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Monday's Top 10: Reform risk; China's loans; Germany's courts; a mega writeoff idea; corporate welfare fizzers; the drone race; Dilbert, and more

Monday's Top 10: Reform risk; China's loans; Germany's courts; a mega writeoff idea; corporate welfare fizzers; the drone race; Dilbert, and more

Here's my edition of Top 10 links from around the Internet at 10:00 am today. We now have a Monday-Wednesday-Friday schedule for Top 10.

Bernard will be back with his version this Wednesday. We will have another guest posting on Friday.

As always, we welcome your additions in the comments below or via email to david.chaston@interest.co.nz.

See all previous Top 10s here.

1. China's risky reforms
'Risk', 'reform' and 'finance' are three terms that go together everywhere.

But it does not get any bigger than in China.

Ian Bremmer and David Gordon have recently highlighted the huge risks - to everyone - about what is being embarked on in China.

We are in the middle of it, or perhaps at the beginning, and on a day-to-day basis it looks like BAU. But it's not. Change scares many people, but the process of change enables both the 'creative' and the 'destruction' parts to assert themselves. However there is no rule that says the process will result in benefits this time. Maybe they do in time over a long series of reforms.

But these types of grand, monumental reform processes can have uncertain results - and not necessarily positive or pleasant ones. We all have a huge stake in what happens next

When it comes to economic reform, China’s leaders no longer believe that time is on their side. With a new sense of urgency, President Xi Jinping and his inner circle are attempting one of the most ambitious economic and social-policy reform plans in history.

But in any authoritarian country, change creates risk. Consider the scale of the proposed plans. For China to reach the next stage of its development, a much larger share of Chinese-made products now destined for Europe, America, and Japan must be sold to consumers inside China. This shift will require a big increase in local purchasing power – and, therefore, an enormous transfer of wealth from large domestic companies to Chinese households.

In addition, China’s leaders appear to be on the verge of approving 12 new regional free-trade zones, which will drive competition and efficiency on a new scale in many economic sectors. They also recognize the need for further liberalization of the country’s financial system, a move that will require tolerance for outright defaults on bad loans – and the anxiety and anger that comes with them.

Here, as in other areas of the reform plan, change is dangerous; but Xi has come to believe that pressing ahead is vitally important if China is to take the next crucial steps toward building a middle-class, digital-age economy. Moreover, the reforms are crucial for the Chinese Communist Party’s long-term hold on power.

Same ol', same ol'. In 1844 folks apparently obsessed over the level of the national debt. I wonder what they would think of today's level.

2. Breath in
The Chinese banking system is getting more risky, and that's from official data out on Friday. The official China Banking Regulatory Commission said non-performing loans made by Chinese lenders reached ¥592 billion in the fourth quarter of 2013. They were last at this level in September 2008, the month Lehman Brothers folded.

The non-performing loan ratio of their Rural Commercial Bank is of special concern, I suspect.

It is being widely noted that this data shows that just the growth in Chinese bank lending in the past 5 years has been ¥89 trillion, about NZ$18 trillion - and this is about the same amount as the whole US banking industry, and more than the US GDP. Pray there is no Lehman Brothers event in China - even their huge foreign currency reserves may be no where near enough to get them out of a credit 'event'.

There is more here in this Bloomberg report:

Chinese banks are struggling to keep soured loans in check and extend earnings growth as the slowing economy and government efforts to curb shadow financing make it harder for borrowers to repay debt. Standard & Poor’s Ratings Services said this week that loan quality will decline in 2014 as banks remain at risk from debt-laden local government financing vehicles and manufacturers with too much capacity.

Investors are increasingly concerned that China’s investment through borrowing since 2008 may trigger a financial crisis, Haitong Securities Co. said in December. Liabilities at nonfinancial companies may increase to more than 150 percent of gross domestic product in 2014, raising default risks, the brokerage said. The ratio of 139 percent at the end of 2012 was already the highest among the world’s 10 biggest economies.

3. 'It's Europe or democracy'
The ECB should not be pleased with that German Constitutional Court decision on Mario Draghi's bond purchasing plans (The Big Bazooka).

Spiegel Online says the Constitutional Court is threatening to cause trouble, spelling it out in the detail of its decision.

The German justices insist that the German constitution sets limits on the ECB's strategy in the crisis. And that could have consequences that go far beyond the jurisdiction of the court in Karlsruhe. In a worst-case scenario, the Constitutional Court could forbid Berlin from contributing to efforts to save the euro or even force Germany to leave the currency zone entirely.

At first, however, the ECB reacted with relief on Friday when the German ruling was announced. It is what they had hoped for, said many within the Frankfurt-based bank. The European court is seen as being much more conciliatory than the German court and most believe that a complete cancellation of the bond-buy program (known officially as "Outright Monetary Transactions" or OMT) is unlikely. "The constitutional court is apparently unable to deal with the complexities of the issue and is now seeking to push responsibility onto the European Court of Justice," says Michael Hüther from the Cologne Institute for Economic Research.

But the relief might be premature. Even if the ECB wins the battle in the Luxembourg courtroom, it remains to be seen if the German court would be satisfied. A thorough reading of the decision reveals that, after spending months looking into the OMT program, a majority of the German justices have come to the conclusion for the first time that Draghi's bond purchases are unconstitutional. Only massive changes could make it acceptable.

