By Bernard Hickey
A hole has just quietly opened up in our population and our economy.
It is a hole that should make home builders, shop keepers, economists, politicians and the elderly voters behind them very nervous.
It is a hole that could fill itself in or have to be filled artificially. But if this hole remains unfilled, New Zealand’s economy faces some ugly choices within the next 10 to 20 years.
Demography expert Professor Natalie Jackson from Waikato University identified this population hole at a symposium for Chief Financial Officers this week in Auckland.
She showed how a significant proportion of 15-19 year olds in 2006 have left the country in the last four years. Jackson displayed a bar chart showing how a chunk of the age group that should have flowed through unchanged from one era to the next has simply upped and left.
Many would say this is the normal process of young New Zealanders claiming their birth right to have an ‘Overseas Experience’ or OE in Australia, the UK, Europe, Asia or the United States. But it is something more than that.
The signs are many more are leaving than is usual and they are returning at a much reduced rate than in the past. The same bar chart showed only a small increase in the number of 25-29 year olds when measured four years later as 30-34 year olds. The next cohort up from 35-39 also shows a disturbing lack of returnees.
A whole generation of young New Zealanders appear to be voting with their feet.
Statistics on the proportion of New Zealand-born graduates are just as worrying. More than a quarter of New Zealand’s graduates live overseas now, which is almost 10 times the rate seen for Australian-born graduates.
Some optimists argue there’s not necessarily a problem.
They say that either the emigrees will return for New Zealand’s superior lifestyle when they are ready to have a family or we’ll be able to import fresh skilled migrants to fill the gap.
Increasingly, however, these emigrees are not returning. Many have established families and careers and households overseas and are reluctant to come back. Either the economics of higher wages overseas force them to stay, or local family ties are too strong to break. The high cost of housing in New Zealand’s biggest cities is also a disincentive, particularly now any property they are selling in Britain or America is worth much less because of housing price and currency slumps.
It is a particular issue for New Zealand’s young men. If they partner up with a British or Australian woman they are often convinced or choose to stay close to their partners’ families overseas when the key stage in the life cycle of having children comes around. The maternal grandmothers often exert a stronger pull than the paternal grandmothers.
If this hole remains unfilled then New Zealand faces a demographic crunch over the next 10-20 years as baby boomers retire and there is a lack of working age taxpayers to fund their national superannuation and public health care costs. The demographics of the retiring baby boom is bad enough already without this gap opening up in the generation who will have to pay.
Possible solutions
So what could be done to fill in the hole or ensure it fills back in naturally?
Firstly, family house prices in the big cities have to become more affordable to tempt back the family formers as they make that decision.
Secondly, the government should welcome back with open arms the partners picked up by New Zealanders in their travels, regardless of marital status. That way we get two for the price of one, so to speak.
Thirdly, we must strive to boost the number and income of high paid and interesting jobs in the big cities. This is the toughest task of all. It requires a fundamental shift in the productivity of our economy, which in turns requires deep structural changes in our physical and economic infrastructure.
Are we ready, willing and able to start filling the hole?
122 Comments
Speaking as a 15 year expat, this all rings pretty true to me. I would honestly love to return, but the NZD and home prices would both have to adjust to more realistic levels for me to contemplate it. I still feel some optimism that that will eventually happen, but I don't think it's going to be pain-free for those back home.
Mark.
I did not read any of the articles – even not Bernhard’s – just the headlines.
A new dimension
The world is changing and fast. Next to massive worldwide economic, financial and environmental problems more political problems are emerging. Of course New Zealand has it’s problems, which we have to deal with, but hopefully also with a closer focus what’s around us.
Under the current scenario, how much longer are America/ Europe and it’s wider population safe ? E.g. - an old nuclear power station can go off, high wages vs. unemployment vs. high living costs, more political unrest in the States/ Europe and Middle East, the PIIGS, etc.
As I many times described - yes we do have our problems here, but the “Pacific Rim” is regarded by millions of the western population - as a more or less peaceful and safe region. The pressure for our immigration department (government) will increase enormously. Under the current desperate NZeconomic picture -how many are allow to (im)migrate - under some circumstances 2-3 million ??!!
What are the consequences for us - for our economy in such a strong eventuality ? I just say for a start : More “Olly – olla” !!!
Hi Bernard,
It seems to me that the most disaffected people in this country are Generation X&Y. There is much talk about new political parties being formed on the left and right.
My solution - There must be someone out there smart enough to start an X&Y party with the main political mandate to raise the retirement age on a graduation scale to 67 and also some sort of means test for superannuation. Whilst this is an unpopular move as a quick scan of our parliamentary make up points to the majority being baby boomers, the fact is something must change.
We are going to move in the next 12 months and the main reason is that it is just too hard to do business here. Barriers everywhere and a mentality of general laziness abounds.
There would be many other policies that this X&Y party would have and I feel particularly strong about Gen X being the most disaffected as we were the first to be told by the baby boomers that we had to pay for everything, but I must go and pack now for my 2 week trip across the ditch and in the meantime I will put my bullet proof vest on.
amazing that we were both posting on this almost simultaneously
I reckon a really strong and credible new party aimed at the needs of "Future NZ" could definitely get 7-10% of the vote - that could be enough to have real influence
I agree Gen X and Y are really disaffected (its just we are such an apathetic group), the baby Boomers are just so smug and complacent, the whole system needs a really big kick up the ass
You interested in getting something going Bernard? How about an opinion piece for a start?
A new right of centre group , " Reform NZ " is seeking paid up members ; they need 500 to register with the Electoral Commission as a political party . Some ACT party reject is behind it all .
............ Neither Labour nor National seem able to understand that the world has changed , that globalisation is real , and is here to stay ........ And if we wish our productive citizens and our businesses to stay domiciled in NZ , we must compete with overseas markets ( not just with Austalia , JK ) on taxation rates and on the onerous weight of bureaucracy , the red-tape .
Zombification appears to have bedevilled both the Key crew and the Goofettes .
I think that future generations will look back at the government decree of retirement at age 65 with the same degree of amusement that we currently get from seeing a gramophone player or an old radio-gram machine .
.......... Even the Gummster ( admittedly not the brightest spark in the camp-fire ) finds the whole concept of " retirement " as truely bizarre .
Correct , the Gen X&Y are finding it very hard to get ahead in this low -wage, agrariran economy impossible to get onto the property ladder , and they are leaving .
