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Opinion: Why real house prices are 25% above their long term trend
By Rodney Dickens I wrote the first "housing hell" report in August 2007. It looked at what was likely to happen to real or inflation-adjusted house prices after the mega-boom, using NZ and UK experiences. In that report I concluded that "to get the rental yield back to the historical average of 7.7%, the average rental income will have to increase 71% or the median house price will have to fall 42%. Or, more likely, some combination of the two will unfold." In the second "housing hell" report, written in March 2008, I looked in more detail at the extent to which house prices were out of line with incomes and rents. These reports offered valuable insights for anyone serious about understanding the underlying economics of the housing market, which has implications to the long-term performance of house and section prices. They were not designed to quantify near-term prospects for house prices, but these reports also provided advance warning of the imminent fall in house prices. House prices and, to a lesser extent, section prices subsequently fell and in time-honoured fashion the media was there to tell the horror stories. In a 6 January 2009 article on the front page of the business section of the Herald I was identified as picking that house prices would fall 42% in 2009 from the peak level in 2007. 42 might be the answer to the meaning of life, the universe and everything, but it wasn't my pick for house prices in 2009 (see here for my rebuttal).
Ironically, in our January 2009 pay-to-view Housing Prospects reports I wrote that "interest rate cuts should underwrite a sufficient upturn in housing demand in the first half of 2009 to halt the downward pressure on house prices" and that "by which time the national median price should have fallen 10-12% from the peak". Based on the QV quarterly house price index, which is the most accurate measure of house prices, the national average house price fell 10% from the peak in the December quarter of 2007 to the March quarter of 2009. By the time May 2009 rolled around I was predicting in our Housing Prospects reports that "price increases could emerge in some places before year end", which demonstrates that I am not the moribund pessimist some property people paint me as, and that the analytical framework I have developed over many years is just as useful for picking near-term upturns as it is for warning about near-term pain. However, as was the case with the earlier "housing hell' reports, the focus of this Raving is not on near-term prospects but is on the big-picture (i.e. how far along the adjustment process are real house prices). The left chart below updates the relationship between the national median house price and the national average annual gross rental income on rental dwellings that was shown in the first "housing hell" report. The fall in house prices in 2008 made a bit of a dent in the yawning gap between house prices and rents, which resulted in some improvement in the gross rental yield (blue line, right chart).

See a bigger version of the chart here. However, based on the REINZ data the national median house price in December was up 2.3% on the peak level in 2007, while the recession has contributed to a stalling of growth in rents. The QV quarterly house price index is currently only available up to the June quarter of 2009, but when we finally get to see the March quarter of 2010 number it is likely to confirm that the rental yield has fallen almost back to the trough level experienced when house prices peaked in late-2007. Rental yields are useful in helping assess whether housing in general represents a good investment. However, the rental yield shouldn't be viewed in isolation, but rather in the context of interest rates (both from the perspective of the cost of debt for housing investors and from an opportunity cost or alternative investment perspective), the prospects for rental growth and the prospects for capital appreciation.
See a bigger version here. This chart shows that there is not a close relationship between the housing gross rental yield and two measures of interest rates. However, in the longer-term it is reasonable to expect the housing rental yield to average significantly above the 6-month term deposit rate, reflecting the higher risk normally associated with investing in housing relative to putting your money in the bank. Equally, the rental yield will not remain significantly below the average fixed mortgage interest rate over the long-term because this implies that housing investors will be too cash-flow negative for this to be sustained indefinitely. However, while interest rates remain below average a below average housing rental yield can be justified. Another perspective on house and section prices is how they stack up relative to incomes. The left chart below shows the ratio of the national average house price to the annual gross income of the average employee (black line) and the section price to income ratio (blue line). With house and section prices currently increasing and income growth having slowed the price to income ratios will be rising. Relative to incomes, house and section prices are unsustainably high. However, disequilibrium, like house and section prices being unsustainably high relative to incomes, won't necessarily be resolved quickly. This is especially the case in property markets where prices can be downwardly "sticky" (i.e. if there aren't lots of forced sellers prices can hold up much better than implied by an adverse demand-supply balance). The super-low interest rates that resulted from the financial crisis have played a major part in waylaying the adjustment in real house and section prices. The right chart is most useful in showing this. The blue line is the annual interest cost associated with buying the average house using 80% debt, expressed as a % of the average employee's gross income. The black line is the annual cost of renting the average rental dwelling, expressed as a % of the average employee's gross income. The RBNZ's experiment with low interest rates between 1999 and 2005 played a key part in making buying a house (including building a new house) much cheaper than renting, which helped fuel the speculative bubble in house prices between 2003 and 2007. Rising house prices and increasing interest rates eventually made buying a house look very expensive relative to renting, which created the economic/financial backdrop for the larger than normal cyclical fall in house prices in 2008-09. However, the combination of falling house prices and especially tumbling interest rates has provided a temporary reprieve and given housing a veil of affordability.

