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English queried by young professionals on lack of tax reform ambition
Finance Minister Bill English was asked by a couple of questioners at a Massey University Finance conference in Auckland today about his advice to young professionals thinking of leaving New Zealand because of relatively low wages and a lack of opportunities. One queried whether the government was being ambitious enough with its tax reforms.
One asked what his advice would be to a young New Zealander who wanted to work overseas. English replied:
"Just Fly Air New Zealand. Go off and do it. Any Kiwi kid is a globally attractive human resource."
But English said the government's role was to reform the economy enough to make it attractive enough for those New Zealanders to come home when it was time to have a family.
Asked what he told his own children at the breakfast table, he said: "I tell them I'm going off to work so that when they're 30 they can be back here to raise their kids."
English said the aim was to make New Zealand attractive for those wanting to run and start small businesses, rather than for those working in very global big businesses. "If you want to run a big oil refinery or be an M&A banker then off you go," he said, adding that those who wanted a more entrepreneurial and innovative place to live and work should be able to return home.
He said there were no magic bullets for reforming the economy.
"We've got to boil that down to actual policy choices. Not just wish lists. One of the policy choices we've made is to tilt the playing field in favour of investment, rather than debt funded consumption," he said.
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"We're taking a reasonable number of political risks in a system that works against taking big political risks."
English agreed with a questioner who suggested that the current choices made it easy for young educated New Zealanders to leave, but that the government aimed over the next 4-5 years to make New Zealand more attractive.
"The proposition right now isn't strong enough and doesn't do us justice and doesn't do you justice."
92 Comments
What a great visionary Mr
What a great visionary Mr English is - not.
Well, Singaporean govt is encouraging
Well, Singaporean govt is encouraging their youngs to go study and work overseas gaining good experiences and then come back when they ready. My ex-flatmate had all of his expenses paid, he's now back in Singapore. But the major different is that when they come back to Singapre they will have a good job lined up - here they come back to line up the dole queue (or getting pay pittance).
Oh please don't go on about housing costs - houses in Singapore is 2-3 times more expensive than ours.
Even more unbelievable. So, if
Even more unbelievable.
So, if you don't want to have a family - leave forever after you get your degree?
It simply doesn't work like
It simply doesn't work like that. If you think about it, when a young person goes overseas, it is more than likely they will meet their life partner. Then there is probably a very high chance that they won't return. That will however depend on whether the person going overseas is male of female. Most of my male friends who have gone overseas and met partners, have stayed overseas and bringing up families overseas. Many females would prefer to be around their family when bring up a family, for that support. However a higher percentage of females than male I know have returned to settle down. Also if they have a big student loan then there is even less incentive to return.
Does he not think that
Does he not think that young people are in fact more likely to take the risk to start their own business?
Once they have a family they need a settled income.
Oh no wait...you have to use your family home to get the loan to start the business. Wonder why that is?
Way to go Billy Bob..........
Way to go Billy Bob.......... and with a wave of the hand..... well bugger off then..! come back when you want to settle into a life of kids...mortgage....tax burden...super shitty rates....it'll all still be here waiting for you.. yeah..huh...oh what the hell don't come back if you don't have to.
Mr English should have also
Mr English should have also say "just as long as you pay your student loan...with interest please." ;-)
The more I think about
The more I think about this - the more his attitude/advice astonishes me.
Our taxes heavily subsidise tertiary educations - if our own government believes there is nothing good enough about establishing your early career in New Zealand to keep our graduates at home - what hope have we got?
I moved here from the States at 21 years of age - just after finishing my Bachelor's degree - and indeed I've had a more fulfilling, internationally-orientated career than any of my siblings. NZ is a great place to be given the opportunities to travel abroad in your work - as given this is such a small place, you can rise to these sorts of executive jobs/tasks so much quicker than in the US or UK.
For goodness sake - John Key himself started his career in New Zealand! He didn't get where he got to overseas as a greenhorn graduate with no work experience at all.
English is a fool who obviously never worked a day in his life in the private sector.
He said there were no
He said there were no magic bullets for reforming the economy. [Well, ones that won't disturb the status quo that is.]
"We've got to boil that down to actual policy choices. Not just wish lists. One of the policy choices we've made is to tilt the playing field in favour of investment, rather than debt funded consumption," he said. [So far all we've seen from you guys is, wishful thinking!]
"We're taking a reasonable number of political risks in a system that works against taking big political risks." [They've given up.]
More to the point, Jacko
More to the point, Jacko - I couldn't give a toss about their political risks - what about the risks to NZ's economy of poor policy and governance choices in the meantime!!!
