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Up to NZ$400 mln taxpayer cost of guarantee scheme is 'premium paid to avoid potential catastrophic losses'
Finance Minister Bill English says the up to NZ$400 million haircut taxpayers will take on the Government's retail and wholesale guarantee schemes is the price they have to pay for avoiding potential "catastrophic losses" during the Global Financial Crisis over the past 18 months.
(Update adds comments from David Cunliffe and Russel Norman).
In a statement to Parliament this afternoon English defended the Government's handling of South Canterbury Finance (SCF) which was covered by the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee scheme and sank into receivership last week at an initial cost to taxpayers of some NZ$1.775 billion.
English noted that the world was in turmoil when the guarantee scheme was introduced in October 2008 by the then Labour-led government. He said SCF's balance sheet had expanded only slightly whilst it was covered by the guarantee and that the "great majority" of its problem lending occurred prior to the Allan Hubbard controlled company entering the guarantee.
Once it became apparent SCF was in difficulty, English said there were proposals to either acquire parts of the group or to recapitalise it.
"I instructed Treasury officials to work co-operatively with the firm on these options," English said. "However, all effectively amounted to a bailout by the Crown, with extra cost and risk to taxpayers. At no stage would the Treasury have recommended accepting any of these proposals."
Ultimately it was insolvency not a lack of liquidity that brought the curtains down on SCF. Once the receivership was completed, English said this would largely complete a cycle that started in October 2008.
"When the fees collected from the wholesale and retail guarantee schemes are included, the net cost is likely to be between NZ$300 million to NZ$400 million," said English.
Related Topics
"While this cost to taxpayers is considerable, this expenditure did help prevent the potential collapse of the financial system. In the light of ongoing bank bailouts around the world, this net cost is the premium our economy has paid to avoid potential catastrophic losses to the taxpayer over the last 18 months."
Opposition critcism
However, English and the Government came under attack from Labour's finance spokesman David Cunliffe and Green Party co-leader Russel Norman. Cunliffe said "serious questions" needed to be answered. These included how much the Government knew and when, whether SCF should have been in the guarantee scheme, whether it had been in breach of its eligibility, what deals were on the table to save it before it coollapsed into receivership and what other options were mulled and dismissed.
And Norman said Parliament's finance and expenditure select committee should hold an inquiry into SCF and the Government's actions.
Read Bill English's statement below:
I wish to make a ministerial statement under Standing Order 347, in relation to the receivership of South Canterbury Finance and its coverage under the Crown Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme. The Deposit Guarantee Scheme was announced by the previous Government, who set the terms of the guarantee, in late 2008, and was supported by the incoming Government.
At that time the turmoil in world financial markets caused many OECD governments to take unprecedented steps to protect their financial systems, including nationalising banks and providing sweeping sovereign guarantees for most financial system deposits. Administration of the scheme was delegated to the Secretary to the Treasury, in accordance with policy guidance set by the Minister of Finance. South Canterbury Finance was admitted to the scheme on 19 November 2008.
The essential test for admission was whether it appeared necessary or expedient in the public interest. Under the Deed of Guarantee, participants could take on increased deposits and lending, but were required to pay fees in respect of any growth. Allowing participants to continue lending was a major aim of the guarantee scheme. At the time South Canterbury Finance appeared sound. In June 2008 Standard and Poor's had affirmed a stable BBB- credit rating, and commented that "asset quality is sound, underpinned by a modest risk appetite, proactive risk management, and sound underwriting standards".
However, this was not necessarily the case. In the four and a half years to December 2008 South Canterbury Finance's assets had almost doubled from $1.1 billion to $2.16 billion. As 2009 evolved, it became clear that much of this additional lending was not high quality. The balance sheet expanded slightly under the guarantee, peaking at $2.35 billion in June 2009. It is clear however that the great majority of problem lending occurred prior to entering the guarantee. In mid-2009, the Treasury appointed KordaMentha as advisors to report on the company's financial position. The June 2009 Crown accounts included a provision of $831 million for the Deposit Guarantee Scheme.
The majority of this related to South Canterbury Finance. Assessing the potential risk was complicated by related-party lending, generally poor credit and accounting processes, and more recently the departure of most of the senior management. Despite this deteriorating position, South Canterbury Finance remained in compliance with the Deed of Guarantee, and as such there was no ability or cause for the Crown to withdraw their guarantee.
