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Gareth Morgan calls on farmers to accept the Horizons win in the Environment Court and dump Federated Farmers. Your view?

The Horizons Regional Council’s victory at the Environment Court which found that farmers deserve no special treatment and should follow the rules like anyone else when it comes to curbing their pollution, is of major importance. It’s late but better than never.
The vast majority of farmers are environmentally responsible and many are passionate about not despoiling waterways in any way.
This is a victory for them and round condemnation of the ignorant rump in that fraternity who arrogantly think they have some sort of birthright to generate wealth for themselves off the back of environmental destruction.
The requirement to restrict excessive runoff of nutrients like nitrogen and phosphorous is no different to requiring a manufacturer to limit the polluting consequences of any process. Nature has an amazing ability to absorb what we throw at her but it certainly isn’t infinite.
Further, the natural injustice that arises when one person’s economic advantage is secured at the expense of damaging the property of others, is one too often government’s turn a blind eye to.
All of which makes the indignant reaction of Federated Farmers to the Environment Court decision disappointing, reminiscent of the dark days when the outfit was led by ACT myopic, Don Nicholson. I thought this lobby group had grown up a bit under Bruce Wills. It needs to.
The dairy industry in New Zealand long ago eschewed vertical integration into marketing and consumer products. It has left that, the most profitable end of the value chain, to the Nestle’s and Krafts of this world and kept to a strategy of raising raw milk production decade after decade and converting that to a transportable form of powdered manufactured ingredients. An interesting business strategy for sure, that’s entrenched primarily because of the legacy of regulatory protection of farmer cooperatives.
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That introverted view saw all industry profits flowing back behind the farm gate, irrespective of where in the supply chain they were made.
Under this regime it’s logical for the industry owners to simply boost the volume of raw milk on-farm. It’s the only path they’ve had to greater profits.
Unsurprisingly the consequence of that lethargic business model is that the population of dairy cows has exploded from 2 million to 4.5 million over 30 years.
Progressive farmers should form their own lobby group, there’s few benefits being tarred with the brush of environmental retards. Leave that to Federated Farmers and their ignorant rump.
But as we know cows are major pollutants so the clash between their numbers and the environment, particularly waterways, was bound to happen.
It’s surprising that the environmental authorities have been so slow to define the ecological boundaries. Thankfully we have a huge number of farmers who are conscious of the damage their industry causes anyway and have designed their farm practices accordingly. The efforts of that majority needs to be recognised more widely.
But there are always the laggards, those who simply don’t care about the consequences of their actions and clearly the forthcoming tightening of limits on their activities will generate indignant squeals from them.
What isn’t acceptable however is that a national farming lobby group becomes chief apologist for such a retarded attitude. It undermines the good work and good name of so many farmers who are doing great environmental mitigation work.
Progressive farmers should form their own lobby group, there’s few benefits being tarred with the brush of environmental retards. Leave that to Federated Farmers and their ignorant rump.
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Gareth Morgan is a businessman, economist, investment manager, motor cycle adventurer, public commentator and philanthropist. This opinion piece was first published on his new blog garethsworld.com and is reprinted here with permission.








92 Comments
Gareth -- you say at the end
Gareth -- you say at the end of a preamble on Dairy Products
"Unsurprisingly the consequence of that lethargic business model is that the population of dairy cows has exploded from 2 million to 4.5 million over 30 years. "
The prime reason that this has happened is that Farmers --with Dry Stock --- Sheep and Cattle --- have had at least 20 years of making low or no Profits what so ever--- there is a limit to how long you can live on fresh air ---- and the only gain was when at the end of their working lives, they sell the farm and get a Capital Gain, to enable them to buy a new home and have a bit of extra to supplement their retirement.
The Dairy Industry produces regular Monthly Pay cheques to the farmer ---Lambs, Sheep, Wool and Beef do not.
When you have run a farm we might listen !!!!
ps Have you ever thought about the logistics of sending fresh Milk to China/Asia. Have you ever thought about the Logistics of sending UHT Packs of Milk to China. There is a new UHT Plant built/funded by an Asian woman, in Tauranga. Its capable of using/Processing/packing maybe 30,000 litres/day or 90,000 x 330ml UHT packs. How much milk does Tatua Dairy take in daily ( among the smallest Export Plants in NZ) 2 million litres a Day. Fonterra Edendale Intake 14 millionlitres per day.
Gareth, I accept your
Gareth, I accept your arguement that farmers must do what is neccessary to mitigate negative impact on the environment, and I think our right wing orientated industry leadership is misguided. But I strongly disagree with your assertion that the cooperative model is too blame for the ills created by farmers (specifically dairy farmers in your case). You come across quite righteous in your high profile stance on matters of importance, but then you show your true colours, in this case a call to undermine any self determination created by far sighted agricultural forebearers in creating cooperatives so farmers could capture some value from their product, and let the financial industry (that's you Gareth and people like you that have covered themselves in glory in recent years) increase value and solve problems. Maybe you could point to some examples around the world.
What is stopping the cooperative model from adding value. And by the way the day Fonterra was formed was the day it was mandated to demutualise, and it's been downhill since. Do you think once it's fully demutualised, investor governance replaces cooperative (already happened), that all that you bemoan will come right?
"What is stopping the
"What is stopping the cooperative model from adding value."
No positive incentives to do so - and plenty of negative incentives to find an easier cheaper way. (ie its hard to fight bureaucracy and debt and government and the weight of status quo to make good difference. Far easier to just tick the boxes for your job requirements, push for popular ideas, and take your paycheck)
Got to remember all these "Terrible environmental practices" were best progressive techniques 40 years ago. Before that it was buckets and brooms, and dairy sheds and effluent ponds and silage pits made next to streams and rivers so they could get rid of the waste. 60 years ago it was commonplace to dump animals in waterways or disused waterways.
There just hasn't been the margin at the farm end to allow the new farmers to keep upgrading within their businesses. It's make ends meet, pay the mortgage, retire. For families that gift the farm (or operate in trusts) then the next generation has an opportunity to use that revenue to develop capital and systems. For most folks the farm is sold, or sold to the next generation to allow the elders to retire after years of incredibly hard slog; and that means new generation of debt again and 30 years of paying back the mortgage at maximum speed (to reduce risk due to interest bumps and payout drops).
But here's my take: My Challenge to all those who think farmers are doing a bad job. Including Gareth.
Do what I did, take a 120% loan, go buy a herd and put your ass where your mouth is. Easy to criticise from the sidelines, much different getting into the muck and find out whats really going on and what can be done about it (sod all - the votes with the big farms and the professionals at places like Fonterra and fert companies).
mist - why would anyone take
mist - why would anyone take your advice and "take a 120% loan, go buy a herd" - stupid in the extreme and selfish as well because now you have to "exploit" someone or something to manage to pay back the loan. It sounds like you want to exploit the environment because you are already up to your ears in debt. You (and the environment) would have been better off had you invested in growing vegetables if what motivates you to farm is the work in the outdoors.
Why would they do
Why would they do it?
Because they're experts, they know all the answers, they can fix everything and don't need any money to do it. Let's seem them do it.
I'm up to ears in debt, because my last dairying boss that I was sharemilking for missed his target by 20% production, leaving me out of pocket by 10k, and that's a lot of debt to be going back on a sickness benefit with. So I knuckled down and took on the challenge, I put my earnings from farming (negative eight thousand dollars) and my accumulated equity together and brought a herd to give me cashflow.
I had hoped to make some improvements from what I know from outside the industry to get ahead.
But. My old boss was going to leave 80 cows with me until people started drying off (and thus selling surplus winter milk cows)...but he got a good offer from the works, and sent them off 3 weeks before my sharemilk contract finished (let alone my milking one). Then the guy who promised me use of his tractor for the first winter decided that, well, it might break and he didn't want to risk that, and so I had to find a tractor straight up day one, on credit. One reliable enough to get through the winter. But I thought...no probs, IRD owe me about 30k in GST return for the startup costs - but they didn't payout. IRD hold on to large amounts for checking to make sure it's not a scam (which a lot of carbon credits guys were pulling at that time - invoicing the purchase of a farm, collecting the GST on the invoice, failing the purchase, closing the company because of the purchase failure. paying themselves wages for time worked out of the GST cash. folding the illiquid company). And I've asked around - it's not uncommon type of problem.
But that's the thing. It *IS* possible to startup a dairy farm business from 0 or less cash.
So those armchair "experts" can do it.
And they can do it, and use their financial expertise to calculate their way through it.
And they can show me how to achieve all these things they want.
Because it's all fine for those who have had years to establish their business (and as you say, you've been exploiting/profiting the environment the whole time) or who have large gifts from outside (eg Landcorp).
And this land is not right for growing vegetables.
I'm motivated by (a) making a reasonable profit as a normal business operation, and seeing that is sustainable throughout the industry (as opposed to "steel disease"). and (b) setting up sustainable, intensified systems, that can be staffed and operated in a modern way - without having to give every government crony and consultant their "graft" to do it.