That last statement of his really shows his (and his party's) true colours - they couldn't give a toss about anything other than getting voted in for a second term.
National's 3 rules (and Labour's)
National's 3 rules (and Labour's)
1.Must protect status quo
2.Must protect status quo
3.Must protect status quo
Is economic failure not a
Is economic failure not a political risk?
I bet Greek politicians are feeling the heat.
"Pictures of Match Stick Men"
"Pictures of Match Stick Men" eh, stevek!
Advice from a wise men.
Advice from a wise men.
Young professionals should sack the government including surroundings.
Keynes said something like "its
Keynes said something like "its better for the reputation to fail conventionally than to suceed unconventionally" Bill English has firmly tied NZ policy to Australia, so if they go down he and the other incremental status quo protectors can say "see it wasn't just us, everybody's in the same boat, you can't blame me" Conventional economics really is the dismal science of lemmings and sheep.
He might raise the top
He might raise the top rate of NZ personal tax to match Australia's.
Now that would be a radical step.
Or even bring in a capital gains tax, like the US.
Even more radical.
But looks like we are to have tax cuts, like Reagan and Bush 2. And some big deficits as a result.
THAT should REALLY fix it.
What English is telling these
What English is telling these young university students, is that he is not able to create jobs for young professionals. That NZ is not a place for them to make their fortune. In other words, he's telling them to make their fortune somewhere else. Not that much different from the Philipines or Bangladesh.
Singapore's position is different. There are plenty of high-paying knowledge- economy jobs over there for young professionals.
Rudderless. Disappointing, as usual. It
Rudderless.
Disappointing, as usual. It seems to be a trend. Would it have been much better under Labour. I doubt it. Hence, what choices do we have, or more to the point, what choices do people like Alex and Emma (Int.co) and Anna Hamilton-Manns have in NZ?
There are choices, but our leaders are not leading effectively enough to take them.
Alex, Emma, Anna - have a good flight.
Cheers, Les.
I think the posts here
I think the posts here are actually a bit unfair on English.
All I think he was saying was "Fine, go overseas and experience the world, like kiwis have done for a long time, that's healthy and rewarding, enjoy yourself, get experience, we do want you back, and we will try within the constraints of the political system to make that return more appealing"
and lets face it the reality of MMP is that radical reform will never be possible
I really don't see why people are so scathing of this. I think its pefectly reasonable.
I mean even Aussie with all its opportunities and dynamism still sees many of its young going off and doing the OE
"the reality of MMP is
"the reality of MMP is that radical reform will never be possible"...and so we have a chance in 2011 to begin the process of giving this sick system the heave ho...with no change until 2017.....bleeeeding heck....7 bloody years before there is any chance of the surgery taking place and all the while the cancer is eating away at all of us. Serves us bloody right because we did it to ourselves. Bugger mmp.
I think they have a
I think they have a real plan though and it goes like this. The value of the dollar will ultimately follow the economy's fundamentals. On the way it will be very bumpy, but if we wait long enough it will work out, so .... if we carry on like we have been two things will happen.
1. We won't upset anyone too much. The people on the blogs and the economists only have a few votes so they don't count when you upset them, and we'll get back in.
2. The economy will get really stuffed and the dollar value will drop, and then our exporters will be able to really make some money and haul our asses out of the sling they are in, and we'll be here to say we set it up for this event. Maybe that'll even get us into three terms.
If you are an exporter just settle down in your bunker because soon you will be able to rush out and rebuild the country!
MMP's not the problem, its
MMP's not the problem, its all the ingrained vested interests that resist change. Looking worldwide the problem is global. As many here have pointed out, politicians have to promise more to get elected and once voters of all descriptions get a taste of preferential treatment in the form of subsidies, benefits or tax breaks, they don't want to give them back, even if they know the country cannot afford them. Let someone else make the sacrifice. Sadly it always takes a crisis to convince enough people to give up those accrued benefits. Human nature I'm afraid.
Oldest of Bill's kids is
Oldest of Bill's kids is about 21 I think. Looks like Billy's planning on three terms of pain before he shines a light on Luke, Thomas, Maria, Rory, Bartholomew and Xavier's big bright future.
stevek I agree with you
stevek I agree with you MMP isn't the problem, politicians are. Politicians aren't fast learners listening to the public working together for the best results for the nation, but in stead very much of an ego issue "“ old school.