If, for whatever reason, South Canterbury Finance's guarantee had been withdrawn, existing depositors would have still been covered for the full term, and the Crown's exposure would have remained. In September 2009, the Government moved, with unanimous support in the House, to extend the Retail Deposit Guarantee until the end of 2011, though on significantly more restrictive terms than previously.
On 1 April 2010, South Canterbury Finance was approved for entry to the extended scheme when it started in October 2010. Their admission into the extended guarantee did not materially change the Government's risk in the event of default. In the event, because South Canterbury Finance entered receivership before October, the extended guarantee never applied. Payments to depositors will be made under the terms of the original scheme.
During the period of the guarantee, the Treasury and their advisors were in close contact with the firm. Once it became apparent the firm was in difficulty, there were proposals either to acquire parts of the firm or to recapitalise. I instructed Treasury officials to work co-operatively with the firm on these options. However, all effectively amounted to a bailout by the Crown, with extra cost and risk to taxpayers. At no stage would the Treasury have recommended accepting any of these proposals.
At the request of its directors, South Canterbury Finance was placed in receivership on 31 August. The ultimate cause was insolvency, not lack of liquidity. The Government then moved promptly to ensure that depositors could be repaid swiftly. As well as repaying $1.6 billion of remaining depositors, the Government extended a loan facility of $175 million to the receivers to ensure prompt repayment of prior charge holders, and extended the guarantee to a small number of previously ineligible depositors.
These decisions were taken for commercial reasons. They avoided the need to pay ongoing interest that otherwise would have accrued over many months or years as investors submitted claims, and also the risk that receivership might be controlled by prior charge holders, to the potential disadvantage of the Crown. Treasury estimates that the net saving to the Crown is about $100 million as a result.
The Government's recent moves ensure that the receivership will be conducted in an orderly fashion that minimises disruption to businesses either financed or owned by South Canterbury Finance. The Receivers this week called for expressions of interest from possible buyers of South Canterbury Finance's assets. While the Crown has had to make good its guarantees to depositors, it will recover some of the proceeds out of receivership.
Once the receivership is finished, this will largely complete the cycle that began in October 2008.
When the fees collected from the wholesale and retail guarantee schemes are included, the net cost is likely to be between $300-$400 million. While this cost to taxpayers is considerable, this expenditure did help prevent the potential collapse of the financial system. In the light of ongoing bank bailouts around the world, this net cost is the premium our economy has paid to avoid potential catastrophic losses to the taxpayer over the last 18 months.
79 Comments
Makes sence to me
Makes sence to me
Sorry Mr English, you can't
Sorry Mr English, you can't just make such statements without a challenge.
The scheme wasn't necessary nor desirable, and the tardy and soft response to dealing with SCF's insolvency cost the taxpayer about $177m more than necessary given the scheme.
See here for the full argument and evidence: http://www.lostsoulblog.com/2010/09/govt-we-expected-scf-to-fail-since-j...
Ta for the link David top
Ta for the link David top draw as usual.
When is Hubbard going to say
When is Hubbard going to say sorry!
I cannot support the govt in
I cannot support the govt in any justification as to why SCF was included in the govt gtee scheme.
The demise falls squarely at the feet of Alan Hubbard, the board and the senior management.
If the receiver finds a breach of fiduciary duty then the gtee should not be honoured. I don't support Labour for introducing the gtee in the 1st instance and cannot support National for allowing finance companies into the gtee
if the cost is about $400m then the depositors should incur the approx 25cents in the dollar loss.
As a side issue i have just read a book called "The Believers" by Adam Lebor, which is an account of the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme. The similarities with Aorangi Securities and HFM are very similar, just on different scales. I am certainly of the view that if Aorangi/HFM were not a ponzi scheme they were rapidly heading that way.
When you go too the casino
When you go too the casino and lose you don't then go to government and ask for your money back Bill! People have NO choice but too use banks for their mortgages & their wage payments via DD. A finance company's sole purpose is to make people money via 'gambling and risk'. What other OECD government around the world includes finance companies in their GGS Bill? NO ONE! because it would be stupid! So i can only guess that it was done of purpose to steal taxpayer money, hence i will be askingfor all investors names via the FIA.
Your a thief Bill and i intend to prove it.
Since the CHCH earthquakes Tower insurance has lost money for investors, the worst kind of investor, those that profit from peoples 'perceptual fear'. If Tower go under Bill do those scum ass investors get bail out Bill? Where does a tax payer's thief like you draw the line?