I have three kids , one will enter the workplace shortly , and I am actively encouraging her to go across the ditch to use her skills there . She has a four year science degree , and I have not allowed her to get a student loan , so she starts with a clean slate .
There is absolutely nothing to keep her here , low wages, high taxes , ridiculous property prices, expensive food are all mjor constraints .
We need more than green hills and trees to be a meaningful, wealthy country .
Previuos Labour governmetns have done everyting for the unskilled who produce nothing but more layabouts.
The wealthy are resented and taxed to death , but they are the only real producers of capital, employment and wealth in any modern economy.
The wealthy should be encouraged to create as much wealth as possible .
There has been no effort at Capital Creation or to stimulate savings , so we depend on the goodwill of others who invest here.
The result is a stagnant economy , a mickey mouse sized stock exchange , piss poor capital markets and handouts for everyone who are not keen to work
Lots of good comments in this thread that ring true. There is certainly a disparity between the younger generations and the older. The latter keeping a strangle hold on high property prices so they can finance their lifestyle. The former finding it difficult to get a foot in the door and establish a life for themselves.
Perhaps if it wasn't so difficult to get that first foot in the door you'd have a lot more younger people staying here.
But NZ'ers want it all, decent sized sections with a lawn and garden but at the same time no urban sprawl.. certainly nobody who already has a property wants to pay to upgrade the water, drainage and sewerage systems to cope with new development.. but at the same time lets keep the migrants flooding in to support our property prices. Shows that there is an entrenched belief among us that we deserve to have it all, but should have to give nothing away.. if the last two years has shown us anything we should be working on realiging that belief with reality, peak oil and the rest of it.
"The wealthy are resented and taxed to death , but they are the only real producers of capital, employment and wealth in any modern economy."
The wealthy are resented because they pay next to no taxes (if any) and ship all their profits into offshore taxhavens.
All the while paying minimum wage and bleating about how that's still too much, and lobbying for things like the 90-day abuse-and-discard law.
"The wealthy are resented and taxed to death"
Yet in most economies they effectivly dodge [most] tax and indeed have got significantly weathier in the last 30 years while bringing the world's economies to ruin....so this is obviously not the case....
"but they are the only real producers of capital, employment and wealth in any modern economy."
When the top 10% get richer and the bottom 90% do not that is not creating wealth for all, thats parasitic....and in fact we are now seeing yet another jobless recovery where the GDP rises but there are no more jobs....
It shouldnt be confused that there are [rich] business ppl whos capital and company(s) produce goods, jobs and real wealth and deserve their wealth and status and should not be resented. Then there are the financial parasites and their capital who produce no goods and in fact are detrimental to both workers and real businesses....Goldman Sach is called the vampire squid for good reason....its very apt and deserving and in fact a few hangings of such wouldnt go amiss.
"Previous Labour governments" yes I can accept that Labour has mis-managed the UK economy and the NZ one, but so did National/Tories before that. WFF is a disaster, its an encouragment to have more children that can be afforded, and what Goff wants to do if he gets in will be a disaster.....but National have been no better and will probably be no better.....Politics has become a popularity contest and the winner gets to syphon off the cream for their respective core supporters while the ones stupid enough to vote for them get to watch...
regards
Good luck with that vest...
The reality is it's much easier to buy a one way ticket on airnz.co.nz or jetstar.co.nz than to organise a political movement.
But maybe the grannies and grandads might one day see the light.
I must get Winston Peters in for an interview...
cheers
Bernard
good - if quite depressing - piece in today's SST by Rod Oram:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4680571/Time-for-a-cultural-revolution
the country is in a rut and something needs to be done!!!!
We really need a bright young political party with inspired leadership and strong financial backing
I remember this being covered back in about 06, or just after. Context then was slightly different as it was centred around the lack of men in the early 30's age group. Due the reasons about family ties mentioned in the article above, the women come back but the men stay away.
But what I really find amusing is that it isn't considered a problem because they will all come back due to the better lifestyle.
Well that lifestyle is quickly being eroded and I wouldn't be so sure about that.
When I grew up through the 70's NZ was generally a safe place to bring children, I don't think you could say that now. And it isn't like I lived in a swanky sheltered suburb either.
However I think their will be an exodus back again when the GFC part II kicks in and the rest of the world is in turmoil. The flight to safety will see the NZD collapse and it will then be more attractive for expats to return.
We have become a pathetic bunch of nancies, but I think that may change also aided by massive cuts in bureucracy.
C'mon Matt , intorduce land tax and make property even more unaffordable?
High land prices are the real problem with local council fees and resource consent adding $100,000.00 to the price of a section
Its ridiculous in a country with so much underulitised land around cities
Been working since I was 15. Went to Uni part time at 25. Funny thing is I have found the harder I worked the luckier I have got - people keep telling me that. But to have a decent retirement I now need to go and earn bigger money with my partner in business.
By decent I mean lots of holidays etc. - am aiming big here. By the way the more tax I pay the more money I am earning - I don't begrudge a single penny of the tax. Here's something for you:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” - Theodore Roosevelt
Should have stayed at university a little longer perhaps....
The whole 'hard work' argument is unconvincing and usually comes from types that think "I made it so why can't everyone else be the same as me".
anonentity : Probably a full 50 % ( my cynical guess ) of your " Tax burden " is wasted operating the bureaucratic machine itself , or in idiotic welfare packages , commissions , and the like .
..... For decades our problem has been that governments pander to the big enterprises in NZ , and pay scant regard to small businesses , start-up , entrepreneurs . The future does not lie in ramping up farm production , nor in bringing more bus loads of tourists into the land .
The emergence of small , yet internationally known companies such as Weta Workshops or Kathmandu , indicates where our future lies . Encouraging more innovation is the key , not squeezing extra milk out of the cows , or cramming more bodies onto the tourist traps .
I have always found it quite odd that in these stories about the NZ diaspora, that one of the main reasons why New Zealanders leave is never mentioned. Probably because it's not PC to do so I suppose.
And that is?
Because the departed just can't stand other New Zealanders.
As one ex-pat said to me once when I was living in Boston. New Zealand, he said, is a great country. It's just a shame about the people.
