HOT TOPICS:   Election 2014  |    NZ$   |  Double shot interviews                                         RESOURCES:    Economic calendar   |  Cashback incentives

The comment stream

Recent comments

Reader poll

What do you view as the biggest election campaign issue?

Choices

Join the Interest community to be a registered commenter so you can:
- Edit your comments
- Avoid the CAPTCHA
- Vote on comments
Register Here

Already registered? log back in here ..

Forgotten your password? No problem! Click here

Serious Fraud Office investigating Hubbard's Aorangi; Govt puts Hubbard interests into statutory management

Posted in News Updated

Allan Hubbard has attacked the government's decision to put him into statutory management, saying no one in New Zealand has ever acted more honourably than him.

The government announced on Sunday it had put Aorangi Securities, seven charitable trusts and both Allan Hubbard and Margaret Hubbard into statutory management.

This came after the Companies Office referred a number of matters relating to Aorangi Securities for investigation by the Serious Fraud Office for potential breaches of the Crimes Act. The investigation follows a complaint by an Aorangi investor who had not received a prospectus.

The Companies Office found that NZ$98 million in funds lent to Aorangi by 407 Otago and Canterbury investors had been lent on either directly or indirectly to trusts and interests associated with the Hubbards, contrary to instructions that they be lent as first mortgages secured by property.

(Updated to include Treasury comment on guarantee remaining in place for South Canterbury Finance (SCF) investors, SCF CEO Sandy Maier saying it remained business as usual at SCF, SCF pulling its prospectus, Allan Hubbard attacking 'misguided' government actions in statement, Standard and Poor's discussing its stance, South Canterbury Finance preference shares falling 2.7% in early trade, Aorangi investor speaking out, and details about Aorangi in the attached Media fact sheet). 

Commerce Minister Simon Power said in a statement that Hubbard's South Canterbury Finance was not part of the statutory management order. Power said other solutions rather than statutory management were considered, including a receivership or liquidation of Hubbard's assets. A spokesman said it was eventually decided the unusual move to a statutory management was necessary to achieve a comprehensive understanding of the situation. This is the first statutory management since 2003. The previous largest one was the DFC in the late 1980s, which was managed by current South Canterbury CEO Sandy Maier.

Treasury said all South Canterbury Finance depositors remained covered by the government's deposit guarantee.

“The announcement today that Aorangi Securities Limited, Mr Allan James Hubbard, Mrs Margaret Jane Hubbard and various charitable trusts have been placed into statutory management does not apply to South Canterbury Finance,” Treasury Director of Financial Operations Brian McCulloch said.

“The Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme is not affected by today’s action,” Dr McCulloch said.

'Business as Usual'

Meanwhile, South Canterbury Finance Chief Executive Sandy Maier told interest.co.nz the announcement on Sunday was a surprise, but that South Canterbury did not have any exposure to the entities put into statutory management and it was business as usual for the Timaru-based finance company.

Hubbard resigned from the chairman's role and the board completely several weeks ago and had been trying to sell some or all of his stake in South Canterbury to another player with the ability to inject significant new capital, Maier said. Hubbard retains the role of President for Life at South Canterbury, but did not attend any of the investor roadshows held last week.

The statutory manager would now be in control of Hubbard's stake in South Canterbury and be looking to maximise its value, just as Hubbard was trying to to do, Maier said. 

He said Hubbard had not been involved in the business on a day to day basis for weeks and investors were aware that Hubbard's personal interests were separate from South Canterbury Finance, where over 30,000 investors have over NZ$1.2 billion invested.

Maier cautioned against jumping to conclusions too early.

"There's going to be a degree of shock and disbelief and we should all be careful not to rush to judgement," Maier said.

South Canterbury Finance withdrew its prospectus from its website on Monday morning. It must rewrite its prospectus whenever a material event has occurred. South Canterbury cannot raise new funds or renew investments when its prospectus is not 'live'.

Aorangi details

Power also issued a media fact sheet on Aorangi Securities that said Aorangi was a company incorporated in 1974 by Hubbard and his wife Margaret that had lent NZ$134 million from deposits of NZ$98 million from 407 investors in Canterbury and Otago.

The Securities Commission received a complaint from an investor on February 28 this year who said he had not received an investment statement or prospectus.

"Aorangi appears to have originally been a nominee company or contributory mortgage company but seems to have since transformed into a finance company, raising funds from investors and on-lending those funds to borrowers," the fact sheet said.

It included a diagram showing how some of the funds had been lent on an unsecured basis to Allan Hubbard and Margaret Hubbard and then put in investments in their own right or through related entities such as the charitable trusts.

"Many of the loans made by Aorangi are inadequately documented by way of term loan contracts or loan agreements, appear to be unsecured either by way of a registered mortgage over property or a General Security Agreement over the assets of a company, appear to be made contrary to instructions given by investors that their deposits be lent under the security of a first registered mortgage."

Allan Hubbard released a statement through the Timaru Herald early on Monday morning attacking the government's actions as misguided. The full statement is reproduced below.

"I am sorry that this action was taken by a government offical with little consultation with myself and can only conclude that the government official has been misguided in his action," Hubbard said.

"I don't believe in the history of New Zealand that any person has acted more honourably than myself," he said.

Meanwhile, South Canterbury Finance's preference shares traded only lightly on the NZX, falling 2.7%. Standard and Poor's said it was considering its rating for South Canterbury Finance, which is currently at B+ with a 'credit watch developing' status. S&P cut the rating on May 28.

Aorangi investor speaks

Meanwhile a investor in Aorangi Securities from Waimate in South Canterbury told Interest.co.nz he had invested NZ$200,000 in Aorangi and had never seen a prospectus. The investor, who declined to be identified, expected the investments were secured as he had delegated the oversight of the investment to his accountants at Hubbard Churcher in Waimate.

"I was told it was in a trust fund," the investor said. The funds were initially paying 9%, but the interest rate had been reduced recently to 8%. He was being paid quarterly and expected the next payment after June 30.

When asked about his initial reaction to the news of the SFO investigation and the statutory management decision, the investor said: "I thought heck!. The dirt's hit the fan now."

"If he goes down then jeepers, it will be a big financial blow to everyone around here," he said.

Here is the full statement below from Power.

Aorangi Securities, charitable trusts, and Hubbards placed into statutory management

The Government has today placed Aorangi Securities, seven charitable trusts, and Mr Allan Hubbard and Mrs Margaret Hubbard into statutory management, Commerce Minister Simon Power announced.

South Canterbury Finance, with which Mr Hubbard is closely associated, is not part of the statutory management order. The charitable trusts are: Te Tua Charitable Trust, Otipua Charitable Trust, Oxford Charitable Trust, Regent Charitable Trust, Morgan Charitable Trust, Benmore Charitable Trust, Wai-iti Charitable Trust.

"My action follows a recommendation from the Securities Commission, and I advised a meeting of the Acting Prime Minister and senior Cabinet Ministers of my decision at 2pm today," Mr Power said. "The Registrar of Companies has referred a number of matters relating to Aorangi Securities Ltd to the Serious Fraud Office to investigate potential breaches of the Crimes Act

"The recommendation of statutory management was the result of careful consideration by the Securities Commission.

"The decision to place these entities under statutory management is being taken pursuant to section 38 of the Corporations (Investigation and Management) Act 1989, and is effective from 3.30pm today. "It follows a process that took a number of weeks and involved the Companies Office and Mr Hubbard. "The main objectives are to prevent fraud and reckless company management, to protect investors and to enable the orderly administration of a company's affairs.

