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Allan Hubbard says PM Key's absence from NZ a factor in shock decision
Allan Hubbard told Radio New Zealand he had been denied natural justice and would not have been put into statutory management if Prime Minister John Key had been in the country.
South Canterbury Finance owner Allan Hubbard believes he would not have been put into statutory management and investigated by the Serious Fraud Office if Prime Minister John Key had been in the country to sort things out before they got out of hand.
Hubbard told Radio New Zealand he had been denied natural justice and the Companies Office had not given him enough time to show that 'everything was Kosher' with the loan documentation around Aorangi Securities, which was also put into statutory management by the Commerce Minister Simon Power. Power said on Sunday there was not adequate documentation of loans made on behalf of 407 investors who were owed NZ$98 million.
(Updated with comments from John Key on his return from Africa that he supported Power's decision and knew about it)
"I think if Mr Key, who knows me, was in New Zealand, he wouldn't have done that," Hubbard told Radio New Zealand. Key has been in South Africa attending the recent All Whites 1-1 draw with Italy.
"The day they came to see me, I didn't have time to review all the files and work out where the documents were. They just assumed there aren't any documents without giving me the opportunity to produce them. I said come back at the end of June and I'll show that it's absolutely Kosher," Hubbard said.
"It's against the laws of natural justice," he said.
Hubbard said he could rebut every single charge laid against him and prove his innocence in a matter of weeks.
Related Topics
"That is totally incorrect," Hubbard told Radio New Zealand's Geoff Robinson when asked if he did not have the correct documentation for loans made by Aorangi Securities.
"Every loan was documented. When they came to see me, I was going to Dunedin for Queens Birthday Weekend to speak at the 150th anniversary of Knox Church and I was rung on the way down about 4pm by a lawyer in Christchurch telling me they were coming at 9am on the Tuesday morning," Hubbard said.
"I said get them put off for a week, but they wouldn't be put off. I was tied up all weekend. I just came back in time to go to the office and then they demanded all these things. If I'd had time to prepare for them I could have located them all and made sure it was Kosher," he said.
"I did say to Mr (John) McPherson who came down that if he came back at the end of June I would make sure that they were all Kosher and there was security for every loan."
Asked if loans were not secured by mortgages, Hubbard said: "There's no unsecured loans."
Asked if there was just a lack of documentation, he said: "They've assumed that (there were no documents) because they couldn't find the mortgage, but they didn't tell me which ones they wanted. I was in the process of getting a lot of the loans renewed because we were looking to issue a prospectus, and I was renewing the loans for two or three years and I had instructed various lawyers around the town to prepare those documents."
Hubbard was then asked if the loans were made with the full knowledge of investors.
"The loans were verified by me and we don't consult the investors. What they're saying is some people wanted first mortgages. We used to operate that way for many years, but it became very cumbersome, and we basically operate a fund. If anyone wanted a first mortgage, there's enough first mortgages on the books to satisfy those requirements," he said.
"If they'd said to me we will give you a fortnight to come up with everything, I could have come up with everything."
Hubbard was then asked if there should have been documentation immediately available for the Companies Office.
"Yeah, but I mean they were in the process of being renewed by various lawyers so I didn't have them. But with a bit of time frame I could have got them back from the lawyers and made sure it was all Kosher."
Robinson then asked: "So you are saying they will find it's all kosher when they go through the books?"
Hubbard replied: "...or I will get it right for them by tracking down where they are."
Asked if he had had any further contact with the Companies Office or the Serious Fraud Office, Hubbard said:
"I've had discussions with the people involved. I'll cooperate with them. The essential thing is we have NZ$126 million of mortgage loans and NZ$88 million of deposits and the difference of NZ$40 million is the funds which my wife and family have injected into the company and an I've made an underwrite that our funds would disappear before any of the investors if there was a shortfall."
Later, the NBR reported Prime Minister John Key telling a pre-cabinet news conference that he knew of and supported the decision by Power to call in statutory managers.
“I was advised before I left the country that it was likely that ministers would have to group together on Sunday to make that decision,” Key was quoted as saying by the NBR.co.nz.
“I was aware of the decision they made and I support the decision they made,” he added.