And he’s right. Look at our attitudes. Tall poppy syndrome. Entrenched socialism in the population that stops wealth and opportunity from developing sadly made worse now by an infusion of the GE Free lettuce lunatics. A lack of personal responsibility and accountability at all levels of society. Special race based rights. Excessive welfare. MMP. A can’t do that attitude, that stifles innovation and invention. A lack of genuinely smart and educated people that get it. The list can go on and on.
very good points David.
"A can’t do that attitude, that stifles innovation and invention """
Kiwis talk themselves up as highly inventive - I think (with some notable exceptions) that is a myth.
I would also add that we are quite a negative, insecure "chip on shoulder" nation. There is so much "passive aggressive" undertone in our individual and collective soul. We are excessively blokesy and parochial, intellectualism is almost frowned upon.
I also laugh at the "kiwis are so friendly" myth. I think kiwis generally are quite rude, tribal and unfriendly! I find most nationalities in the world friendlier and more polite than kiwis.
This is one of the reasons why I quite like living in Auckland. There are fewer kiwis around!
to true--my mates in the deep south reckon there is a secret movement in which the whole community are members---the name of this association is C. A. V. E---citizens against virtually everything-----the aussie,s have a rather disparaging name for kiwi,s-- 2nd hand poms---which unfortunately in lots of case,s is most apt
i keep coming back to xrate...becoz we're a small, open commod/ tourism econ, property, jobs, migration etc are all quickly and fundamentally effected by xrate. i think the big story this year will be chinese inflation and the pbc's efforts to curb it (this is already happening). aust, and by proxy nz, are very exposed to this. just how it plays out with xrate is hard to predict. bottom line is if the kiwi remains 70+cents we're not goin 2 c growth here over 2%. a possible perverse effect of a chinese slowdown may be capital flow into comod driven currencies like ours and appreciation of the kiwi...jeez, there goes my rich pommie clients buildin houses on the peninsular!
I can't help but think of this piece that someone else posted here recently.
http://www.realitysandwich.com/money_and_crisis_civilization
Perhaps the sooner we head towards the suggestions at the end of the article then we might get some people back.
Cheers Scarfie - makes a nonsense of Bernards article. I suspected, with his non-engagement and lack of rebuttal, that we'd end up with one of these.
I spent Saturday night in the 'affirmative' team at the annual Hampden Debates, sandwiched between an Economics Prof from Canberra, and an Engineering Prof from 'Canty. The National Party defaulted (I don't think Jaqui Deans would have been up to it, in any case) and the Labour Party, led by Pete Hodgson, took their place.
Topic was 'as economic growth is a stupid goal, we should wean ourselves off fossil fuels'.
It's an upside-down / backwards way of looking at it.....
my spiel is at http://powerdownkiwi.wordpress.com/
enjoy.
I wish half the commenters here could have heard it. Make that all of them. The less people who share something, the more they have each. Bernard absolutely - despite everything folk like me have put here, clearly doesn't get it.
pdk
keep hammering away. I'm becoming greener by the day.
I agree peak oil and overconsumption are one of the problems, fueled by debt.
But we still have to do something to keep our youngsters here.
Welcome your thoughts on how we can do it in a resource constrained world.
cheers
Bernard
(FYI I've fixed your link so people can bounce straight in from here)
Bernhard - as a nation we have to produce our daily needs and stop importing- especially infrastructure needs in transport, telecommunication and energy, which costs the tax- payer billions we don’t have. As a nation we have to learn about sustainability & modesty - away from greed away from stupid plastic consumerism.
We import quality widgets in the billions, while exporting quality Kiwis - in $ billions – what an economy ??
Easy - set them to education, largely sciences, maths and physics.
Set them to low-energy, high-tech solutions to agriculture - solar-powered remote, GPS/laser located, earth-tilling seedsowing weed identifying/clearing, harvesting and composting robot tractors would be my wish.
I also think that the intergenerational thing doesn't need money, to happen.
In the late '40's, one of the Channel Islands didn't have the dosh for a Hall, which they perceived as needed. Token chits were issued for goods or labour donated, redeemable upon attending events in the edifice. Sure, a 'value' is involved. Maybe Money can stay, but profit has to be gone.
I suggest a youngster gains 'chits' by helping old folk, doing socially-useful work (a hornets nest to define, agreed) which are cashed in upon old age. The old can gain chits by babysitting, passing on skills/information.
Basically, we're too unknowedged, en masse, for what is coming. I still read a non-fiction book a day, learning. We should encourage that - consumption via advertising has dumbed us down far too far.
I can see a time very soon, where brick-an-mortar universities give way to on-line skyping, one lecturer to several hundred, and less-skilled support staff. Cheaper education, and releases the talented for more real research - which we'll absolutely need.
The wee problem is being in existing debt, until either the system crashes, or we get repossessed. A bit of collective self-discipline would do that very quickly, but we lack not only that, but the leadership with enough clarity and honesty, to tell us what is needed.
A country which, en masse, votes for GDP growth, is either too stupid, or too immature, for where we have to go.
Education is the absolute key - in fact, the De Bono approach to thinking (my Dad taught me to turn a problem "inside out, upside down and back-to front" - same kind of thing, and you can get there heueristically) should probably be a mandatory series of units all the way up.
You can't anticipate the problems absolutely, but you can give them the skills to address them, and it can be done much cheaper - which reduces the social debt too.
What about Architects Murray? Hehe.
To be honest I am pretty frustrated with the quality of learning and am going to give a couple of other things a go this year, if they don't pan out then maybe I will go back next year.
I beleive I am capable of designing good buildings now, without another three years of indoctrination and then another three of work experience.
But you hint at the fact that our universities have become too focussed on ticking the boxes and obtaining a piece of paper to hang on the wall. They have lost their way from real world, real value learning.
I think the original Greek universities were a lot more informal.
Christopher Alexander outlines a better model in his "A Pattern Language".
I also agree with your other post regarding PhD's and again you are eluding to a way that academics are trained to think. They can slip into believeing that because they have been trained in a method of thinking that this specialist way is superior, but in reality a lot become quite linear in their outlook.
Set them to low-energy, high-tech solutions to agriculture - solar-powered remote, GPS/laser located, earth-tilling seedsowing weed identifying/clearing, harvesting and composting robot tractors would be my wish.
GPS steered tractors are a reality PDK and have been for some years - boring to drive though. I enjoy a driving stint on a tractor now and again. Don't like to think I could be replaced by a robot! :-(
We are getting more high tech in many aspects of agriculture - robotic milking is one area but it needs big improvements to get a stronghold in the NZ situation. Milking sheds are getting more high tech too.