See a bigger version here. Since house prices peaked in late-2007 we estimate that the average employee's income has increased 11.5%, while we estimate that the average rent has increased 4.5%. This means that even with the national average house price rebounding some progress has been made in closing the yawning gap between house prices and incomes. 42% is no longer the answer to how much house prices would have to fall in real terms to restore sanity, but from a fundamental/valuation perspective, housing in general now offers almost as bad value for investors as it did in late-2007. This doesn't mean house prices are about to collapse, although it does mean house and section prices are more vulnerable than normal to rising interest rates and economic downturns, while it also means it will be a long, long time before housing in general is a good investment option again. The medium to long-term outlook for real house and section prices Since the inaugural Housing Prospects report in April 2007 we have demonstrated our ability to provide valuable insights into year-ahead prospects for house and section prices. Our unique analytical framework has proved its ability to pick both when prices are about to rise and when they are about to fall. However, in assessing what will happen to house and section prices over the next 5-10 years our leading indicator framework doesn't have the answers because by design it can only assess near-term prospects. No one can say with certainly what will happen to house and section prices over the next 5-10 years, in part because we are in uncharted waters, but history and clear thinking can provide some helpful insights. The largest boom in house prices prior to the most recent one was in the early-1970s. The left chart shows what the average house price did relative to the average gross rental income during the 1973-74 boom. The right chart shows the performance of annual house price inflation relative to inflation in rents. This was a period when prices in general were increasing dramatically, with consumer price inflation averaging 12% over the 1970s and 14.4% in the second half of the decade, which was almost matched by inflation in rents. In the first half of the 1970s the national average house price increased 56% relative to prices in general as measured by the CPI (i.e. the real or inflation-adjusted house price increased 56%). However, during the second half of the 1970s the real house price fell 37%. In real terms house prices fell 2% in the 1970s (see the blue line in the second left chart below). High general inflation meant the yawning gap between house prices and rents could be largely closed even with house prices continuing to rise. But what ultimately matters for investors is the performance of house prices relative to prices in general and on this front investors got burnt big-time in the second half of the 1970s.

See a bigger version here. Estimating the long-term trend line for the national average real house price is fraught with potentially dubious assumptions, but the green line in the adjacent chart is my guestimate. This trend line has an annual growth rate of 1.52%. See a bigger version here. This is a lower estimate of annual real house price inflation than assumed by some property people. In my experience many people are too optimistic about things like sustainable economic growth rates and long-term real house price performance, either because they have a vested interest or because they have estimated them over non-representative time periods. Based on my guestimated exponential trend line, the real house price would have to fall 25% to be back on the trend line. A major difference between now and the 1970s is that the RBNZ is now responsible for ensuring that general inflation remains relatively low. This greatly reduces the extent to which or the speed with which rising rents and incomes can close the yawning gap. Population growth is the key driver of rising real house and section prices over the long-term. On the seemingly realistic assumption that NZ continues to have around 1.2% annual population growth, the trend line should continue to increase at around 1.5% per annum. This means that the longer the gap takes to close the less real house prices will have to fall to get back on the trend line. For example, if it takes another 5 years for the real house price to fall back to the trend line, real prices will only have to fall 19% to restore sanity. However, I expect the adjustment to take longer than five years because actual prices are downwardly sticky and general inflation in incomes and rents is likely to be much lower over the next five years than was the case in the second half of the 1970s. If it takes 10 years for real house prices to fall then only a 13% fall will ultimately be required from the current level to restore sensible prices. But it shouldn't be overlooked that real prices can fall below the trend line for sustained periods as well as run above it. This has direct implications for the medium to longer-term outlook for section prices. Downwardly sticky property prices and the role of human behaviour/stubbornness If the housing and section markets behaved like the share market, or like any other markets in which prices respond rapidly to changes in the demand-supply balance, the adjustment in real house prices would have occurred. The difference with property markets and other markets with downwardly sticky prices is that during downturns many vendors are only pretend vendors (i.e. they have properties listed for sale but are not willing to sell at the prices required to achieve sales and "clear" the market). See here for a discussion of market clearing prices. In a 15 January article in the Dargaville News, Massey University lecturer Bob Hargreaves was reported as identifying psychology as a key factor behind why property prices haven't come down that much. "It's a psychological thing, people that brought their properties at the height of the property boom don't really want to sell at a loss, so you've got people just sitting there holding onto their properties." He was also reported as suggesting that low interest rates were another reason for property prices staying relatively stable. He went on to warn that "interest rates will go up before they'll go down again." Unless there is a large number of forced or mortgagee sales, house and section prices will be downwardly sticky. In the context of the high level of debt some people have and the depth of the economic recession that lasted from the March quarter of 2008 to the March quarter of 2009, the surprise to me was how few mortgagee sales there have been. Relative to the size of the housing stock NZ has experienced a small number of forced sales compared to the US. This is why I expect much of the gap between house and section prices on the one hand and incomes and rents on the other hand to be closed more by incomes and rents grinding higher than by actual house and section prices falling. However, actual house and section prices remain vulnerable and future Housing Prospects reports will update our insights for these. Our in-depth research in 2009 revealed major differences in the downward stickiness of house and section prices in different parts of the country. In our assessment the differences were due to varying levels of mortgagee sales as much as because of different demand-supply balance, although the latter is also playing a part. The charts below come from our recent One-Tree Point-Ruakaka-Marsden Point report and show section sales data for a sub-market where large adjustments have occurred.

See a bigger version here. Tamure Place is accessed via a lower socioeconomic part of Ruakaka. Prior to the bubble really bursting in early 2009, sections were already generally selling at discounts to capital values, but the combination of collapsing demand and mortgagee sales meant the discounts subsequently averaged around 40%. The left chart above shows selling prices relative to CVs at the time of sale, while the right chart shows the % premium or discount to CV. See a bigger version here. The adjusted sign is from a current ad for the same area, where mortgagee sales continue, which has resulted in new, lower benchmark prices being set. This is an area where I expect demand for the sizeable number of new sections that have been subdivided to ultimately come mainly from local workers. In that context, section prices in the $82,000-100,000 range make sense versus the $140,000-170,000 range "“ and higher in some cases "“ they were initially priced at. In places where mortgagee sales have made up a sizeable share of total sales some significant price adjustments have occurred. In some other places where the demand-supply balance might be just as unfavourable but mortgagee sales are less common, the adjustment process is at work, but it has some way to go before sanity prevails. The Thames-Coromandel District and the Queenstown Lakes District are two of the 24 cities/districts we cover in the Housing Prospects reports where adverse demand-supply balances are belatedly starting to manifest in significant underperformance of house prices relative to the national average (the charts below). We expect the underperformance in these two districts and in some of the other 24 cities/districts we cover to continue, but equally some other parts of the country have good reason to out-perform the national average.

