I paid in back in the first year and saved a deposit for a house in the same year.
It wasn't a luxurious life but it was pretty ok for a student. If you racked up thirty or fifty K debt well guess what you have no one to blame but yourself. Student loans shouldn't be interest free, the country has to borrow money to lend the money so the country is paying. It ain't free money, grow up and pay it back!
With regard to overseas ex students, I suggest selling the loans, the world isn;t that big anymore, let someone else track them down.
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Good on you for getting more
Good on you for getting more debt ??
I'm surprised a big lending company uses a gmail & hotmail account ??