After all.... I've been at this 4 yrs now (with a couple sharemilking beforehand). And the farm has been seriously broke the whole time........
So What's stopped you folks doing this environmental improvements off your own back before now??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? (and you say the environment was better off with you..... I was _already_ fencing off streams (for inline dosing), I have had zero inductions policy since I started sharemilking, and I already use under 2 ton N for 60 hectare!!!!! I already use heat recovery on my hotwater and this shed has had solar hotwater for 20 years. let me know when you "environmental friends" catch up.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
And my challenge still stands. They think they can do better, buy the cows and put their ass on the dirt and do those hours in the shed (how many hours you spend cupping and washing up and driving tractors this year Kate?) and then they can make the calls.
I've paid my dues. Let's seem them sing the same songs when they've paid theirs.
mist, that tirade only goes
mist, that tirade only goes to prove my point - there is no profit in animal protein. If a person with your experience can't make ends meet - why would I (or anyone for that matter) make the same mistake as someone like yourself with experience! Why do you seem to think working outside, driving tractors and raising animal protein is somehow so noble that everyone ought to try and do it? I'll stick to growing my own vegetables, thanks. And I might consider nuts as a replacement tree crop when we harvest our radiata. A much better legacy for a future generation - a great source of healthy protein and carbon sequesterers in the meantime.
The only reason these industry "experts" are trying to tell you this aim is possible:
"(b) setting up sustainable, intensified systems,"
Is to keep the present ponzi scheme going - it needs someone like you 'believing' that someday you can get there with your "intensified" animal stocking plan. The ponzi needs people like you to keep borrowing more and getting yourself into a greater debt pickle to do it.
Stop feeding them your future.
Kate, I don't think it's
Kate, I don't think it's noble, I think it's gnosis. And have stated so.
I don't think you should do it. But then - are you on the council or environmental court, or one of those people telling farmers that they must pay to clean things up (without passing on the cost <- important bit!!)
Good luck with the nuts, you do know that radiata pines have a resin on their needles which is a herbicide, and often leaves the ground barren for many plants. Wouldn't have thought Palmy was reliably warm enough for nut maturation. (haven't checked)
The intensification is more about control of nutrients and damage to pastoral substructures. DoC found it when they got the ruminants out of some of the Maori tapu lands (finally). The weight and shape of the ruminant hoof tends to damage what is effectively the phylum of the ground. By going to European style operation, where they consider that the land is too valuable to go letting animals stomp all over it, it gets the nutrients concentrated into one place, which gives saving efficiency due to density and reduces the issues of uncontrolled surface effluent from grazing animals (ie massive localised nutrients, uncontrolled, and prone to migration). However we have to overcome the NZers' and markets fear of housing animals - it also involves considerable capital investment, which is hard in NZ where the returns are poor (my old boss used to get higher dollar numbers from his Aussi farms, and the currency rate meant he made over 30% more form the same product in Aussi as he did compared with NZ, and the Aussi system was far more farm and staff friendly).
Actually I know I can achieve the targets through intensification. Yes, I'm that good with my finance and logisitcs (that's my niche skill) and it would be wrong to say otherwise. But why should I bother? It's possible but a lot of hard work; and others would be make a damn good profit off me the whole way through. As yet they have given me no reason whatsoever for why I should carry them, and many reasons to say: "If you know so much, you do it." Which is what I'm saying. To those who want all these things.
In the meantime I'm still clicking up my forex, and deleveraging everything else I hold in NZ.
We put cows inside Mist, and
We put cows inside Mist, and we cut and carry or buy and carry. Are we really going to be paid enough to do that when the oil gets even more expensive to pull out of the ground.
In the meantime we could be reorganising our respective industries to cope with a change in our how we power our world.
Dairy is so totally reliant on fossil fuels. Daily pick up... fertiliser...motorbikes and tractors and cropping. Very fuel intensive.
How are your fuel bills now? Mine are manageable. I guess product prices will rise, as fuel rises. But will NZ get its share of oil, or will the big boys snatch it all? Its not far away. In the meantime we become intent on becoming more fuel intensive.... craziness.
Fonterra are looking into
Fonterra are looking into alternate fuels (one of their better plans, although poor auction prices may see that technology going overseas).
I don't have an inside (for cows) yet. Don't have that kind of income to cover the building yet. probably won't bother given the lousy returns.
The fertiliser comes off farm, and is organic. I think some of it is even imported but it's the only type I can get of it's kind locally. We don't do cropping because this area is not good for it. And since the system is not cut and carry the fuel bills are not significant.
An electric motorbike is about $15k which is about twice my annual fuel bill including runs to town by car for parts and groceries.
I've considered the tractor but there is no viable alternative even for the small 4wheel drive Iseki65 which I use, and honestly replacement motor and frame energy production requirements far outweigh the lifetimes usage for energy on fuel (under 1500litres p.a.). So probably more effective to adjust it to run oils or methanol if push comes to shove.
And yes product prices will rise as distributors and retailers pass on their costs to consumers, and our margins will shrink further as our fuels bills go up and councils, support companies recover their costs from us and fonterra and other processors reduce their payouts to reflect higher expenses.
And the public will whine about rising food and demand that food is a human right and the information economy people will find way to increase their cut, while reducing costs to the consumers so they can compete on price and look good to the government.
But why should that be any different to 20 years ago, or 40 or 100?
I don't think you should do
I don't think you should do it. But then - are you on the council or environmental court, or one of those people telling farmers that they must pay to clean things up (without passing on the cost <- important bit!!)
The point is we can farm our land sustainably - meaning we can feed our own population with all it needs from our land whilst maintaining a high level of biodiversity and not spending all the natural capital to the detriment of future generations. Where farming gets uneconomic is when we look on on agriculture as a key export earner. And if because we do place such a ridiculous enphasis on ag as an export earner - we have inflated land prices beyond what is reasonable, so we have had to look to expand our herds at the expense of what is environmentally sustainable - so we expend further borrowed capital to clean up the cost of too many animals, and so the price of land goes higher ... and so on and so forth.
Folks talk about our current account deficit as if we overspent on imported goods (a lifestyle better than what we 'earned') - but that isn't the case at all. Largely we overspent it on land - not imported goods. Stupid, eh?
"The point is we can farm our
"The point is we can farm our land sustainably - meaning we can feed our own population with all it needs from our land whilst maintaining a high level of biodiversity"
And all we need to do to make it happen is lift the farmgate price of a kgMilkSolids to $15 each (and keep it ahead of inflation, for obvious reasons) up from $5.50.
And meat about the same size jump. And buy back our grain and vege fields. I wonder what that would cost!
Now, we're paying $1.50 per litre milk on shelf? for 0.55c per litre. So to do as you say all we need is to charge a shelf price of $4.50 per litre minimum, all other things remaining the same.
Or perhaps you think it's ok for "sustainable" farmers to get average business yields of 0.3% pa instead of the 3-4% pa (before interest, tax, dividend) they have now?
You do understand agriculture as a sole /*backbone* exporter is NOT been a deliberate effort, right?
It's that agriculture with it's very long term business lifecycle and small overheads (by NZ farmers reusing and getting paid/paying crap wages) that it's the 'last one standing'. All those high fliers with a few notable exceptions (successful software startups, a handful of niche manufacturers) have failed. Textiles, General manufacturing, Retailing, Banking.... all falling away.
Also you seem to not realise, that cleaning up many concentrated animals is more effective and cheaper than trying to clean up our existing system. The density and low volume per investment meter results in rediculously low returns.
And stupid is not realising we still have the land (and it's improved value).
Whereas all those imported consumables...have been consumed unlike the debt and lost income opportunities they represent.
However - if you think you can get the animals and land, at whatever cost... then show me your success. I will believe you then. You don't have to borrow to do it... but you've got to make it happen, and overcome all those hidden horrors in the process. No point planting a forest then claiming animal farming should be less dense - your feet on the road prove that you don't think it's possible - just as the other experts talk lots but don't have the proof either. I know the full score, cause I'm in there doing it. (and saying it does work NOT out on the current payout system)
Kate what happens when 300
Kate what happens when 300 million Chinese who's earnings on average are greater than ours in NZ are prepared to pay more for food than us ?
critics with no tolerance of the environment foot print of food production should wake up and open your eyes to what is happening globally
Then they come and buy our
Then they come and buy our farms, and pay us peasant prices to make them stuff to send to their factories.
Just like Nike did to them, and they have such excellent labour laws to stop them doing that to foreigners... [/sacasm mode off]
PS: I'm going turn off replies now. Today I'm supposed to re-entering and reviewing the company's final account data - but my e-mail alert keeps going off. It's great talking to those who are here but once I turn off the email notification I probably won't be able find any of the comment threads. David Chaston(sp?) any chance of a decent thread following system or a daily folio version of the comments?