77 Comments
I am sure he will come up
I am sure he will come up clean, should have given him some time to produce what they wanted, I hope there are consequences for the numnuts who jumped the gun if everything is kosha, this is going to cause a lot of pain to hubard, SCF and possibly us taxpayers. I am a good judge of character and i am confident hubard is no fraudster
...gee Alan, are you just
...gee Alan, are you just saying that John's a good practical bloke who 'cuts through the crap', or are you conceding nepotism is alive and well in godzone's big business club?
Good to see people can see
Good to see people can see through the business club, John would be pleased he wasnt on the Queens Birthday list, maybe there should be some sort of organisation bigger and with better powers than SFO, hopefully the new FMA will have powers to make sure that goverence in private and public companies are inforced so that CEO's & chairmans are separated from directors so they dont have total control and bully directors. In a private company the CEO?Chairman/
shareholder can hold the company to ransom as there is a handful of
people willing to help the little shareholder.
There is a major problem with so few people that rule the top and they almost become gods by the adverage, maybe they should put them selves in the situation of giving there hard earnt cash to Mr. Hubbard to find they have know basis to get there money back?? fool you for giving money without the necessary paper work first. This is almost like a company CEO/Chairman/shareholder issuing new shares in a company without correct procedure, but can still have them listed on the companies office share register, as it is done on online..
It would be great to have the issues of Mr. Hubbard outlined biefly so we could all be on the same page.
More like John Key made damn
More like John Key made damn sure he wasn't around when the goon squad came for AH. That's known in his game as 'plausible deniability'.
They don't call him the
They don't call him the Smiling Assassin, for nothing.
One possible interpretation
One possible interpretation for AH bringing up John Key is of course that seen in the typical fim noir ie that the former is flying the warning flag to Key - along the lines of 'I know where the bodies are buried - you'd better get your ass over here and help me JK'.
That's an interesting
That's an interesting thought.
Some nice conspiracy theory’s
Some nice conspiracy theory’s going here boys, do you honestly believe Simon Power would have made a move if the was potentially any dirt on his leader? You seem to be caught up in the excitement of the witch hunt
Almost everyone involved in
Almost everyone involved in the running of the other failed finance companies are known to have been up to no good, yet where are the SFO and Simon Power concentrating their efforts? Hubbard and his businesses.
Why?
Because certain senior members of this government invested a lot of their own money with Hubbard and they now want it all back.
Watson and Hotchins and many others live it up in the islands, while building mansions with their ill-gotten-gains, and remain unmolested by the SFO and Simon Power. Only poor old Aland Hubbard, beloved within his community and still trusted by his customers and clients, is being hauled over the coals.
The moral of this story is NEVER accept business from a politician. Ever.
Who is it you think is
Who is it you think is responsible if it's not Hubbard?
I put it to you Mr Hubbard
I put it to you Mr Hubbard that if everything is found to be above board then PLEASE sue the ass off the SFO! Please! Hammer them like no tommorrow
Yes sue them because NZ
Yes sue them because NZ doesn't need an organisation policing the financial industry. They should be permitted to do whatever they feel like.
"I think if Mr Key, who knows
"I think if Mr Key, who knows me, was in New Zealand, he wouldn't have done that," Hubbard told Radio New Zealand"
That sounds like cronyism. I think John Key needs to come out to clarify this. Otherwise it gives the impression that John Key interferes with the law enforcement.
I am sure everything is
I am sure everything is "kosher" but if that was queens birthday weekend and two weeks later the documentation still cant be produced I am pleased the authorities did what they did. Under E dealing a mortgage takes 2 minutes to register and shows up immediately. Hubbard is no doubt the most honest guy around but his admin and back office is truly appalling and taking into account SCF the authorities cannot give him the benefit of the doubt.
If these loans were formally
If these loans were formally documented then you would think that there would be multiple originals (one each for the borrower and lender), solicitors certificates and multiple other documents referring to these loans.
Time will tell but it would be unusual for a lender to send its solicitor all of its original documentation when dealing with a change in terms. If the solicitor dealt with the original loan they should already have a copy.
In an age of cell phones, email, scanners and faxes misunderstandings as to the location of documents can be sorted almost instantly.