See a bigger version here. At the other extreme are some places where reality remains suspended despite there being an adverse demand-supply balance because would-be vendors are in no hurry to meet the market. In these places asking prices are generally well above what buyers are willing to pay, resulting in a small number of sales. In these situations only the buyers who are willing and able to pay premium prices are buying. This means prices remain well above the levels needed to clear the market and would-be vendors can live in a suspended state of reality believing they should continue to hold out on their asking prices. But while prices continue to defy gravity only a few of the would-be vendors will be able to sell. An example of this is in the Ruakaka area. We also found examples of this in Tauranga, as will be covered in a forthcoming pay-to-view report. In the Ruakaka Beach area, we initially found 23 sections for sale on the secondary market and 62 sold but vacant sections. The Ruakaka Beach area has direct access to the beach, has a significant retirement element as well as a higher income element, which is a major distinction with the Tamure Place neighbourhood. Sections and houses in this area have generally sold in the vicinity of CVs, but it is a relatively illiquid market in which vendors are asking prices above what most buyers are willing to pay. On searching www.realestate.co.nz and www.trademe.co.nz yesterday I found 13 sections advertised for sale in the newer part of the Ruakaka Beach area. The table lists the asking prices, section sizes, most recent listing dates (a number of these sections will have been re-listed, so will have been on the market for longer than the dates suggest). The table also shows previous sale prices and agreement dates for the sections that we were able to identify the exact address. Compared to original sale prices in 2003-04, asking prices are on average 152% higher based on the 6 sections for which we could make this comparison. Prices in 2003-04 may have been cheap, but the fact that many of these sections have been for sale for some time tells us that asking prices are too high to clear the market. This is an example of a place/sub-market where there will probably be a protracted adjustment in real property prices.

See a bigger version here. Many people seem to have little or no understanding of opportunity costs. An example helps explain the principle. If one of the vendors had dropped his/her asking price by 20% at the beginning of 2009 and as a result achieved a sale, the person could stop paying rates and upkeep on the section but, more importantly, he/she could have freed up money for use in other areas. In an extreme case the person could have invested the money in the NZ share market where around a 50% return was available last year, although this only stacks up if there was little or no debt on the section. The more relevant opportunity costs for many would-be vendors relate to the holding costs and inflation. The holding costs are straight forward and include interest on any debt, local body rates and any maintenance involved on the vacant sections, like lawn mowing costs. If, for example, a section that originally sold for $85,000 still has $50,000 debt associated with it, then annual interest costs would be around $3,500 (i.e. enough to pay for renting a decent holiday home for around 25 nights a year). Inflation is a creeping thing that moves slowly but will eventually mean people who wait years to sell will be worse off than they probably realised. For example, if prices in general rise 3% per annum then over a ten year period they increase by 34%. If it takes this long for a would-be vendor to achieve his/her asking price then on a purchasing-power basis the person will end up making a significant loss. Such a loss feels less painful than accepting a lower actual price today, but ultimately it will be as real. The Ruakaka Beach example shows that the psychology in question is more than just about people who bought their properties at the height of the property boom not being willing to make a loss "“ the physiological phenomenon explained by Bob Hargreaves. A number of the would-be vendors in the Ruakaka Beach area bought before speculative buyers drove prices to unsustainable levels, so they could sell at major discounts to the current asking prices and still make large paper profits. The behaviour by would-be vendors partly relates to what they paid for the sections, but it probably relates more to the value they perceive the land/property to have. Perceived value is generally based on recent sale prices, which is where we get caught in a Catch 22. If the vendors in general stick to their asking prices then only a few sections will sell, with the achieved prices reflecting what the most enthusiastic buyers are willing to pay, which will be well above market clearing prices. So most would-be vendors will not be able to sell at the achieved prices. _________________ * Rodney Dickens is the Managing Director and Chief Research Officer for Strategic Risk Analysis (SRA), which is a boutique economic, industry and property research company. Rodney produces regular free reports on topical issues and on specific property markets. Find out more about SRA here and sign up to SRA's free reports here.
74 Comments
Brilliant. But how many of
Brilliant.
But how many of your average home buyers, who heard at a bbq last week prices are off again and always double every 7 years, are going to read such reports and if they do understand them.
Murray still thinks raw median prices are the best indication of house price movements, he can't get his head around why any 'fiddled with' index would ever be used.
The worlds financial markets must give him a real headache with the nzx50, asx200, djia, etc.
Might seem a bit harsh but my point is most people in NZ have very poor financial literacy.
I think as a test interest.co.nz should do a street survey of just a couple of questions:
1/ do you own a house.
2/ do you know the difference between nominal and real values.
Sounds like alot of excuse
Sounds like alot of excuse making to me.
I agree with Sarah's example
I agree with Sarah's example of the lamb (sheep) bbq.
Median price is simplistic, and more in-depth information is helpful.
This was a long article by Rodney, and I have to say - Good on you Rodney.
I think he has changed his feelings on residential property over the last 6 to 9 months, and he has admitted it after crunching his numbers. When you were still bull, I was waving red flags.. but I think your timing was good.
<i>"..it will be a long,
"..it will be a long, long time before housing in general is a good investment option again."
That's for sure !!
........ and the alternative investments
........ and the alternative investments are ????????