It's not a matter of whether
It's not a matter of whether they are prepared to pay more for food than us - but rather they are ABLE to pay more for food than us. Same goes for land - and we know what the answer is to that.
But why are they more able to pay?
Because they've been making lotsa their money on copyright knock offs, explotation of their labour force and trashing of their environment.
And Helen signed a free trade agreement with these folks and we're happy to allow them to buy their way into NZ residency - no questions asked about the means by which the money was obtained. The 'way' of globalisation - it's unconscionable to my mind.
They are very able to out bid
They are very able to out bid us for food and they will because they work hard and save/invest aggressively. Their average GDP per capita has doubled in three years in china, ours has been flat or declined for several years in real terms - its just this country has borrowed excessively and as a country, we now have to live within our means. This is becoming very painful for a lot of sectors, yet as a country we don't work hard, save and invest effectively.
No Kate. No Jaffa Boy. They
No Kate. No Jaffa Boy.
They can outbvid us because we're not dealing with Jo Ki Ng of the Chinese public, the equivalent of you or me.
We're dealing with their 1%, there Bob Joneses, Terry Serepisos, Allan Hubbards, Harts, Todds, etc. That's why they have far more capital available than most NZers!
I agree. GDP per capita in
I agree. GDP per capita in China is around USD$5,000 - on a PPP basis USD$8,000.
It certainly isn't their middle class buying offshore assets.
Largely we overspent it on
Largely we overspent it on land Kate what do you mean by land. Rural, urban or both?
Both - only a guess but I
Both - only a guess but I imagine a very large chunk of our current account deficit relates to us paying one another too much for land. I don't think buildings have inflated to the same degree.
we have inflated land prices
we have inflated land prices beyond what is reasonable, so we have had to look to expand our herds at the expense of what is environmentally sustainable Advancements in grass/crop species, technology (cowshed as well as machinery/cultivation),genetics, knowledge/changes of management systems etc have contributed more to increasing herd sizes than debt. In 12 years we have increased on our farm stocking rate has increased from 2.67 cows/ha to 2.95 cows/ha without any increase in debt at all. 12 years ago we paid less than $10kg/ms for our land - hardly high land prices. It's not debt that's the problem for the majority Kate, it's rising costs, coupled with reducing payout.
Come on Cas Ob 12 years ago
Come on Cas Ob 12 years ago the payout hung around the $4.00. For the last few years it must have averaged well above $6. We all get ups and downs, so this year its down. Big deal. You have to plan for those ups and downs. And if it wasnt land farmers were buying it was machinery or a rental. The banks were very good at sewing up most farmers, encouraging them to leverage one way or another. To say debt is not a problem is bull. Absolute tripe. My bank lady loves to tell me how much I dont owe compared to everybody else. Maybe you are in my camp, but there are few sitting in our tent with us.
I standby my comment debt is
I standby my comment debt is not a problem for the majority of dairy farmers, Belle. The average dairy company payout was $5.01 for 2000/01 season. :-) 01/02 $5.35; 02/03 $3.66; 03/04 $4.25; 04/05 $4.58.
The big deal Belle is that because of the higher payouts, suppliers to the dairy industry have ratcheted up their prices to take advantage of the extra cash dairy farmers may have had over the last few years. Now the payout has come down from the heady heights of a few years ago, prices haven't dropped - at all. I have been farming long enough to have seen all the ups and downs of farming - including the 1980's. However we never saw the volitility that we have now. That is what is different now.
Check out the difference between actual payout and inflation adjusted payout in the graph 5.1 on this site, page 42
http://www.lic.co.nz/pdf/DAIRY%20STATISTICS%2010-11-WEB.pdf
What has caught some farmers out (and I would suggest it is bigger than admitted by the powers that be) is the costs of meeting Regional councils ever changing environmental rules. This is especially true for dairy farmers. If you know the changes are coming you can plan/budget for them. It is when rule changes are made 'overnight' and you are expected to find in excess of $100k to make 'immediate' changes that the problems arise. Like wise the introduction of dairy differential rates which are in addition to the farms general rates. In 2000/01 our total RC rates was around $300 (payout was $5.01) This year those same rates will be $3800 (payout expected to be around $5.50). Rates have increased by over 12x, payout hasn't. Compare that to our District Council rates - 2000/01 $5k; 2012/13 $10k - the rate of increase isn't as high as RC rates but they have still doubled but payout hasn't.
I can't speak for your farming industry Belle - your costs may not have seen those sorts of rises, but I do get a little grumpy when people outside the industry say that debt is the problem - for the majority of dairy farmers it isn't. I do accept it is a problem for a minority - and perhaps a significant minority at that, but that debt is being exacerbated by rising costs.
CO - the only reason it could
CO - the only reason it could have 'caught you out', was if you were assuming (in arrogance?) that it wouldn't happen.
Clearly the problem was in existence, clearly (despite some folk spinning spin, eh CO? :) it was escalating, clearly it was only a matter of time.
The only difference between debt and costs, is surely the column you enter them in. McCawber was on the money....
Ah, you are now making
Ah, you are now making assumptions pdk - in ignorance of the facts of the situation to which I was referring. Ignorant (arrogant?) assumptions?
As fairly environmentally friendly thinking folk we had already made allowances/changes so personally it didn't affect us. :-)
When a farmer has a consent and is legally operating within their consent it is only usually as the consent period is coming to a close (maybe 3years prior) that they will consider adding changes in to their budgets. That is because the science in regards to dairy effluent is constantly changing. e.g. in the relatively short time we have owned our current farm the rules around effluent have changed multiple times. In the past the RC would be quite prescriptive in what options you had (this was actually quite good as you knew what exactly they wanted). Now however, they are less prescriptive and say things like 'effluent storage according to best practice' instead of '90 days storage required'.
A friend had put in an effluent system which was encouraged and signed off, as 'best practice' four years ago, only to have some arrogant little man come out last year and say, ' that's not acceptable now, you have to change your system'. 'That will cost me in excess of $200k' said the farmer. 'Well, you should have budgeted for it' said the little man. 'I have, in 2017' said the farmer. The farmer is still in full compliance of his effluent consent with his current system, but was being bullied to change his system immediately, because of a kneejerk reaction by the RC, probably due to talk that the govt was going to 'do an ECan on them'. Thankfully in the fullness of time, those stupid and relationship damaging sorts of behaviour have been modified.
Farmers are making changes pdk, but there is no 'one size fits all' solution to dairy impacts. It has to be done on a catchment, by catchment basis. There are lag times in cause and effect. In our catchment there are three distinct soil types which RC has now stated vary in leaching properties from just weeks to years. They are now doing the science and investigating other possible causes, not just dairy. For waterways in our area RC are now saying sediment is the No1 problem. A bouquet to our RC as I believe they are way ahead of the pack as far as regional councils go. :-)
As to an escalating problem - that was a matter of opinion. :-) Never met your friend McCawber so guess it's one of those theory v practice things.
well to fix sediment, you
well to fix sediment, you probably need to look at cleaning all your drains, removing excess trees and tidy up riparian areas so there is better flow. I'll leave it to PDK to explain who McCawber is in literature.
It's the cleaning of drains
It's the cleaning of drains that is contributing to the sediment mist in our area. - After the RC goes through and cleans them (on a 2/3yr rotation) there is is slumping of drain banks. Hence them looking at battering the drain banks - but who pays?
Soil type doesn't help in some instances. There are situations of farmers on certain soil types planting up riparian strips only to have all the plants ripped out during floods. They are finding in some cases it is better to leave the strips as grass only as less sediment is entering the waterways. Hill country erosion and forestry are also being fingered by the RC. Was talking to a RC scientist recently and through monitoring they have found gravel roads to be a cause, which hadn't been considered earlier. As Southland has the largest area of gravel roads in NZ the cumulative effect of this type of sediment source is now gaining some attention. What, if anything, can be done about it remains to be seen. And of course sediment contributes to nutrients loading.
Egads your RC is doing doing
Egads your RC is doing doing that????
We used to have lots of gravel roads in the Northern Waiararapa as our council actually built up a 1mil nest egg through careful husbandry. They were carefully using the interest but central government of a following year intervened and told them they had to spend it or it would be seized by government coffers (as a fine for overcharging rates).
Now they're in debt and being shoved around by interest rates and the banks like everyone else, and all the projects they had to blow the extra money on are costing a fair bit of cash to maintain.
PDK. What do you produce?
PDK. What do you produce? (beyond your and your families own consumption?)
Mist - ah, well, I account
Mist - ah, well, I account things a little differently from you-all.
We sink enough carbon to more than cover our (less than average admittedly) carbon pollution. We also count the use of fossil-fuels/fertiliser, as a negative, while attempting to maintain/improve our soil.
The sobering answer is "not much"; and that's where we're globally bound. I'm told Lester Brown's new book is worth the read:
http://www.amazon.com/Outgrowing-Earth-Lester-R-Brown/dp/0393327256
It's not a question about
It's not a question about accounting or carbon.