"The Commission considered other remedies. "But given the circumstances of this case, that Mr and Mrs Hubbard are involved in the affairs of the entities as depositors, managers, and borrowers, and that loans to related parties have not been properly secured and documented, it was felt statutory management was the only option.

"The Commission was satisfied on reasonable grounds that Mr and Mrs Hubbard are so closely connected with the business and affairs of the entities that the statutory managers would be unable to effectively exercise the powers conferred by the Corporations (Investigation and Management) Act 1989 unless they are also declared subject to statutory management."

The Government has appointed Trevor Thornton and Richard Simpson of Grant Thornton as statutory managers.

"These decisions have been taken to protect investors, and the matters are now in the hands of the statutory managers and the Serious Fraud Office. "I am advised that the statutory manager will be in touch with investors shortly."

Here is the full statement below from Allan Hubbard through the Timaru Herald.

 "I am writing to you following recent action by a Government department.

"I have operated Aorangi Security as a mortgage company for over 30 years and during that entire period interest has been paid quarterly and the clients have suffered no loss of capital and have a prompt return of capital. "The current position of Aoarangi is approximately as follows:

"Mortgage and loans owing to Aoarangi: $126 million

"Cash at bank: $2 million.

"This adds to $128 million.

"Client deposits $88 million which means a surplus of $40 million.

"The $40 million surplus belongs to myself and family and all our equity has been subordinated to client interest, ie, the Hubbard family stands any loss before clients do.

"The Crown seems to believe that your capital is at risk under my management and have appointed a statutory manager whose job is to realise all the loans and repay you your capital. This will take time as it is not possible for borrowers to repay loans at short notice.

"There are sufficient funds on hand to pay interest due at June 30.

"If for any reason you do not receive your capital back in full and provided it is within my resources I will meet any shortfall. "I extend my personal apology for what has happened.

"I am sorry that this action was taken by a government official with little consultation with myself and can only conclude that the government official has been misguided in his action.

"In the past month I have been working on finding a solution to South Canterbury Finance affairs and hope to arrange an agreement with an overseas company, subject to confirmation by June 30 to inject a large amount of capital which would place South Canterbury Finance in a secure position for the future.

"As you will have read in the media in February last I introduced $150 million of assets into South Canterbury Finance to ensure that there was an equity for preference shareholders and that they suffered no loss.

"I don't believe in the history of New Zealand that any person has acted more honourably than myself."

We welcome your help to improve our coverage of this issue. Any examples or experiences to relate? Any links to other news, data or research to shed more light on this? Any insight or views on what might happen next or what should happen next? Any errors to correct?

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment in the box on the right or click on the "'Register" link at the bottom of the comments.

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current Comment policy is here.

166 Comments

How terribly sad, after a

How terribly sad, after a lifetime of work, 95% of it apparently successful.

And yet...all the praise for

And yet...all the praise for Hubbard is based upon the word of Hubbard.

... and the word of Chris

... and the word of Chris Lee.

Perhaps the SFO could also

Perhaps the SFO could also devote a bit more time to what went on at Hanover with loans to related parties and sham "third party" borrowers ?

They have had so much to work

They have had so much to work though, and only employ a few people, so I assume they will eventually get around to it. I just can't understand why they can't employ more staff. Our court systems in particular must be one of the slowest in the western world. They should have night courts to work through the backlogs.

Crikey... hard to believe

Crikey... hard to believe this is how it ends for Hubbard - in disgrace... My take is that he was taking money through Aorangi to buy loans from SCF to prop it up...

What a disaster...

And what's this?? The regulators actually acting???

WTF??!?!?

do think so - hard to know

do think so - hard to know but appears to be unrelated. NZ's potential Bernie!

I suspect we are about to see

I suspect we are about to see the mother of all wormcans about to be opened.

i fear you are right. Where

i fear you are right. Where are the ethics in business today?

yup has anyone actually tried

yup

has anyone actually tried to put the empire together - to see what is related to what

Yes, tried to do this a year

Yes, tried to do this a year or two back. Gave up very quickly. Biggest tangle you've ever seen. It'll stay a tangle until both of them are dead, and will take a lot of work to remove the knots after that.

Hmmm 400 investors with $134m

Hmmm 400 investors with $134m invested in Aorangi. These must be high net worth individuals as that works out on average at around $335,000 each.

I don't think they can possibly be covered by the government guarantee as this entity is seperate to SCF.

Crikey one would hate to think he has been doing a Madoff........

I'd imagine that it wouldn't

I'd imagine that it wouldn't have been him, personally, doing the paperwork.
"Here, Al. It's complicated. But she'll be right. Just sign here"
Just a thought. But it will be eye opening to see the details of ".. loans to related parties have not been properly secured and documented..."

A quick caution to everyone

A quick caution to everyone before comparing this case with others here or overseas.

We don't know what has gone on here. Best not to speculate until we have seen what the SFO finds

cheers
Bernard

Where's the fun in that?!

Where's the fun in that?!

OK Bernard - it does look

OK Bernard - it does look though as someone may have mad(e)off with all the cash though..........

The puff piece in the NBR on

The puff piece in the NBR on Friday might have tipped off our ever vigilant Diplock. All the rot about Hubbard putting money and assets into his charitable trusts stunk to high heaven.

Serves the NBR right for

Serves the NBR right for putting that fawning pile of crap on their front page...

can you trust anyone these

can you trust anyone these days?

he may just be a sick old

he may just be a sick old man, and this is the best way to manage his complex range of activities quickly

Whist the serious SFO are at

Whist the serious SFO are at it. The Hanover/ Allied saga also requires the can of worms exposed. However I am sure Hotchin is assessing his options and looking at overseas ports to base himself with soft govt policies and new investors looking to be fleeced.

A check of Companies Office

A check of Companies Office site shows this company has never issued a prospectus. So must have relied on "not making offer to the public" exemption.
Historically directors seem to have been Hubbard and some of his accounting partners - but the partners resigned one by one over 4 or 5 years; in 2009 when Directors were down to just Alan, wife Margaret was appointed a Director. [Constitution may have required at least 2 directors.]
Presumably an important issue will be what "offer otherwise than to members of the public" in context of Securities Act means.
On figures, loans (134m) are much greater than deposits taken from investors (98m)- so what has funded the other 36 million?
Since no prospectus, no financial statements need to be filed either. So we are in the dark.
This company seems quite separate from South Canterbury Finance at first blush.
But the fact the Hubbards personally have come under control of the statutory manager much surely complicate the resolution of SCF - raises doubt as to whether there is actually any real investor looking into injecting into Southbury/South Canterbury.

"But given the circumstances

"But given the circumstances of this case, that Mr and Mrs Hubbard are involved in the affairs of the entities as depositors, managers, and borrowers, and that loans to related parties have not been properly secured and documented, it was felt statutory management was the only option"

*sigh* Covered by Government

*sigh*

Covered by Government Guarantee. Leaky apartment buildings slapped together by dodgy developers underwritten by the taxpayer. Is there anything I'm not on the hook for?

Where is it stated that

Where is it stated that Aorangi is covered by the government guarantee? Its not part of SCF, and as a seperate entity it would have had to apply on a stand alone basis. I see no evidence to see that is the case - but will stand corrected.

I presume he borrowed money

I presume he borrowed money off the company to buy farming assets which have dropped some 30 to 40% in value so there lies one of the problems especially if he did not put any of his own equity into those purchases. Was he ever worth anything like the kind of money they thought he was worth. I think not. If he is not cracked up to be what a lot of people thoght he was what chance has NZ got of recovering from the mess we are in with so much debt on all the different forms of property assets.