In relation to effluent irrigation we have this sort of thing http://www.regenerated.co.nz/regen/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar… This isn't an endorsement of the product just an example.
The biggest hurdle for high tech in agriculture is the lack of reliable fast internet/mobile phone reception in rural NZ. The govt is talking about copper wire based technology being phased in over 5 years. At home in rural BoP I use a true wireless internet service - why the heck would I want to rely on a copper based service after having wireless? Our farm is located within 30kms of Invercargill on flat land and we can't get reliable mobile phone service. The above weblink shows the options available to farmers - so long as we can have reliable internet/phone reception. Without that this sort of technology is useless for a significant portion of rural NZ
You would love my system Murray as I had to get inventive to get it.
No broadband available from Telecom in my area, despite being only 40 Kms in a straight line from the Auckland CBD(not far enough for my liking). The dial up was just as apalling and at best would get half speed, in the evenings it would sometimes stop.
Anyway I found out about the Kordia network and that there is a repeater on top of Moirs Hill, about 12 Kms away. Problem is you have to be within line of sight of the repeater to get the wireless service.
Solution was I had to install the dish myself about six metres up a Totara tree on adjacent council land:)
No as grunty as the copper wire version, but at 1Mb download speed it is acceptable. I haven't taken the stop of going to wireless phone yet, but may do so. Trouble is the service is probably out on one day a month on average.
Half price or less than the farmside service, with further savings if I go for wireless phone also.
Haha would like to see them try. It is just a tree in no mans land on the side of the road.
I would tell them where to go if they tried. If really pushed I would deny all knowlege and tell them to go to my service provider. That would tie them up in their own beurecracy for sometime I imagine. The way to sink the regime is to snow it under its own BS.
Easier to seek forgiveness than ask permission sometimes:)
Hoping just quietly that the leaky homes thing will result in big slashes to local government.
too true
enjoy this: (note the piccy caption)
http://www.oamarumail.co.nz/local/news/debate-attracts-big-audience/394…
Casual O - I hope you realise my 'tractor' and your are not the same. There isn't the portable liquid horsepower to keep your kind going.
If a finite resource is chewed into at an exponential rate, you can expect a sine-wave-like gaussian curve. The area underneath represents the resource. If you reached the (half-used-up) peak in say, 100 years, you could expect 18-20 years for tha last half.
With oil, all bets are off, because it drives the very activities which demand it......
But even so, I reckon we will be on a war-time footing (rationing, essential services) before a decade is out.
History tells us that you get a set price fory your milk at that point.
My idea of a robot tractor would be bicycle-technology - lunar rover stuff. Your things waste too much energy on themselves.
I ride a bicycle with a 230-deg power stroke, which hits maximum torque before 5-deg, and holds it until 110deg. (versus 180-deg power-stroke, 90deg max for every crankshaft/conrod and pedal/crank in the world). Ridden it for 20 years. So I'm not exactly respectful of other people's limits.
The biggest problem is that outside the square thing.
Yep I did PDK. Was just taking a trip down memory lane really. My faithful 'old red' is moving on to bigger pastures. Will be sad to see her go, though it has been mighty handy to use to prune the large trees around the section. OSH wouldn't approve of what I do, but oh well.
I used a friends vodafone modem in Southland. Told the owner they should send it back and refuse to pay for it. Reception was shocking. Over Christmas it didn't work for 10days! Spoke to them recently and they say they get reception about 2 days a week now. Up to 20th Dec it had being working fine. Vodafone admit it is a 'network' problem.
I asked Orcon why I can't get the same wireless deal (2gb for the price of 1gb) and was told 'because you are rural'. :-(
Casual Observer - you're excused. My 1936 Cletrac is an old friend, but I'll have to make wood alcohol to feed her (I doubt she'd mind!)
I taught the kids to drive a two-sticker when they were 5 and 7 - no OSH there either. The old girl's worse than most too - she's only got contracting band-brakes on the half-shafts - no clutches. Loses a bit when turning uphill.........
Vodafone's crappy here too - but if you're ever passing, drop by.
Exactly scarfie,
This article was also posted around here a while ago and highlights some of the issues around "money" and "wealth".
http://www.converge.org.nz/pirm/money.htm
problem is scale. we dont have an autonomous domestic market and never will if we want to retain our lifestyles (anyone want 10m ppl here?). growth in the real economy comes from 1. comod producers/ tourists making us usd and, 2) expats/ migrants comin here for the beach. fdi is largely unproductive money in nz coz we dont have a big enuf dom market, so its all speculative and abt forex. so the dollar drops and theres an exodus of fdi....so what? thats what i'd call a 'correction'. might be painful for those in debt, but it would reset our postion to the global reality. if we want growth (and no ones cum up with a better plan thus) we need to focus on the fundamentals (oram, hickey and the orthodox are tinkerers imho). nz's fundamentals are cheese, loopies and property and if we dont focus on these things we are, as u say, in the cart. the dollar is too high.
disclaimer: i am a tiler, ignore me
ps. gloomsters, went outside 2day and north dunners crankin...heaps of trafic, pretty girls and lattes...we live in a wonderful place ppl. btw loser, is english ur 2nd language?
lighten up ppl
I met up with two friends today. One runs a small business he employs 30 people, he was complaining about the minimum wage going up. He said he has to lift all the wages if one sector gets a wage price he has to increase right across the board. His wages are on average going up about 5$ a day, nearly 55 k a year. Man is he pissed off. He thinks for what he is getting many are already overpaid. He thinks that Chinese workers on $10 a day would outwork most of his workers. He thinks his costs are spiraling out of control, right or wrong he has a point. He is 63 years old owned the business for 30 years and has a freehold house and a bach at the beach. I used to be in the National party and he was most unhappy with National.
JKEY appears to spend to much time looking in the rear vision mirror. Ive talked to Mp's who openly admitt to being focused on the next election, since winning the last one.
The next friend works for work and income. He told me that his small regional office gives out between 60-100k a week in food grants. There are other offices in our provincial town he thinks, also giving similar amounts. He went on to say that under National the amount given out in benefit top ups has gone through the roof. The entitlement attitude has started under Labour and has grown out of control. He had no answers just a fear of the future. Then a builder mate fronted up to complian about the foreshore and sea bed, he always voted national but told me in no uncertain terms that he wasn't going to again.