It's a question of production. What do you produce beyond your own families consumption.
If it is zero, then you can achieve that by not eating and drinking - but to provide anything beyond that you would need resources, and larger capital.
That's the direction I'm trying to work on, is how to reduce the "collateral cost" of the operation, and yet find a way of keeping in reach of a decent workday while hitting the basic targets (low impact, family time, non-skyrocketing interest,passive opportunities,repeatability).
I find much of what might work on a high-time input, low production level doesn't scale (eg looting dozens of dead microwaves to create a windgenerator). And getting it to the scale required for a community (say dozen housings, with wives that demand a certain status level of habitation) is interesting. Especially from the self-financing side.
Then you ask the wrong
Then you ask the wrong question, Mist. Not alone, you aren't, but wrong you are.
The aim of food from the land, is food from the land. Physical/biological/chemical balance in inputs/outputs are the only yardstick.
There is where you always miss the point. Money is a man-made, entirely artificial, not guaranteed to monitor, system.
For me, currency is man-made
For me, currency is man-made (artifical, abstract), but money is a product of man..
My aim is not food from the land or survivalism, as I find they don't work beyond the micro-economic. Working within the micro-economic leds to the type of tribalism and accompanying cultural atrophy we see in African and Northern India where we see the minds and world of the tribe constantly shrinking and petrifying. If that's all you want to be, then why crawl out the ocean in the first place. And places like that are at the mercy of the changing world, waiting to take their place next to the neanderthal.
Give me 1000 yuan, and I can do nothing with it. Give a Prepaid Visa to an African villager, that currency is no use to them. Currency is the product of trade.
Give me 20 blankets and a handful of sharp knives of good steel - that's money. Why? Because it's portable, and it can be traded for other things of value, and in itself is no particular use to it's owner (can't really use 20 blankets simultaneously).
Currency becomes money when it enters a culture and market which allocates it a value - be it for trade or for promises/contracts (debt). Thus currency is one step abstract of money itself. In some places currency is considered the work it buys (ie the work hours) but that is really a two-step abstraction. The value of the work (1step) having quantifiable value (money); and the currency tokens (2nd step) used to ease trade.
So, since I do have a community already, with around a dozen houses and they each have a nuclear family in them. And the wives do indeed demand a certain level of comfort, and the husbands require tools, and food. And they have kids with educational needs. And all have shelter, maintenance, and entertainment needs. Then those things create trade. trade creates money. It's not artifical and it's not contrived and it does exist throughout the species in general.
So. Do I populate my shelf stock, my dozen houses, with a family who will only look after themselves, who grow their own vege, create their own power, and little or nothing else. Or should I seek to get a family with an engineer, and a school teacher, who have several well behaved children.
The engineer and the school teacher can create beyond their own needs. They can bring efficiency and effectiveness to their neighbours without depleting themselves. And there efforts need not be wasteful. But something useful, which is in demand, has value. quantifiable value (hours worked, production increase, materials used) are components of money, create tokens to allow convenience of those trades, and you've now not only got money, you've got local currency.
So that's the question, what do you produce? What use are you?
You are cherry picking Cas
You are cherry picking Cas ob, 00 /01 was a very high payout year in context, this year at mebe 5.50 is a low. Now to say that, that means there has been some serious movement upward in prices.
I agree rates are shocking, and as you add value to your land as a dairy farm, you up my rates if you are next door to me.
If you talk environment rules, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Dairying has gone industrial. We dont let factories (well mostly) dump their shit all around the countryside. What makes you think it should be different for farming.
I believe I have said this before here, when I am out and about and asked what I do, and I say farmer I am now greeted with grim silence. I remember the days when I was given a cheery acknowledgement.
I dont use nitrogen anymore, I use rpr and do very little break feeding and no cropping. Compare this with how most dairy farmers treat their land, we have little in common. If it wasnt for the regional councils imagine how bad it would be. Costs are going up for everyone, that doesnt mean we should wreck the rivers to pay our bills. If you consider the billions we owe to overseas banks, I seriously doubt the value of all the infrastructure that has gone into building this big dairy farm that is Enzed.
Rising costs are not a new concept Cas Ob, the new concept is that land prices have stopped rising, and didnt they go down around 30%. Hmmm yes thats what no one figured. The ponzi might stop. If I consider the smaller family farmers I know, everyone is maxed out. EVERY1. I dont know the state of the corporates, but at a guess, they probably out do the family farmers. If one considers the serious cost cutting going on everywhere. You are in dreamland Cas Ob if you think the average farmer has no debt problem.
Belle, go spend some time
Belle, go spend some time researching the discharge consents for industry - you may be surprised at what toxins/contaminents are legally discharged in to the waterways. Likewise sewage consents. There should be no legal discharges of sewage in to waterways, high rainfall or not. Southland has a 28% compliance rate of sewage consents - it's all in their report on line. This figure doesn't seem to improve a lot in any given year. When a local community was surveyed about their 'significantly non-compliant' sewage system upgrade, the overwhelming majority said they didn't want the upgrade, as they didn't want to pay for it. Consequently the non compliance continues unabated without any form of infringement notice/prosecution from RC. I'm not saying dairy should be exempt - only that there should be a level playing field. Farmers cannot use cost as an excuse not to comply with consents, neither should urban consent holders be able to. Afterall, urban NZ is pretty quick to vilify a farmer who has a mechanical breakdown that causes a consent breach (note that is not the same as effluent actually entering a waterway), but seems to think they should remain above the law when their urban schemes literally pour shit in to the waterways.
Did you look at the inflation adjusted payout graph Belle that I linked to? Did you not notice that though payout may have been lower in $ terms years ago, in inflation adjusted terms they were quite high, whereas now the two lines almost converge?
It is telling that Horticulture NZ is also appealing Horizon's One Plan Environment Court decision. The penny is starting to drop that ALL land users have a part to play in water quality.
Suggest you do some research in to the environmental damage dams on rivers cause. Large dams and river diversions have proven to be primary destroyers of aquatic habitat, contributing substantially to the destruction of fisheries, the extinction of species, and the overall loss of the ecosystem services on which the human economy depends. Their social and economic costs have also risen markedly over the past two decades" (Postel 1998, p. 636).
We farm very different land/soil types Belle. Backfencing crops is considered 'good practice' and recommended by ES! Good on you for not using nitrogen, we use very little on our farm and then it is usually liquid urea which has 40% less leaching than solid urea. In fact most of the dairy farmers in our area now use this and similar type products.
It is interesting that you say 'most dairy farmers' when referring to bad environmental practices, yet Gareth Morgan says 'It’s surprising that the environmental authorities have been so slow to define the ecological boundaries. Thankfully we have a huge number of farmers who are conscious of the damage their industry causes anyway and have designed their farm practices accordingly. The efforts of that majority needs to be recognised more widely.' About the only thing he says that I agree with ;-)
Janette Walker wrote on another thread that around 22% of farmers have debt issues. That figure is very similar to what I hear from my contacts in the banks. That would mean around 2400 dairy farmers, which numerically is a lot and maybe a headache for banks, but that still means that the vast majority of dairy farmers are ok at present. So I guess we have to agree to disagree based on the circles in which we move. :-)
Isn't debt responsible for
Isn't debt responsible for the GFC and ongoing reprecussions. Aren't NZ dairy farmers also guilty of contributing behavior? From memory debt has increased from $8MS in early 2000s to over $20MS. That's a phenomenal increase in average debt. Whose carrying the burden? Has efficient (and sustainable) productivity kept pace? Speculative spawned debt assisted by tax structure is an issue alright. Cost inflation is affecting many, just ask consumers buying dairy products, and rates are a burden, but land values don't help that.
Despite Mists and Gareths assertions that the cooperative model is part of the problem afflicting our industry and society in general, I find it unpalatable and without foundation. Ha Joon Chang a professor of economics at Cambridge Uni credits cooperatives with the success of the Dutch, German and Danish dairy industries. Now I wonder if they add more value than NZ dairy cooperatives (eg Tatua)? Being in the middle of the south pacific may be a factor, hence turning milk into milk powder as value add.
It's more than a bit rich and blantantly ridiculous of Gareth to lay the blame for agricultures failures at the feet of th cooperative model. Cooperatives are more likely to have principle based values more consistent with those of the surrounding community than any investor owned industry that will apparently add value and care for the environment as suggested by Gareth. I realise Fonterra may not be a good example, but it ceased adhearing to cooperative principles and values upon releasing 100 years of cooperative development capital at time of its formation, in part due to encouragement from the government and financial investment industry bless their wee socks.
Omnologo, I like the
Omnologo, I like the cooperative model, I just recognise it's faults. There's a tendency to cruise, especially in situations of localised monopoly - it tends to build "water empires".
Add that to the reluctance for many people to waste money, and "experts" giving advice which is contemporary, and it's a bit of a problem.
what was your deleverage rate
what was your deleverage rate in that 12years, and how come you got the land for half price?