4. Death by finance
Dani Rodrik, a Princeton professor, has a searing review of why emerging markets are suffering. He says emerging-market hype is just that. Economic miracles rarely occur, and for good reason. He also says financial globalisation has been greatly oversold, floating exchange rates are flawed shock adsorbers, and that faith in global economic-policy coordination is misplaced.

The deeper problem lies with the excessive financialization of the global economy that has occurred since the 1990’s. The policy dilemmas that have resulted – rising inequality, greater volatility, reduced room to manage the real economy – will continue to preoccupy policymakers in the decades ahead.

5. Go longer
Five years ago was 2009 - and to me that seems like yesterday. But in the language of investment decisions, that is the 'long term'. But if you think about it, 'long term' investing is trying to get the advantage of 'normal' returns, unobstructed by short term volatility and noise. It's clear however the returns and perspectives of 2009 and since are rubbish as a benchmark.

The long term you need to look at is probably much longer than five years. It is also important for KiwiSaver perspectives.

That's the view also of this NY Times piece.

These five-year numbers often color the thinking of not just ordinary investors but sophisticated strategists as well. Open a year-end report ... and you may now see the 2013 numbers for your own investments and for comparable benchmarks. Along with more recent returns, those 2013 five-year returns are appearing on financial websites, and in mutual fund reports and brokerage letters. And they are used by consultants for pension funds and other institutional investors in formulating asset-allocation and risk-management strategies.

Yet these five-year perspectives are very changeable. At the end of 2012, stocks’ five-year record was dismal. Now, it looks fabulous. What’s remarkable is that three of the years in each of those five-year records are exactly the same.

“This is an anomaly in market returns that’s occurred because of the calendar, and the extreme moves in the market that have taken place since the financial crisis, and it can be very misleading if you don’t look at it carefully,” said David Kelley, chief global strategist at J.P. Morgan Funds.

6. A mega sovereign writeoff
Edward Hadas has a big idea - born of the need to clear away the concrete shoes many countries have with their Government debt levels. He wants an international agreement for action whereby 'everyone' acts to rid themselves of the burden. And he says it could be done, even given the difficulties. An idea worth a read.

Massive debt forgiveness would solve the problem quickly and safely – if they are done right. There are three plausible ways to get rid of large quantities of unwanted bonds.

The first is through a large writedown. Basically, governments would re-issue all their debt with half the face value. For this “Reissue Day” approach to work, careful preparations and international agreement are required. Disaster can be avoided, although it would be tricky. A powerful propaganda campaign is a prerequisite, as is a clear plan to recapitalise banks, in part with new government funds. And all countries must agree to recognise losses on their holdings of foreign government sooner rather than later.

Alternatively, instead of writing down debts, governments could inflate up wages and prices. For example, a mandatory one-time doubling of all wages would quickly almost double nominal GDP, mechanically almost halving the economic weight of the government debt burden. The “Rescale Payday” would be technically and legally complex, a bit like dividing one currency into two. Forethought and flexibility would be mandatory.

Finally, governments could print debts away. As borrowings mature, they would be redeemed with newly created money. The monetisation would be followed quickly by new taxes which would reduce the expanded money supply to non-inflationary levels. The reclaimed funds would then be destroyed. The round trip sounds complicated, but the separation of bond redemption from tax recuperation would help governments arrange the details of the “Less for More Exchange” to allocate losses as fairly as possible.

I doubt that any of these techniques will be tried out, for both good and bad reasons. On the good side, there is the ethical concern about breaking financial contracts, the risk of social tension after a sudden redesign of a key part of the monetary system and the innumerable diabolical details. On the bad side are mainstream economists’ lack of intellectual courage and the inability of politicians to organise something as daring as the monetary equivalent of post-war reconstruction.

7. A culture of subsidy
Corporate welfare doesn’t boost employment. But politicians love giving money to companies to create jobs. The benefits are fleeting, at best, according to Tamsin McMahon in Canada's MacLeans magazine. They point to many Canadian examples, and the best ones are from the movie business. But there are others as well. Here is one:

Pixar Animation Studios made no secret of why it chose Vancouver for its first international production office. Sure, the location was beautiful and the city boasted a bounty of educated and experienced workers. But it was the B.C. government’s aggressive new tax break for the digital film and animation industry that general manager Amir Nasrabadi said had made the city “a very cost-effective place to do business.”

At the 2010 press conference announcing the move, then-premier Gordon Campbell promised that the government’s plan to forgive nearly half the taxes on Pixar’s labour costs would be money well spent. He said it was the start of a partnership between government and industry that would last, “as Bud Lightyear would say, to infinity and beyond.”

Unfortunately for B.C., infinity lasted just three years. Last fall, Pixar’s parent company, Walt Disney Co., announced that, despite posting a US$1.6-billion profit that quarter, it was shutting down its Vancouver office, laying off 100 workers and shifting production back to its California headquarters in order to “refocus our efforts and resources under one roof.”

8. A dictator's disruption
Amazon surprised the retail delivery world by suggesting drones could be used for its deliveries. People guffawed at first. But not for long. Others have taken up the challenge. And it looks like Dubai will be launching a service well before the Amazon one gets off the ground (so to speak). Here's more at Wired:

Officials in Dubai say the city is experimenting with drones to deliver government documents to citizens. Unveiled this week, the program is the first phase of what officials hope will lead to widespread government use of unmanned aircraft across the United Arab Emirates by next year.

“What these things are best suited for is delivery of small, light value things that are time sensitive, like medicines, identification documents, vital papers and things of that nature,” said Noah Raford, an adviser to UAE Prime Minister Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid, according to The National. The drones would supposedly use retina scans and fingerprints to identify intended recipients.