You know, like a lot of

You know, like a lot of people, as far back as 2004/2005 I warned friends of the dangers these dodgy finance companies posed, but nobody wanted to hear it, because they were all going to get rich from their investments, and I was "just jealous".

And those people became very agitated when warned about SCF, because they'd bought into the whole Saint Alan, Knight in Golden Armour myth. He guaranteed their investments with his own money, they said. For every dollar they had in SCF, Saint Al had at least one of his own to cover it.

When asked how they knew this - had they audited his accounts? Did the IRD inspect his vault every month? - those people with SCF investments sneered and then waxed lyrical about how Saint Al "still lived in the same old house and drove the same old car as he always did, and was a man of the people, not some sleazy type like those others".

Well maybe they were right about the latter, and he's just had a bad run of luck lately. But greed and stupidity appears to be the main reason people are coming unstuck here, and I for one do not want to see even a single cent of taxpayer funds wasted on bailing out *anybody* involved in any of it. Let them learn the hard lessons on their own coin.

Listen clown, no one has ever

Listen clown, no one has ever lost a cent investing in SCF so give the bloke a break. The investor who laid the complaint should have insisted on the correct paperwork at the time. As a SCF investor I am quite happy to be covered by the guarantee and will line up with the others for the tax payer payout in the unlikely event of any default. How about looking at the real teflon coated thieves at Money Managers , Hanover , Bridgecorp and the like.

"We have been brainwashed to

"We have been brainwashed to love St. Alan, so we will defend him no matter what. We are even stupider than scientologists."

I cant believe you have

I cant believe you have invested your hard earnt cash in this saint, at least he isnt a crooked SIR which would be more embrassing, watch this space..

Call me sceptical, but 'one

Call me sceptical, but 'one investor' without paperwork? Really? Looks like a stalking horse to me.

Patch, The SFO had 6 years to

Patch,

The SFO had 6 years to look into Hanover since Deborah Hill Cone blew the whistle back in 2004 on the front page of the NBR...they did nothing.

Our property bubble is bursting quietly.....but don't worry Australia won't be far behind with their own version of subprime.

I certainly hope Oz doesn't

I certainly hope Oz doesn't have subprime issues, as our banks are mainly ozzie owned. This is why I think the GG should be made compulsory for banks, and they shouldn't be able to opt out.

It will be interesting to see

It will be interesting to see what role Mrs Hubbard had in all of this.

I hear her cheese scones are

I hear her cheese scones are to die for.

.. .. So were Flo

..
.. So were Flo Bielke-Petersen's pumpkin scones . But that didn't imply you should've trusted her old man as far as you could throw him , either .

Just in case you haven’t

Just in case you haven’t realise yet the world is changing for ever.

WK

Good economic news from

Good economic news from SA:
Herbert is the lowest paid earner on the FWC and the Italian goalie earns more then the entire All Whites together. Isn’t that typical for the world ?

What a game ! Great “All Whites - a very promising achievement !
It was very difficult to play (too many yellow cards) with a referee supporting a team of “China Ware”. Like against Australia during the last FWC Italy was able to trick the referee for a penalty.

Unfortunately the “All White” not conter- attacking in the last 20 minutes, missed a possible chance for a win against a susceptible, rather insecure World Champion- hmm! Next time.

Against a tough, athletic Paraguay only an organised, hard working team working for a win will succeed for 1/ 18 final qualification.

Good luck !

WK Swisskiwi

"He said Hubbard had not been

"He said Hubbard had not been involved in the business on a day to day basis for weeks"

Lies.

The new SCF building in Timaru has large non-tinted windows, through which anyone driving past the building on the afternoon of Friday 18th June 2010 could clearly see AH sitting at a computer.

Step back, folks, and this is

Step back, folks, and this is a ponzi - but it's not alone. And given that ignorance is no excuse, there are a lot of guilty ponzi-touts out there. Pollies, economists, business news reporters, financial hawkers, banks....

If capitalism in it's present form needs to advance 'money' and charge 'interest' for the advance, then it is locked into needing to grow, or die.

Clearly, that growth needed to be underwritten by physical activity, carried out on/in/with physical resources. Equally clearly, that construct was temporary, on a finite planet with finite supplies of everything from fossil fuels to farm fodder.

At and beyond that point - and the Club of Rome projections, updated every ten years,have never varied - the fiscal system was in trouble. As it is, (and it was entirely predictable) we overshot the underwritable point, thanks to accelerating debt-issuance. Folk like me think that debt is not underwritable now.

I couldn't have told you which financial institutions, but I could have told you when they would be generically in trouble. And if I could pick it to the decade from 1975, and to the year from 2001/2, why didn't the 'experts'?

It requires a complete change

It requires a complete change in mindset. The cap on debt is infinity, the cap on equity is 100%. If all loans were treated as positions in equity then the idea that you can just hand money over to someone else and sit back and collect interest would disappear. The total return available to all investers is capped by the return on total equity. An OCR would be seen for what it is price fixing! Why should a "risk free" deposit earn interest?

I've copied following Allan

I've copied following Allan Hubbard's own words as printed in the Timaru Herald (it's all that needs be said about Police State NZ). And think about it, these were charitable trusts set up by Hubbard solely for charitable purposes - there's no crime here. On the face of it, this probe is about the paperwork. Hands up those of you who have read their entire mortgage document?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/3833081/Hubbard-in-fraud-probe

Quote:

" ALLAN HUBBARD'S STATEMENT:

"I am writing to you following recent action by a Government department.

"I have operated Aorangi Security as a mortgage company for over 30 years and during that entire period interest has been paid quarterly and the clients have suffered no loss of capital and have a prompt return of capital.

"The current position of Aoarangi is approximately as follows:

"Mortgage and loans owing to Aoarangi: $126 million

"Cash at bank: $2 million.

"This adds to $128 million.

"Client desposits $88 million which means a surplus of $40 million.

"The $40 million surplus belongs to myself and family and all our equity has been subordinated to client interest, ie, the Hubbard family stands any loss before clients do.

"The Crown seems to believe that your capital is at risk under my management and have appointed a statutory manager whose job is to realise all the loans and repay you your capital. This will take time as it is not possible for borrowers to repay loans at short notice.

"There are sufficent funds on hand to pay interest due at June 30.

"If for any reason you do not receive your capital back in full and provided it is within my resources I will meet any shortfall.

"I extend my personal apology for what has happened.

"I am sorry that this action was taken by a government offical with little consultation with myself and can only conclude that the government official has been misguided in his action.

"In the past month I have been working on finding a solution to South Canterbury Finance affairs and hope to arrange an agreement with an overseas company, subject to confirmation by June 30 to inject a large amount of capital which would place South Canterbury Finance in a secure position for the future.

"As you will have read in the media in February last I introduced $150 million of assets into South Canterbury Finance to ensure that there was an equity for preference shareholders and that they suffered no loss.

"I don't believe in the history of New Zealand that any person has acted more honourably than myself."

I find it hard to believe

I find it hard to believe that Simon Power, the SecCom and the SFO who all have a history of playing lay-down-misere hands would have "been miguided in his[thier] action".

And they often have the Joker

And they often have the Joker in that hand!

"I don't believe in the

"I don't believe in the history of New Zealand that any person has acted more honourably than myself."

More honourably than Charles Upham???????? (Just to put a name in. There are tens of thousands who have laid their life on the line for New Zealand.)