Personaly, I sold my business, Im cashed up with few few Kiwi $. I don't know the answers I think we missed our chance in the 90's and up to 2007. We blew a debt bubble and while we are getting good commodity prices now the debt is not reducing, just sitting waiting for the next 'event'. I dont think this government knows what to do and if it does its too scarred of lossing an election to do it. We need a meltdown and then to raise again, with all this debt and ridiculous asset values we are getting no where. Businesses like my first friends will contract or collapse, this will keep happening untill we get a leader prepared to make tough decissions not be in it for a popularity contest. There are no easy answers but yet we can see the problems all around us. I suggest getting business friendly fast.
Mate my staff are my biggest asset and without them my business would be knackered. Too many employers think that every dollar their business earns should go directly into their pocket and that employees should work for nothing and be grateful the employer lets them on site. One thing for sure is NZ is not a back water because its workers are overpaid!
Kiwis have wasted a lot of money on toys and rental property and it is not just the employees who did that. Many a boss took the profits and bought a massive boat and three rentals. So we need to be careful to make it clear that most people in this country don't have a good understanding of sensible investment practices. Employers are just as dozy as employees.
The temptation is to take earnings and blow them on show off things. Instead of investing money into the business and research etc many employers will waste it on less useful things, and they begrudge paying their staff even though the business is nothing without its staff! Why do so many staff piss off to Aussie? Better money there is why.
People say Kiwis are negative and that is right. Most Kiwi workers are negative about most Kiwi employers and most Kiwi employers are negative about most Kiwi employees. But in my experience most Kiwi employees are bloody good but they expect Kiwi employers to be able to match Aussie businesses and that isn't possible because Kiwi businesses limit themselves by refusing to invest in anything useful.
There's the vicious circle --- "We can't afford to pay you the salary you can get overseas because we think research and other stuff is a waste of money and so the business is going nowhere."
Brian Gaynor on Baby Boomers ruling the boardroom
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10699724
BH says:
Secondly, the government should welcome back with open arms the partners picked up by New Zealanders in their travels, regardless of marital status. That way we get two for the price of one, so to speak.
Hmm, I wonder what an increase in immigration will do to house prices in Auckland?
HI MIA
someone posted a link a few weeks back
Essentially we need to start breeding/importing immigrants (quality) and grow our economy or else our economy will shrink and die; let alone not afford Wollys pension
What are you gonna call your new party? The NZXY Party? I will give you my party vote as long as you dont introduce a CGT :)
What's wrong with non-Kiwi immigrants, especially if they work in innovative industries and pay lots of tax $$$? Just above you said: "I also laugh at the "kiwis are so friendly" myth. I think kiwis generally are quite rude, tribal and unfriendly! I find most nationalities in the world friendlier and more polite than kiwis. This is one of the reasons why I quite like living in Auckland. There are fewer kiwis around!"
So why would you want more of them then??! For the record, as a non-Kiwi immigrant I actually find Kiwis very friendly in general (except behind the wheel where they seem to become quite a different beast).
That said, I agree with the negative attitude and tall poppy syndrome, which is a real shame because a good number of people seem to be so p*ssed off when one takes risks to do things a little differently to try and do something with their life (and succeeds). Ignoring jealous people works fine.
A (talented) Kiwi friend I used to work with came to visit us today - he's moved to Germany for several years and now has a family over there (and no intention to return). We talked about the cost of living and he was telling me how a lot of everyday items were cheaper over there, however he could barely afford to move out of a 1-bedroom flat because of the rental prices. As an example, he said a small 2-bed flat would be $2500 a month (in Munich). When we briefly rented while building, we paid $1300/month for a 100m2 3-bed house with garage and garden in Chch. Not so bad after all.
It might stop them from continuing to fall over the next few years. But don't hold your breath as so many people are leaving or thinking of leaving as our real incomes and what they buy are going backwards. Too much debt.too much inflation and stagnant income growth.
Bernard - you can't ignore other information well posited here, without at least rebuttal, and then present something like this.
Sorry, but take a look at the IEA world energy outlook.
Then at the Club of Rome 1972 (and the 10-year updates) graph.
Verification would be if the peak of the energy graph was followed by the global longevity graph, no?
Energy peaked 2006 (quality/time) global longevity - having escalated every year since the 'black death', peaked in 2007. Not surprising - we eat oil, medically-treat with oil, live sheltered by oil.....
So think your way through what that graph means.
In that situation, less people per existing infrastructure (representing expended oil/fossil fuels) is better.
So your analysis of the 'problem' is faulty make that fatally flawed.
Concepts like GDP (you should have heard the Aussie economics prof last night - rubbishing GDP - reckoned if we all went outside and whacked into each others cars, GDP would go up. We told him we already had an earthquake done the same thing. How getting back to where you were, increases you wealth, when the process expended finite resources to get there, beats me) have to be abandoned - as does 'the economy'.
Sorry, but there are more important concepts afoot.
Less people per resource = richer people. And if there are fewer here, well housing won't be in demand. City jobs? Most of them are parasitic - they don't actually do anything to produce anything, so it's just a bigger drain on the activities which do. Hence the dying retail sector, and you can see hawkers, purveyors, touts and ticket-clippers all going the way of the corner store too.
Ultimately, your comment is a bit like saying: "my deckchair is sliding". I want it put back up the deck where it was".
Less ppl per resource, richer ppl....Indeed take a look at a real world example, Saudi Arabia....from memory 30 years ago? the net wealth per capita was I think $26kUSD....today I think its $8kUSD....because of the population explosion....and they have lots of young men with no jobs and nothing to do....stability yes? uh no....
Kunst has it right in a way...make stuff here, not because we can export it, but becasue we need that breadth of manufacturing and not rely on imports to support our economy....imports need even more oil....and labour will be pretty cheap.
Which means when someone says houses are 9:1 on the present wage but should be 3:1....they are not allowing for when wages drop, that means houses probably have to go to 2:1 on today's wages..........
However think of the house as the shelter and not the ATM and the problem mostly goes away.....PIs are toast.....I cant see this ending well....I just cant see in the face of high petrol and shortages of it that house prices just wont collapse and collapse 50% (or more)........which then means the banks will be in deep doo doo as PIs and households default....ug this scenario makes us start to look like America just some years behind....