That's right Bevan, RD has
That's right Bevan, RD has been quite bullish until recently, yet one would expect him to be more cynical given that he's worked for long periods in the finance industry. It's also refreshing to see his analytical approach as opposed to, say, the typical experiential approach (a al Olly Newland). Given that you see such divergent conclusions from recognized experts, it shows that the property investing is not the "no brainer" that most people still seem to think it is.
Supports my contention that the
Supports my contention that the govt and the RBNZ are acting to prop up the bubble and count on Mr Time doing his thing. That's why Key thinks the rotting home problem can be inflated away. It also backs up the point that this govt is running with Queen Helen's immigration policy. Nothing like heaps of migrants to pork property and keep the National Party Brethren rolling in tax free capital gains. There are plenty of dreamers in the Marlborough region who are asking 30% above cv for sections and surprise surprise they can't find buyers.
The cv prices were set by only a handful of idiots at the height of the boom anyway.
The warnings are there in RDs report about what rising rates will do to the market.
So why are people expecting the Beehive fools to change the tax system....why would they risk rocking the electoral boat when Queen Helen's gambit is working so well for them!
I wasted read. Excuses for
I wasted read. Excuses for how you were actually right. This article didn't tell me anything.
A great report however most
A great report however most Kiwis will still believe serfdom to the privately controlled not so Federal Reserve of the good old US of A. I should imagine it will soon be legal to pledge your children as collateral for mortgages. The Cargo Cult of home ownership is alive and well in NZ
@ Wally, I always thought
@ Wally, I always thought cv prices were 'notional'- a way of charging rates, a comparative figure to other properties, definitely not a measure of value or price.
Silly moi.
Why not use a letter to denote 'bands', as done in the UK. Can't remember the calculation details. It didn't denote a price/value though- - more a comparison. The rating band stayed the same unless you, for example, added more rooms etc (improved the property).
The different councils then use the banding and apply a factor in order to arrive at rates. Often used to slam 'socialist' councils in London, and praise 'conservative' councils for their management. Held them to account at least.
Otherwise...
Yonks ago we used to add 10% (then it started to climb) -Hows about we just get everbody into thinking about subtracting 25% instead?
Don't like it much though
Also hate the idea of just 'inflating' the problem away. The problem still remains for too long.
J.C. - I once thought
J.C. - I once thought Rodney was bullish but I now think I was just misinterpreting him. An excellent piece. To me this is the guy to listen to
You can wish all you
You can wish all you want about house prices however if the average family cannot afford the average family home then the average house is unaffordable.
A good piece. regards
A good piece.
regards
@RT: "…….. and the alternative
@RT: ""¦"¦.. and the alternative investments are ????????"
A very good Q...some say we have moved from 30 years of making "too much" money to making little or losing money for the next 30.....the problem is ppl now consider making "too much" the norm...so to continue to make "too much" they are taking on huge risk, OK if they are aware of that fact, dumb if not. So some ppl are considering that the wise strategy (for a year or two at least) is to sit back and minimalise losses...
I dont see anything well written that's says housing is still a good buy, prices are sticky because our un-employment is 6~7%, interest rates are low and we have a welfare state unlike the US where the true un-employment is 17% and negligible welfare state...so there isnt the panic.....yet.
regards
well written Rodney ...... BUT
well written Rodney ...... BUT dont forget the lurking tax changes OR the possible rapid exit of speculators from the market. Not to mention potential for double digit inflation, NZ credit downgrade, another GFC, collapse in commodity prices, 10% unemployment. I am not saying these will happen, but they are certainly plausible outcomes. Like any economic forecasting there is a range of plausible scenarios ranging from
a) sticky prices being caught up by rent and income rises over 15 years (a la Rodney)
b) crash over a short period which overshoots on the downside. (a la Bernard)
I think we can say without doubt that whatever scenario aplies, in general over the long term ppty will be a shite investment (but not denying there could be some value buys amidst the garbage, but htese will be the exception).
Funny that in the land
Funny that in the land of the free (USA) where people have no welfare state to speak of and lots choice when it comes to healthcare that 16% of GDP is devoted to healthcare and in Norway which has money to burn can provide can offer universal healthcare for 8% of GDP. Don't know why we listen to anything coming out of Washington regarding housing. We should all tune into Oslo.
damnit, with so much praise
damnit, with so much praise for the article, I guess I should go back and actually read it. Is there an executive summary?
Alcohol is REALLY expensive in
Alcohol is REALLY expensive in Oslo. And I am not saying that in the context of their healthcare spend, but as a reason to be sceptical about their philosophies!
@Sean: Oslo has oil....we dont,
@Sean: Oslo has oil....we dont, however if we found enough oil to become say the Norway of the South we would do well to listen. A great example is how the UK and how Norway have delt with their respective windfalls...Norway has done well, UK is now stuffed (becoming a net oil importer with nothing to show for it). However we have Brownlee...
:/
Oh....bugger....
@Jimmy: the potential for double digit inflation is a long way away and small....IMHO. Deflation is the issue...the rest I agree, I consider far more likely....
For b), Bernard backtracked I think....Im happy to stay with b)....
"economic forecasting" looking forward I think anyone trying to do such or tell us whats ahead is either going to be lucky (right for the wrong reason) or wrong....or maybe right...(smallest odds on the last). I think the future is irrational right now (cant be calculated or interpolated based on the past, or rational data) and full of events which if they happen could have drastic consequences...peak oil/oil price spikes/shortages....financial collapse/default of a country; Japan, Eastern Europe (pick any), Greece, UK, China, US....
regards
@RT: “…….. and the alternative
@RT: ""¦"¦.. and the alternative investments are ????????"
Are you serious ?? You can't think of any other investment other than realestate? Wow !!