The R.S.A. is owed an apology by Allan Hubbard for this insult; how could transferring shares into a company (not a gift by the way) be the most honourable thing done in the history of this country?!

Yes very good point. It does

Yes very good point. It does seem unecessary hyperbole from AH, and perhaps shows the pressure he is under

"The R.S.A. is owed an

"The R.S.A. is owed an apology by Allan Hubbard for this insult; how could transferring shares into a company (not a gift by the way) be the most honourable thing done in the history of this country?!"

 

you have totally rewritten what Hubbard said. He certainly did not say that he had done the most honourable thing in the history of NZ .

"I don't believe in the history of New Zealand that any person has acted more honourably than myself."

 

Do you really think he was including war vets?

It sure sounds like it to

It sure sounds like it to me.

"I don't believe in the history of New Zealand that any person has acted more honourably than myself."

He stated that in the history of NZ no person has ever acted more honourably than himself.

So he has claimed to have acted as honourably as every NZ war veteran from all of the conflicts NZ has been involved with.

And, in his own words,  he has acted as honourably as any medical professional, or civic volunteer, or sports person, or whoever.

Wow. He should definitely get a medal. Or a free packet of gingernuts.

Says he.

Says he.

He has used other peoples

He has used other peoples money to try and get rich. Why did he have to have so much to be happy. Coming from such a poor backround one can only assume he felt inadequate unless he got rich in his lifetime. All he did like many others was artificially push up the value of assets by being greedy and now that the value of assets like farms are falling, his entities such as scf are in trouble.

The comments on this thread

The comments on this thread are sickening. An honourable man, a philanthropist who has given more money to charity than all the men on this thread (even if they were they to live five lifetimes) has just has his entire 'empire' taken over by the State. And all the little men here are laughing like hyenas. Time will tell, but I would take Hubbard at his word above. In the meantime, New Zealand, meet Venezuela.

And as a taxpayer I am more than annoyed. The bureaucrats who have set these latest events in process, have made it almost certain my money will have to bailout the investors of SCF.

[Not a SCF investor.]

As Bernard posted last night.

As Bernard posted last night. Let us see what the Serious Fraud Office review brings, and we shall hopefully all be the wiser.

NA I very rarely agree with

NA I very rarely agree with anything post, but I like your attitude towards this development.

Seriously folks there is nothing to gained by speculating and character assassination of one of New Zealand’s well know and liked philanthropist. Wait for the facts.

.. .. And it costs more to

..
.. And it costs more to keep them in prison .. .. Give the guy a pension and a gold-card , and tell him to behave in the rest-home . Cheaper on the tax-payer , that way .

I am not a SCF investor,but

I am not a SCF investor,but this saga seems to be getting worse,Aorangi is still tied to SCF one way or another.I would be bailing out if I had money in SCF, even with a government gaurantee there sill is a mountain of debt.

when someone wants to own so

when someone wants to own so much does it not show where their heart really lies. Even if they give some away, why have so much. Why not put your energy into things that really count.

"why have so much ..." Why

"why have so much ..."

Why would you strive for so little?

Jeez.

because you only need so much

because you only need so much to live on and there are more important things in life than having tens or hundreds of millions. To get there something normally has to give as shown by what has happened to scf and what happened yesterday.

another finace co stuff up,

another finace co stuff up, stick with property i say.

being in property is why they

being in property is why they have stuffed up. Shares are king now.

As WK said the world is

As WK said the world is changing.

It's all about liquidity and funding. It's a slow process but we are in the midst of an unwind of debt which started back in 2007 and could take a few more years yet.

Aorangi Secs has $2m in cash out of total assets of $128m.

The equity is irrelevant really. It's just another case of extreme leverage and paper profits giving the impression of wealth.

Let's hope there's no related party lending amongst this.

raf i believe there is

raf i believe there is definitely related party lending and there lies the problem and the reason for the investigation.

wow. 2mill cash in the bank

wow. 2mill cash in the bank for Aorangi. that should make some alarm bells ring.

Didnt English say he has provisioned 800mill for Finance company collapses.

Based on the Media release &

Based on the Media release & other public information, the situation can be summarised as follows:

Money raised from the public without a prospectus (illegal), on lent to related parties (Mr & Mrs Hubbard themselves) without proper or adequate security and paperwork.

To breach the crimes act this

To breach the crimes act this probably means that the funds were not deposits but trust funds, and that the trustee was liable for criminal breach of trust by using the funds contrary to the trust deed.

Well a poster on the NBR blog

Well a poster on the NBR blog reckons this is what was happening:

''Because it would seem the old man was meeting the quarterly interest to investors with money invested with Aorangi more recently and lending money on - in some cases to distressed farmers - at considerably lower rates of interest than he'd promised the initial investors. He was apparently hoping to avoid the inevitable shortfall this practice would seem to invite by crossing his fingers that the assets he was lending on massively rebounded in value.

The problem is, this wasn't what Aorangi investors signed up for, that being more commercial behaviour, the loans of which were backed by first mortgages''.

But the point regarding the

But the point regarding the above speculation - without any prospectus, said investors didn't "sign up for" anything documented and promised in terms of "public" dealings. Someone else suggested in terms of the Crimes Act it is more likely a trust/trustee (as opposed to investor) driven concern.

FYI to all I have updated the

FYI to all I have updated the story with Allan Hubbard's statement, which is reproduced in full above the comments.

cheers
Bernard

FYI to all I have updated

FYI to all I have updated again with S&P considering their response and comments from an unnamed Aorangi investor.

cheers
Bernard

Some of you people are

Some of you people are unbelievable. Speculative to the extreme and pre-judgements that defy the imagination. For goodness sake, how bout suspending a bit of judgement until the investigations are complete? This is only the beginning of the story. As for the character assassinations of Hubbard, many of you seem to take great delight in accusing him of the very worst of motives and actions. On what basis are you making such defamatory statements? Do you know him personally? Are you fully cognizant of the nature of his character? Do your accusations match with Hubbard's actions up to this point - like putting in $150m of his own money to keep SCF going, rather than walking away?
Many of your comments come across to me as arrogant, patronising, ignorant, envious and taking great delight at someone else's situation. In particular, the person who hides behind "Anonymous" (is this just one person or several?) seems to spend half their waking hours taking pot shots. When I read them I can only laugh - they just seem so bigoted and ignorant.
So Bernard is right - hold off in your speculations. Some of you might end up being right - but you could just as easily be so very wrong. In the meantime, I tend to take the view that up to this point Hubbard's actions seem to have been honorable - so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until such time as it is proved otherwise.
One last point - does seem very sadly ironic that the govt authorities haven't taken this action in the last seven years, when characters of unquestionable greed, misrepresentation and absence of ethics have kept their companies going, leading investors over the cliff face. And now they act - and it happens to be the most unlikely of characters they act against!

.. .. Meebee 'cos the gumnut

..
.. Meebee 'cos the gumnut have some " skin in the game " , via the gumnut guarantee , that they're overeacting alike an Italian soccer player . Writhing and screaming .. .. gnashing and wailing ... ... Because maybe something bad has happened . .. . Maybe !

.. But your point is well made , that Big Al has hung around , trying to keep the kit & caboodle afloat . [ No skiving off to Fiji / Turkey / Hawaii / for a knees up party , with personal flunkies in tow , as per Watson & Hotchin ]

More like there are some very

More like there are some very senior govt people with cash in SCF and they were hoping the GG would buy enough time to get their cash out...but they've just had some very bad news and are now tossing the toys out of the cot.