Quite a telling comment that
Quite a telling comment that he has a couple of chats with Key and he thinks he is protected from normal practices. No doubt for the last 40 years he has been in charge and no one brave enough has said "hey this is how things should be done now".
Quite sad but at 82 he is 18 years past retirement.
And does that automatically
And does that automatically make him dishonest? Compare his record to Key's, dig around a little and you may find that in the late 80's, in the US, John Key was up to no good at all. Keywords "Andy Krieger"
told
told ya.....interest.co.nz/comment/reply/49850/551746#comment-551746
1.stevel Says: Your comment
1.stevel Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
July 6th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Warning bells sounding 12mths ago, I guess they had a year to sort it out.......hidden away in moderation of course...
Bernard, could I, should I
Bernard, could I, should I re-post the above moderated/deleted post of over a year ago?
This guy backs the theory....
.................interest.co.nz/comment/reply/49880/552502#comment-552502
Who would go into a loan
Who would go into a loan without getting a copy of the loan doc yourself? - no one on this planet I know.
How can he have operated
How can he have operated successfully for this long and to this extent with that level of poor document processing. Surely other people are processing these documents and have systems for there retrieval.
Why would the Chairman of a multi million dollar fund be doing document processing himself.
It's a bit smelly.
Any investment organisation should have a low rating if there back office processes are this incompetent. Kinda weird.
Chris Lee, the discredited
Chris Lee, the discredited Kapiti financial adviser, kept on praising Mr Hubbard through thick and thin. How seriously deep has Lee's knowledge ever been or is it just whatever suited his back pocket?
Quite sad but at 82 he is 18
Quite sad but at 82 he is 18 years past retirement.
What an ignorant comment!.
Can not believe the crap that people come out with (then again perhaps I can )small minded losers who have mostly achieved bugger all.
I have never met Mr Hubbard but NZ whould be a worse place without him.
Means well I'm sure, but we
Means well I'm sure, but we do not lend money on a handshake anymore and unfortunately at 82 opening the mail and handling a 2 billion dollar war chest is just plainly not appropriate, !!
Is Warren Buffet at a few
Is Warren Buffet at a few months from 80 years old presiding over 80 billion appropriate?
Yes Warren Buffet is a great
Yes Warren Buffet is a great arms length investor whilst Hubbard is a get your hands dirty participant in his own businesses. BIG difference.
Buffet has 240,000 employees
Buffet has 240,000 employees including some of the smartest on earth.
if you were to type --coys
if you were to type --coys directors search --and look up a topical name it could possibly make interesting reading --no wonder he,s not up to speed with his paperwork
Lots of land/lifestyle blocks
Lots of land/lifestyle blocks went on sale today in Timaru.
Hubbard screwd up big
Hubbard screwd up big time
Key hasn't got the nuts to look Hubbard in the eye.
He's hiding behind Powers skirt.
Keys balls are still in the vice at M.L. and the bankers
hand is firmly on the handle.
Perhaps the most balanced
Perhaps the most balanced reporting to date on the matter;
http://www.listener.co.nz/issue/3654/features/15459/a_south_canterbury_t...
Captures the character, as well as the circumstances superbly.
What's really sad is that
What's really sad is that Hubbard thought having dealings with politicians would be of benefit to him in the tough times. He wasn't savvy enough to understand that politicians don't have friends or loyalties. AH may as well have been laundering money for the mafia. In fact, he may have been better off doing business with the mob than with government ministers.
Too true mate.
Too true mate.
Failure of proper
Failure of proper asset-liability management is the main characteristic of all finance company fiascoes. Interest rate mis-match, maturity mis-match, risk mis-match in getting short term funds and lending out for long-term investment projects will one day catch up. Especially after the GFC, these risks are heightened all over the world. Only Banks with huge capital and deposit-base and strict regulations can survive and they too need Government backing and support in the form of guarantees in the new scenario. Companies like SCF are always vulnerable, especially with one-man shows and weak management. We are now in the reverse setting to 'Nothing succeeds like success'. It is now 'failure hastens failure'.