You tell me , where's
You tell me , where's dear old Mom&Pop Kiwi gonna pile their munny , where they won't get ripped off ........... Finance companies . Banks . The NZX . Olives / Vineyards / Dairy farms . 'Phone cards . Number plates . Goats ( oops , already mentioned finance companies ) .................. I'm not surprised that Kiwis flock to " bricks&mortar " , given the track record of the alternatives .......... Copper's good , but !
House prices don't go up
House prices don't go up or down (significantly). The value of bank notes (money) goes down. Especially when you decide to print wads of it like confetti.
Money is the crazy man leaping about holding a curved mirror to everything and then very well educated mirror men with doctorates in silver-backed glass instruments draw lovely graphs about the changing reflection.
If there is a true, non-money related increase in the value for land, its because people want to live here. It seems like every accent I hear now is British - and they're not on holiday folks.
PS "If the housing and section markets behaved like the share market" -behaved? A mountain doesn't behave - it just is. The share market - bank notes on holiday - now that's REAL behavioral problems.
Christchurch? Oh and try reading
Christchurch? Oh and try reading the UK to NZ emigration PR - superb stuff.
There are plenty of options
There are plenty of options where "Mom&Pop kiwi's" could invest their money, it just takes a little time and effort to do the research.. like commodities, equities (local and foreign), FX .. my personal mix ... either directly or through leveraged CFD's/ETF's.
Hell if I can do it, anyone can. Key is to not put all your eggs in one basket, invest in a broad range of investment classes, do the research, be in control of your own money, don't give it to someone else to invest.
@Matt S. Agree about "There
@Matt S. Agree about "There are plenty of options where "Mom&Pop kiwi's" could invest their money" but trying to go to the bank and borrow some money to invest in such options and you'll get a loud laughter.
@ Rodger I see what
@ Rodger
I see what your saying but most homes in NZ are not made out of bricks and mortar!!!
I think RT is right
I think RT is right to the extent that if people have money they will put it in property.
I used to think like Rodney that the correction might happen via income inflation out stripping nominal price increases but any extra money people have is going to go straight into property.
I now think the correction will have to come via a combination of interest rate rises, increased unemployment and in inflation in essentials (food, petrol, rates etc) leaving less dollars in the pocket.
cont. Here's the 'behavior' of
cont.
Here's the 'behavior' of the US share market for example:
"Half of the return of the stock market over the past 50 years was associated with just 10 days with the greatest daily change.
Think about it - 50 years - 10 days. Or anotehr way - out of the past 18,250 days, only 10 of those days contributed to half the returns.
Too true - surely we
Too true - surely we can have a taxation system that does not reward a property market on steriods aided and abetted by finance companies who only pupose appears to have been to inflate dubious assets with dubious merits such SOHO in Auckland such overhypted hyperbolic offal) but an economy that rewards production with the end result value added products that there is a real market with real money for.
Marky Mark, i belive that
Marky Mark, i belive that is what happened in 2008.
I clearly remember filling the car $100+ and that good old block of cheese at $15, interest rates 8-9% but that wont happen again anytime soon ..... or would it.
and forecasting, the only thing you can guarantee is you'll be wrong.
Why why do New Zealanders
Why why do New Zealanders suffer from such short term vision?
@gingerbreadman, if its someone else's
@gingerbreadman, if its someone else's money you want to use, a margin lending facility is available on a huge range of NZX and ASX equities, so no problem there. True you won't get a loan to gamble on FX directly, fair enough too. I use my own money for that. CFD's and ETF's are also leveraged.
That was one of the
That was one of the best, most well balanced articles I have read in a long time. Good stuff. A lot of downside ahead for property and not a lot of upside.
@ Sean Long term vision
@ Sean
Long term vision from the the so called "leaders" of NZ might help........
Not a great trait for a career politician though aye.
What he actually said was:
What he actually said was: "Based on my guestimated exponential trend line, the real house price would have to fall 25% to be back on the trend line."
It's not really justifiable to use a made up number from a "Guesstimated trend" to headline this article is it?
When Rodney Dickens sent this report out, he actually titled it: "Property price prospects - the real story". Much less sensational.
This guy is obviously taking
This guy is obviously taking a hammering from his clients. He provided advice which was wrong and is scambling to justify himself.
Good article that backs up
Good article that backs up my view that the long term prospects for property investment are worse than hopeless. 2010 is going to be an interesting.co.nz year Im personally looking forward to rates rising, migration falling and tax changes while I earn a profit on my bank savings that are lent to my landlord who is subsidizing my accomodation costs in the false hope of making a capital gain, oh well its not like they haven't had plenty of warning so don't act all suprised when the balance sheet turns a dark red and creditors come knocking at your door.
"On the seemingly realistic assumption
"On the seemingly realistic assumption that NZ continues to have around 1.2% annual population growth, the trend line should continue to increase at around 1.5% per annum. This means that the longer the gap takes to close the less real house prices will have to fall to get back on the trend line.
For example, if it takes another 5 years for the real house price to fall back to the trend line, real prices will only have to fall 19% to restore sanity."
And that was the basic qualifer Bernard , myself and a few of the doomsters said way back in 2007 early 2008 when we looked at the basic funiments, from difeerent perpectives
Those who use the term "excuses" are those who just read and remeber the headlines and dont bother with the detail.
Well Done Rodney.
This report looked so long
This report looked so long I didn't bother to read it - wasn't Rodney the guy who predicted in January 2009 that house prices would drop 42% by the end of the year! LOL
http://tinyurl.com/yaj34lo
Oooooooooops , Rodney .........outed by
Oooooooooops , Rodney .........outed by someone with a good memory . There you go Bernard , your's was not the daftest guess of the year . C'mon guy's , biff out some more crystal ball musings . Here's one from left field : Barack Obama admits to moonlighting as " Trixi-Bell " , a Las Vegas show girl ............... Tiger Woods suffers massive heart attack .