I don't agree that MMP
I don't agree that MMP is not part of the problem. It is intrinsically tied to the matter of vested interests. Because MMP intrinsicially requires partnerships between parties with often quite different vested interests, compromise and the middle road is the order of the day. Sometimes compromise is good - at other times it leads to policy outcomes that are neither one thing nor the other, and are of marginal efficacy
One of the key reasons the Nats have pulled back on tax reform is because of the influence of the Maori party
I mean even Aussie with
I mean even Aussie with all its opportunities and dynamism still sees many of its young going off and doing the OE
Only 5% of graduates compared with our 25%.
He has admittted we have no show of creating any jobs suitable to employ 25% of our graduates. That's pretty bad.
MattinAuck ..again this isn't caused
MattinAuck
..again this isn't caused by MMP, but the inability of politicians finding a satisfying solution.
Matt in Auck - "Because
Matt in Auck - "Because MMP intrinsicially requires partnerships between parties"
This isn't a problem with MMP, it's a problem with politicians still clinging to the old FPP system where they run the country by majority and do what they like.
None of us vote for a coalition government, but that is what we get. If coalitions were banned it would solve that problem.
However, all the pollies jump up and down and say you can't run the country with a minority government, it takes forever to get laws passed. I say what's wrong with that?
By forming coalitions, they are clinging to the old system of governing with a majority, and everyone that is part of the govt must vote the way they are told, instead of voting on things for their merits.
Yes, less laws would get passed, and yes, they would get voted in or out based on consensus of whether it's a good idea or not, instead of supporting a new law because your party leader says you have to....
Matt in Auck - this
Matt in Auck - this article is well titled regarding lack of ambition.
BE says, " "If you want to run a big oil refinery or be an M&A banker then off you go," which probably belies the fact that he and Nats are 'central planners', just like Labour before them. Except that he probably sees the error in 'Thinking Big' and picking the wrong winner, as has happened in the past. Better, he probably thinks, to stick with what we know and 'centrally plan' to support that, which is what appears to be happening, say with R&D policy, meaning we will continue to have a narrowly dimensioned export mix.
Whereas, if he, Nats, were to implement a flatter, lower, broader tax structure, that would likely change the economy's balance then more useful dimensions would emerge*, and who know they may well indeed produce some 'big' enterprises. That might mean more of the young could return before they are 30 after having paid off their student loan and scraped together a deposit. (* add in the likes of R&D incentives, eg Auz, now at 45% credit for start-ups - and more would likely emerge.)
However, to do the above means challenging the status quo, it means powerful vested interests would lose some wealth and lose some control - alternatives to their dimensions of the economy would emerge. Hence the critique in the title, which I think is spot on.
Cheers, Les.
Strange how fixated one can
Strange how fixated one can become...
Off I trolled to another site.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL201002/S00092.htm
Affects all the tax reform assumptions I've read here.
Makes me wonder if simply getting tax banding right is the real answer.
wff could then slowly wither ('cos RT is always saying how bad it is).
NOTE to me: Must read more widely....
"Kiwis are like salmon" is
"Kiwis are like salmon" is a phrase I made up, they always return home to spawn.
I am a POM living in Kiwiland, I was in London earning a fortune until I met a beautiful Kiwi who lured me back. I was told I would earn a third in my career field by recruiters. I was in Auckland stressing until I moved to sunny Tauranga.
Look Guys NZ is a great place, I couldnt bring up the kids commuting for 1.75 hours each way like my brother...but it is very dull on the entertainment front. There is far less alcohol consumed here per capita than our peers but it is seen as a demon. It's pretty but dull.
Bill is right, go to London have a party, make some dough and pop back to NZ to pop out the kids, thats probably why the houses are so expensive.
I'm currently in London. I
I'm currently in London. I work for one of the largest global private equity companies which is based in New York with offices everywhere. I work in the commercial real estate division which owns properties all over Europe. I am in charge of all the corporate finances with a small team and report directly to the GM. I am 32, and have 5th form, and I half did a dip bus at AUT back when I was 19. I had one main job before leaving NZ (when I was 26) where I couldn't see myself going anywhere career wise due to my lack of educaiton and no employeer wanting to give me a go. I came to London and contracted in various roles for companies that gave me a go. I have worked my a** off to get where I am. I wonder if it would have been easier if I had of learnt everything at Uni first? Maybe yes for most people but for me no. I was learning more in my part time job while at AUT as an accounts assistant than the course and from then on found my way being on the job. My kiwi mates here in the UK are in the same boat, little education and lots of get up and go and are doing very well in there choosen career's, Brand new Audi / BMW company cars.... two have there own companies here too. Do we all want to return home and buy a villa and have kids and a boat, yes. We have saved up the pounds for the house deposit, but don't want to transfer it as the GBP due to the low FX. And we do talk about over pints and we have the same question and that is will anyone employ us and give us a go back in NZ like here in the UK?