I've been deliberately pulling back on many of those "value-ads" because they don't seem to have decent payoff and sustainability for the increased level of risk. And while herd size has shrunk, profitability seems to be up. I've had to go that way as otherwise I'd have to overcapitalise by reinvesting farm returns (ie I'd be building production, rather than reducing cost. i.e. the more I produce the higher my cost overheads - where I'm trying to reduce overheads first (info, feed, staff, fert, energy, in that order) so when production increases my costs won't go up.)
Mist - we sold a farm in
Mist - we sold a farm in Central Plateau and bought in Southland, strictly a business, not emotional, decision. Southland prices were less and you got more land for your $. It was just before prices down south rose. A lot of Nth Island friends thought we were crazy - but we have never lived down on the farm and have always employed 50/50 sharemilkers. By buying in Southland where land was cheaper and more productive, and following a low cost farming system, we have had huge flexibility in lifestyle ever since. The MOTH maintained at the time (and still does) the North Island is over-rated and mostly over priced for dairy. ;-)
Good call. But how did you
Good call.
But how did you afford to buy a farm and put on 50/50's straight up?
We had set ourselves up so we
We had set ourselves up so we didn't need to take drawings from the farm. That makes a big diff. By employing 50/50s we didn't have the capital cost of cows and machinery. Also meant farm staffing wasn't our problem. As absentee owners we gave our sharemilkers a lot of autonomy as far as decision making was concerned. Both our previous sharemilkers went on to their own farms when they finished with us, even though we milk <450 cows. Sure we may have been able to make more $ with contract/lower order, but it isn't just about $. The sharemilking system is something we are passionate about supporting. It has also given us a stable base of a farm workforce. We deliberately sought a farm close enough to town for partners of staff to work off farm, and also <550 cows.
All sounds very similar to
All sounds very similar to what we had back in 2001-2004. couldn't get staff or sharemilkers that would do the job - they all wanted a gravy train AND every mod-con laid out for them....which my folks (who owned that farm) had worked their butts off for 50yrs weren't about to pay them double their own income for a fraction of the work. I know there are sharemilkers that are keen but not as come as hoped.
But if I trace back their farm, they've done a lot of alterations, improved the profitability, paid off the entrance debt and it wasn't really worth getting a 50/50 on-board until very late in the piece. Now I know like myself, my father started on his back foot, about 40-50 years ago - in his case it was because of his brothers handsoff management style.
So I'm looking at what you're saying about being in a no drawings situation, and putting on a 50/50 right off the bat. And 12-20 yrs ago...and my calculations are coming up some 3mil short.... no drawings, might also mean no debt, or 100% finance (with any profit into servicing debt and no personal drawings)... but even 3 mil debt requires additional security.
Where I'm coming from ... is if you walk into an industry with outside income (nest egg/core investment*) AND 3 million in starter funds from somewhere .... then yeah I'm betting debt is not going to be an issue. And with that kind of outside free funds, the yield isn't important either.... which means it's a hobby, not a business. Very different things, very different indeed!
(*aside: Totally recommend the core investment concept - and it's also why I'm a hater when it comes to NZ property laws (re:absentee property owners trying to find decent accountable property managers). To properly establish core investment, it's a requirement that either the core or branch investment must be mostly if not totally passive income. Otherwise there are issues with time-leakage, which is what killed the Crafar empire and many others. With time-leakage, you just can't fight the fires in the new organisation. double your business size, square your problems: so if you're used to hands-on management, or worse your business model is dependant on your skills then the increase will kill you or your business or both.)
Enjoyed your post, mist. Back
Enjoyed your post, mist. Back in 1999/2000 when we bought our current farm and runoff we could have bought 2 farms and a runoff, for around the price of $3mil. Ah, those were the days! ;-) The MOTH always has had goals and a plan to acheive them as well as an ability to 'think outside the square'. We don't believe in the 'child has to inherit the family farm' mantra. That sort of thinking often only retards progressive thinking as folks get emotionally attached to a specific piece of land, and become blinkered in seeing opportunities elsewhere. If it works for some that's fine, but sometimes that can be the wrong way to approach things.
We created our off farm income by each becoming involved in our own businesses - run from home - think consultancy type work. It comes down to self belief, I guess. Some farmers have huge difficulty in letting go, so a 50/50 arrangement would only end in disaster for them, but for others it gives a flexibility of lifestyle others only dream about.
Our farm is a business for us - it has to be in the sense that it has to be profitable as it is intended to provide us with a retirement income i.e. we will take drawings from it, as we have no expectation of receiving National Super. If NS is still around then that will be a bonus. :-) Surpluses have been used to diversify our investments - we have never wanted a 2nd farm. You are spot on about time-leakage. :-)
I suppose I'm used to North
I suppose I'm used to North Island prices. I haven't seen a place in the NI, capable of supporting 450cows for 1.5mil for a Long time.
I'm a supporter of the kids inheriting (via the company shares) because I don't see the point in making them have to re-work the same miles I've already covered. It's bad enough the price of land from farmers buying off each other, why cripple the dynasty by making them blow their capital on that. Far better it serves as solid equity (or solid to move on) for their future ventures.
But you must have pulling in some serious cash at the beginning (from outside) - because I know how much it takes to tame a farm, and having to pay 50/50 sharemilker really kills the profit margins. And by serious cash, I'm talking what the normal farmers couldn't get paid shoudl they try the same (although many wives have to work in town.)
My Grandfather also had some contracting equipment, and they did off farm work. But it frequently didn't pay off. If he had to work the machinery, the farm got neglected (or he had to hire staff that cost him more than he mde). If he didn't work the machinery, people wrecked it. The machinery always required maintainence which was extra tiring overhead. And because your customers always come first (if you want to keep them) his own farm contractables (eg haymaking) always ended up last priority.
We have found through ourselves and others, that sharemilkers tended to be too risky. Not doing weeds. Not upkeeping infrastructure (water, pumps, fences). Not keeping up with Nitrogen and not wanting to help with suppliment preparation (silage stacks, using tractors to pickup hay). In a couple of cases, claiming a herd was PW>120, then turning up with PW<70 (300cows) and demanding extra hay for a herd of 50steers completely outside the sharemilking and farm contract (they were wondering why he seemed to be going through the winter supplies so fast - turns out he'd leased a block, used their fert and weedspray on it, put 50 yrling steers, and was shipping their feed by truck to it - and the guy was pissed because they wouldn't supply more feed for the dairy cows. He just thought as a sharemilker he was entitled to it for free (he did offer to pay his percentage of the suppliment, but wasn't parting with any profit from the steers as they were his.)
It wasn't an easy ride mist.
It wasn't an easy ride mist. ;-) We had been farming for around 20years by the time we bought down south.
Selling land that was high $ value, to buy considerably more land that had a much lower $ value, but with greater productivity potential was a no brainer really. The potential to increase production on the farm we bought was significant - even on the low input system we operate. That has been key to the farm being a first class investment. The first thing we did was engage in conservation measures - riparian strips, fencing off wetlands, native bush-long before it bcame 'fashionable' to do so. While we did that, the sharemilkers did their bit by bringing on to the farm quality stock and first class management skills on converting grass to milk, using a low cost system.
Some people are good at recognising good staff and some people aren't. There are some shockers out there as 50/50 employers too, mist.
re: nemployers. Heck yeah.
re: nemployers. Heck yeah. From the Crafaar attitude of "if they're actually keen sharemilkers they'll do up my place at their cost" (put in effluent systems, races etc) - to other friends of mine on a beef conversion whose bosses flat refuse to stop putting piles of K (potash) on the entire farm (including calving paddocks).
So did you do all that raparian stuff on the earlier farm? 'Cause that's what I've been saying once you've got some equity and positive cashflow all that kind of stuff (extras, renewal plans, quality staff at higher wage, going off farm) becomes possible. Whatwould have happened if (like me) you were expected to take it on in your first 5 yrs?
(which is no so bad for conversions, as they don't owe on the land so they can work through the cashflow issues, But for farmers with farming as their primary business (not like me), who who are already trying to get their first farm paid down to under 30% owing....
The Pot calling the kettle
The Pot calling the kettle black.
Garth you should be checking what is happening on your own farm in Brazil that you have invested in
1000 kilograms of artifical nitrogen applied to every hectare on your farm that supports a very high stocking rates ( 8 cows / hectare ) growing 45 tons of grass / hectare
compare NZ average 150 kilograms and 3 cows / hectare
where is all the excess nitrogen going after it has passed though the cows via urine ???
Garth just to help you out here the Answer = Into the aquifer
if you want slam food producers in N Z please avoid the double standards
Wow.... Gareth?
Wow.... Gareth?
It's legal over there so that
It's legal over there so that makes it all ok (apparantly).
Mmm pot and kettle, I hope
Mmm pot and kettle, I hope its not the case, I enjoy Gareths take on stuff. But hypocrits, not so much.