Good luck to you on
Good luck to you on that...dig in and don't let go.
What are you jumping on your
What are you jumping on your high horse for. You CEOs screw people all over the world on a daily basis. Maybe you want to look at yourselves before running down others.
Not entirely sure who you
Not entirely sure who you were targeting there Ivan...but please do read the thread before the de-horsing process gets into full swing......
No piety intended.
Isn't it about time Standard
Isn't it about time Standard & Poors were sent a ' please explain'.
SCF was rated BBB- throughout 2008 and as such it was one of very few Finance to achieve an ' investment grade ' rating. This is a major reason why banks were offering SCF as a sound investment and investors piled in.
If I worked for that rating agency I'd be a worried man. Then again, If they were duped by clever accounting are these ratings ever worth the paper they are printed on?
Yes it is Stuart.
Yes it is Stuart.
Never ceases to amaze me how
Never ceases to amaze me how the taxpayer rolls over when the blinds are drawn and the shut shop delivery rings of finality.
What English is asking us to do is read between the lines and understand just how precarious our position was in terms of financial exposure of wider banking interests.
Well I say you cannot have it both ways Billy Bob either you explain ..as Minister of Finance..just ....how exposed we were to warrant the option exercised....or you explain the unanswered questions... at an inquiry.... as raised by Cunliffe and others...in the interests of transparency and good Governance.
You..Billy Bob and John Boy are back to your best form in terms of treating the Voter like something caught on your boot........there is a ....Need To KNOW...here.
You don't just hand me a bill and tell me I don't need to know what it is for no matter how little of it you ..think I would understand.
The point is you will have discharged you obligations ..to the wider public...in doing so.
If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear and if your concern is based on perceptions ...I can tell you it's all bad from where I'm seeing it right now....so no loss there uh...?
P.S. with fond regard and respect Bernard you did the job on SFC..well done..now see it through to a conclusion.
The blame lies with the
The blame lies with the credit crunch and Mr Hubbard and the board.
Hubbard was sick with cancer for two years which caues his kidney problems. When he returned the company was gone. So where are the other directors like Ed Sullivan and the biggest mouth of all Stuart Nattrass. He was a director and Hubbard supported him to the hilt including giving him sufficiient votes to get on the Fonterra board - He wouldn't have been on the Fonterra board withouit Hubbard. Nattrass was only as good as Hubbard made him - as is proven since he left SCF, he has not been invited on any other boards of note.
Nattrass is now going public blaming Hubbard.
Ed Sullivan is also remarkably silent.
Both of these directors took out major laons with SCF which they otherwise would have not have obtained from mainstream lenders.
Hubbard is no angel,( he failed to meet some regulatory requirements but stole no money ) andt he doesn't deserve to take the whole flak for the demise of SCF.
Stand up Nattrass and Sullivan and man up- take some of the blame!!
"The blame lies with the
"The blame lies with the credit crunch and Mr Hubbard and the board."
No, the blame lies with Hubbard.
Think of the credit crunch as lie detector.
It uncovered all sorts of shenanigans.
Agreed. But bemused does make
Agreed. But bemused does make a good point re the other Dirctors. A bit like, no one's seen Greg Muir since the Hanover disaster.
Not arguing that
Not arguing that Bemused....so that's it ..? it stops there..? you read about it in ten years after the cleaners have finished sanitising ..?
John Key knew SCF should
John Key knew SCF should never have received it's S&P acceptable rating this year. Govt were extremely aware of its bad books & how it's rating wasn't inline.
I personally said to John Key a long time ago back in March-April "However did SCF get that rating?" John Key said "Well yes" (he knew what I meant) John then diverted subject to his budget he was working on. Govt were freaking & turned a blind eye, while keeping one eye totally glued to it, so that SCF didn't fall. Bet John wishes Govt hadn't allowed it to float for so long now, as it would have been dealt with long before falling around the quake. I don't think new zealands a free market when Govt played a poker hand & a poker face here for awhile.
Southland dairy farmers had a
Southland dairy farmers had a lot to lose from an imploding SCF.
Southland dairy farmers had a lot of personal financial exposure.
Southland dairy farmers made damn certain they were at the very top of the creditors list.
The Southland dairy farmers let their boss escape overseas for a while before getting their money back.
The Southland dairy farmers did this because their boss said he didn't want to be hit by the negative feedback.