Either way, the UAE’s effort doesn’t look great for Amazon. If it works, Amazon will have lost the race. If it doesn’t work, Amazon will be under more pressure to say why its drones will work out better. If they ever get off the ground.

9. The best and worst
Here a fun set of lists - if you have some spare time ... Bloomberg has done a wide ranging series on the Best & Worst economic stats comparing countries.

Actually, we are near the top of some 'good' stats, and near the bottom of some problematic ones. But we also have some of the heaviest men and women it seems. Not sure if that is good or not. Watching the Auckland 9's the mens weight may have been an advantage yesterday.

10. Today's quotes
Bentley’s second Law of Economics: "The only thing more dangerous than an economist is an amateur economist."

Berta’s Fundamental Law of Economic Rents: “The only thing more dangerous than an amateur economist is a professional economist."

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment.

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.

72 Comments

The Economist gets with the program.
I hope someone will think of the children.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21596553-benefits-shale-oil…

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This should be no11....or actually number 1

http://energypolicy.columbia.edu/events-calendar/global-oil-market-fore…

It should all be watched but from 45min on for 2 or 4 mins is the bomb shell....or maybe nuke.

All the oil majors that profile thinks are so great have a marginal cost of $120~130 a barrel with todays price as, $105.

So much of the oil left will probably never get extracted, indeed an asymetrical hubbert's curve.

regards

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Bakken b/e $60 and Eagle ford $80 with todays technology. Swing producer, refining bottle necks and all that. Steven, you should try reading the article before commenting. Btw much prefer the innovative oil minors to "big majors".

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I read your article, a) its a vested interest piece, b) those plays are small (in terms of global) and the best ones and we have already discussed the limited increases in shale ooil, peaking inside this decade.

regards

 

 

 

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a) vested? The article calls for freeing up the market not restricting it.

b) "small plays"....! Bakken, Eagle and Permian are four of the ten super producing 1 million b/day fields in the world. The right oil in the right place. What is a your definition of a big play?

Who knows what tomorrows technology will bring. No one saw this coming yet you continue to be so confident about your perceived bleak future. As discussed... proven reserves have gone from 640 billion barrels in 1980 to 1.6 trillion today. Fracking hasn't even started in the rest of the world yet. Though Mexico seems to be making the right calls.

 

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Assuming Fracking is the miracle you claim and ignoring the EROEI issues which you obviously don't understand.  It still dosn't matter, we can't burn more than 25% of the fossil fuels in the ground without exceeding the 450ppm of carbon dioxide that is a conservative estimate of when climate change will likely hit feedback forcings that will lead to runnaway global warming. 

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We seem to keep going over this. US shale oil has a projected peak in the 2016~2019 time frame, so we'll get some millions of barrels per day for a few years....then declines.

The biggest conventional fields are,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_fields

Also it lists their output.  The point is these conventional fields are large and high high sustained outputs, unlike the shal plays.

The 1 trillion hvy oil, tight and tar sands have been known about for 50+ years they were never listed as economical to recover as oil until 2000 ish as was around $20 a barrel til then.  The tar sands etc cost around $90~99 per barrel when comparing like with like....ie with WTI, so really its not looking like they will be expanded much.

On top of that these US tight fields have most of the rigs concentrated in parts of the fields as these have proven to be the "economical areas" so once these are depleted the output is going  to drop.

Sure we might see fracking in some areas of the world, but given the high costs, not very likely its a game changer. 

regards

 

 

 

 

 

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Mexico expects to see about $10 billion more a year in revenues from the privatization of its oil industry.

http://m.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2014/02/07/mexico-to-see-10b-per-…

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"A world in which the leading petrostate is a liberal democracy has much to recommend it. But perhaps the biggest potential benefit of America’s energy boom is its example. Shale oil and gas deposits are common in many countries. In some they may be inaccessible, either because of geology or because of environmental fears: but in most they go unexploited because governments have not followed America’s example in granting mineral rights to individual landowners, so that the communities most disrupted by fracking are also enriched by it."

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21596521-energy-boom-good-america…

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It needs registration, have to pass.

Looking at the USA, even it only has plays that gain it maybe 7 years of extra oil.

Good for teh USA, however they dont seem to be taking that breather given them and doing anything about the pending problem.

regards

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Shale production, and proven reserve increases, show they are doing something about the problem. Innovating rather than sitting on their hands or wasting cash on offshore wind farms and other boon doggles.

Registration is free... I don't mind broadening your world view.

"The main beneficiaries of the complicated export-permit regime are American petrochemical firms, which love cheap gas and lobby for it. Mr Obama should ignore them. Gas exports could generate tankerloads of cash. To the extent that they displace coal, they would be good for the environment."

"By 2020 it should have overtaken Saudi Arabia as the largest pumper of oil, the more valuable fuel. By then the “fracking” revolution—a clever way of extracting oil and gas from shale deposits—should have added 2-4% to American GDP and created twice as many jobs than carmaking provides today."

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Shale Gas is not oil.  No, the problem of peak oil has not gone away, the US has gained itself a few years but at huge expense and the private oil companies are not continuing to invest the huge amounts they have been.  That means a fall off in crude oil output is in the making...

Gas exports also need facilities and ships, neither are cheap....but Im all for the  US starting to export their gas.