It is the case
It is the case
I agree with all your points
I agree with all your points Gareth....
However - where is the money to do these changes going to come from?
Farming is very demanding and to make ends meet we have hideously low staffing rates (making demands on time very high) and re-use a lot of materials (and get criticised by our Information Age consultants for how 'tatty' or 'untidy' the farms look - including farm inspectors). We take enormously long term debts to ride out the bad years. And for many dairy farmers majority revenue only comes in part year - and our sheep and beef bro's often only have one or three paychecks per year.
Fed Farmers, NZ Dairy, MAF, and places like Wool board, and Fonterra were put in place to look after much of what you discuss. Ballance and Ravensdown two of the main fertiliser companies are also co-operatives - will the concept that being cooperatives they would set out to develop the best for industry products (ie ones with no cadmium and environmental friendly, and cheap as possible to service the industry).
So who has failed?
The farmer who is still making sod all money - and has no personal control over all those experts? Yes we need to get a progressive group together.... but we already have so many other groups we're paying who are our Experts to tell us what to do, what difference is another bunch of leeches with nothing useful at ground level going to achieve.
What we really need is the experts to do they job and develop the supply of product we need - and the other experts to ensure the profitability is there to purchase them.
Heck - most of the time we can't even convince most people farm animals aren't companion animals (pets) and farms aren't a sort of park.
Cry me a river Mist. There
Cry me a river Mist. There are two easy ways for dairy to get its costs down so they can afford to stop the pollution.
No 1 Pay less for your cows
No 2 Pay less for your land
Farmers own worst enemy...another farmer. We compete fiercely in the market place for land and stock and dont leave money for the other important stuff.
Sadly we may be joining the
Sadly we may be joining the group that remain unwilling to buy into the pay n be damned brigade. Of course it means the end of the dream but we are at the moment able live in a beautiful place and enjoy the farming.
Keep looking for the deals
Keep looking for the deals that work redcows. Dont lose the faith. When looking for the farm we bought, we couldnt believe what people were expecting to get paid for some of their rubbish land. Eventually we got a really good block, it was a bit further out than I expected, but it sure grows grass. Half the price of the crap closer to town.
Sadly Belle the system
Sadly Belle the system doesn't work much like that.
So we're looking at selling the land to offshore interests.
And cows are priced at 1 years production on average, I pay 40% and sell for 66% and since the price setting agent is the works price (beef to plate) I doubt that's going to go down while demand exists for beef.
Since the demand is there from the offshore buyers, there is no reason for the land price to fall. And then there's the close to town farms which can be subdivided, they're not like to drop in value - in fact if Hugh got his way the speculators would skyrocket those areas, possibly even holding the land unworked or leased for grazing. But - the land prices at the moment, are set in response to so many years worth of gross production.
After all good productive land - especially that close by an existing farm, is somewhat of a goldmine for someone wanting to farm - hard to farm without it - ask some sharemilker friends of mine - Belle have YOU ever had a 600 cow herd, and your next farm engagement sold from under you? What do you think a farm would have been worth to them at that point.
Even lousy farmland, as an entry level system, taken as a 50yr plan amortises out well.
And why if someone has freehold use of such a purchase, would they sell out for less.
It's property. Apart from the rates, why else would one sell.
And like residental property it has potential lease value.
Why would such land drop in value? It only goes down when their is pressure to sell, and if the price is dropping then the pressure to sell at a loss.......
But yes. I am looking at a way personally to pay less for both and increase the yield of my money. By getting out of farming in NZ. Those that want to stay can be futher eaten alive by inflation and those trying to keep up with the Jones by borrowing, can borrow some of my yield.
I'll look at getting back in when farmers can pass the cost of consumers demands on to those consumers. (and I've got some excellent value-add ideas from elsewhere how to do it. although again... why in NZ!)
This is hilarious. You've
This is hilarious. You've spent the best part of an afternoon explaining how farming meat protein isn't profitable if there are rules and requirements put around intensification and land use.
So you intend to sell your land holding at an inflated price (as compared to its sustainable productive capacity) to some foreigner.
And then you will "get back in" to farming in NZ when NZ consumers are prepared to pay the price for the pollution/environmental degradation caused by your requirement to run too many and/or the wrong type of animals on the land.
Have I got that right?
No you haven't got it
No you haven't got it right.
I'm running a tigher than average ship. I'm already ahead of where these people are trying to put the controls (I would have to up my Nitrogen use by a factor of 5 to hit my current areas recommended minimum). That's why I'm well aware of the problems.
I'm also a lot more financial and economic and other sciences trained that the majority of NZ farmers. And I have off farm income. And experience in other industries.
Thus I know what's coming. I know what costs they're going to hit, and what signs will occur, and what recommendations and responses are likely to be - because I've alread been through similar in other industries. I also have the technical skills to do the analysis work.
It's not that meat protein isn't profitable, which seems to be your sticking point. It's that it's not profitable or sustainable in this pricing model. How's your market and business modelling skills? Name a single framework you're personally familiar with and I'll put it in that context. In short, the costs for consumer demands must be passed to consumers otherwise the business will decay (unless it previously demanded excessive premium markups - but then that would indicate a simple shift in market maturity).
*I* want to see sustainable and reasonable use, so that the resources can stream to market effectively and without causing excessive destruction in my country, and without destroying the culture there (which it has been doing, as the Information Age watches the population grow more stupid and more educated). To achieve this, capital (ie profit, sustainable profit and growth) must be maintained. But frequently to go beyondthe amount needed for exploration of alternatives just results in the population become lax (seeking entertainment and other luxuries).
I intend to sell properties at market price. for their current value.
My emotive consideration and intellectual estimation is that current cost structures will continue to increase, those in power in those revenue streams will not act to rebalance the system choosing instead to personally profit, until pressures get to the point where the system collapses (either fully or partial).
In the meantime I'll take my short profit(or loss) out now, invest elsewhere while the parasites strip the carcass bare. And when (if) the cost structures move on, I'll see what state they've left things. If the properties are improved and people financially bled dry, then I'll look at buying some of them out. If the properties are unimproved, I'll consider what is required to bring them to the level of self-sufficiency (and isolation from risk) that I desire and considering buying and improving them. But if the parasites are still hanging about looking for their next feed, then I'll wait elsewhere.
It's a bit like a friend of mine who grew 20 hectare of pines and 20 of natives as an investment on his runoff. Cost in the region of 10k to put in, 2k to trim and de-possum each year. After 10 years, he found that they were going to cost him 100k to cut, trim, depose of trimmings, and replant/regrass - and he was only going to make 80k from the sale. And the council might not even let him cut the natives down (which was going to be the "cream" of the crop). So he sold the whole runoff (and his farm) and went growing grapes instead. but he got market price for farm, and a bit extra for the trees.... why? because the "asset value" values the revenue, not the profit !!!!!! which is a common scam pulled in NZ
Sorry lost track.
No I'm not the one with the high density animals. I'm the one with low density pastures.
When the others have stuffed it up (and the industry collapses - remember the goats? the early kiwifruit boom?) THEN I look at renewing it, once the cost of consumers demands can be passed to them.
I understand what your
I understand what your frustrations are Mist, and get that you think you would like to get back into land and farming if things pan out. Personally after watching the realestate papers a lot for years I think now is a good time to get in, if you have some dosh, not out. There is so much pain out there, I think many are willing to talk turkey. But I dont base that on much fact, just hearing tit bits from hear and there.
I am similar to you, low inputs, take it easy, yet still have it sorted that I maximise my assets here. Look to the future and hope to demolish the debt before the shit really hits the fan.
More than a little bit concerned that Gareth is like Prince Charles, do as I say but not as I do. I am green, but only if it doesnt stop me from using that private jet. I appreciate the intelligent thought that is spouted, but back it up with something. He has the where with all.
Oh heck no. Land and farming
Oh heck no. Land and farming smells bad and is like hard work (and I'm sitll on the land, muddling along). It's always a good time to get in, and always a good time to get out :)
I think Gareth, like Prince Charles, has other jobs which pays the bacon. And that's the question do they have what it takes to pay for all the extra trimmings, and how are we supposed to play "Keep up with the consent Jones" when they've got outside supplies, when we can't recover costs? And by we, I mean all NZ businesses, not just farming.
To whit, that's where my future, capitalist, interest lie. Building value, increasing value from adds...not prices from "value-ads". passing on opportunities and part margins to people to work with. (As opposed to stripping them for every penny and overcharging for every service they need). I want to be able to put people on the land, as others helped me, and have a better world from it. Not corporate slaves and slaved masters. I got this theory that's completely on faith - that I can only be free and fair to myself if I help my fellows do the same. And if I'm wrong in that, I don't care I still sounds like it's better than the alternatives.
If farmers are really making
If farmers are really making sod all money, then the environmental damage caused is even more unacceptable. The only possible argument for is that farming creates significant economic benefit to the country and the individual farmers.