Innocent until proven guilty

Innocent until proven guilty had perhaps a more firm basis in moral philosophy (and hence "acceptable" societal behaviour/norms) prior to present times. Meaning before government's globally stepped in to protect the interests of private investors with taxpayer funds.

Not that our GG is supposed to use taxpayer dollars, as it was designed to be self-funding by lending institutions. But given the interconnectedness of our commercial/agricultural property sector, I wonder whether the claims on this GG in future might not exceed the fees collected?

It (the GG liabilities, not to mention the leaky homes ones) has the potential to affect every New Zealand citizen. One can't really blame the innocents - or non-players, for voicing their anger/disgust/frustrations/fears. Thanks to the internet giving voice to the general public, the game has changed - guilty until proven innocent is a perhaps a new moral trend emerging as a result of so many public institutions being recently found guilty of misconduct?

Well said. The confounding

Well said.

The confounding variable in this is that the act of governments statutory management decision may actually weaken SCF, in essence making it more difficult to have investors roll deposits.
Then you have S&P come out with their concerns which end up being pro-cyclical.
Given that S&P would have greater access to the underlying financials that Mum and Dad playing at home, this looks like another fail on their behalf.

It can be very difficult for the Mums and Dads playing at home to really know what is going on. Those making the decisions don't appear to be very cognisant of this aspect - at least on the face of it.
The only saving grace is perhaps the guarantee should prevent a run. Given this was extended only quite recently it is a shock statutory management is suddenly necessary.

get real Wayne. People don't

get real Wayne. People don't get that rich{although I suspect he is not as rich as some would like or hope him to be} without stepping over people and having a greedy nature. You can't serve both God and Money.

all rather sad really! i

all rather sad really!
i choose to believe that allan hubbard is mainly guilty of olde world thinking, misguided intentions to help local farmers and lending his former CEO 15 million unsecured etc.
i also feel sorry for Sandy maier who has worked his arse off recently to try and restructure SCF and now he's probably knackered by association.
my prediction.
Hubbard will fall of his perch from the stress,SFO will find only paperwork irregularities in Aorangi and SCF will eventually , like the Titanic, slowly fall over to be saved by the GG and will then become a large rural SOE continuing operations for the NZ Govt...and will grow and prosper!

No body saved the Titanic

No body saved the Titanic Dude!

Prediction is not bad Rob,

Prediction is not bad Rob, but I'm guessing that another finance co has started this ball rolling and is patiently waiting on the side lines, chequebook at the ready. There will be no quick release of any findings by SFO, investors will get nervous, and price will plummet.

Socialist geographer David

Socialist geographer David Harvey coins it "Accumulation by dispossession".

Yes, I wonder if there are

Yes, I wonder if there are any other finance companies out there that are South Island based, looking to gain critical mass, trying to become a bank, and have had various capital injections into South Canterbury in recent times.

They call it "hiding in plain sight" in the army.

and lending to himself by the

and lending to himself by the look of it. How honourable is that.

Bloody bad news for the South

Bloody bad news for the South Island economy whatever the Hubbard's rights and wrongs are. The fall-out will be massive.

.. .. A fool's pain can be a

..
.. A fool's pain can be a smart bugger's gain ! .. .. A Crafar farm , anyone ... dirt cheap .

a fool? i take it you have

a fool? i take it you have acheived more the alan in your life time?

.. .. A comment in general ,

..
.. A comment in general , not aimed pacifically at Big Al . But if he'd not acted unwisely , overleveraging into the dairy boom , his fortune & that of his investors , would not now be in jeopardy .

i pulled my money from SCF

i pulled my money from SCF but i still beleive in this old fella and i wont change my judgement of him unless the facts say differently

But wont put your money where

But wont put your money where your mouth is?

I invested $120,000 in

I invested $120,000 in Hubbard Managed Funds in 2000 (managed by Allan Hubbard @ 2% fee). In the 2009 statement it is valued at 391,000. I get a detailed statement of shares bought /sold and dividends are reinvested.

Bernie Madoff's clients got

Bernie Madoff's clients got statements as well!

have you ever taken any money

have you ever taken any money out. How do you know it actually exists.

nat why did you pull your

nat why did you pull your money then.If you trusted him and the depth of his pockets why pull it.

Very Interesting to hear/read

Very Interesting to hear/read Maier's comment that the Statutory Management of Aorangi and assoc. trusts will not impact SCF. Balderdash....Hubbard is no longer the controlling shareholder of any of his companies, they are all under the control of the Statutory Managers. By far the majority of investors in SCF have invested because of their trust in Hubbard once they realise that he has absolutly no control or say in the affairs of SCF I suspect their loyalty to SCF will dissapate.
I think the SFO must have some genuine concerns however they didn't put SCF into Statutory Management, they didn't have to. Maier (ex Statutory Manager) is already in charge, sort of de-facto Statutory Management. I'm sure he would have been consulted prior to yesterdays announcement. There's probably a good chance that Maier can stich an incoming fresh equity deal together and go a fair way in getting the Gov. Guarantee reduced.

Its a disgrace. The useless

Its a disgrace. The useless securities Commission will go after Hubbard, but sits on their butts doing nothing while a whole lot of ratbag Finance Company bosses rip-off hundreds of millions from the investing public of New Zealand.
Its the Securities Commission that should be put into statutory management, then dumped.

Still dont under stand why

Still dont under stand why hanover hasnt been investigated by securities commission - maybe she likes those hanover boys hehhe

Outrageous for the government

Outrageous for the government to intervene in this way. Are we in China?

The SFO better have something serious. (Something better than W and his WMDs)

"have you ever taken any

"have you ever taken any money out. How do you know it actually exists."

I get a list of shares bought sold and when I want to take the money out I have to give 2 months notice.

Power Corrupts. Alan Hubbard

Power Corrupts. Alan Hubbard is a victim of taking investment money without a Prospectus. I am sure he can justify his investments and had the best intentions. However when youve been on top of the world for 40 plus years it would be hard to fathom that maybe you can get it wrong. Since his health has deteriorated I could also see how others have maybe taken advantage of this man. I am sure no one will lose money at the end of the day however his mode of doing and documenting business went out of fashion 30 years ago.

Watch SCF shares tumble and

Watch SCF shares tumble and present a good opportunity for takeover at a good price, by some overseas investor. Is there someone behind this ?

Maybe there is another

Maybe there is another conglomerate looking to set up a bank in the SOuth ISland that needs some critical mass.

Are SCF listed?

Are SCF listed?

"The CEO of a trust which has

"The CEO of a trust which has been placed under statutory management believes South Island multi-millionaire Allan Hubbard will be exonerated in time.

Mr Hubbard, his wife Margaret, their company Aorangi Securities and seven other charitable trusts have been placed under statutory management by the government. South Canterbury Finance is not being investigated.

Wendy Smith, the CEO of the Aoraki Development Trust says Mr Hubbard is highly regarded in the South Canterbury region and she is deeply surprised about the government's actions. She believes it is important not to overreact and to wait for the investigation to be completed.

Ms Smith says she expects the business community to back Mr Hubbard and is confident the matter will be cleared up in a short period of time.