 

regards

 

 

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I realise that shale gas is not shale oil... nice slight. The quote related to the permitting issues with both oil and gas. "Peak oil has not gone away" but proven oil reserves have gone from  640 to 1500 billion and US natural gas exports are expected to go 2 tcf now to 8 tcf in 2040.

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If you want to take it as that, thats up to you it wasnt meant that way.  However considering how you cherry pick etc then making such points crystal clear is essential to any discusions we have. Peak gas ahsnt gone away either btw, its just maybe pushed out to 2040 and beyond.

Conventional oil at 640billion (we'll use your number) has not changed, what has changed is that hvy oil and shale oil have now been lumped in as its "technically possible" to extract.  

The problem comes back to EROEI, water availability, economics and ppls ability or wish to pay (probably others as well eg. polution).  So in reality that 640billion is probably over the top as that takes into no account ppls ability to pay let alone 1.5trillion.

On top of that there is the output per day or peak oil redux, so sure the non-conventioanl oil is maybe technical recoverable but the rate of recovery will not match the decline in crude oil output let alone demand.

regards

 

 

 

 

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Profile, obviously you're a paid hack, but that's foolish nonsense, even for one of those.

 

I'll explain it as if to a five-year-old.

 

What we do is go for the best stuff first, whether it be the chocck bikkies in an assortment, or good oil under pressure.  This means that every 'next' source, has to be 'worse' than the last.

  So we are down to fracturing rock, drilling ever-deeper under the ocean, looking to convert other fossil fuels to oil, and so on. All backward steps.

 

The Eagle Ford and the Bakken are the best sites for fracking, and they take between them half the non-FSU, non-China rigs, just to replace the steep decline associated with fracking. Just to stay still, in other words.

 

Sure, USA could overtake SA as an exporter - given that SA is projected to use all it's production internally in 16 years time - even I could overtake zero. When hacks need to put up such obvious tripe, you have to ask why, and who do they think they're fooling?

 

 Too obvious. Try being subtle, maybe.

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PDK, saving the planet by abusing each person in it.

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Are mistruth, lies and deceit not abuse? How about stupidity or cognition deficitis being insulting? I have not once seen profile acknowlege EROEI, which really undermines all that he says. The quantity of oil that comes out of the ground is irrelevant and to continuously report only that statistic is dishonest. It isn't the barrels or reserves that count, it is the USEABLE barrels that are paramount.

 

What I have notices about you Ralph is a very similar approach to Misdemeanour. You guys really like the sound of your own voices and don't let the fact that you don't really know anything be an obstacle to voicing it..

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It wouldn't be so ironic except it was in PDK's own words he claimed to only use facts and speak only scientific truth.

 

And to answer your first question; whilst mistruth could be construed as a *form* of abuse there two problems in your position;

1.  Mistruth is not a personal abuse targeted to playing the man and/or his parents, it can consist in honest mistake and probably other causes.

2.  Your unspoken assumption is PDK states truth.  I would suggest to you he does not state truth exlusively, but also makes mistakes, doesn't listen (choice or skill shortfall) and mostly states opinions rooted in fixed assumptions.  If you accept these assumpitions then everything that follows is certainly gospel; or more accurately a sort of diatribe that communists used over a 100 years ago.

 

EROEI is about the only useful thing steven and PDK use and just because profile doesn't use that directly doesn't mean;

(a)  he does not acknowledge it

(b)  everything else he says is rubbish

This mistake is made by the closed minded; the nature of which is  to cease listening to *any* rational outside their pre-ordained thinking.  It is the soil of the arrogant in which hubris is born.

 

As for stupidity, if cognition deficits were insults teachers would be the most insulted people on the planet.  Besides, when the best you can muster is to call others stupid you sound about eight years old.

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Actually I know quite a lot about economics and public administration and I've occasionally tried to explain the relevance of both to concerns about the distribution of scarce resources.  It's been a pretty pointless exercise, but I think any fair observer would agree that I've been on the receiving end of quite a lot more personal abuse than I've dealt out.  

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It is quite amazing how much he purports to know about you.  Although I take comfort in the observation that the general tone of some posters is egalitarian in nature, that is to say the abuse is equally directed at anyone who has an independent thought.

 

And using his own argument -- apparently you may now personally abuse him, because somehow the telling of a mistruth is moral justification for poor argument and bad manners.

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She is a smidge ahead of you, in my book.    :)

 

I think there's a lot - a serious lot - of ingrained training there, but an ability (and it's rare) to stay with the questioning, where many run away. Someone else noted her - I assume it's a her - tendency to bite into small items, often this is done to discredit the whole, and commonly is driven by denial.

Have you added to the discussion Ralph? Or have I missed it?

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Lucky I don't take stock of my worth from such a stingy book as yours.

 

How to add to the debate?  Let's see..

1.  You're a hack?,

2.  You're 5 years old?,

3.  You're foolish?,

4.  You speak nonsense..?

And that's just from this thread, leaving out the discussion adding issues of parental history, mental capabilities and putting words into peoples mouths.

 

You say you stand for truth and scientific fact - in which case - there is no need to defend it with personal attacks.

 

If you think some one's point is wrong why not just point out how in a rational manner.

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PDK - Thanks for the condescension. Well at least you are not calling me a moron or posting out of date charts so things are looking up. The paid hack meme is a bit tired though isn’t it? Though first rule of the play book if you can’t come up with a good argument is to try and discredit your opponent.