Maybe we should be concentrating
Maybe we should be concentrating on GNH (Gross National Happiness) like in Bhutan. This has been steadily declining I think!. We can never catch up to Australia in terms of per capita income (unless we find some big oil fields).
DanC - stay put mate
DanC - stay put mate - there's nothing happening here!
Im turning 30 this year,
Im turning 30 this year, have a degree (land surveying), live in New Zealand and was made redundant last month. Glad i haven't started the family thing yet like Bill English suggests i'd do at my age else my situation and options now would be much more tricky!
I'm flying to OZ in 10days, job all lined up, flights paid for, accomodation sorted once get there. I'll be saving at least double what i was saving here weekly and i decided to take the job paying less in a big city, opposed to the job offer in a remote area paying double again what i was earing here.... which i might try later on
I do hope i'd be able to move back to NZ eventually but at the moment in my area of work, Australia is the only sensible choice
They were wrong...... Kiwis can
They were wrong...... Kiwis can fly.
DanC - I agree with TBM (????).
I would bet the Bill
I would bet the Bill English CV does not include any OE.
I would support any move to having a significant OE behind candidate who would aspire to be a MP.
Thanks Jon and Bill. Thanks
Thanks Jon and Bill. Thanks for looking after your old wealthy buddies and doing nothing for Gen X & Y. At least Bill was honest yesterday in saying your better off leaving.
@Logical Dave, I would support
@Logical Dave, I would support them having a minimum time in real work, but more importantly - a minimum IQ! That would help a whole lot more. We'd have to phase this in gradually, because this would see more than 50% of our MPs made redundant I reckon. Then if we kick out the ones with vested/conflicted interests - minarchy by stealth, hey presto!
Hi Bernard, Interesting article in
Hi Bernard,
Interesting article in the herald today
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/property/news/article.cfm?c_id=8&objectid=1062...
Without getting bogged down in the detailed study, rents climbed from an average of 21 per cent below the mortgage costs on a similar property to 27 per cent above the average monthly mortgage costs within six months of the changes in policy
You told us rents were controlled by people's incomes not landlord expenses??????
KWJ - your 18th, 10.19am,
KWJ - your 18th, 10.19am, why are we not surprised:
"The tax cuts will make a small elite much, much better off "“ while, at best, the various compensation packages will leave the rest of us no worse off. That's not balance "“ that's a transfer of wealth, and it is a mechanism for increased income inequality."
"The real pup that we are being sold is the hoary old argument based on trickle-down economics, and the benefits that allegedly accrue to the rest of us from giving a tiny elite an even bigger slice of the income pie. Well, trickle down arguments were discredited way back in the 1980s."
But this is what happens when you are clutching at straws, rather than grasping nettles, because no way in hell would you challenge the status quo - real simple. See my 18th 9.45pm. It's about the 'subsidy that got away' (or was allowed to escape .... ) and a series of NZ governments' amusing interpretation of the Neo.lib approach, and it was, and would be no different under Labour. Didn't do stuff all about it when they had the chance did they? They simple addressed a symptom instead of getting into the causes, eg WFF, which as 'electoral opium', suited them down to the ground. Bet they are kicking themselves they screwed with our light bulbs and shower-heads - otherwise who knows what they could have achieved. Perhaps dictating what colour socks we should wear.
Cheers, Les.
Walter..........Young professionals should sack the
Walter..........Young professionals should sack the government including surroundings..
Tch.tch.. such talk is treason....and such ambition should be made of stern stuff indeed.
It was a bland performance right out of the bland blender....
Rule..1 don't piss anyone off wittingly
Rule 2.. don't commit to anything
Rule 3..use the opportunity to send a vague policy warning and have the minders gauge the vibe.
Rule 4..Always quote a higher authority needing to ratify or clarify anything you may have said.
Rule 5...Look concerned ( or overworked) whenever possible in response to Questions from the mob untill the question is absorbed and understood. If the question is lighthearted allow unfreezing of the concerned muscles. If humour was missed use the overworked apologetic look.If the question is too hard or not understood remained concerned.
Rule 6. No WFF Jokes period. ......Thompson may be in the room.!
And that's about it ya bootscrapings.
Young people don't vote national
Young people don't vote national anyway, why would he want them to stick around?
Paul - how anyone can
Paul - how anyone can attempt to draw meaningful conclusions on rental responses to depreciation changes based on what happened during the peak of the Irish bubble economy is beyond me. Back then in Ireland punters only needed to dig a pond in the back yard and call it a swimming pool for their properties to immediately be revalued by E100,000 or their rental income to double in response.