Avarice, cowardice and selfishness.
Bemused do you know why
Bemused do you know why those two directors resigned from the company in August 2009?
Yes Richard They were
Yes Richard
They were concerned that they would get the blame that they deserve and tried to disctance themselves and desert the sinking ship that they cerated - Nattrass was a director from 2002 until 2009 when the company grew dramatically.
Did you know that all the damage was done before August 2009?? And with the full board approval.
Nattrass wanted to float the company in 2008 - how good would that have been??
So Fonterra shareholders are
So Fonterra shareholders are not stupid afterall. They voted Nuttrass off their board. Even the big voters couldn't save him under the single transferable system. If it hadn't been for that system, he would have got back on.
It is often the women in farming partnerships that vote in the elections and the resounding message from women that saw him at candidate meetings was that Nuttrass was so arrogant. He said at meetings that he wanted to float Fonterra and if it didn't happen, then he would go. We saved him the trouble and voted him off instead.
Moral of the story: if women are a force in the voting, don't p.ss them off with arrogance! :-)
I absolutely think there
I absolutely think there needs to be an enquiry into this case. The lack of oversight is serious in many areas. Labour put the scheme in place in a big hurry and Im sure it wasn’t perfect but times was against them. National in the first 100 days took credit for putting that scheme in place unaltered. We can call that a draw. Where it went seriously wrong for the tax payer is when the government let SCF roll over into the modified scheme (knowing it had serious issues) and some people made a lot of money out of the guarantee. If the wine box was worth an enquiry this certainly is. The Maori party make a very good point below.
It seems globally we have first class citizens (those connected to the financial industries) who can behave how they like, rob shareholders savings, drag their respective countries into debt, mortage our childrens future and still hold their hands out for rewards. But we the great unwashed get told to “suck it up” don’t you know there is a recession. I smell a few rats here. Bring on an enquiry!
From the Herald
But Labour finance spokesman David Cunliffe said questions needed to be asked of the Government to ensure such a collapse did not happen again.
"What went wrong and was the cost to taxpayers really minimised?" he said.
Green Party co-leader Russel Norman said Parliament's finance and expenditure select committee should hold an open inquiry into South Canterbury and the Government's actions.
Maori Party MP Te Ururoa Flavell said Maori were comparing the $1.6 billion with the $1 billion cap put on Treaty of Waitangi settlements 15 years ago.
"That was $1 billion to settle all claims for a Maori population at the last census of 643,977 people. It compares miserably with $1.6 billion paid by the Crown to settle with a few unhappy investors," he said.
We do need
"That was $1 billion to
"That was $1 billion to settle all claims for a Maori population at the last census of 643,977 people. It compares miserably with $1.6 billion paid by the Crown to settle with a few unhappy investors,"
But the "unhappy investors" included very senior members of the government.
We..........
We.......... need......to......KNOW.....if ...that ....was ....a ....fact.
I still want to know the foreign investment guest list that may provide some answers as to .......who ......came and went out the back door.
It would be very interesting
It would be very interesting to know who is getting those handouts!
Doesn't it seem strange that all those other finance companies went splat after tons of dodgy dealing and almost none of the directors copped any punishments yet poor old Alan down in the deep south loans some money to farmers and is all of a sudden crucified by this govt when the market turns?
" we the great unwashed get
" we the great unwashed get told to “suck it up” don’t you know there is a recession. I smell a few rats here..." gosh Selwyn you should see a doctor old boy..the stench is overpowering...maybe you have the flu!
Ever tried to herd cats Selwyn...even the dogs just go "woof" and leap into the nearest pond. Cunliffe is just blowing steam to improve the profile in the House. SCF is history old boy...buried in the Beehive cellar for all time. There are bigger rorts afoot now. Keep your eye on who gets what in the way of contracts in Canterbury.
Your right about Cunny...
Your right about Cunny... Wally..but that's no reason not to start milking him to his word.
He opens his dummy...he has access to the system ...I say we lean on him with the sniff of a swing.
On the sauce again
On the sauce again Christov...!
See David Hillary's link at
See David Hillary's link at top of roll.........worth the visit and worth pursuing.....Bernard used Headlines like .....A Fish stinks from the Head....
Well it seems to me you missed the stench coming from the guts of it Bernard because the Head's gone....................and the fish is ...STINKING TO HIGH HIGH HEAVEN..