On the bright side I think engineering and trades as a job/career will make a huge come back....oil has allowed us too much [unproductive] specialisation....that will be unwound......I wonder if there will be PCs in 30 years?.....
regards
When I came here in 1995 house prices were very affordable....today my house is supposedly worth 220% of what I paid for it....but my wages couldnt fill that gap....my mortgage would have to be 6 times what it is today.....I know the bank wouldnt go past treble my present one...and I wouldnt want it to.
Its simple really housing has to go back to 3 x ie the normal....many speculator PIs will be wiped out....no biggee IMHO....they could try working for a living...leave being a landlord to the Pros...
Partner, totally agree....not only that I know ppl who have come here to have kids and up'd and gone back to the UK because of the maternal grandmother....that is a thing you just cant change IMHO....I think you could pick up a few at the margins but otheriwise I dodnt think u can beat it....however NZ girls also go on OE and pick up foreign husband's now that you could try to work on a bit......they come back here.....
High paid jobs.....even In IT I can see that's a problem (ie we are in demand)...I could go to OZ and add 30% to my wages in OZ money as well....yet here Ive seen 5+ jobs in the last 6 months that offer what I earn now, or less....That can be partially "fixed" with a house price correction IMHO.....anyone with sense looks at the net costs....and not the first number....but another draw card ppl are telling me is the OZ employer contribution pension scheme....thats a huge icing on the cake.....
Oh and the UK is just fsked IMHO....so I'd expect more NZers comeing home after their OE....so it might self-correct a bit.
regards
One thing of interest is the effect of student loans. Making uni easy to get into and offering silly courses meant the govt was able to build a stupid big accounting asset.
Realistically it's knocked out a chunk of society from spending.
Because everyone bought into the idea of students pissing away taxpayer money, we charged our brightest and smartest.
Instead of 10 years of income from this cohort flowing through the community. It just returns to the govt as an extra tax. Instead of generating growth it just cancels numbers. Many of the smart ones... Because they are smart just leave.
We give money to people who can't find work. But saddle the youth with debt.
An average wage - student loan isn't so average.
I know people will moan about free education, although it was fine for a certain sector of society. I also know it doesn't make sense... But I think that giving 20 odd year olds a 40,000 debt for being smart, and then offer them low wages and crap conditions is a bad deal, and makes less sense.
Surely all that money that is moves out of wages and to the IRD would be better moving through the community.
5000 a year for a student to get a degree in nz. With no debt. That's an incentive to stay in the country. Or return after an oe.
But in nz we would rather pay people weekly to do nothing, and charge the brightest, persecute them overseas, and reward them with high taxes and low wages for the "priviledge" of living here...
Something has to give.... The hole shows it's giving...
I think the idea some years ago was to get more ppl with degrees...so we'd have "smarter" ppl getting (creating?) better jobs. The reality is where say 20 years ago a BA was good enough for a good job, these days a MA or PHD is needed....BA's are really almost like a school leaving certificate....and yes the "useless" BA's & MA's are flourishing....There are signs that Uni's are starting to limit intakes becasue the Govn wont fund past a set number....so marginal or failure students now dont get in or continue....the bum on a seat attitude is changing, that I think is mostly positive...some marginal courses are closing....not so sure thats so good, a BA should be pretty wide in its outlook....time will tell.
Sadly if you dont have a BA well good jobs are very hard to come by I suspect....and Im not convinced that's a good result...but I think trade's quals are comin back a bit....seeing tradesmen leaving for OZ isnt a bad thing IMHO, their wages will go up...wish all the lawyers we produce on high wages did the same thing ie bugger off to OZ.....the latter to me are parastitic....and wont be needed so much in the future.....they'll make good farm hands I suppose....
regards
Of different reasons described above - 20.2.11 4:03pm “A new dimension” – the government – so desperate - has to look into a new stream of income, a revitalization of our economy.
I do not think the government/ policymakers of this country are visionary enough and legislate for sustainable production options, including any philosophical solutions like: "Smaller countries have to think smaller, but with bigger ideas" – a “100%NZ pure Economy”.
I think the government in the not too far future will loosen the immigration law, in accordance to the increase and massive demand of applicants coming from Europe/UK/ America.
In the current international economic/ financial climate and our economic situation in particular, I’m sure the government/ policymakers are behind the idea of rapid population growth of say 200’000 – 300’000 - plus. Such a step will make a significant and positive impact on our economy - "Olly - Olla !"
I have a couple of ideas (in no particular order) at the moment which I would love to have trailed in NZ to see if they would help.
When I was doing my post-doc overseas, I was amazed at the number of European in particular post-docs who would have loved to have come to NZ to post-doc for a couple of years. We forget, but Europeans would like to do an OE as well. Just a couple of years here was all they wanted, but the desire was very strong. But could they do that? NO.
A post-doc in the sciences is a person who has finished their PhD who then goes on to additional and more advanced training and work experience as a now fully qualified junior scientist and it is probably the most valuable training part of a scientist’s early career. They typically last for up to 5-6 years. It’s post-docs who do most of the dogs work and experiments in science today and are the ones who are actually generating the data.
Rather than the NZ Govt. having all these PhD scholarships why doesn’t the Govt. switch that money into post-doctorial fellowships which are advertised to a global audience? PhD students are students! They are by definition still learning. They are not necessarily that productive. Most of them, once they have finished (if they do and if they pass) will then go overseas to do their post-docs, advance and establish their careers and most don’t come back. Where is the benefit to NZ in that? We are paying to make scientists for the rest of the world. That’s so New Zealand and none too bright I’m afraid.
Post-docs on the other hand are productive already qualified scientists. Why not put the money towards post-doc jobs in New Zealand? Wouldn’t you like to support American, Canadian, European trained scientists, who can come into our labs here in New Zealand for a couple of years, bringing with them new methods, new techniques, new and fresh ideas that they have learnt in Europe or North America that will benefit and enrich our scientific institutions here, and that didn’t cost us a brass farthing to make? And we get the benefit of their work as they are working on our projects here. You ask any senior scientist in NZ and they will tell you that they would jump at the opportunity to do that.
Another idea is to open the immigration flood gates to Europeans (non-Britons and Irish) aged 18-40 – as opposed to Asia and the islands to balance the immigration we have had from those areas over the last decade. I would love to know if we could replicate America’s success by having large numbers of Germans, Poles, Italians, and French etc. here too? Well say 500,000 of them over 20 years anyway. So long as they are healthy (physically and mentally) and without a criminal record let whoever wants to come here come.