A biscuit analogy…  Johnny has just figured out how to get how to get more biscuits out of Mummy. Mummy told him there were only 640 biscuits left but he has now put his mind to it and discovered 1500 biscuits, including 345 biscuits of a kind that weren’t available even two years ago. Imagine what Johnny will think of next.

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Except johny finds the cost of them is higher than his pocket money...so has to go without anyway.

hvy oil has not been discovered btw, its been there all along, just now the Govn you seem to detest have done a slight of hand but accept at face value becasue it suits your politics.

regards

 

 

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Profile, you're fighting a losing battle, a luddite malthusian will never except that new technologies and innovation can occur.  They see backwards as the only way forwards. 

 

Whilst you are both arguing about the amount of oil left at least you both acknowledge that it will at one stage run out.  I hope that you'll acknowledge that a move to green, renewable technologies is the way forward....

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Happy123 - wrong.

 

It's not to do with 'running out'. As has been mentioned many, many times here. It's to do with the rate of supply, which peaks. Long before 'running out'.

 

Which name-calling doesn't change, one iota.

 

sigh.

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and yet you cant justify why you believe that (or what) new technologies will be there. Despite engineers like myself telling you it wont happen on the scale and in time...if its even possible or exists you continue to pray it will be.

You are correct on one thing, profile doesnt seem to understand there is a difference with peak oil and its supply rate and none left at all.

Where you are the same as him is that you are praying that the "green tech" will allow you to carry on living as you do now. This isnt the case and its an economic argument you deny.

regards

 

 

 

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No, that's not an economic argument.

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No, I think he's a die hard libertatian / free marketeer actually. For a wage  I think he said he makes toilet paper.

regards

 

 

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Steven could you please explain what you mean by peak oil in laymans

terms it would help people that join in to discussions to better understand

many anti oil and drilling people attack the oil industry with little real understanding of the facts about oil . take North Dakota in the USA in december they had a drop of oil production due to bad weather etc-----but they still produced over 900,000 barrels of oil a day. they have over two hundred years of oil there.. my question is why are people using this term peak oil when it appears that there is a massive amount of oil still un discoverd.

Warren buffet has just commited 5 billion dollars on his railroad to improve the delivery of oil from the north west..

BAZ

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

or maximum production of conventioanl crude oil per day, at about the 1/2 way mark which we are.

PS Im not anti-oil, as such, so lets leave that, politics  and AGW etc out of the arguement.

My interest in peak oil is purely economic and societal. What ASPO etc is saying is that we are at peak oil give or take 5 years and thats reflected in the price, both cost and instability of.

North dakota isnt conventional crude oil, its shale oil.  Even the most "brave" forecasters dont see shale oil peaking later than 2020 in the USA and the world peaking before 2018 (or has) then whether Ndakota is up or down a bit makes no odds its too small.

So really what your comments suggest to me is you need to consider the scale of the problem or the bigger picture and not just one field.

Un-discovered oil, well no, discoveries peaked in the 1960s and mathematically the total amount of crude oil can be roughly calculated at 2.4trillion barells of which we have used about half.

regards

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Baz, or an alternative theory matched by production data.

"THE theory of peak oil, the idea that global crude production may be at or near its limit, is based on the work of M. King Hubbert, a geologist working for Shell in the 1950s. His  prediction that oil output in the lower 48 states of America would peak by around 1970 has been adopted and expanded by hydrocarbon doomsayers, who reckon that global production has peaked and the world is running out of oil. But Mr Hubbert’s curve, which neatly fitted American oil production and rightly predicted a peak in 1970, may need to be redrawn according to analysis by BP, a British oil company. The technology that has unlocked huge volumes of gas from American shale beds can also been used to extract oil.  As drilling for oil from shale intensifies America looks set for another peak in the next couple of decades. Mr Hubbert’s curve and the peak-oil brigade look out of date."

Nice chart too.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/03/focus-0

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and BP is a vested interest, it has no other viable business model except selling oil.

Peak oil wont be withdrawn as its sound math and geology, simple.

Sure fracking can get oil, but a peak 4 ~6 years off is no real respite for the world...just a bit of time and at huge expense that cannot be sustained.

So here you go cherry picking and misleading yet again....

regards

 

 

 

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So BP is a vested interest beacause it sells oil. What did that make Hubbert who worked for Shell?

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Steven also your figures on cost to extract are incorrect...some oil drillers can drop to approx $80 per barrel and still make money

PowerDown ,,please stop abusive replies to profile comments

i have just logged on for first time in over a year and you are still talking down to people

grow up

BAZ

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Um, "$80"  its the marginal cost, so sure some ppl can produce at $80 and some maybe even at $30, the problem is new oil is looking at $120+ so the oil majors are not drilling it. 

The point of the above links was to highlight that Hubbert's curve is looking asymetrical on several fronts...a) Internal consumption is growing in osme cases by 10% pr annum, hence there is less to sell on the open market b) the price of the oil is such that we cant afford it economically, so it will never be drilled or at least not ina  timely manner.

regards

 

 

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This post got disappeared earlier somehow.

 "Shale oil resources under exploitation have costs typically lower than Canadian oil sands or Brazilian ultra deep water crude, both of which are estimated to have average production costs of about $70/bbl. Shale oil exploitation in North America becomes broadly economical at oil prices somewhat below $50/bbl. Production outside the US has remained insignificant so far."

"Shale oil resources in the US become economically exploitable at oil prices between $45 and $70/bbl. This is somewhat less than the price level required by Canadian oil sands and substantially below the 2011-13 prices for crude oil.