Anonymous at 10.53am, The
Anonymous at 10.53am,
The "unhappy investors" included very senior members of the government.
Do you have any proof of this?
Should I take that as a no
Should I take that as a no then?
Wow! I wish I could get
Wow! I wish I could get others to do my work for me.
Come on Gareth! Your sposed
Come on Gareth!
Your sposed to be a reporter!
Here's what we want to know --- Why did the government go after AH boots and all even though they refused to do anything about the Hanovers and the other fishy FC messes?
There's smoke (SI dealings with dairy) but is there any fire?
Aren't you hot shot journos sposed to love these kinds of stories???
Barnesy, Did you not see the
Barnesy,
Did you not see the second statutory manager's report on Allan Hubbard? - http://www.interest.co.nz/news/statutory-manager-sees-alarming-gap-betwe...
The issues raised there probably give a good indication of why the Govt & SFO are interested/concerned.
You can be sure that assorted regulators have/are taking a close look at Hanover. But the question is did they break any laws?
Sounds like a load of old
Sounds like a load of old cobbler to me GM.
Are you saying the other shonky finance companies didn't break just about every rule in the book?
Put it this way: those guys were in Auckland and other major cities, loaning to city property developers and city mums and dads, but Mr Hubbard was financing a load of south island farming projects.
What makes his business more of a concern to this government than the dealings of shonky city boys?
Look at how they did it. See how it was stage managed, with Fearless Leader safely hiding out of harm's way overseas and the other top guys noticeably ducking for cover behind Austin Powers who took the brunt of criticism.
Maybe everything was entirely above board but there is certainly reason to be suspicious of motives and methods.
Gareth The directors and
Gareth
The directors and Consulatnt at Hanover Finance and Strategic Finance personally benefited from extracting vast sums of money out of these companies by way of excessive dividends and related party transactions. You only need to read their published financial accounts to know this.
Hubbard took not one red cent that he wasn't entitled to. The questionable deals he was involved in were not to benefit him - they were to benefit the investors - he put in over $250M of other assets ( Helicopters NZ, Dairy Holdings and Scales ).
This whole attack is politically motivated and will turn out embarrassing for the National Government unless they stop the nonsense going on and leave Hubbard to retire in peace ( and now broke )
Meanwhile Mark Hotchin, Eric Watson, Jock Hobbs and Brian Fitzgerald all live in muti million dollar houses and drive flash cars and take expensive holidays - make sense?
ABSOLUTELY NOT
Bemused, We won't allow
Bemused,
We won't allow anyone to make allegations of criminal behaviour against anyone on this site without some form of proof or official investigation.
You make claims about the directors of Strategic and Hanover which no one has any proof of. You also make claims that senior figures in government or farming somehow orchestrated the Aorangi/Hubbard Statutory Management to protect their interests. Yet you have no proof.
We have repeatedly asked all and sundry for any credible evidence of this and we have seen nothing. It is currently a conspiracy theory that many Hubbard supporters choose to believe without evidence.
We know the Serious Fraud Office has said it is conducting a major investigation into Allan Hubbard's affairs. It extended and widened its investigation last week. http://www.interest.co.nz/news/sfo-boss-feeley-says-hubbard-probe-major-investigation-very-complex-range-issues
A quick reminder to all not to make any abusive, defamatory or racist comments on the site. I have removed a few from this thread.
Please register so you can comment after we turn off unregistered comments from this Sunday September 12. A reminder to all that we are moving to registered comments from this Sunday. We welcome any registered commenters.
We don't welcome commenters making abusive, defamatory or racist comments. They'll be deleted. We want to have good clean fun that makes us smile and think rather than swear, huff and puff, and feel slightly unclean.
Registered commenters can edit their comments and more easily include links out. We won't be spamming people. The box to register is in the right hand column. Here's more detail.
http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/heres-why-wed-you-register-be-commente...
We welcome any suggestions for other changes too to improve the quality (and quantity) of the debate here.
cheers Bernard
"Yet you have no proof." Is
"Yet you have no proof."
Is your telephone broken?
Lost your pen and notebook?
You've lost your directions to the Beehive?
Bernard, are you an actual journalist, or just another blogger?
Maybe the claims are true, and maybe they aren't: But in the old days journalists used to go find out. They didn't sit back and whine because others weren't doing their work for them.
Anonymous You think we
Anonymous
You think we haven't tried to find out? You think we have stopped?