And the other idea. I wonder what would happen if the Government gave tax cuts to certain occupational classes? Probably wouldn’t be very popular with the majority of the population I realise that. But what if all qualified engineers for example, or scientists, IT programmers, etc. - although not lawyers, marketers or accountants, we want the occupations that invent things - tax rates were slashed to a flat 5%? Or even tax free? How many of them then would be wanting to move to Australia because they could get a better salary over there?
All do-able and all great ideas. Our science and engineering community is just worryingly small - too few quality opportunities for grads and post-grads (and the pay isn't flash either).
No problem with special tax treatment for these professions either.
We should lead the world in environmental research given our biodiversity, geodiveristy and multi climatic conditions.
Our population needs to not increase.........but apart from that.........doesnt sound that bad an idea....
I think the USA had so many Europeans as it was seen as a land of opportunity what they have done is exploit their natural resources as fast if not faster than anywhere else........
Reduce tax for engineers, nice thought but probably not...part of the "impossibility" of coming to NZ that stops ppl is our way over priced housing........also business ppl create jobs and bring in exports.....um.....how do you define an engineer? Someone with a engineering qual? I know a taxi driver who can design liquid fuel pumps for rocket motors.....I myself have a Beng but I do IT, I also earn twice the money I earned as an engineer and have job security....
regards
David B - we're closer on that, than on anything so far.
There is no substitute for knowledge - although I don't care where it comes from, as long as it's the truth.
Two problems with PhDmia: as you go up the chain, you specialise - you learn less more and more about less and less, until you know eerything about stuff-all.
And
If the field is based on bullshit - or at least, on a temporary phase of physical plenty (read: economics) then it's no use at all. Total waste of energy.
I did that debate (see the like up-thread in my reply to 'Scarfie") sitting petween two Professors, sorry, Associate Professors. One was an Engineering one, but I suspect my all-round grasp of engineering in an inventing sense, is ahead of hers. She'd have me in investigative skills, maths and 'proving'. But she talks of 'making a profit' - whereas my grasp of energy requirements for anything at all, and the absolute peaking of same, tells me is going to be 'severely curtailed', followed by 'eliminated'.
Yes, we'll need the sciences like nothing else. But we won't need fettered thinking. The probabilities that existing systems answer future questions, is nil, so we need to teach thinking outside the rhomboid.
Increasing the physical population is not worth going there - but we are getting bottom-loaded. Ray Avery's SOP's may be a way for the few to include the many.
Tax-free for engineers/IT programmers sounds great! Fat chance of that happening though.
The post-doc thing you mention is interesting. My cousin (French) did his phD in the UK then his post-doc at Victoria Uni (where he's a senior lecturer, one of 10 NZ researchers to have been given a 3-year research grant and co-authored the book on the homepage of the Raman lab). From what I remember, it is not easy to find a suitable post-doc positions and if more were advertised I'm sure you'd get plenty of applicants for them. The two French immigrant couples I know all have electrical & software engineering degrees, as do my husband and myself (we all immigrated in our late 20's). Despite what's blamed on immigrants (eg higher house prices), we don't feel like a burden to the country.
I don't think the house prices is such a deterrent for people in these professions Steven because salaries for those jobs are significantly higher than average. Unless someone came straight after graduating, they'd have been able to save quite a bit by working in Europe first (as we did, and even now NZ house prices are low compared with Europe). Most of the immigrants I know have come here to escape the crowds and live close to the great outdoors. And it's true that many Europeans want to do an OE as well.
Tax-free treatment for certain skills, why would you want to do that? The market should be left to sort that out, if there is a shortage, the wages should rise to encourage more participants. Seems odd to then say these folk (engineers etc) are on above wages already. Typically government meddling produces the opposite to the effect intended.
What I cannot comprehend is the need to allow unskilled/semiskilled immmigration - this only serves to lower wages for Kiwis, do we really need more fruit pickers or farm workers or is the intention to drve down pay for those that are already poorly rewarded?
Otherwise free market Governments don't seem to mind underminning the market when it suits big business interests.
KD, lower or no taxes for specific skills was one of the ideas mentioned by David B. above, not specifically what I want (although I wouldn't mind). I think the idea is to entice people with those skills that we need/want and make them see NZ as a desirable place to live.
I think we've known for a long time that our "population pyramid" went a bit pear shaped, and is about to enter the hourglass era;
Starting in the next decade, however, our flabby pyramid is quickly going to slim down. It will assume the form of an hourglass, with the largest number of older people in our society's history, the quasi-retired baby boomers, up top, and the largest generation of young people since the boomers--the millennials, or echo boomers--at the bottom. The beleaguered generation-Xers will form the "pinched waist" in the middle.
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/103/open_essay-demographics.html
Lots of the colourful, shaped graphs here;
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/gas/gas_01populationcollapse.html
And the specifics (plus the graphs) for New Zealand here;
I think we need to consciously work toward transfer of wealth, opportunity and decision-making responsibility to the mid-section. Start by restricting the age of Parliamentarians to 55 years and limit the number of terms for any Parlimentarian to 3 (9 years).
It's time NZ political parties did some succession planning and those people who put their hand up realise it's not a lifetime career of maintaining the status quo but rather an opportunity to make things happen.
populationcollapse.html / "more babies"....but no food for them.........decline in population, yep, good idea........the guy cant see the wood for the trees...........less oil and the fact the Philipines cant feed itself will see that occur......
55 years and 3 terms, former I can almost agree with, the latter not so sure...I look at most of the long terms ones and agree, sadly I think the better ones quit after 3 or 4 anyway? Make things happen.....
IMHO MPs are the lapdogs of the political parties, they are there because they have the same mind set and will do as they are told, mostly willingly........I dont think its the MPs are wrong or too old or been there too long, its because the political parties are to old, been here too long and are to fixated....
regards
Kate
Love this line: "I think we need to consciously work toward transfer of wealth, opportunity and decision-making responsibility to the mid-section. Start by restricting the age of Parliamentarians to 55 years and limit the number of terms for any Parlimentarian to 3 (9 years)."
Great links by the way.
This a model for what all our comments should be. Opinionated useful and concise.
cheers
Bernard
Bernard - fair comment, except one wonders........