Mr Hubbard has issued a statement to his clients about the statutory management issue."

he and other people talk

he and other people talk about honour. Where was his honour when he took money off people and lent it to himself by the look of it and he did not disclose it to these lenders to his company. If he was so rich why did he have to borrow off people in the first place. The honourable thing would be to tell people they were lending to him in the first place and get them independent advice and plenty of security for such loans. Why did he not borrow off a bank like the rest of us.

exactly "sceptical". Where

exactly "sceptical".
Where was his honour when he was lending $180 million to his own companies via SCF at reduced rates whilst other borrowers paid rates in excess of market rates to support thsese incestuous related party loans.
He put $150 mill equity into SCF? Yeah right - minimal cash plus a whole lot of paper equity in his own companies at very questionable valuations.

There are so many envy ridden

There are so many envy ridden clueless r*tards on this thread.

"Where was his honour when he took money off people ..."

No, it's the Government that 'takes money off people'. Investors voluntarily invested their money with Allan Hubbard.

"... and lent it to himself by the look of it and he did not disclose it to these lenders to his company ..."

This is what we will find out in time. I personally suspect as much as anything else it is as stated above: he was working on an 'old world' model of business, where honour did hold and business could be done on a handshake without a library full of paperwork and ten to fifty overpaid bureaucrats waiting to crucify him (I've been wondering at this since I saw the chief bureaucrat on the TV last night announcing the probe, reminding me of many years ago watching the administrator bureaucrats of NZ's most powerful bureaucracy planning their district departmental budgets by 'literally' pulling numbers from a hat).

The related parties, if that's what this is, will involve a lot of outside investors: it's not just Allan and Margaret Hubbard (though because he put's his/invested money where his mouth is, of course oftentimes he would share an interest, and take on the risk.)

This is the ruination of an individual by the State, and if nothing comes from the probe other than paperwork issues, then some bureaucratic heads better b-loody well roll.

Perhaps this whole repugnant incident will so offend the public of Mid/South Canterbury and Southland to such an extent, that we might finally start a revolution against the huge Nanny State we have.

Well, not likely going by this thread. The ignoble mob rules in this freedom hating land: we can't be far from voting in Chavez.

.. .. Did you sleep through

..
.. Did you sleep through the Clark/Cullen/Simpson 9 years ? If that was not our " Chavez " era .. .. I can't imagine wot would be !

you need to get your head out

you need to get your head out the sand. No professional of any type can take or accept money off a lender without disclosing where it is going, what it is being used for and what security is being offered. If you are accepting it for yourself you need to disclose that no matter how small the amount as you have a clear conflict of interest and you need to get them independent advice. This has to be a serious situation for the SFO to be involved. You remind me of the south islanders who slammed the Rugby Union when Henry got reappointed. Look who bet Aussie on the weekend. AH obviously does not walk on water. Get real.

do you have any facts? and i

do you have any facts? and i guess you are referiing to the AB's playing wales......... last weekend?

If he accepted money from

If he accepted money from people on the basis that it would be used for 1st mortgages and then loaned it to himself instead, that is not what you call "the 'old world' model of business".

In the old days, it was called FRAUD.

Old Mother Hubbard went to

Old Mother Hubbard
went to the cash cupboard
to fetch her investors a nice ROI
But when she got there
the cupboard was bare...

except for the SFO !

remember Cornish Investments anyone ? - another nice ol chap that came a cropper - usual story : invested in bricks and mortar,next to no cash on hand ,and over she goes when people want their money

.. .. Old Alan Hubbard ..

..
.. Old Alan Hubbard
.. went to the cupboard
.. to fetch out a fresh loan

.. when he got there
.. the cupboard was bare
.. so he gave alot of his own !

Handing over your own funds

Handing over your own funds after using other peoples money without authority does not make the latter right.That is the point of the SFO being involved now.

And the SFO do not have a

And the SFO do not have a recent history of being trigger-happy.

you are only remembered for

you are only remembered for the one thing you did wrong and not all the good things you did for others. He should have have borrowed off the bank like everyone else. If you borrow off individuals you need to do it properly and without any conflicts of interest involved. Time will tell what he actually did but on the face of it it looks like he did not follow basic rules of business.

Well my dears, searching for

Well my dears, searching for the amontillado I looked in Bernard's fridge and was astonished to find 57 finance companies since May 2006 in the cold with almost 200000 depositors involved and owings of NZ$6.25 billion. Anyway my nephew Spiv says stay away from unitised investments and get into Equity Direct. He favours eco-finance startups like Toilet Paper Recyclers Ltd but I'm not sure I should sell my Krugers.I think I'll hang on for a bit.

"More like there are some

"More like there are some very senior govt people with cash in SCF and they were hoping the GG would buy enough time to get their cash out...but they've just had some very bad news and are now tossing the toys out of the cot."
.
.
.
Ding-ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!

Annon you're an

Annon you're an idiot.

Although right in one respect AH did not solicit the funds. His former accountancy firm Hubbard Churcher did.

Dismayed -- do you really

Dismayed -- do you really think this was all done without any discussion with Mr Hubbard - And surely if the answer was as simple as you suggest - he would have been able to satisfy those asking the questions - How does one explain Charitable Trusts that are not registered - or are you saying he should not have to meet the same legal standards as the rest of us for some reason ?
Given the Govt has such a huge exposure to SCF by way of a gtee - which they now have increased the chances of having to pay out under - do you not think they would have endeavoured to resolve this without statutory management if at all possible

I saw AH on tv tonight. He is

I saw AH on tv tonight. He is past it.
He just does not get the point.
The fact that people will get their money back is irrelevant. What is relevant is how he got the money, what he did not tell people who were lending money to his company (not him) and who he lent it to and on what terms. There are things in the world of lending such as disclosure, security, conflicts and honesty. You cannot treat someone differently just because he is old and has always done it that way. On the face of it he has personally profited from borrowing money from a company and the lenders did not know it was happening. Related party lending. How can you call that honourable.

Anon - that is exactly the

Anon - that is exactly the issue - he thinks just because no one has lost any money -- yet --- nothing in wrong. The fullness of time will show the true extent of his layers of leverage and if it was all so clean and above board - why the "200 companies" (as reported) that all his dealings were channeled through.

why the "200 companies"

why the "200 companies"

Because they were mainly farm investments I suspect. And given NZ's nonsensical tainted capital gains tax rules, you would prudently never have more than one entity/farm per company.

These 407 investors in Aorangi were well heeled individuals, look at the average deposit amount, and we now know there was no prospectus - because there didn't need to be - offering first mortgages. They knew the risks of the investments they were taking, and if they didn't, then as should be the case in an open market, buyer beware. Biting the lemon after the event is dishonourable.

What is this bizarre "capital

What is this bizarre "capital gains tax" of which you speak?

Not all of the investors are

Not all of the investors are probably as street wise as AH. That is why you have rules and ethics and standards. To protect people. People keep on saying he is wroth $550 million. If he had that kind of money he would not need to borrow of people and SCF would not be in trouble as it currently is. How much debt does he have and is it fully secured for the investors who lent it to his company not him.

Why did he not just use a

Why did he not just use a bank like all of us do? Why did he have to get so big using on the face of it other peoples money? Did he contribute to the huge inflation in farm land and other asset classes because he bought so much for his family,far more than they will ever need? In doing that has he contributed to the problems we now find ourselves in in NZ with assets dropping in value and people and businesses going under as a consequence. If everyone including him had been content with enough income and capital to keep us all in a reasonable standard of living would NZ be in the mess it is in now? I wonder.

D&PO. You hit the nail on the

D&PO.
You hit the nail on the head: "offering first mortgages". Not all the money went into first mortgages.

Face the facts; he used money that wasn't his. Nobody, but nobody, can do this legally.

Read again what the investor from Waimate says - what the investor says means more than what AH says.