We welcome any help we can get from anyone on this. Please email us at bernard.hickey@interest.co.nz or gareth.vaughan@interest.co.nz.
If anyone has proof please present it. Companies office records. Quotes from individuals. We'll keep trying.
Meanwhile we'll be routinely deleting any such accusations that are made in the conspiracy theory/broad assertion camp.
cheers
Bernard
Make some friends as you need
Make some friends as you need to Big B..........start with a Whispering Jack as the walls have ears.....there's the odd good man in there...failing that pick the egotists.
Should get some progress.....
You don't drink... do you.... Bernard...?
A Nats insider once leaked
A Nats insider once leaked Don Brash's email, so maybe they'd be willing to pull the rug out from under some of their other colleagues?
Unless of course that leaker happens to be the person of interest in this particular bit of intrigue. ;)
Now you're deleting replies
Now you're deleting replies urging you to investigate the allegations?
Why?
Are you afraid that Double Dipton will "cut you off" and stop doing coffee-cup interviews, costing you your claim to credibility?
OK, so you are just another amateur hour home blogger.
All respect gone.
Bye bye.
Anonymous (perhaps you could
Anonymous (perhaps you could register with real name or even a pseudonym...)
Sigh.
We have not deleted comments urging us to investigate things.
We have deleted defamatory comments made without evidence. That's because we don't just allow any old thing to be said on this site.
I have no fear of getting 'cut off'.
Sad to hear you have lost respect.
We'd welcome you back in registered form ;)
cheers
Bernard
I thought Hubbard was paid
I thought Hubbard was paid $10mio for his contribution of assets to SCF? That doesn't sound too 'broke' to me!
Gosh Anonymous You are not
Gosh Anonymous
You are not so bright
He gave $250M of assets in exchange for $10M - don't you think the $10M was used to pay off other debt or interest, so that he could achieve those transactions?????
No idea. You may know. What I
No idea. You may know. What I saw was a nominal purchase of assets by SCF to bolster the balance sheet. I recall commentators at the time noting " well that should be enough to see an octogenarian into the sunset" , or equivalent. If you think Hubbard is broke, that's your opnion. It's not mine.
A news piece on all of the
A news piece on all of the "incestuous old boy networks" concerning directors of NZ companies would be a good read. A lot of them are all interconnected in some way to each other. Most of them are on loads of boards. Nattrass is on PRC....Loughlin was ALF....and loads of others
Bemused, So what laws did
Bemused,
So what laws did Mark Hotchin, Eric Watson, Jock Hobbs and Brian Fitzgerald break by taking big dividends and paying themselves weighty salaries?
Gareth......it is appreciated
Gareth......it is appreciated that you are simply pointing out legal facts of the matter....and at the same time being seen to hold no bias.....and that is just fine and quite correct.
Perhaps what Bemused is sensing here is a preciousness about the victory you.. savor followed by a relaxed attitude to other matters provided they discharged their legal obligations.
I intend no disrespect to your journalistic talents....just possible motive on bemused's part for angst.
Cheers Christov. And I
Cheers Christov.
And I understand and share the anger that people feel with the amount of investors' money many finance companies lost. There was immoral and unethical behaviour from the leadership of some of these firms. My point is that it wasn't all illegal.
I would point to what Adam Feeley said in this interview - http://www.interest.co.nz/news/sfos-live-finance-company-investigations-...
People ought to bear in mind there was a range of factors that caused the finance company collapses, he said. Some companies were caught out by the market and others were “fairly sharp” in their practices. There was a “big and important" distinction between commercially sharp and acting in a criminal manner.
“I think there’s a real issue for New Zealand to grapple with regarding the level of business and financial literacy of a lot of the investing public. And unfortunately I think we’ve got ourselves into a situation with the finance company collapse that there are large parts of the New Zealand public that won’t invest because they believe every time there’s a failure something criminal must have happened.”
There were some companies, which he declined to name, where the prospectuses were fairly clear, if complicated, about what people were investing in.
“And if people had read those prospectuses very carefully, and perhaps also taken good independent advice, they might have thought twice about whether they were good investments,” Feeley added.
So noted....cheers.
So noted....cheers.
So Gareth are are intimating
So Gareth are are intimating that no charges will be laid against Mark Hotchin, Eric Watson, Jock Hobbs and Brian Fitzgerald in the future? If so, the govt should abandon all regulation as there is simply no point in having a securities commission, companies office, and sfo.