As a consequence the article is laughable - frankly if thats all the deductive power our university academics are capable of summoning up then their salaries are the first which should be cut to save government money.
For gods sake people give
For gods sake people give Bill a break. What he is saying is we dont have the business opportunities to suppoort young grads so why provide all the incentive for these people to stay if there is nothing for them to do. The people we need to provide incentive for are those with experience and possibly a bit of equity to return, strart a business and provide more opportunity for our grads to stay in the long term! What is so deeply wrong with that? Every kiwi wants to do an OE, gain that life experience and come back a better skilled more worldly person - the aim should not be to stop that desire it should be to ensure they want to and have incentive to return!
Funny that Andy H -
Funny that Andy H - if the article was about the property bubble bursting then I'm sure you'd be the first to post it on here advising us all to 'learn' from Ireland's mistakes with a view to what 'must' happen here eventually!
For additional factors to consider
For additional factors to consider with respect to Ireland.
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Price-History
If the dude that wrote that NZ Herald article has taken Statistics he should review the concept of a "Confound".
At the very least he should have pointed to some information that backs up his assertion re the relevance of depreciation with respect to the impact on Ireland's property and rental market.
Paul - I hear the
Paul - I hear the Auckland Business School are recruiting - get yourself over there, I reckon with your one-eyed views on property you should be head of department in no time..........
Quite so Gibber - how the article was even signed off by the accepting editor is way beyond me. Maybe the Herald is a tool of the landlord class? :)
@Les Glad the link wasn't
@Les
Glad the link wasn't wasted.
Didn't make me very happy though (I swing wildly between pint half empty/ pint half full - I do wish DanC hadn't mentioned the word Pint)
"clutching at straws, rather than grasping nettles, because no way in hell would you challenge the status quo"
I'm still trying to work out what the status quo is (down, down Nicholas A). So I'm not the brightest.
"otherwise who knows what they could have achieved".....
Curiously, this ties in with Logical Daves comment this morning.
It seems to be that if you choose a career in politics, the OE comes later rather than earlier. You practice here first.
Paul - see #1, here:
Paul - see #1, here:
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2010/02/15/top-10-at-10-la...
"The people we need to provide incentive for..."
How can that incentive provided for returnee? What about those that stay? Those already here?
Maybe some government funded property investment seminars?
Agree with you Paul.Give Bill
Agree with you Paul.Give Bill a chance.My advice to our family was "go overseas and see the world" once they had graduated.Our generation unlike our parents who went OE to war,didn`t generally OE but through generational hangover from depression and war,put our heads down ,worked hard,raised families and worked for chances for our families which included OE.It so happens that OE brought our children home to have families ,but with a generally better world view,still on balance believing that NZ was a great place to live.Guess JK is a comparable example.Thought Bill bought a down to earth reply to a student who is at the beginning of his life expecting to have his bottom wiped because of his/her`s up to now experience has been doing just that.
KWJ - yep, methinks DanC
KWJ - yep, methinks DanC is just plain cruel talking about Engalnd and pints, ah well. Six months to go till my rehydration treatment up there. I wonder if I'll improve on my record for how quick I can get two pints of TEA down after leaving Heathrow. Oh well, Tui and DB till then I suppose.
Status quo - leave the economy as unbalanced as it is, as it suits those who live by inflation and enjoy 'the subsidy that got away' (nil effective asset/property/capital gain taxation.)
Who knows what they could have achieved - don't terrify me please:
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2010/02/15/labours-david-c...
Cheers, Les.
No matter who has the
No matter who has the purse strings, the issue cant be fixed over night...It is an accumulation of policies and events over the last 40yrs
So what English is saying to to the students is good old fashioned practical advice...
And is this not what damn near all of you are saying is the current situation is anyway, and exactly what you would have said if fronted up and was asked those questions?
11 out of 10 for his straight up honesty
I think another thing he is looking at is what can we get out of the situation...
OK they are going to head off shore, get international experience on top of their education....eventually many will come back.....with experience far greater than could be ever got in this country at the present time....
Thats an advantage to the future, not a disadvantage.
Think it thru, get your heads out of the sand guys.
I'm pretty sure we'll all
I'm pretty sure we'll all give Bill a chance, Alex. Hopefully he, or his staff, read blogs like this and take the temperature of a part of the electorate. We're doing our bit! I hope, for all the reasons that you put in your post, that in May, he does his.
# Kate Says: February 18th,
# Kate Says:
February 18th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Even more unbelievable.
So, if you don't want to have a family "“ leave forever after you get your degree?
Exactly, That's the only people they want here, they want you 'dependent',' easy to control' and 'stuck'. They want you too just breed new tax payers and consume and that is all.