Your are all wasting your

Your are all wasting your breath. People from the area where he lives in NZ are blinded by their sheer faith in him. He can do no wrong. There has to be rules and rules must be followed. If one person or company is allowed to break the rules then everyone can. There can be no exception. Related party lending is a no no. It is even worse if such lending is not disclosed to the lenders by the borrowers. People have been helped by him and he has made money for people. People will probably get all their loans back. This is all irrelevant though. In the end he must follow all ethical, moral and statutory rules in relation to borrowing off the public.

"People will probably get all

"People will probably get all their loans(sic) back."

This is not about "people". It's about certain people. The people at the very top of the political and financial food chain who have money "invested" with Hubbard.

The only reason Hubbard's circus received the government guarantee was because they didn't want to lose their personal investments. But then they discovered the extent of the problems and realised that more drastic action was required.

Make no mistake, they do not give a damn about anyone else, the "mum and dad" investors, and will leave them high-and-dry the moment they get what they're after. This is a mission to retrieve their own money, at any cost (to the rest of us).

Tell me about it. The blind

Tell me about it. The blind faith in him may well have contributed to his downfall - he thought he could do no wrong.

It will take a lot of people a long time to see that their hero is a mere man subject to the law of the country the same as any common thief. Local legend has it that he drove his VW for years without a warrant - and local police turned a blind eye. May not be true of course; you could possibly call that story a smear campaign.

What hasn't been commented on much yet is where HC Partners stand - seems like they were happily investing their client's money in a finance company that had never issued a prospectus!

Mr Hubbard has provided

Mr Hubbard has provided wonderful help to sharemilkers in the past. I have seen it. The sharemilkers must be hard workers, but more than that, they must be scrupulously honest.
I will be most interested to see the financial statements of the Te Tua Charitable Trust though. It is an unusual outfit.
Everybody that I have met who have had anything at all to do with Mr Hubbard in the past have been laudatory in their comments about him. To a man!
There is something very smelly here.
I wonder if Mr Figjam Power will be as succesful here as the Labour Govt were when they searched Ruatoki and environs for illegal firearms, about two years ago.

May I point out that Simon

May I point out that Simon Power would have been consulted after SFO decided they had a case.

Simon Power would have been fully aware how unpopular this decision would be, and he is to be lauded as a brave man for doing what is in the best interests of all New Zealanders.

Hear hear. There's a lot of

Hear hear. There's a lot of smoke so far and only a matter of time before a bushfire starts. AH has played musical chairs and been caught short.

Simon Power is merely doing

Simon Power is merely doing the bidding of those in government who stand to lose personal funds if Hubbard goes down the gurgler. That's all this is about.

all i see is a paper money go

all i see is a paper money go round, paper wealth will not save any of his companys, as my job relys on work from many of the farms that have loans from the hubbard empire i can only hope it doesnt turn sour for all them.

Anonymous 'Why did he have to

Anonymous

'Why did he have to get so big using on the face of it other peoples money?'

I don't know why the SFO has got excited so am not going to comment on Hubbard until I do, but what's your problem with using other people's money to build businesses?. NZ's standard of living is vitally dependant on entrepeneurs ambitious to build enterprises large enough to compete on the world stage. I bet you have no problem enjoying the benefits the efforts of such people have brought our country over many years.

Dismayed and P-issed Off @

Dismayed and P-issed Off @ 6:54pm

Dead right about the country having been taken over by the Nazis and Power being a jackbooted National socialist ( must wear his trousers outside).

There are book burnings going on right outside my window as I write this.
Our good friends Chaim and Eli have been ordered to the railway station and I can't find out why.
I can only get one channel on my radio, all the others seem to have been blocked in recent days.

Don't worry, I'll get the swinehund tomorrow ... I'm on my way to the beehive bunker complete with briefcase and pliers.

Staffenburg.

Is that you, Dad?

Is that you, Dad?

My business has been

My business has been dependent on SCF for funding for circa 10 years and enabled me to grow my business to employ over 50 people. The Aussie banks would not touch us, (formulae box tickers) yet we produce an EBITDA of $2mio a year, I am grateful for the support of SCF. Yes they erred in property lending, but they have a "good" book that it dependent on SCF as a going concern, the day they are out of business I will need to call in the receiver, as there is no alternative funding. Mr Hubbard is a remarkable man and maybe some practices were conducted with a deal done on the back of an envelope or a handshake that no longer cuts with compliance requirements caused by the lowest denominator set by the crooked banks, US banks, also remember BNZ. Pity the government did not move on Strategic, Hanover etc. I guess they must be confident that SCF restructure will work out under the stewardship of a new CEO and board, or the Aorangi exposure will be petty cash in comparison to the demise of SCF and the massive collateral damage to the NZ economy and resultant one term national government.

Refer to the post from 8:44pm

Refer to the post from 8:44pm for an explanation.

I learnt many years ago not

I learnt many years ago not to put all my business borrowing in one place. If the business is so good and profitable, then any bank will be eager to take on the business. It's not as if your own firm is the problem if your lender fails. Start putting out feelers now before it oes hit the fan.Another thing, I wonder how many other bsuinesses who borrow from SCF are in the same position: so what happens if SCF does start to call in loans? More bad debts methinks. Poor old taxpayer

I feel sorry for the guy, and

I feel sorry for the guy, and especially after seeing him on TV. He is one of the good guys, and if it wasn't for him and his lending to businesses, NZ wouldn't have done as well as we have done. He personally guaranteed everything and pumped his own money into the company, and he doesn't and has never lived the high life, so doesn't need the money.

I just wish that the securities commission acted on all these other finance companies years ago. Where were they?

You all are missing the

You all are missing the point. If he has broken the rules whether they be legal moral or ethical ones then he has to front up like anyone else. He is not a god who is exempt. He has to do what we all have to do. Follow the rules. It is irrelevant that everyone will get their funds back. You do not borrow and lend that money to yourself undisclosed. That is a cardinal sin.

Facts? string him up in your

Facts? string him up in your kangaroo court, lets destroy one the few succesful kiwis we have, while you are at it take some pot shots @ Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch and anybody elses richer than you.

"I was told it was in a trust

"I was told it was in a trust fund," the investor said.

It wasn't.

Using other people's money without their permission is illegal, whoever does it.

It is a proof of democracy working that AH's status didn't prevent the SFO moving in.

"I was told it was in a trust

"I was told it was in a trust fund," the investor said.

Link please?

Who told the investor that?

Also, why would you invest money long term into a 'Trust Fund'? What is that? (A Trust Fund denotes to me simply a temporary placement 'on the way to somewhere': such as a solicitor's trust account during a conveyancy.)

If someone was told their money was in a trust fund while 'whatever' matter was being sorted out, and it wasn't in a trust account/fund(?), then I'll agree, that's shonky. But if it was a long term investment, and Aorangi was solely about long term investments, then what does this investor mean by this?

Kiwisaver goes into a

Kiwisaver goes into a trust...

A personal guarantee is only

A personal guarantee is only worth the cash that is available to back it. Seems to me that the cash is expected to come from the very firms he guarantees and thus the guarantee is worthless.It is a piece of paper. Try buying food with that.

Yes, but has any other

Yes, but has any other finance company director in NZ ever given that sort of guarantee. I do recall another finance company director a few years ago once saying he would see that investors wouldn't lose any money from teh finance company freezing it's funds, and would even look at selling his houses, but that never eventuated, and investors lost out big time.