Agreed. Everyone knows
Agreed.
Everyone knows there's something very unkoscher about the SCF debacle, and it's not representative of the state of things.
It is safe to assume that so long as you don't have dealings with certain people in high places you can safely rip off the elderly and anyone else under the guise of 'high finance' and no that you'll live it up on the proceeds and remain unpunished.
Just stay clear of south island dairy folk and you'll be fine.
Look at the SCF audited
Look at the SCF audited accounts. Only 200 million of the 1.6 Billion of lending was to agriculture sector most of the lending was to property development nearly 40%. Property developers and their expectations that property will keep rising in values is the problem.
Disclaimer: dont know if you can trust the audited accounts
Gareth, I wasn't aware that
Gareth,
I wasn't aware that these guys also took weighty salaries as well - so thank you for at least doing some research on that. Their related party transactions benefitted them personally as opposed to Hubbard who was pumping moeny into SCF.
You need to be careful here Gareth to protect your integrity.
At the moment Hubbard has not been charged with anything, so is innocent. Strategic is being investigated by the Securities Commission and SFO.
If Hubbard is not charged and the Strategic directors and consulatnt are charged, you ( as an authority and leading journalist ) will look like a pillock then.
My next question is why haven't you researched the latest report from the Strategic liquidators and reported on their horrendous position. Startegic and Hanover Finance will cost innvestors far more ( percentage wise ) than SCF will. Strategic didn't even qualify for the Government Guarantee scheme - that;s how bad they were then, let alone now.
Selective and lazy journalism ? I think so
Bemused, Strategic fell over
Bemused,
Strategic fell over before the government guarantee scheme was in place.
We have aggressively reported on the problems with Strategic for nearly 3 years.
Here is the latest on the problems at Strategic.
http://www.interest.co.nz/news/strategic-returns-likely-mirror-those-other-failed-property-financiers
http://www.interest.co.nz/news/interim-payout-no-more-25c-dollar-massive...
http://www.interest.co.nz/category/institutions/strategic-finance
Hard to describe us of being selective and/or lazy when looking at that list.
cheers
Bernard
Thanks Bernard For the
Thanks Bernard
For the record, one of the reports on your last link sates " Strategic Investors Face 75-90% Loss but becomes a lame heading of " Strategic returns likely to mirror those of other failed property financiers " when the link opens.
Bemused, Sigh. For the
Bemused,
Sigh. For the record. Here's what the first three paragraphs of that report said.
Strategic Finance debenture holders look like getting back no more money than investors in other failed property financiers, probably something between 10 and 25%, after its receiver revealed an initial distribution of no more 2.5 cents in the dollar. This would mean the confirmation of losses for 13,000 investors of more than NZ$300 million.
Other failed property financiers such as Bridgecorp, Capital + Merchant, Lombard Finance, Belgrave Finance, Dominion Finance and St Laurence, have returned, or are expected to return, between zero and 34% of investors’ money. Capital + Merchant’s expected returns are the least, at 0-2%, with St Laurence the highest at 34%.
See our Deep Freeze list here, which details how over 199,000 investors have NZ$6.8 billion frozen or lost in 59 finance companies, investment trusts and mortgage trusts.
cheers.
Bernard
There is only one pillock
There is only one pillock here and it sure as hell ain't Bernard.
Keep an eye on the outcome of
Keep an eye on the outcome of the directors of Dominion Finance.
They may have done similar things to many of the larger finance companies, only on a smaller scale.
"At the moment Hubbard ( also
"At the moment Hubbard ( also being investigated by the SFO and Securities Commission) has not been charged with anything, so is innocent. Strategic is being investigated by the Securities Commission and SFO ( ...and so by implication are also innocent, yes?)
Correct But Gareth and
Correct
But Gareth and Bernard ensure by their silence that they receive no adverse publicity despite having created more of a basket case than SCF - on percentage terms - and yet there related party transactions were for their personal benefit.
A little one sided I would say
Percentage terms? So. How
Percentage terms? So. How about we look at it in nominal terms. That's the qantum that the taxpayer has to deal with.
Folks, the Securities
Folks, the Securities Commission looks into all finance companies that collapse. Is the SFO investigating Strategic? Not that I'm aware.
Ask them if they are? That
Ask them if they are? That would be good investigative journalism - it might only take a phone call.
Prove me wrong
Double Shot interview with
Double Shot interview with Adam Feeley right here - http://www.interest.co.nz/news/sfos-live-finance-company-investigations-...