Just pathetic! No productivity, no innovation, just a country full of 'sheeple'
Les Rudd Says: February 18th,
Les Rudd Says:
February 18th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Rudderless.
"Disappointing, as usual. It seems to be a trend. Would it have been much better under Labour. I doubt it. Hence, what choices do we have?"
Time for that REAL 3rd party option Les you think? I'm in!
“The tax cuts will make
"The tax cuts will make a small elite much, much better off "“ while, at best, the various compensation packages will leave the rest of us no worse off. That's not balance "“ that's a transfer of wealth, and it is a mechanism for increased income inequality."
Tax is a zero sum game, balance cannot be achieved by compensating for losses - removing advantages, moving the tax burden to consumption, broadening the tax base is all about lowering the level of tax as the economy grows - growth is the issue not tax. Tax is a means to that end. We we are being offered is a zero sum game with no growth target. A zero sum game just like currency trading.
On the topic of better policy this is worth a look.
http://www.johnwalley.co.nz/71-imf_says_more_to_growth_than_inflation_ta...
Give him a break..? Give
Give him a break..? Give him a chance...? He is about to gut the lower middle to upper poor like a pig and you wanna give him a chance....? Are you two taking the piss or what...?
He and Key know Labour won't reverse GST from 15% so it was the gutless option that was voter proof....
As to compensation for ther rise that is utter crap/bulls$%t and they bloody know it...it won't bear scrutiny no matter how much spin they put on it via thier little paid up talking heads at TV1/3 etc....
And then the media will act all surprised to see the people hanging by thier fingernails dropping into the WFF abyss and finding thier true place in the social vacuum...just as the potential new boss is about to be sworn in.
Wake up..!! Billy Bob accept you won't be returned (unless you get that MMP Ref wording just riiiight) and sieze the opportunity to Reform WFF policy and Taxation reform will follow............And follow through with property tax reforms.... like you said you would untill John Boy had an untimely visit from Banky Boy to say that boat just wont float ya doubledealing / spineless/deadpool supporters.
Gimme a break ..? Gimme a chance..? I'd like a chance to f%$#ing break something that's for sure...!!
Oh and by the way kids bugger off..! go on.. there's nothing to see here move along.
Paul Says: February 19th, 2010
Paul Says:
February 19th, 2010 at 9:15 am
"For gods sake people give Bill a break. What he is saying is we dont have the business opportunities to suppoort young grads so why provide all the incentive for these people to stay if there is nothing for them to do"
So Paul, clearly we are not a 'first world' country at all if that is the case?
Finland has nearly the same population yet strives in business! Why can't we Paul? Could it be policies like WFF? the DPB which encourages even teens to have children and never actually work? COULD it be our 'benefit mentality'that NO government has the balls to remove or tinker with?
Yes, yes i believe so. No vision, no hope, just breed. How many kids does 'visionary' Bill have again? and how about that family trust of his and his investment property portfolio?
"As to compensation for ther
"As to compensation for ther rise that is utter crap/bulls$%t and they bloody know it"¦it won't bear scrutiny no matter how much spin they put on it via thier little paid up talking heads at TV1/3 etc"¦."
Yeah, just take into account the new GST amount on your Rates, ACC, and car reg and try to recount for that in the tax changes? Can't be done!
'Balance' the tax system my a.s
Justice - if we formed
Justice - if we formed a new political party, maybe Christov could be 'Defence Spokesperson' or rather, 'Attack Spokesperson'!!
3rd party, yeah, if one or some MPs split out of the major two sides, otherwise, just a waste of time, IMO.
Cheers, Les.
Hey Bernard............ why no line
Hey Bernard............ why no line of inquiry by yourselves as to the gutless GST voter proof option.......?
Why no probe.... is everybody sittin around waiting to see whats actually gonna happen..?...............This is happening..!!
Reason 1. it's easy
Reason2. it's voter proof
3 it is almost certainly irrevocable
4 it will have little effect on the high income end who as it happens will recieve the bulk of benifit in compensation under the guise of creating more $ for them to invest in buisness.
5 it meets the criteria of the Political Mexican Standoff........ nobody pulls a gun nobody gets hurt...just scared..!
Well that is just crap...dung ...puckey..there are always casualties and they know it... at least have the guts to front and say to them collateral damage is inevitable and we chose you cause it's better than choosing us... ya bootscrapings.
Ask.... is it good for the economy (gumnut not included)
does it sound attractive to middle class immigrants
are there not more pressing tax reform issues needing to be addressed.
Which makes you feel better Billy Bob keeping the boot on em or puttin it in em...?