The idea that farming is really about low or no profits followed by capital gain when you sell the farm makes no sense either. Why is there capital gain if it is not possible to make a sensible return off the land? Unless land prices are an irrational bubble which will pop at some time in the future.....
You talk rubbish SimonP, and
You talk rubbish SimonP, and it is unacceptable.
It is rubbish because your socialist claptrap doesn't exist where the rubber meets the road.
The country and community don't provide the farms. Individual farmers and farming business do. I tell you now, if "The community" wanted to pay for and install and maintain "environmental benefits" the farmers would be dead keen,
And if you had ANY clue about business or private enterprise, you would realise how people like yourself saying "it makes no sense" is daft as an extra daft brush.
It makes sense because that's what it takes to run a farm. That's what it takes to pick up the family farm or get out into an industry in NZ that used to have a bit of personal freedom from the rotrace.
Many people get in for the lifestyle. They enjoy physical work, like setting their own goals and seeing what they can produce. Others like animals (shudder). Or just want to get out of towns/cities/offices and office bosses. They like to feel some sort of connectedness and personal pride in producing something themselves, something tangible and good.
And many get trapped. In the debt and poverty. And by the time they've done enough work to get to a point where exit is possible, it's only another few until a retirement is possible.
If you think you can do better. You think it is truly "unacceptable". Then get down in the mud, get the big loan, and show us how it's done. Or at least startup your own business and buy a freaking clue.
Suggesting that user pays
Suggesting that user pays should apply when a public good such as water quality is diminished is hardly 'socialist'. Quite the opposite in fact. A free market with economically rational actors allied with consistent and coherent environmental legislation would do a world of good.
SimonP, "User pays" means
SimonP, "User pays" means that CONSUMERS receive the passed on costs.
And hey, farmers are all for that.
But that's not what you're saying, you are ignoring that the farmers (the guys you're saying "don't make sense") are price takers. The Retailers, Distributors, Wholesalers, and Processors (and more importantly their Information Economy parasites, make all the money, leaving pittance passed to farmers. And you're indicating that farmers be the ones responsible - but it's not the farmers that set the sale price of their goods, at least not in Dairy and Meat, and cropping/vegetables are lying low because they've got even bigger problems than ruminant farmers. The Processors are the ones who decide how much they're selling for then take their expenses off, and pay the farmers a portion of whats left.
If you're looking for environment improvement, you're either looking at a socialist system (for the countries good, and everyones' expense), or User pays which means the shelf prices must go up considerably for all meat, milk, grain, vege, fruit, and textile (eg wools) (or we could import them o_O?!? from people without environment constriants!), or for a few people like myself bucking the wholesystem to find out what works. Although there will be considerable numbers of NZ farmers who will just buckle down, invest more capital in business and say "they're not coming for me, so it's not my business".......
I think you've hit one of the
I think you've hit one of the key issues there, farmers could implement all the latest environmental spending etc, then try to pass along costs, and the consumer would then opt to import the meat/vegetables etc because it is cheaper (from somewhere w/o environmental constraints).
What can an individual farmer do in these circumstances, you would need to have the govt look at enironmental tariffs on importers, which would be a tough sell.
"The only possible argument
"The only possible argument for is that farming creates significant economic benefit to the country and the individual farmers"
This is why I labelled it socialist SimonP. Claiming it's all ok, just because a bunch of do little townfolk get to ride in on the gravy train, is not acceptable.
The only possible argument is - the do little consumers part with resources to either fix the problem and see that those resources actually get used to fix the problem (not paid to consultants, celebrities, councillors, or other parasites.) or there is no other option (or if serious enough, the activity is halted - eg Exxon, fracking)
Saying "we're all getting rich from the pollution". well those that do that deserve to wallow in their own outcome - shame they have to take the rest of us with them.
But the population is going to go with a price competitive market, and a free market favours lowest cost producer with the best Information Liar. Which results in best premiums to clean up ending up in pockets which don't spend, especially on clean up (and usually on better liars or protecting the ones they already use).
So it comes down to User Pays, but that has to be the consumer end. Force a business to become a consumer, then that business loses value, fails to pass on shrinking revenue to staff, and eventually folds - because the business doesn't really get a choice in the consumption. If a sale needs to be made, then they need to produce. It is the consumer which makes the "point of consumption" choice. Either they can afford to consumer - or not. If a business is forced into a consumer role, it would be forced to close that product line if they can't afford to consume.
We've got about 20 acres of
We've got about 20 acres of grazing land and a number of good outbuildings/infrastructure. I looked at what to do with that land. Costed out growing all the different types of protein we eat and not one animal (not even chickens) make economic sense - the grocery store is my best bet for meat, milk and eggs - and subsequently I've leased the land to neighbours who 'grow their own' largely for the novelty/image.
Pigs would have made sense,
Pigs would have made sense, but there's such a negative image and neighbour issues.
Animals require maintenance and the buildings they use require considerable maintenance. And that all requires time.
You could also go into calf raising in a intensified way - if you can get good deals on milk or powder.
If the land is right for it, you could also look at growing animal suppliment feed. Several harvests a year have good return, but it does mean learning soil husbandry techniques.
Really depends if you're looking towards developing a big picture plan, or more focussed just on yourselves and your own consumption.
Pigs would make sense
Pigs would make sense but.......l
competing with feed subsidised forgein imports of pork? Dont think so.
Niegbours happy with a pig farm close and even free range the stocking rate is still going to give the same pollution problems mythologicaly associated with dairying.
As to Morgans denigration of cooperatives, pfft. They are the only reason agriculture serves in NZ as a viable industry. Outside "investors" have a shocking track record in Ag.
Recently Fonterra has ceased to be/act as a co-op and with its launch with the NZX it will definatley look to put shareholders first and Farmer owners elsewhere.
Oh and good rant there mist. Number 63 kick you recently?
Pigs are actually modestly
Pigs are actually modestly effective on a small area. No way you could get dairy, beef, sheep, goat, alpacas, emu on 20acre as a full business. the chooks? free range maybe but not worth the infrastructure at that size for any other style. Could do cut'n'carry but that involves fuel (so expensive in NZ), extra vehicles (so expensive in NZ). and a large area nearby.
If NZ had a farm friendly infrastructure - say perhaps from NZ Government "backing winners" by greasing farms, and arm bending competition and inspectors - then perhaps a Chinese or US style animal hotel could work on 20 acre. Probably need a US-style "Dispensation" to keep the consents people at bay, and US-style you'd probably have to purchase a politician to ensure that worked to ensure your "winner" stayed backed.
And no, 63 has given up kicking anybody.
But as a Capitalist I'm a bit tired of Information Economy experts getting considerable sums for their brand, and yet return so little value. Just as well I don't consider doing this much longer. Doing some serious deleveraging and then out. (3 mortgages done, 2 credit cards, 2 personal loans and the GE card in the last 4 months. 3 more mortgages, and 2 business loans to go.... but who's counting...)
Kate if you cant make
Kate if you cant make economic sense out of growing your own you just dont know what you are doing..... growing your own veg, or some fruit, milking a cow or goat, fattening a couple of lambs or pigs, having some chooks for eggs. Are you crazy? Or addicted to your trips away. The thing with lifestyle blocks, they take work, 7 days a week.
Dont mistake cost for laziness.
Edit, that sounds awful, and I dont mean to be rude. But come on Kate.....
Belle, they might be finding
Belle, they might be finding what I have. Such things work ok for lifestylers ,who just want to do that kind of thing for there own amusement and/or survivalist philosophies. But in this day and age trying to actually turn a living of such a small acre is unlikely - and moving to exotics (olives, nashi, etc) or niche products is quite expensive and high risk in the current economic climate (read: very difficult to establish market connections.)
I suppose could do wheat and sorgum seedlings, or even kick off a industry starter providing starter kits for (sub)urbanites wanting to get their own vege/herbs going but those are rather full markets.
As you say 7days a week, and small size means few staff options.
I may have mistaken what Kate
I may have mistaken what Kate meant, but I didnt think she meant for it to make a living. However to supplement your wage with a 20 acre block, great... you can register and claim a good bit of your gst. Small business tax claims can save a lot of dosh.
We've got just under 100
We've got just under 100 acres but about 60 are planted in pine. 20 acres in existing paddocks. It was purchased just as a lifestyle block - but I was determined not to let it become a "life sentence" - in other words, costing us more than what it earned as a land holding. One could perhaps earn a living off it if one wanted to do firewood but very hard work - two man operation - not worth it if you have to employ the second man.
A family of 5-6 might find it worthwhile to own/graze their own animals - but not a family of two, in my opinion.
Agree on the GST thing - and indeed given we have both the forest and the grazing leases - we are registered.