The answer dear readers is to
The answer dear readers is to join the National Party and worm your way up the ladder high enough to be in the room when the VIPs let lose with the hints and winks...and get the other half to join the Labour party where once again being in the room at the right time will reward the diligent brown noser. Just take care the pair of you are not seen together...ever!
All true Wally but not
All true Wally but not helpful...........come on matey you must have some forgotten maggot still belly walking the corridors...
pick up that phone Wally....for the sake of Humanity..!
p..s. Wally did you just call
p..s. Wally did you just call us .....Dear readers...?
A legend in his own mind.
A legend in his own mind.
now ..now.. nonny it was
now ..now.. nonny it was worth a smile not a shot. :) I think he'll have a quiet wince.
Oooooooooooooooooooh at last
Oooooooooooooooooooh at last some traction on a non property topic......I'm gonna cry ..I just know it.
Bill English can you explain
Bill English can you explain why people could withdraw funds from a mainstram bank restricted to offering 5% and then bung it in SCF offering 8% thanks to your guarantee and then to get this paid out.
My strongest reccomendation would have been that a 36 month hold be placed on these funds before they are paid out with these funds being invested elsewhere like the TAB .
The payout to only provide the principal and interest to 30th August 2010
A reasonable question, but I
A reasonable question, but I think it misses the real mystery: Why did the government pounce on Hubbard and SCF so hard and fast once it became clear to investigators that Hubbard's depositors and investors were in danger of facing a loss?
This did not happen with the other Finance Companies, even though it seemed as if there were reasons to suspect the same kind of funny-not-haha dealings as Hubbard's own, and in fact even worse stuff.
What made Hubbard's business a special case worthy of dramatic government intervention when all the others were blissfully ignored?
That's what I want to know.
Anonymous I fully agree with
Anonymous
I fully agree with you
The answer can only be that it is a political situation - maybe Hubbard pissed teh National party off when they were in opposition - maybe he funded the Labour party
Any of those two reasons are not enough to attack Hubbard as much as they have. Sure he will have done wrong with not following the paperwork and will get told off for that. The Securities Commission knew how he ran his business years ago, so why all the fuss now,.
Meanwhile Strategic has behaved in exactly the same way and personally benefitted and not one word from the authorities or the press in regard to that activity.
This could bite the Government where it hurts if they continue this nonsense.
You know the sad thing here
You know the sad thing here is that although our population has grown some ...we have come no further really politically speaking......
When Bureaucrats don't want to discuss something of public interest it's a closed shop...shutters go up...just like the old councils.....
You want answers..? well you'll be shitting red tape before sun up.
One thing I will give the yanks....they would shake this tree until something fell out even if was just the nuts that got loose up there.
Proof Bollard is full of
Proof Bollard is full of shit. Anyone else watch sundays Q&A interview?
http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/q-interview-alan-bollard-3760907/video
Yes of course...Justice...a
Yes of course...Justice...a must to view...and a must to miss after watching.
I did an encapsulation on Monday...I'll go find it see if you think my summation was thereabouts.
Here you go Justice.....lazy
Here you go Justice.....lazy posting ..but I got a busy day ahead..cheers!
Well I just watched and read the transcript......... and overall it could have gone something like this......
Guyon...... Dr Bollard you were in no doubt as to which Finance Companies were in a death roll were you not..?.
Bolly Bib.....er ah...I can't tell you that because the Banks were exposed....er no wait...they were not exposed..... but the potential for panic and the domino effect was certain....er that is that the er..well we covered it because we didn't understand it and needed time to think...in any case the worst case scenario was the tax payer bailing it out......ah look I can't say any more on that for er..um legal reasons....yeah legal reasons....
Guyon....Dr Bollard does it concern you that when shown the potential for some of these financial instruments..that you just plain did not understand it much less could prepare to defend against it.....?
Bolly Bib....Well.... er ..nobody else did either..! bloody smart arsed whizz kids and their fandangled quantum thingamebobs.......................................................aw............I wanna talk about me book...!
Guyon ...OK...why did you leave the job summit feel good camp to go to a cricket match.
Bolly Bib.... cause they had no hotdogs at the summit and I couldn't understand what the hell we were talking about.
Guyon....Dr Bollard thank you for coming in today and sharing bugger all with our viewers.
Bolly Bib....Up yours Espina.