Les /Justice.........Apologies but this has
Les /Justice.........Apologies but this has got me ornery....disillusioned voter..? (they like that it makes you harmless)
Vote for the alternative ..? Id rather chew my own testicales off than fund WFF into the Gumnut Fonterra...
Vote for the minors....even though I think Ron Marks is an honorable man... he's in a silly party wot got nobbled on account of Winnies ego........and I may as well try peeing into a 40 knot and stay dry at the same time.
No ..no ..lads Presidente' is the way to go you'll know what you are getting.....cronyism..legal theft institutionalization..corruption...slurping the trough and a pat o my dog Lassie..... Pretty much what you've got now except I told you so...excluding Lassie..mark mark it's ok boy ..it's ok
Bernard...? Bernard.....I'm waiting Bernard.... I
Bernard...? Bernard.....I'm waiting Bernard.... I know your team at int. has the numbercrunching expertise to expose the GST/ compensation thereof .theory for what it is ...for what it will actually do... for who will actually have thier living standard reduced........
God don't tell me it's too sensitive for you now......?
Don't tell me you wanna wait and see.......?
THIS IS HAPPENING...f$%k what the hell is wrong here..? is it a fait accompli syndrome..?
I think Big B is
I think Big B is in Welly today, Christov.
Thanks Nicholas....... it'll stop me
Thanks Nicholas....... it'll stop me smashing the keyboard anyways
but you there in the backroom... yes you I.T. guy get Big B on the phone and tell him to commence the probe...!!
One thing I've learned about Nats they hate a good probe it makes em squeamish when you make em look at the blood on the floor.
More on the IMF report:
More on the IMF report: its about growth stupid.
The essence of the paper says there is more to the world than inflation targeting via the policy rate - pity that NZ lead the world in the purest embrace of that single minded simplistic position, with barely any moderation from the manifest adverse impacts on the real economy.
Maybe things will now start to change, I hope the Labour party get some traction from the "no more consensus on monetary policy" position they adopted late last year.
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/spn/2010/spn1003.pdf
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2010/INT021210A.htm
‘benefit mentality’that NO government has
"˜benefit mentality'that NO government has the balls to remove or tinker with?
the majority of voters have become beholden to the government for their income eg WFF. Why would the government change this? They have a captive audience.
Christov - 2.5% increase in just tinkering s. the government needs to grow some balls and make some real change.
Andy M.. Agreed as I've
Andy M.. Agreed as I've been screaming..... The political ideaology behind WFF is completely out of step with the tax burdened voter.
Sometime in order for balls to grow you need to kick them first...
It infuriates me that we
It infuriates me that we are a nation of working poor, the majority of whom rely on the government for getting their income up to a living level.
Do the majority of NZs have any desire or aspiration to lift themselves out of being the working poor? I have to answer no, they are quite happy getting free money especially if they brought a house (or 2) before 2002. Woe betide any government they threatens to take it all away. It is those who are trying to buy housing currently on NZ working poor wages that are stuffed, because unless you want to live a crappy house in a probably dangerous area you have no show.
The fact that only Turkey, Mexico and a couple of former eastern bloc countries are below us in the OECD should be sending alarm bells ringing at the Beehive. It is disgusting that they don't care and that they are doing nothing to change it.
Both major parties are no different in that regard.
Nothing either party has done or promised to do will stop our rush to the bottom of the OECD, which won't be long given our slide over the last 35 years.
We are a nation of Working Poor, Landlords and Farmers. Not a recipe for a 1st world country in my books.
Id be interested to know
Id be interested to know what WFF costs per annum and how big a tax cut it would fund if scrapped.
Its a shocker....ive lost track of how many times staff have only agreed to do overtime up to a certain no of hours because "if I do any more I start losing my working for families".
Stunning link.. http://www.johnwalley.co.nz /71-imf_says_more_to
Stunning link..
http://www.johnwalley.co.nz
/71-imf_says_more_to_growth_than_inflation_targeting.aspx
Thanks John, mea culpa indeed.
Re-wording this document into a straight-forward 'common sense' domestic analogy
would make it easier. Trouble is, we would all turn around and say - 'Why the hell did they think like this in the first place'!
Sorry for quoting it here, persist though, re-word it even!!!!!!
Andrew I think AndyM worked
Andrew I think AndyM worked it out a few weeks ago that WFF cost NZ $2.2 Billlion per annum
Thanks 28. I reckon ditching
Thanks 28. I reckon ditching WFF and handing the lot back as a tax cut would be a good start. At least we could dispense with the bureaucrats required to administer WFF.
wassup with 10 at 10
wassup with 10 at 10 ???