The directors and mangement
The directors and mangement of related companies are either gullible or greedy in that they did not know due process was not in place. Shareholders in all companies shoud vote to restrict any board appointee to hold no more than 5 directorships as it requires 3 to 4 days a month of their time to perform in a manner that meets the renumeration paid, above 5 boards is greed.
The CEO of SCF apart from his management role is on 13 boards. Are those shareholders getting value for money?
The directors and mangement
The directors and mangement of related companies are either gullible or greedy in that they did not know due process was not in place. Shareholders in all companies shoud vote to restrict any board appointee to hold no more than 5 directorships as it requires 3 to 4 days a month of their time to perform in a manner that meets the renumeration paid, above 5 boards is greed.
The CEO of SCF apart from his management role is on 13 boards. Are those shareholders getting value for money?
The directors and management
The directors and management in related companies were either gullible or greedy in not knowing due process was not being followed. A warning to shareholders everywhere that a director should give between 3 to 4 days a month as per their level of renumeration to do the job properly. In the case of SCF the CEO, apart from this I would expect full time position is on 13 other boards. Shareholders should vote that any board appointee is restricted to being on no more than 4 other boards.
Good referral, Kate, but
Good referral, Kate, but poignantly,
"..Associates say he operated on a handshake..according to one source, who says he was very self-assured and strong-willed, but underestimated the role of good process. “And he had been getting away with it for 60 years.”
The S.F.O had better dig
The S.F.O had better dig something up to justify their Gestapo tactics ,or this is really going to look bad for the Govt,He doesn't live a playboy millionaire life style or in a $30,000,000 house and has always been loyal to his clients. What a humble gentleman Allan is.This is very hard to comprehend when the S.F.O has let convicted gangsters from other finance companies walk free
The SFO is "just obeying
The SFO is "just obeying orders". Notice the major effort they're putting into this? Notice the lack of major effort they've put into nailing any other finance company? Join the dots and follow the money: people in high places want their "investments" back, and if the investment isn't there to recoup, they will crucify Mr. Hubbard out of spite.
Scenario 1: Honest Hubbard
Scenario 1: Honest Hubbard and his wife get absolutley slaughtered by the government for being honest but not dotting the ts.
Scenario 2: Watson and Hotchin dot their ts via high powered lawyers/ accountants, however systimatically subject the investing public to legalised robbery with the assistance of those proffessional advisors..... and enjoy their spoils and lavish lifestyles.
Just proves that there is no justice in the world....Hubbard is an easy target for the government because his old fashioned values/ business methods.
In biblical terms he will be the sacraficial lamb....
Ok Berney lets put it another
Ok Berney lets put it another way so you don't delete this one who would be inclined to flag the SOF of poor Mr Hubbards not so koshaness??? Ummm someone (hey not naming anyone) who might be in line to get the lot for next to nothing. Kosha mate??
right on,anon 10 13am
right on,anon 10 13am
I'm calling BULLSHIT on
I'm calling BULLSHIT on everything Hubbard said...
Firstly, Power wouldn't have moved without Key being consulted. Key is only ever a phone call away and ringing him at 2am or whatever wouldn't be a problem with such a serious issue. key would have had the briefing papers like the other senior ministers and they would have agreed the decision.
Secondly, Hubbard sounds like he is all over the place. Any decent lender would have their files in order all the time and would NEVER send them out to the lawyers... All mortgages are registered electronically these days so I can't see why he would ever need to pass any files out of the office..
More like Hubbard was saying 'come back in two weeks so I have a chance to re-create everything so there is no smoking gun'...
I don't buy his line for a second - regulators can how things work if you carefully explain it with the documents at hand. Hubbard didn't convince them everything was 'kosher' because he didn't have the documents at hand and he couldn't explain it.
You've been collared old man and now we will really see how Alan Hubbard 'works'.
Powerful people in govt are
Powerful people in govt are owed money by Hubbard.
They had no money in the other finance companies, so those companies were of no interest to those people in govt.
They thought slapping the gg on Hubbard's companies would save their money until they saw the state of Hubbard's books and realised that there was no saving Hubbard or his companies.
So they sent the big guns in to confiscate anything of value as recompense and are intent of punishing Hubbard for losing their money.
This isn't business now, it's personal.