Define economy - in your statement. If that's measured in GDP, (and you don't mention any other measure) then it's nonsense.
I can triple our GDP tomorrow. It's a blind measure of how much we sell to each other, yes? If everyone you know, goes home throwing stones through every window they pass, drive into one another - the faster the better, and torch a bt of infrastructure.
That would do it, GDP would go through the roof. I suggest - and it's so with Cant'y,- that all you do is reinstate where you were before, and are actually behind.
So before you put the question, you have to have a better measure.
"The economy' doesn't cut it.
So you have to ascertain what the future may hold, measured in something else. Given that it's a physical place we inhabit, I suggest physical measures might be better.
They couldn't be worse.
Hence - and I apologise but don't withdraw - my short-fused comment above.
Prof Richard Denniss suggested that, given we can't anticipate future technology, that we should avoid positive-prescriptives. He suggests defining what we don't want (more crime, slums, hunger, reduction in water and land quality) and measure against those, to see if you are achieving.
I suggest you may well find that those measures are bettered by emigration, and a reduction in GDP.
Which is where I started. I think the question is wrongly framed.
Kathy
One more from Kathy via email
And how much less would we be having to pay doctors and dentists if they didn't come out of training with a mountain of debt and have to sock us to pay it off. For that matter, how much is the Crown now spending on subsidising doctor visits? Maybe a proportion of that should be added to the down side of the fees/loans scheme. Grrrr.... Better go and pull out some weeds in my garden.Students were leaving in droves long before the advent of student loans. I don't think they (the loans) have a lot to do with it. Rather, student loans are used more as an excuse by recent graduates and their parents to paper over their sense of guilt at bailing out on the country that raised and educated them at little direct cost to themselves. After all it's not the job of the New Zealand taxpayer to educate workers for the benefit of other nations. (No disrespect to Kathy above who I'm sure is very sincere in her views, but we need deeper thinking on the matter than that - although I do like the bonding idea for certain graduates).
The real problem is that we are a low wage nation with only a couple of successful economic strings to our bow. Those are the issues we need to focus on.
Part of the issue is the cost of higher education. I completed my degree during the 90's and didn't require a student loan. I worked part time and fees were affordable. I did take advantage at one point (borrowed $4k) to purchase a car but I also paid it back within a couple of years. Most students I knew only went on their OE for a couple of years and then returned. Back then I only earned about $7 an hour as well.
David - you make some good points, but Kathy also makes some excellent points.
I agree with David that our economy needs to transform to lift our wages, but at the same time I believe the student loan scheme has been incredibly destructive.
But I disagree David on your view that taxpayers shouldn't have more of a role in supporting education. If you look at the bigger picture education is incredibly important to a country's future. A country's COLLECTIVE future, not just individuals.
Its like a libertarian was saying to me over the weekend that we as taxpayers shoudn't have to support the unemployed and downtrodden. Why should we? But that is an incredibly narrow sighted view - wipe out benefits and crime would likely soar, who wants our society to become like South Africa? Libertarians often forget these things. That what is in the collective interest is often in the individual's interest.
I concur that I know dozens of people who are unlikely to come back to NZ due to their student loans and the low wages here. This was less of an issue 7 or 8 years ago when our housing and general cost of living was much cheaper.
My brother has a big student loan and a young family. He's based in London now, when he came back last Xmas he couldn't believe the cost of living (especially housing) here now. He would love to come back, but simply couldn't afford to
I thought education was supposed to be an investment in the future of a country?
When the fundamentals are missing - of course we can talk endlessly.
In the current and upcoming worldwide scenario free market mechanism need to be supported by governments. Entrepreneurialism and innovation only develop with a structured economy. Our economy is in such a mess, with only three major, but shaky and unhealthy sectors in this country. Next to a bloated, unhealthy property industry, declining tourism and a questionable agriculture industry, both biting each other arses and both strongly under the influence of worldwide events, reforms are desperately and urgently needed. In addition consumerism over the years created a culture, which destroys the NZsociety.
Our economy just doesn’t provide enough decent jobs. The private sector just doesn’t have the resources to battle against e,g, youth unemployment. The Private sector doesn’t have the resources to set up new productive enterprises. The private sector doesn’t have the capacity to set up entire new economic sectors, which are so desperately needed in this country.
PM Key – in the current worldwide environment, only with the help of the government legislating for the NZproduction sector can make positive changes - providing the wider NZpopulation with decent jobs. We urgently need reformations – organising and structuring our economy.
Totally agree we need more affordable housing but think we are being unrealistic to expect jobs to be as good as the places expats go to find work. We will never compare with London, New York or even Sydney for carriers but we must be able compete for lifestyle otherwise we have nothing.
The fact that housing is so expensive is the single most important factor in my mind. Many leave NZ just so they can save for a deposit on a house. The high prices then kill our disposable income and require all our spare time be eaten up toiling to pay the mortgage.
It’s just madness for a country with such a low population density and to have such expensive housing...
Coming to somewhere near you. Migration as you've never seen it before.
Tomorrow night at 8:00 pm AEST (10:00 pm NZ) the ABC (ABC1) is broadcasting a documentary ""Foreign Correspondent" on the consequences of the Irish Banks, Irish Debt and unemployment at 16% and the response of the educated university graduate class .. they are leaving in droves and heading for australasia .. now .. can be seen on iVew at http://www.abc.net.au/tv/iview/
They don't see why they should stick around and pay for the mistakes of others.
Well hourglass was used somewhere in this thread to describe hour current demographic profile. If you take away the Y's then it migh look more like an inverted pyramid. BB's on top, less X's below, and big hole where the Y's once were.
Not saying there will be a war of course, but then again.....
Trouble is Murray is that a lot of people on here talk a lot of sense, but I don't actually see any of it ever getting implemented. Instead of resolving the issues those that hold the power decide to hide them. War is one quite definite possibility.
and now all our doctors are leaving:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10707818
a mate of mine who is a doctor went to Aus 4 years ago, getting heaps more money
the hospitals are full of foreign doctors, the grass is always....
General practice is more profitable now than it has been for a long time...a good friend just came back from Aussie to practice here.
You need to remember it is a relative game, if you earn relatively higher than most people in your community you do well, ask any specalist. I would say medical specalist in the golden triangle of specialisations, in relative terms, do better here in NZ than many places overseas i.e especially Melb. or Sydney unless you are brain surgion.
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