KW John...... Cheers for the
KW John...... Cheers for the infill....the numbers can be ordered and arrived at via many complex computations........ the equasions are always..post ideaology.
It's the very essence of the politicial social ideaology that needs reform and that is "what is right to a level of acceptability to those who are the largest contributors" vs "what is wrong to the level of unacceptability to those who are the largest contributors"
I am not against welfare in the sense of health and education ...nor am I against welfare for those most in need of assistance though misfortune and the like from time to time.
I am against an entrenched ideaology that x ammount of every dollar earned must be put aside to service the ever growing number of recipients who meet the criteria of the WFF suckhole .
It is the policy of the suckhole that needs modification(or destruction) not just to continue shuffling the numbers to fit the policy.
Andrew, I think you got
Andrew, I think you got it wrong there. There is no limit in max. number of hours worked to qualify for WFF. There is only limit in min. working hours, so people are encourage to work more, not less. People without job or part-timers do not qualify.
Your staff are telling you porkies
I did the OE, earnt
I did the OE, earnt my money, moved back for the better lifestyle about 3 years ago
I believe if a career was my driving force I wouldnt be back in this country and if i was asked by one of my mates living and earning in the UK if now was a good time to come back i would so no.
Bugger all jobs, houses are too expensive (still got my money in term deposit) and we have a Government with no balls.
It dont look all that good but i am sort of stuck now (baby daugther), i guess i am happy, just frustrated with a property based economy.
alenn its not the hours
alenn its not the hours its the gross income earned. As income goes up WFF starts to abate.
Saddness............ days end and no
Saddness............ days end and no response from Bernado' in Wellington with his new friends........... gone to the other side....... oh oh Bernado' why hath thou forsaken the cause..?
Free Beer and a trip on the doughnut.. I am a dumb ba@%$ard .
@Christov Free Beer.... Sorry, the
@Christov
Free Beer....
Sorry, the only reason I put the infill up was it made it clearer (to me) that the 'ideological rulebook' that seemed to be popular had been changed, new chapters added.
Agree with you on the 'after the event' analysis, but I bet everyone is scuttling around trying how to make policy fit the new 'rules'.
I think that WFF fits within the first 'automatic stabiliser' criteria, and guess what, now we're gonna try the newly defined second 'automatic stabiliser'.
WFF will be withered by this second approach - nothing quick, but a parallel system slowly chipped at by tax reform.
Now, where is that frog in water that Nicholas Arrand mentioned, and is the bunsen alight yet?
This is all small-minded blinkered
This is all small-minded blinkered and irrelevant nonsense which will make little if any difference.
The difference in intellect and honesty between the current generation of politicians and this is just astounding:
Bernard Lietaer talking at TEDxBerlin on 30 Nov 2009
http://www.neuralnetwriter.cylo42.com/node/2630
Anyone who wishes to understand the real issues and solutions really should watch that.
It's Friday ( isn't it?)
It's Friday ( isn't it?) KWJ. Time to reflect on a week of hard posting, and hand The Frog over to the weekend shift. Off to find a pint of Davy's Old Whallop ( Ooops. Better be careful with that last word. I kind of upset Kimble by using it during the week, prefixed by Cods !). See yuz Monday.
Davy’s Old Whallop...... draught???? Full
Davy's Old Whallop...... draught????
Full size pint glass???
Any chance of ESB???
@Steve N
Bit harsh, we try, however ignorantly! Will watch Bernard Lietaer (research first).
Ta.
ta Steve N... I'll give
ta Steve N... I'll give it a watch over the wkend....
I agree with others who
I agree with others who criticised that piece by the University guy. He provided no references to his outrageous and qute unbelievable claims
Andrew, does not make sense.
Andrew, does not make sense. You are always going to earn more by working more hours. If someone earn say extra $100/week, will lose some $15/week in wff, so still better off by $85/week.
Alen at some income levels
Alen at some income levels the abatement leads to an effective marginal tax rate in excess of 50%....enough reason to rather be at home than at work for some people....and thats the point Andrews trying to make - it can be a disincentive for some people to work.
Wave them all off, less
Wave them all off, less land claim issues then when is transnational corporate sponsors want to strip mine the place.
Sorry, have another go at
Sorry, have another go at that, bit fried after 14 hours at the hampster wheel;
wave them all off, less land claim issues when his private banker subsidiary multinational corporate sponsors want to strip mine the place.
Not so convinced Rex. What
Not so convinced Rex. What would that income level be?
alen---have a crack at this
alen---have a crack at this chart ----maybe what your looking at/for
cheers pw
http://www.workingforfamilies.govt.nz/tax-credits/payment-table.html#fam...