OK - scanned it -
OK - scanned it - Coastal and lifestyle NZ real estate cannot be compared with central, Wellington, Christchurch or Auckland real estate. Totally different scene.
Exactly lara, crap speculated property
Exactly lara, crap speculated property at Coopers Beach cant be compared to great rental in Auckland
Lara / Roger FYI, Rodney
Lara / Roger
FYI, Rodney did not say house prices would fall by 42% in one year, he was missquoted by the wombats at the Herald.
Finally some sane analysis by an economist with no obvious vested interests and I am just waiting for the property bulls to try and credibly debunk his excellent analysis
28 yr old - please supply proof of great rental in Auckland, very hard to come across I would imagine
Might be some crappy apartments in central Auckland returning 7% yield, but with high turnover and limited potential for capital gains, not too mention leaky building issues
all hail Rodney
I concur - great analysis.
I concur - great analysis.
Wasnt the front page story
Wasnt the front page story in the press today (chch) average house price up 7k to 347,000 from last all time high in nov 07? Expected growth for chch 5-10 % this year? Thats were all your good returning rentals are Matt, forget about overpriced auckland.
Matt in Auck One of
Matt in Auck
One of my rentals I bought in 2008 20% below CV in a pre-mortgagee sale. Was offered 80K more above the purchase price last month. Weather board three beddy renting $370...Im happy bought in the recession and bought to hold for my kids in the future
Mr Dickens instead of choosing a sub set of 13 beachfront far north properties to analyse how about doing an analysis of Auckland suburbs-where the majority of the 20000 immigrants from 2009 are now living. The demand for quality property on a train/bus route with good schools is always strong
"This is why I expect much of the gap between house and section prices on the one hand and incomes and rents on the other hand to be closed more by incomes and rents grinding higher than by actual house and section prices falling."
Yes I would like this to happen/likely to happen (esp in Aucks)
Economy of language would be
Economy of language would be nice!!! Very simple conclusions really, just add in a little behavioral economics which usually never hits a media report.
Rodney, if the Herald misquoted
Rodney, if the Herald misquoted you so erroneously, why weren't you phoning the Business Editor 3 times a day 7 days a week until he/she published a retraction?
Did they publish a retraction Rodney?
Maybe you should have been a co-winner with Bernard of the "Dicky Crystal Ball" award.
Matt : Fair enough .
Matt : Fair enough . But you do the NZHarold a disservice , the wombats are over at Unfairfax . Albeit more in management than in the journo's room ............. cubicle . Still , we hav'nt got a rebuttal from the White House , re. my assertion about Barack ................. Hmmmmmmm , onto something here . ............... No harm in having some fun with a prediction or two . Wish more would come up with some weird & wonderful prognostications . At least TA says housing to rise 5-10 % over the next 12 months . No guts , no glory , Bernard !
Net migration, interest rates, the
Net migration, interest rates, the difference between construction cost and existing house prices, the level of new construction, the inflation environment, national (and local) economic performance, changing household size and demographics, the changing standard of housing, tax and mortgage availability have as much to do with variations in real house prices as anything else, yet Rodney's analysis doesn't seem to consider any of this.
Without recognising why prices have deviated from past levels it's impossible to make any sensible predictions.
For example: if prices were at the long term trend when interest rates were 18% then being only 25% above that long term trend when interest rates are 6% doesn't seem quite so bad.
Who cares, i'm building a
Who cares, i'm building a boat the ocean is the real untapped real estate
Im rather amazed at the
Im rather amazed at the number of posts who have obviosly just "skimed" thru rather than actually reading and thinking thru, and actually understood what Rod has said. and the whys...
In this neck of the woods we call it "Opening ones mouth to change feet"
here's an exmaple of a
here's an exmaple of a good returns: a friend of mine bought a 3 rental properties in Tokoroa - all with a long term rent to Housing NZ. He paid 378K for the three and combined rental income is $765/week - this is roughly 10% returns. Ok in Tokoroa, it probably won't get a huge capital gain but then it beside the point.
Investing in property in Tokoroa................guy
Investing in property in Tokoroa................guy has balls GingerBM!
That person once told me
That person once told me that one can't go wrong with places like Tokoroa - always been well looked after by our social welfare safety net!
If Tokoroa man was an
If Tokoroa man was an all cash investor then it is worth doing even in Tokoroa but no point if highly geared and only profit expected to come from capital gain cause that will be a long time coming. The Aussies have already made the capital gains in Tokoroa and now they have cut and run.
P.S. Rodneys ravings have been inconsistent throughout 2009 - nothings changed!
That person has a lot
That person has a lot of eggs in one basket.
28/29 year old - unless you're contending that you can still buy as many as you want of those 3 bedroom houses 20% below CV, the example is kinda irrelevant. I bet you also could have bought a different house for 20% above CV and have offers $80k below the purchase price.
Rodney has there been any
Rodney has there been any charting of 6 month deposit rates with 24% RWT (or the other levels where applicable) removed versus the rental return with depreciation factored in? Investments rentals returns are so different from case to case. Some investors using LAQC's are offsetting against income for tax efficiency reasons.With the lack of a capital gains tax property is still a very desirable place to park your investments.
Is there some way to show this extremely complex relationship on a chart ?
Who says rental increases have
Who says rental increases have to keep up with house price increases. They don't in most cities in Asia and Europe. Look at teh percentage of people renting in London, Berlin, Munich, Seoul, Tokyo etc - it is getting higher as the years and decades roll on. The same thing is happening in New Zealand. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. It's a fact of life.