Anon,11.14pm You should look

Anon,11.14pm
You should look for an equity partner to grow with you and your business, and secure your businesses future now. Otherwise you will get caught in the crossfire.

The days of using finance companies are over.

You can bet your bottom dollar the new South Island bank will go the same way as all the Aussie banks, just look at who is going to be running it.

Mr Hubbard may have been a

Mr Hubbard may have been a great fellow in the past, but it is time to move on.SCF has huge debt and it is going to have problems refinancing from now on.The Aorangi questions are the start of a meltdown,we have got to get real.An equity partner is a mirage, would you want to become an equity partner in SCF? yeah right.

'The only constant is

'The only constant is change.'

A quick warning to all on

A quick warning to all on this and other threads.

Any comparison of anyone or any company or any government with Nazi Germany will automatically be deleted for obvious reasons.

Let's be forceful and detailed in our comments, but not stoop to talk-back radio levels people.

cheers
Bernard

Anonymous @10:07am So, for

Anonymous @10:07am

So, for your conspiracy 'personal funds invested' motive theory to be correct, a large number of the high level shiny suits at the SFO and other corridors of power astutely avoided Petrecivic, Hotchin and all the other wide boys and yet unquestioningly poured their personal cash into SCF and its shaky property investments.

Would this disconnect in approach not seem just a teeny bit unlikely?.

Unless of course they were all in AH's scout group together and it's Baden Powell honour thing, stick together at all costs boys. Simon Power is, we were reading last night, apparently into jackboots and might've picked that kink up from a jamboree somewhere. Gotta be worth one of you grassy knoll types investigating this connection with scouts as we could be onto a story bigger than Texas here.

You're missing the real

You're missing the real picture in favour of making fun of me.

Who is currently *very high up* in govt and has a long association and history with the South Island, and with SI businesses and finance, particularly agriculture?

This has nothing to do with the bottom-drawer SFO drones in cheap suits and anybody else from down in the dungeons.

But what if their actions

But what if their actions are like those from Nazi Germany?

Tribelesss @ 11:03am I hope

Tribelesss @ 11:03am

I hope you are being tongue in cheek. If not you need a serious history lesson. Attempting to sincerely draw any sembalance of a prallell betwen that monstrously evil system and ours, would be a declaration of woeful ignorance.

Bullshit!

Bullshit!

SCF = Stuffed Cash Flow SFO

SCF = Stuffed Cash Flow
SFO = Surprises For Ol People
Aorangi = Fartu fulla bulla so Haere Ra auf weidersen and all that

I tried to tell IRD that Im an honourable man and I have a huge surplus of equity to pay them one day but the rotters didnt wear it - One Law 4 All or sumthin they said

The irony is of course that

The irony is of course that going into statutory management may mean that Aorangi pays back the money it owes ... so, if this happens, the question will be would it have happened in the absence of the statutory management?

And if statutory management doesn't deliver 100c in the dollar, can one prove that not going into statutory management would have? So far, close to 0% of finance company moratoriums have worked out.

I'm very interested to see the specifics when they become available. The SFO doesn't do much of anything unless it thinks it will succeed, and neither do Govt Ministers hoping to be re-elected.

@Anon "Simon Power is merely

@Anon

"Simon Power is merely doing the bidding of those in government who stand to lose personal funds if Hubbard goes down the gurgler. That's all this is about."

You may be wrong, but it sure sounds to me like what you said has the ring of truth to it.

Anonymous 4:27pm Aha - the

Anonymous 4:27pm

Aha - the REAL picture eh?. Hmm, farming, South Island, high up in Govt?. All very mysterious I have to say, you're not making it easy.

Got it !

But wait, big Al is a Presbyterian isn't he. They don't borrow money off Catholics.

Must be someone else. I'll keep thinking.

Double Dip Dipton English and

Double Dip Dipton English and friends must have exposure to SCF I would think. Key only visited SCF when things started looking smelly. He didnt pay a visit to Mark or Eric or any of the other companies that "lost" hundreds of millions of investors money.I smell a rat!

Didn't we hear a week ago

Didn't we hear a week ago that Double Dipton had an urgent clandestine meeting in Queenstown with a bunch of real estate types?
Interesting timing, that's for sure.

Before I retired I was

Before I retired I was engaged in many insolvency situations including a statutory receivership.    I have been keenly following the “Hubbard” story.     I do not know anybody involved in any of the companies etc. that are part of the statutory receivership.

 

Statutory receivership is generally resorted to when usual insolvency remedies cannot be exercised and/or where the financial affairs of a group of entities become so intertwined that it is difficult under normal circumstances to resolve the position when this needed.    It does not necessarily follow that fraud is involved.    I will be interested to learn the reason for involving the Serious Fraud Office.     There would have to be prima facie evidence of the need for this action.

 

It has been reported that Mr Hubbard worked extraordinary hours, always opened the mail, never took a holiday and dealt with most matters personally.   Accounting students when being taught auditing are advised that these are often danger signs that should be investigated.

 

The regular payment of interest and the occasional repayment of deposits do not mean that all the deposits are intact and can be repaid.     Mr Hubbard would have been aware as to whether or not a depositor is likely to request repayment and when.

 

From what I can glean I hope that it is just a case of unravelling a complex lot of transactions bearing in mind Mr Hubbard’s age and health.      However, reluctantly, I have a feeling that a big hole (deficit) will be discovered and that if this proves to be the case many of the supporters of Mr Hubbard are likely to have red faces and some will have lost a lot of money.

Hubbard's fanatical

Hubbard's fanatical supporters will just create some giant and convoluted conspiracy theory in the event that Saint Alan's motivations and behaviour is revealed to have been anything less than 100% divine.

A friend in a small SI town and who is on the very cusp of retirement has his entire life savings invested with Hubbard but still has a mortgage because he bought an expensive bed and breakfast place in 2005 to give his wife something to do. Both of them are ardent supporters of Alan Hubbard.

Peter Gray died 2005 leaving

Peter Gray died 2005 leaving me a large sum of investments etc, Hubbard and S.C.F recieved alot of this mans money and i have been under threat and life was nearly taking twcie.

The trustee of the will has spent a million dollars fighting against a man who is living in my home i was left and land, Mr Davey was found by the courts to have been doing illegal dealings and lost his way to claim my money, he was peters trustee and witness to signing of will;

I have another person who witnessed and is willing to help me with this if i can get a case started.

Peter helped the hole community and invested money with south cant finance allan hubbards and many other companys.

For 12 months i went through hell only to find that my inheritence hadnt been finalized and i was a subject of fraud attempted murder and greed.

I hope that this blog will find its way to someone who can help me with this and even if at the end there is nothing i will be satisfied in knowing that Will Davey will be convicted of murdering peter gray and fraud, a judge will hear and see paperwork that relates to child pornography and refused help or protection for myself and child by police and detectives.

This is serious organized crime involving child porn drugs and lots of money.

Please help me get my day in court before its too late, my dream of helping starving children and educating financing the less unfortunate with this inheritance may not be lost, and through all this abused children the murder of peter and illegal money laundering and making will be justified. 

Serious Fraud have opened up a door for me i just need help walking through it.

Ive lost my son home income and nearly life due to greed 

teresa scott

misspink76@hotmail.co.nz  

 

  

 

 

Dear Teresa You can't lose

Dear Teresa

You can't lose with property.  Don't let people here tell you otherwise.

The Man

As i have opened up the can i

As i have opened up the can i am now being harassed

I have been ordered by police to give my DNA wtf.

I will be probably be charged with some foney charge

What great protect and serve we have

 

Teresa