Boris great conspiracy
Boris great conspiracy theory. I am calling you out.
Ever thought that maybe the best solution is just to let this play out. If SCF falls over then so be it but how is investigating them now going to help all those perpetual share holders who are not covered by the GG. All the SFO are doing is undermining the confidence in SCF now. What is poking round the files going to achieve? That some paper work is not in order. Crooks are crooks and Hubbard is not one.
Chris Carter still does not
Chris Carter still does not think he has done anything wrong either. What you concider to be 'crooked' as viewed by Alan Hubbard may fit the same bill. The philosophy of "well it all worked out in the end" is not the same as "playing the game by the rules". That is what this investigation will discover.
Were the rules broken? Yes?
Were the rules broken? Yes? Then guilty. Hubbard, Carter, makes no difference.
We have had enough of the
We have had enough of the financial industry screwing investors.
The SFO sees or suspects something is wrong...move in without warning, no chance for anyone to cover tracks or suck the coffers dry and no preferential treatment for anyone.
Hubbard calling on the old tie network is BS.
If there is a suspicion, be it a P lab , a drunk driver, or a financial instition...same treatment.
I certainly hope Hubbard comes out clean...time will tell.
But the SFO if have suspicions, good on them.
If this sort of thing have being going on a few yrs back their would be a lot less cover ups, milking/hiding funds owed to a lot of investors who have lost a lot to date.
If anyone needs to blame someone for the SFO heavy handedness, blame the unscrupulous financial companies and directors that have got way with it in the past.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/busine
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/3845063/A-look-at-the-nations-watchdogs/
I've worked at a lot of big
I've worked at a lot of big banks over the years. And I can say that in my experience, if you're ever in trouble with a mortgage, insist that the bank produce the original mortgage document. You could have odds as good as 50/50 that they can't.
If Hubbard can't locate one or two, well that's just how things operate. If these guys went into a big bank they'd likely find the same. Say what you like about 'should', I'm telling you what really is. And I can't afford to say any more than that.
IMAO Had that with BNSW (when
IMAO
Had that with BNSW (when they existed) selling a house
BNZ When changing banks/loans. NAB and Kiwi still had them on file.
FYI to all John Key has now
FYI to all
John Key has now been reported by NBR as saying he knew of and supported the decision to put Hubbard into statutory management.
I have updated the story.
cheers
Bernard
Of course he knew. It was
Of course he knew. It was timed so that he'd be out of the firing line.
Surely Bernard you can not be
Surely Bernard you can not be so wet behind the ears that you cant see the orchestration here. Go down there Bernard, go to a few brand new Farm Dairies at 6am in the morning and you will find out for yourself who is owed the Dosh.Anon is right. Stop talking to your mates up there get out of the office and talk to some real NZers
are there no journos left in
are there no journos left in this country who can actually investigate and get to the real story. Stop listening to political handlers, get a spine and asketh the real questions
Failure of proper
Failure of proper asset-liability management is the main characteristic of all finance company fiascoes. Interest rate mis-match, maturity mis-match, risk mis-match in getting short term funds and lending out for long-term investment projects will one day catch up. Especially after the GFC, these risks are heightened all over the world. Only Banks with huge capital and deposit-base and strict regulations can survive and they too need Government backing and support in the form of guarantees in the new scenario. Companies like SCF are always vulnerable, especially with one-man shows and weak management. We are now in the reverse setting to 'Nothing succeeds like success'. It is now 'failure hastens failure'.
But this one is linked to SFC
But this one is linked to SFC which should never have received a GG. Interesting that they have been downgraded now. If the ratings agency had done its job previously??? This is political. A GG to protect certain monies and now a clean-up Wake up
Agreed. All financial
Agreed. All financial institutions be they banks or finance companies ultimately run on confidence, especially when they are trying to recover after loans go bad(that has been an issue for all lenders not just SCF!)
The issue I have with the SFO is they are undermining any confidence in SCF by investigating Hubbard. Who are they benefiting by doing this? All they are doing is potentially stuffing SCF. They would have been better to let it play our naturally. Where were they with Hanover etc??? Great job Power.
"All financial institutions
"All financial institutions be they banks or finance companies ultimately run on confidence..."