Not following you: you say
Not following you: you say it's in forest pines - yet you say you're wanting to turn a profit (ie "costing more than what it earned"). Green pine holdings have had net losses after harvesting for years - so much so that some indirect investors are going to be in for a shock when they realise they've subsidised someone elses wages and maintenance for the last 25yrs, and now have to make good on the last of the "investments" inccurred debts. (they borrow against the future market income to cover expenses, are employees not investors so rank first in debtors, and when the harvest is done it's the sale of land proceeds with make the original owners the profit, and not the tree investors!!)
Or in the case of small lots, the harvest and repatronising costs.
yet you say you're wanting to
yet you say you're wanting to turn a profit
No, I just didn't want to lose money on the land holding. That was the point - we bought it as a home to live in - the location/view and house just happened to be on 90+ acres and I didn't want 'the property' to eat into either our savings or our off-farm income.
We didn't plant the pines - nor had they been valued and added in to the sale price. So basically we got 60 acres of pine for free.
IF you're not losing money
IF you're not losing money then you're turning a profit.
IF you're not turning a profit, opportunity costs are factored in and you're losing money.
eg please, and I mean this nicely, get it checked out what the full removal cost of those pines will be.
My folks have a commercial building in Napier. It has a flat on the top floor. Initially they planned the building would generate enough income that the flat woudl be "free". It's pretty marginal with all the usual tenant issues. They were away from the place for a year, so rented out the flat to keep it fresh. Turns out it makes significant profit for the entire investment - holding it empty for personal use was actually a rather noticable cost. They would have been better running it as a proper investment and then just renting a hotel room or house when they wanted one.
This place is just our home -
This place is just our home - we swapped one in town for one in the country - and the country one came with this amount of land. Needing to keep the paddock grass down (largely to keep the place looking tidy, as its too steep to mow) - I checked out grazing of our own animals - and found purchasing and raising those (either beefies, sheep or goats) was not worthwhile - in other words I'd likely lose money - maybe not every year but the risk of losses was always there; or put another way, the guarantee of no losses was only there in owning no animals.
Yeah, we got a forestry consultant in recently to do the valuation. Our block is one of a number boardering one another - all planted at the same time and subsequently subdivided and sold. Access roads in are good - our tracks are excellent and processing is very close as well (at present). So it's not like the crew will be brought in just for one 60 acre block. They are 4-5 years off profitable harvest (given today's log prices) and if we let them grow on for 5-10 more years the profitability goes up. Meantime, we've registered them under the ETS scheme, and we'll just hold onto 75% of the credits in a wait and see.
Sounds promising then. I
Sounds promising then. I hope it goes well for the harvest. (much easier to leave a tidy job, if you're not going broke doing it - which is pretty much what I'm saying about the dairying.)
Belle, seriously, brush up on
Belle, seriously, brush up on the recent changes to the tax avoidance laws. Have a word to an accountant that's up on the latest changes (and please! don't post things like that in a public forum). IRD are chasing down people that are using negative gearing technique and income reduction systems that provide benefit at the expense of income (aka non-taxable incomes).
Even the Amway and US "get-rich-now" books which recommend a home business to recover expenses against tax, are treading on thin ice.
Lol, ah yes I believe there
Lol, ah yes I believe there are significant changes. However if you create a genuine business, there are some definite benefits. And I would never be afraid of claiming what is rightfully a business expense. The idea is not to get greedy and push the envelope. Of course there are downsides, such as ACC as a backup. Its not. And once you do some self employment work, ACC dont want to know you unless you pick and pay for their cover plus thing.
With current Look Through
With current Look Through company rules (replacing, I think the old Loss Attributing system) a business or company which has an employee-shareholder. especially one that has influence in setting their wage rate. then some business expenses can be considered personal expenses, far and beyond FBT.
Its not about being greedy and 'evading' tax, they're after legimate users and labelling it 'avoidance'.
Ever use a company phone for a private call? Then that's a convenience to you (supplying the phone) you should be taxed for the full value of the phone. You make business calls too, that's nice. But you're avoiding tax by not buying your own separate phone. How is this "avoiding tax"? Because the use of the phone, the phone is an asset, you have use of an asset with value, therefore the value of that asset is "In Real Terms" your phone. So by letting you use their phone, you have 'increased your non-taxable' (ie non-cash) ""income"" by the value of one phone. You didn't pay tax on that one phone increase, so you're avoiding tax on that increase.
Which is how Child Supports "Independant" Lawyer explained it to me.
Mist I think you must be sick
Mist I think you must be sick of the rain like me.
catching up on accounting
catching up on accounting crap. and it's a day when the wiggly-line is sleeping :(
Growing our own fruit and veg
Growing our own fruit and veg - yep - it makes economic sense. But not animal protein - not at the prices we can get it store/butcher bought, particularly when shopping the specials and keeping a large freezer (we are only two people - so a house cow for example would over produce - so we'd need perhaps a pig or two to use up the excess - and then they'd need supplementary feed, like scraps - and so we'd have to go collect those on a regular basis from some business - incurring petrol costs. And then there are vet bills and all the extra bits and pieces of equipment you need for animal husbandry etc etc).
The best return on our land has most certainly been grazing leases. Regular income by direct credit, no unexpected costs, no risk, no losses. I do have three goats who free range the property and do a stunning job of keeping the weeds down. They've been good value.
So pretty much entirely
So pretty much entirely internally focused then.
Whats your return on the grazing leases vs the valuation of the land. From what I know of valuations and grazing you'd be better to sell the grazing land and put it into something else - eg NZX dividend yielding stocks. (yeah, I'm saying your yield is probably even worse than the NZX . yep seriously!)
The grazing leases pay the
The grazing leases pay the rates. Rates went down substantialy when we moved from an 800m2 section in the city to the 90+ acres out here. And I am the same 12kms from my work. As the place is just our home, I reckon it was a good deal. Had I been raising my own beefies on the land - I doubt I'd have got the same return - indeed could well have lost money.
Gross return = revenue
Gross return = revenue divided by valuation.
Gross return on a 3% interest bearing savings account is 3%. eg $1000, @3% = $30 revenue (before tax). 30/1000 = 3%.
What's the return? better than 3%? Better than http://www.interest.co.nz/saving/term-deposits-1-to-9-months ?
Agreed, Belle. Between us,
Agreed, Belle.
Between us, we average one person full-time working something on the land. It can be weed/blackberry clearing, planting, weeding, watering, doing the chooks and the goats (they're weed-eaters only) and maintaining things.
Free-range-and-supplement chooks are on the plus side of the ledger, for sure.
That results in almost no grocery bill. no power bill at all, and not a lot of overhead. I do wonder about the calories we burn doing it all, vs the calories we make, though. :)
Sad about Gareths Brazil operation, I'd suspected it for a while though; you don't go there for no reason. Doesn't make his article wrong, though. Just reduces his cred.
just seeing on a website how
just seeing on a website how some advertisers are predicting a Boom in NZ agriculture.
And that we are going to be the "Food Bowl" of Asia (hopefully will fare better than the Fruit bowl of Africa!).
And that this means trillion dollars of increased business.
My question is how much of that "boom" and "Trillion dollar business" is likely to get back to the primary sector? How much of it is going to end up in the pockets of the "Information Economy" (consultants, environmentalists, lawyers, marketers, endorsements).
Where are the funds (and nutrients) going to come for this massive intensification of agriculture? Are the farmers (and technicians manning the imported machinery) still supposed to take big loans and supply the food at cost or less?? Guess what this farmers opinion is on that.... Although I'm sure the Asians would love every chance to sell us more machine and factory fitouts to do the job, even on good terms and probably high quality equipment (at least at the start). After all that machinery etc is _their_ major exports (they're playing the RayCrock card).
(to spell it out for Ms de Meanor: we get to borrow foreign money and pay interest to foreign bankers, in order to sell them reduced price highest quality food cheaply - and they get to sell to us expensive premium margin machinery, which will likely need lots of parts and/or quick obselesence) which we pay for from the loans they give us - and borrowing in NZ isn't cheap either. - spot any downsides to the NZers?
Gareth, there are too many
Gareth, there are too many leeches hanging on by their gums and sucking the poor old biddies dry. By the time these leeches get their cut, there is nothing left for serious environmental protection. The banks the advisors the equity partners....not enough doing the actual tit pulling, yet still taking a cut. Something has to change.
Belle that's called the
Belle that's called the "Information Economy" and someone has to keep the ex-rugby players in their retirement business...
And it won't change until it breaks because they think they're the experts and the tit-pullers are the slackers. And as long as local and central government can extract whatever they see fit to keep themselves and the voters happy, it's going to stay that way.
Environmentalists do not
Environmentalists do not always win in court, so this is a great victory to the environment and for people as well. We forget that we are a part of the ecosystem, and whatever part of the environment we destroy, we are inadvertently destroying a part of ourselves. This is not just a cause for the farmers and the government, but the consumers as well, even if it means proper storage and disposal of the consumables. I do not think all of us need to be vegetarians (that is quite a drastic step and, to me, unnecessary). What we need to do is implement a more structured plan for everyone. All of us can chip in to save the environment, and it is time we do so.