With superannuation likely to be chopped in 20 years time, and teh ages risen to meet life expectancies and government surplus projections; you have to be able to provide for yourself. The NZ sharemarket is internationally seen as a joke. Term Deposits by definition have no capital appreciation. What does it leave? Like many Eastern Asian colleagues I will continue to pour money into the cheap (by price per square metre of land and buildings) Auckland and Wellington housing markets. New Zealand will prosper with its new trade relationships as it becomes the servant and food provider for the rapidly growing Asian economic powerhouses.
Gingerbreadman - The comparatively high rates and insurance costs, when sensibly providing for higher vacancy rates that a town has, and repairs and maintenance expenditure, will mean that for owning properties in Tokoroa the property may not actually make cash profits if 80% debt financed.
the rental props in Tokroa
the rental props in Tokroa I mentioned has HNZ leases so low maintenance and vacancy rate - I assumed that are his criteria for investment portfolio
For the record, seeing no-one
For the record, seeing no-one else has done it for Rodney yet.
What he said in a report (not specifically to the Herald) was THIS
"....To get the Rental Yield back to the historical average of 7.7%, the average rental income will have to increase 71%, or the median house price will have to fall 42%. Or, more likely, some combination of the two will unfold....."
http://www.sra.co.nz/pdf/Housing42.pdf
Incidentally, the BODY of the "Herald" article quoted Rodney accurately. So if you want to hold this against Rodney on the basis that you only read headlines..........DUH.
Great work, Rodney. Keep it up.
John chen said: "Who says
John chen said:
"Who says rental increases have to keep up with house price increases. They don't in most cities in Asia and Europe. Look at teh percentage of people renting in London, Berlin, Munich, Seoul, Tokyo etc "“ it is getting higher as the years and decades roll on. The same thing is happening in New Zealand. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. It's a fact of life."
You are not comparing apples with apples. Much of the rental property in Europe is Social Housing. Rental increases in those places may not have kept up with price increases - however property crashes took care of that in most of those cities, so that large house price declines brought rental yields back to more sustainiable levels.
John Chen, your analysis is
John Chen, your analysis is astute. But please consider, firstly, the issues raised by Hugh Pavletich about land reform. Tighter Urban limits based on conservation ideology have resulted in urban fringe sections inflating in "value" 10 - 20 times over the last couple of decades. All the "bubble" behavior has been in land values, not the structures themselves.
These bubbles are set to become more and more economically destructive unless land supply reforms take place. Randall O'Toole's recent "How Urban Planners Caused the Housing Bubble":
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa646.pdf
- shows that urban limits not only allow these bubble prices to go so high, but they prevent the "bottom" of the slumps from reaching even historically affordable price levels. Where markets might have historically cycled between high and low median multipliers of 2.5 and 3.5; in tough urban limit jurisdictions they are tending to cycle between 4.5 and 7.0; or 5.0 and 9.0; or that sort of thing.
Of course, this can't go on forever. Property price bubbles are much more destructive to the economy than any other sort of bubble. The total sums of money involved are much greater than share market bubbles.
We do indeed have a serious problem on our hands, regarding "what to invest in". Property will seem to be good only until it kills the entire "rest of the economy". When you have a recession and unemployment, yet property prices are "rebounding", and net debt is increasing (based heavily on mortgages and property loans), this can't go on forever. Real people with real savings, are necessary somewhere along the line, for an economic cycle to sustain itself.
The government desperately needs to make it worthwhile again, to invest in businesses that produce things and employ people. If we as a people are too politically spiteful to allow reductions in company tax, for example, we are well on the way to collective economic suicide. Barriers to business activity, especially from Councils RMA powers, are another huge problem.
John Chen says, and most people would agree with him,
".....New Zealand will prosper with its new trade relationships as it becomes the servant and food provider for the rapidly growing Asian economic powerhouses....."
But Professor Paul Callaghan points out very well in "From Wool to Weta" and "Beyond the Farm and Theme Park", that primary produce and tourism result mostly in low paying employment. Not to mention worse pollution of the environment than most modern industries.
This is where I make a reconnection with the land supply issue. It makes no sense at all for any country to be allowing its abundant land to be utilised at low prices for farming activities ONLY, while all those much more valuable activities such as modern industry, right from their potential start-up by young whiz kid entrepreneurs, are penalised by having to pay 30 times as much for their land as a farmer does (when the latter will only provide a fraction of the incomes to his employees and his country, of the former).
Jim Rogers, who was George Soro's business partner for years, is advising young American entrepreneurs to take their skills to Asia where they are not going to be penalised by anti-business political ideologies in land use, resource use, taxation, employment law and so on. David P. Goldman writes in the Asia Times Online, that Westerners, on current political trajectories, can expect their grandchildren to be carrying coffee to Chinese and Indian bosses.
Matt in Auckland, Germany is
Matt in Auckland,
Germany is an interesting case. While NZ has had a property bubble along with many other countries (especially Ireland and Britain and Spain and parts of the USA), property prices in Germany have remained static and now young Kiwis thinking of moving there are pleasantly surprised.
Oliver Marc Hartwich, in "Bigger Better Faster More" a few years ago, analysed the land and building supply situation in several countries, and concluded that Germany's approach to these things was preventing Germany from experiencing bubbles in the value of the land as other nations were. That makes Germany an honourable exception along with the various States of the USA identified by Hugh Pavletich and Wendell Cox and Randall O'Toole and so on.
PhilBest Interesting observation. Germany is
PhilBest
Interesting observation. Germany is well know as being an example of a country with liberal / flexible planning controls. Their residential zonings usualy allow a mix of housing, duplexes and small scale flats are permitted in even low density zones. I'm sure this has had an effect on stbale house prices.
however it would be easy to overemphasise this. There have been other factors at play in Germany - the re-unification and subsequent weak economic performance , and migration policy that has generally attracted low wealth migrants would also be factors in lack of house price inflation
From California - http://thehotsheetpca.com/return-of-the-jedi-h
From California -
http://thehotsheetpca.com/return-of-the-jedi-homebuilder-1399.html
- Return of the Jedi homebuilder
"“ where astute building firms are securing distressed land and moving new stock at $400,000 below existing stock prices.