The Canadian Energy Research Institute claims that oil sands production costs require breakeven oil prices in the range $45 to $90/boe. Liquids from shale gas are much cheaper to produce, ranging from around $10 to $40/boe.

"With shale gas costs in a range of $3-7/MMBTU, one might reasonably have expected shale output to decline when prices fell from $6-8 to $4 or less from 2009 onwards.
Indeed, the number of drilling rigs devoted to shale gas fell from about 1,500 in 2008 to less than 900 in 2011 as rigs were shifted to shale oil. Astonishingly, however, this had no apparent impact on gas production growth. Dramatically increasing efficiency in drilling operations provides a plausible explanation to this observation.
http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/volume-111/issue-12/exploration-develo...

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Baz, Profile has been repeatedly challenged on his untenable position but keeps coming back for more. He can obviously handle what you call abuse or he wouldn't keep doing it.

 

What I suggest you do is some investigation into psychology of behaviour, or personalities. Here is a free test http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp that will get you started. The 16 types are is a reasonable way correlated to the four temperments. What you have got in Steven and PDK are a couple of rationals, that is guys better than the majority of the population as logical analysis. Then you have Profile, and other paid hacks, that clearly are not.  Perhaps the Profile sort of personality might be better described as the sales type. So where are you going to put your trust and faith? Do you want a rational evaluation of oil? Or do you want the sales type, or politician type, to tickle your ears and tell you what you want to hear?

 

If you haven't watched "The Most Important Video You Will Ever See" then you will be enriched by the experience. Quite frankly not one has any place commenting on an economic blog until they have watched this video and understood the principle. You will have to forgive PDK in this respect because most have had the opportunity.

 

Now you really have to look past "production" figures. Quite franky a person would have to be an embicile to keep relying on that figure. Here is a good article that explains the peak EROI problem (that Profile keeps ignoring) http://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/

 

Get throught that lot okay and I will give you the most important leading indicator of the problem humanity faces.

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You are abusive Scarfie.  And so clearly out of factual argument.

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There are several links in scarfies piece that lay out the facts.  Profile on the other hand at best presents "facts" out of context to support his political beliefs and/or quotes vested interests who are attempting to paint the best light they can because they need the money. 

So sure the cost of canadain tar sands varies from $50 to $90, but the $90 is what the refiners want and its the cheap $50 stuff that has been put through an "upgrading process" to make it worth $90~99.  To do that they blend it with chemicals and light sweet crude which has to be shipped in.  Then it has to be transported out again to point of use which works out at $18 a barrel or so, making it $108, hardly profitable, hence why Texas shale oil is eating its dinner, for now.

This should be telling you we have a looming energy problem.

Shale oil is around $50 (maybe) but thats only for 2 or 3 plays, this is where the drilling is being concentrated as no where else is at this price.

This should be telling you we have a looming energy problem.

Natural gas, sure the US is awash with it, (and will be for a decade or more it seems) but when you look at transporting it, converting that to a liquid fuel or using it as a fuel it only makes sense while its dirt cheap....and that price is showing signs of rising.

This should be telling you we have a looming energy problem.

Then we have many economists who live on the demand side and have assumed that no matter what we the consumer/user will pay the price.  That has proved incorect, as we can see the developed countries demand has flattened or declined and thats due to price / impact of price on our economy.  

This should be telling you we have a looming energy problem.

How many facts due you want?

infinite?

Because frankly the denial I see says just that.  

Now anyone who can take these facts, take them into account and plan their financial future is far more likely to end up not as poor as those who live in the la la land of growth for ever lets buy more houses.

Lots of ifs (timing), some maybe's (technology) but lots of absolute no doubts. 

Enjoy your time in TAB.

regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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KH - maybe we need to define 'abusive', and have a wee think about relative weightings.

 

I suggest that offshoring our pollution (whiteware made in China/Thailand/Bangladesh/Mexico, for example) and taking advantage of slave-level wages and conditions conveniekntly somewhere else is 'abusive'.

I suggest that using fossil fuels to build an impossibly overshot global population, an impossible-to-maintain collection of infrastructure (comprising much in the way of once-off resources and opportunity) and an increasingly-impossible to mitigate mass of pollution - is abusive to future generations.

 

If someone - and I'm with Scarfie here - thinks that those are the greater abuse?

 

Factual argument? No, Profile is the deficient one, and you can work that out from first principles. The Gaussian curve (Hubbert Curve - think roughly 'Bell-Curve") represents the total resource. The area contained under the bell-curve, is the total resource. Obviously, if you try and continue the upward trend on the left-hand-side, you are taking 'area' from somewhere else. Logically, that will be from the right-hand tail-off. This makes for a steeper drop-off at the end, but to claim that the process discredits the FACT that the area is finite, is bullshit.

 

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-17/peak-is-dead-and-the-future-of-oil-supply

"But we don’t even know what the shape of the peak is going to be—whether a sharp peak or a long, undulating plateau.  I suspect it’s going to be the latter. 
 
The charge that—because all previous estimates have been wrong, therefore all future estimates are going to be wrong as well—is just ludicrous and completely unscientific.  I can’t be bothered to listen to that anymore". 

 

I suspect - politely - your baulk-point has to do with inner denial. I have heard a professor comment that another 'shouldn't be so negative' about Peak Oil. I came away from that conversation (he's a friend) muttering 'denial'. Even in intelligent circles, there's a lot of it about. It's what the Profile spinner types feed on - just as advertising feeds on fears.