I don't agree at all, and sincerely hope you're wrong!
Hence the expression Conman;
Hence the expression Conman; the Con bit being Confidence.
If SCF costs me money, can I
If SCF costs me money, can I sue Standard and Poors who had them qualifying for the GG when obviously they shouldnt have qualified
i remember when I gave Mr
i remember when I gave Mr Hubbard money to invest he asked me how I got it and whether I'd miss it. I got a receipt and then didn't hear anything for ages and ages. People were saying things like "you make sure you get those share certificates" and "have you rung up HC & Co yet?". Eventually I got an investment statement and it was a pleasant surprise. Only one year had a modest return but overall I doubt I could have done much better. I figured he is the sort of person you have to 'leave him to it' and not interfere.
have you had any of that
have you had any of that money back yet? Do you know where it is invested? Would you have have given it to him so easily if he drove a flash car? Is that why he does not drive a flash car?
Can't you just have a little
Can't you just have a little faith in human nature. This man has the admiration and respect of many, many people in south Canterbury. He has been operating in his old fashioned way since before most of us were born.
I am really struggling with
I am really struggling with how the National Government can be so blatantly incompetent when dealing with the likes of Hotchin, Watson, Bryers, and the rest of the extended Finance Family but it seems so easy for them to line up an 82 year old that lives in an old house, gives away his money and does dialysis 3 times a week.
Hubbard has clearly made some big business mistakes but he has integrity and will no doubt put every dollar he has behind trying to get the right outcome. A failing businessman going down with his ship seems far more honorable. Hotchin and Watson meantime are only ever interested in themselves, and were first in the life-raft.
Of all the dodgy finance people out there Hubbard is the one I'm least interested in persecuting. There are hundreds of better witches to burn first.
Will Interest.co.nz and their
Will Interest.co.nz and their commenters be making a donation?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/banking-finance/3847009/Suppo...
Maybe. But perhaps not John
Maybe. But perhaps not John Key!
Mr Key said: "No, he's not right. I was advised before I left the country that it was likely ministers would have to group together on Sunday to make that decision. I was aware of the decision they made and I support them in the decision they made."
Those ministers have a lot of
Those ministers have a lot of money "invested" with Hubbard but now they want it back.
have you had any of that
have you had any of that money back yet?
Income is reinvested. When Mr Hubbard retires another fund manager will take over. I'm not going to rush to take my money out "just in case"... "it will all come out in the wash" my mother used to say.
Do you know where it is invested?
I get a list of shares bought sold and cash on hand.
Would you have have given it to him so easily if he drove a flash car?
I had heard about Mr Hubbard from a close source years ago and another person at the time of investing.
I would have done a lot better if I'd bought property (I only have the family home) but that is the injustice of the system.
Hi Anon mouse Are your shares
Hi Anon mouse
Are your shares held by an independent custodian? (eg Guardian Trust). By the sound of this I think this is unlikely?
I think you should withdraw your money ASAP at least until Mr Hubbarb is cleared as you think he will be. The SFO isn't there for cups of tea. You can always reinvest it later with Mr Hubbard or with someone else.
I have to give 2 months
I have to give 2 months notice so the shares can be sold(?).
I'm betting I'll come out o.k. Alan Hubbard's reward is his reputation. Having said that the Titanic could have struck an iceberg and the Captain is in denial.
Any connection between John
Any connection between John Key/Bill English and George Kerr would be interesting to be explored in the light of all this.
no connection
no connection
"Allan Hubbard told Radio New
"Allan Hubbard told Radio New Zealand he had been denied natural justice and would not have been put into statutory management if Prime Minister John Key had been in the country"
The headline should be worry regardless of what the man has or has not done. He is saying that the PM would have got involved. I certainly hope he is wrong on that count.
I do seem to remember stories on this site some time ago that would lead you to believe this could have some validity.
the problem with Chris Carter
the problem with Chris Carter is that we are all over the fact that he is gay.Ages ago. everytime he opens his mouth it is obvious that He isnt!!!! He has the problem not the rest of us!!!!! It is time he grew up.Shows what a bunch of spoilt miscreants Helen was having to keep breastfed behind the scenes.