If State's and local governments woke up to the reality, that if they want to solve their fiscal problems, they had better open up land supply and "allow" normal development. Developers should make it known that they are in the market to do 5,000 new lots; which region wants 5,000 new ratepayers badly enough to allow affordable land to be released?
This is somewhat how it does work in Germany, if you read Oliver Marc Hartwich on the subject.
Another interesting development, is in Britain, the organisation "AudaCity" is trying to get a protest movement going whereby a few thousand young people establish an "illegal" settlement on legally purchased, but not rezoned, farmland. Sections for $5,000 each, boys, how about it? And the cost of putting in your own water and sewage and energy and even roads, will be very much lower than what councils are ripping everyone off for "development contributions"; $20,000 each would amply cover it. "Sustainable" methods come into their own in this situation; what's not to like about it?
Matt in Auckland, when you
Matt in Auckland, when you say,
"......weak economic performance , and migration policy that has generally attracted low wealth migrants would also be factors in lack of house price inflation......."
In what way is Germany worse than NZ regarding those very factors? Are you forgetting our primary source of low wealth migrants?
Another major difference between us and Germany, is that even under "weak economic performance" Germany has continued to have the world's biggest net trade and BOP surpluses, and huge net wealth rather than net debt.
The fact that Germany can have these things and affordable housing, and Texas can have the USA's fastest economic and population growth and affordable housing, tends to reinforce the argument that affordable housing is an ingredient in success, and unaffordable housing is an ingredient in failure; while most people have got this exactly the wrong way around in their heads.
I know its not as
I know its not as easy to quantify as raw price data, but I am picking the huge level of improvements done to properties in the last 10 years is a hidden factor in price increases as well as a buffer in the recent downturn. Renovations and additions have added value especially to urban properties in sought after areas. Can any agency provide figures on those properties bought and sold that have been essentially unchanged? I suspect the price increases and declines would be significantly different from the usual figures bandied about. I saw one North Shore agent a year ago who had 4 properties bought in 2004/05 and sold in 2008, all of them unaltered. His table showed a 15-20% decline in prices. How many people have bought a house, renovated and sold for loss but in the raw data it shows as a big gain? Some houses apart from their address and section size are so altered, 50-100% bigger and more luxurious that any price comparison is almost meaningless.
PhilBest - don't have figures
PhilBest - don't have figures to hand but I would imagine NZ's economic growth and employment figures have looked much better than Germany's over the last 10 years
Most of our immigration has been higher skilled / higher wealth individuals. much of Germany's has been refugees and lower wealth immigration from Turkey etc
For those dreaming that Bollard
For those dreaming that Bollard can keep rates down, you had better read this:
http://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/blackrock-bets-on-inflation-pi...
The point is, if a peasant saver can easily open an aussie account and get aussie rates with the promise of a capital gain on a Kiwi drop, why would the peasant put their loot in a bank in Noddyland?.....
The banks here will also see returns are better across the Tas and are certain to answer mortgage questions with "sorry but our rates are driven by events across the ditch".
-Hi, I think your website
-Hi, I think your website is interesting very colorful. Good job! I feel helping job seekers finding their ream home jobs are a fulfilling quest. Good luck in your quest too.
home based
Fascinating stuff guys, I happen
Fascinating stuff guys, I happen but chance to be fully cashed up and renting in Auckland. I do not have a lot of cash, and really want to make wise decisions with it. Property investment for me still seems attractive"¦ for this simple reason, if you buy well, well under CV, then fully gear as much as possible, you can possibly refinance a year or two down the line "“ even if property values drop, pull out much of your original deposit and you'll have someone pay off the asset for you by 2035!
Let's say (using today's values and figures) the property is worth $200K today and $200K by 2035, so no capital gain. For nothing you still have $200K that has been covered and paid off by the tenants.
Additionally, the rent being paid to you is completely relative, so if $200 today and $500 in 2035, you'll be able to buy the same thing"¦
So, if we look at yields against property values or other investments maybe it doesn't stack up"¦ but what investment pays itself off? And gives you your deposit back..
Look the numbers aren't quite right I know, but I think you understand my point. Have I missed something? Or does this make sense?
It still seems the simplest, safest and secure method of setting myself up for the future.
Your comments are welcome.
Thanks
Rich, "Have I missed something?
Rich,
"Have I missed something? Or does this make sense?
"
You have missed a lot. For a start, all investments hopefully pay some sort of yield whether it be interest, dividends (or reinvestment pushing gains) etc etc. At the moment property pays pretty much the worst yields by a country mile (exception being TDs which are temporarily depressed by emergency OCR), and that is before you take into account the additional costs associated with property ownership (transactional, rates, maintenance, insurance etc).
You are right to consider a senario where the cap value of property stagnates, as this is quite possible over the next 20 years (eg Japan). In this scenario, based on 3.5% yield after costs, mortgage rates of 8%, you will need to wait around 15 years for rental to be enought to cover your costs. Thats a big loss. So why not just put your money in the bank, earn interest, and put away the savings you make by renting as opposed to buying. Then buy again when the market resembles sanity.
What investment pays itself off?
An investment that is positively geared, which most property can not be unless you inject an enormous 50% deposit (and then you lose the ability to invest that money elsewhere).
Just want to add that it is
Just want to add that it is really awfull how we are just consuming ever natural resource available on Earth. How will our children make it in the worl today. Please try to help by making some changes if not for me or yourself, do it for your children. I am doing my part here.