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Scarfie was abusive PDK.  As well as sneering.   Doesn't make him wrong on his argument on the actual topic, but doesn't make him right either.   Certainly however it reduces any interest in reading his argument.  You should think on that one for yourself.

You have no idea on my baulk point regarding climate/whiteware/fossil.  Such thought insertion by you does not assist your credibility. 

Now for something interesting.  What is your recommendation about the best angle from vertical for a fixed position PV setup.   For us here at the 45th parallel.  I will have a very suitable roof soon but its has a 30 degree slope (from the horizontal)   I know there is waste in that.  Perhaps too much ?

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KH the seasonal variation for sun angle is 47°.  Subtract your lattitude from 90 and that is your midpoint, or equinox angle. There are different alculations about to determine the optimim annual capture but the question becomes more about when do you want it? Your roof angle will be overweighted to the summer and a high 30's angle would give you a better result IMO.

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It depends.

 

Are you saying '45th' as in Oamaru? Or generically NZ?

 

But there are other things in play. First, you need power more in winter, typically. That's in the shorter days with lower sun (we get 22degrees mid-day here mid-winter). So it may make sense for you, to angle steeper and optimise for winter. (It doesn't so much for us - we have micro-hydro which thrives on winter water).

 

Then you may be coastal - in which case you probably have more afternoon cloud than morning. That would suggest you bias to face more East. In our case, we're coastal, but West of a steep hill. Gives us late sunrise, so we bias the panels (and the house) to the West.

 

Our original panel

http://www.odt.co.nz/files/story/2009/01/green_print_2_off_the_grid_don_t_pub_2111251844.jpg

 

was both tiltable up/down (seasonally) and rotated sideways. That one on the pole powered the entire house (only washing-machine and vac-cleaner were generator-driven) for five years.

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Thank you Scarfie and PDK for the gentlemanly info.

I had been think, thinking about the angles, math and numbers.  But as you point out PDK there are other things eg.  Winter and living style.  Have to cogitate.

and the photo PDK.  What strikes me is not the pv but the passive solar design for heat into the house.  Always the first and best way to go, IMHO.   

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KH another stat has occured to me today and that is indirect solar radiation being quite a significant percentage, either 40 or 60%. So the angle of  PV panel is important, but you are only trying to optimise the direct portion of sunlight. On that basis the difference for your roof is probably +/- 10%, perhaps even less. On that basis it may be more economical to purchase an extra panel or two, but I haven't crunched those sort of numbers. PDK would have a better idea. Here is a useful link if quickly found with stars for Portland Oregon listed at 45°N.

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PDK Factual argument - well the EIA stats are publicly available. I didn't make them up.

Going back to you biscuit analogy I forgot to add how many biscuits Johnny was eating.

His mum told him there were 640 left in 1980, he ate ~26 a year so he should had completely run out but 2005. But it turns out he still has 1600 to go. I guess techonolgy will do that. Consistently wrong on proven oil reserves for 150 years, anyone would think it was accountant calculating proven reserves.

Have a look at the Hubbert curve in the Economist link above, it's been blown out in the most pillaged fields on the planet. 

And to quote the IEA "there are ample physical oil and liquid fuel resources for the foreseeable future". I guess you know something they don't. Got any more analogies for me?

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Scarfie, you nailed it. Keep posting.

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Scarfie

I believe you meant to say:

imbecile:

fool, idiot, cretan, dolt, moron, halfwit, simpleton

 

But you spelt the word incorrectly.

yes?

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You and your cronies seem to have that expression well covered SK?

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What have you got against people from Crete?

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I thought this was a good story, but then I'm not an Australian. What Newscorp did to Australia's finances.

http://www.afr.com/Page/Uuid/40b2fa2e-9546-11e3-ba72-5443b98a6665

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And in the middle of their propaganda campaign they changed the sub heading on the Sydney Morning Herald web site to say "Independent. Always".

Straight out of the East German manuals.

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Profile has his uses - it will be enjoyable to torment him/her as the price of oil continues to drift up. Brent good and strong just under $110 and WTI trading strongly above $100, the latter in particular having risen markedly when the shale oil narrative was that all that US oil was going to send prices down. Well surprise, surprise it aint working out that way. Come to think of it the owner of this website should be tormented for the same reason, he has blown the shale oil trumpet pretty strongly.

Sure when the next recession comes along oil will fall. But in the meantime the price is sending only one signal.

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Yeah and oil futures are $80 so get out there and make some money! What are you doing here?! Haven't you heard it slow to turn an oil tanker around? Especially when government permitting is involved. You should try reading some of those links above.

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LOL, always another excuse as to why the price of oil isn't falling. This time something especially bizarre - its all due to government permitting! I am going to enjoy taunting you Profile.

 

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Have you bought any futures yet?

"U.S. oil production has increased by 3 million barrels per day (mmbd) since its low point of approximately 5 mmbd in 2008. Projections have future production continuing to increase through 2019, perhaps to as much as 9.6 mmbd according to EIA estimates. The increase to date is equal to about 3% of total world consumption, which is enough to have a significant impact on world oil prices by preserving the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries' (OPEC) spare capacity."

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If it gets to 2019, that seems to be the outer edge...and at great cost, then a drop off...

Some projections btw....

3% more ignores the drops in mature fields and thats 3% over 5 years, or roughly 0.6% extra per year again.  

The telling comment in the piece is OPECs spare is 3%, thats an interesting number and probably padded, but still a bit tight.  then there is growth at a projected 1.5 to 2mbpd....per year.  Take that in perspective of maybe another 3mbpd from shale in 4 years time.

 

regards

 

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Oooooo wow! That would be an annual average increase of 600,000 bpd in US production in those 5/6 years. Mighty impressive.

One slight problem. The EIA and most other organizations recognise a global depletion rate of existing oil fields of 5-6% per annum. On a global total oil production figure over that period of say 85mbpd, that means 4.3mbpd of global oil production PER YEAR disappeared, which has to be replaced from somewhere just to keep production stable. Your average increase of 600,000bpd of US production covers a mere 14% of the oil production that was lost due to depletion of existing fields EVERY YEAR. And that, dear chum, is why the oil price isn''t going down - in fact it is going up.

Worse, the tight oil plays like the Bakken, with initial well decline rates of 20% plus per year will soon roll over (2015?) so the US shale oil 'bonanza' is going to be painfully short lived.

Go on chuck me another - I do so enjoy hitting amateurs out of the park.

 

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Why is the IEA saying there is ample oil liquid fuel resources for the forseeable future? What do you see that they don't? Why are oil futures $80? Is $80 up or down from $110?

Those global oil depletion rates... 640 proven reserves in 1980, 850 depletion since then and now we stand at 1600 reserves. That is some depletion. Run for the hills.

Funny you mention the Bakken. Proven reserves 150 million in 1995, now 7.5 billion. What a difference a decade makes.

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Here is a clue for you. Go and check what the WTI futures market was saying the price now in February 2014 was going to be 24 months ago. Guess what - it wasnt predicting $100 plus now was it?

As for reserves - dont make me laugh. Production rates and 'reserves' are two entirely different things, the first is reality and the second is hypothesis. UK North Sea still supposidly has 15-24 billion barrels of oil left but unfortunately in the real world that hasnt stopped UK oil production declining from 2.8mbpd to less than 1mbpd in a little over 10 years.

If reserves supposidly mean something and if they have supposidly doubled according to you than why the hell are we paying 400% more for a barrel of oil than we were a little over 10 years ago? Oh right, its a first law of economics, isnt it, the more of something you have in reserve, the more it should cost, right?

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Oh so Bakken isn't such a good example for you any more? I guess if it is production that is important to you now, rather than depletion, Bakken has gone from less than 50 million annual  in 2007 to 300 million today. So I can see why you would want to change focus to the North Sea. I read they had record investment there last year so we shall see.

As for the futures more people think the price is going to down than up so go make some money off them.

 

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The Bakken is interesting but limited, take a look at the number of wells and rigs in a limited area of it and the other fields. On top of that these plays are due to peak and decline within 5 years and maybe within 3.  In fact looking at oil or gas fracked wells are pretty much finished inside 4 years due to decline rates so have to be replaced, they are running to keep still as it were and that is going to tell within a few years.  

So what has that bought the US?  a temp blip that hasnt declined petrol prices or world oil prices for that matter.  What it is is a window of opportunity being thrown away.

North sea, might well show a bit of recovery after the huge investment, in fact world wide something like 2.4trillion has been thrown at finding and drilling for oil and the best that can be done is halt the crude output decline. The interesting thing is that the oil companies are waking up to the in-ability of ppl/economies to pay so are canning projects....Sheel had to borrow money to pay a dividend

Read into that desperate...

regards

 

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Is your case then that

 

(a)  our society cannot do without oil

(b)  oil is becoming increasingly rare and difficult and expensive to extract 

(c)  therefore the oil price is going to go down?

 

 

 

 

 

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As I keep saying 640 is conventioanl crude the rest is hvy added in now, and the orice to recover that is in the $100 range, ignoring EROEI.

IEA says this? then they are lying frankly...or incompetant.

got a URL?

regards

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The 4.3mbpd depletion also add in 1.5~2mbpd extra demand per year.  

So there is a claim that OPEC has a 3% reserve, yet new demand alone would get close to absorbing 1/2 this and more.

Running to keep still comes to mind...

Oh and Mexico pretty much stops exporting oil in a few years due to declines and internal demand, Indonesia has stopped.

regards

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Actually I dont know how high the oil price can go before we get another GFC. Last time it was $148USD or about 6% of US GDP. Now the US economy is weaker and the easy/descretional  oil use has been driven out.  So I'd wonder on much above $120USD being a trigger.

Becareful what you wish for as they say.

Yes the writers here often trumpet spot rises, no trends though.  Aslo many financial ppl seem to be demand side as opposed to supply side, ie think there is no limit to prices ppl will pay, I think the bast 6 years has proved that wrong, a few still have to catch up on that though.

regards

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The Bakken and Eagle Ford, between them, use half the non-FSU, non China oil rigs on the planet. Those rigs are drilling flat-out in the best fracking sites there are, just to offset the steep decline-rates we see with fracking.

 

That little blip - not enough to get the USA back to it's 1970 Peak, which Profile carefully avoids mentioning.

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?country=us&graph=production

 

Nor ever will be. And the IEA 'projections'?

 

http://seekingalpha.com/article/236162-iea-forecast-economy-depends-on-yet-to-be-found-oil

 

Which is why the industry needs spinners like Profile. There's nothing like a graph or two to show the truth, eh?

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As I keep pointing out PDK (even Steven disagrees with me), beware the MBTI *ST* mind. They are great at statistics, but poor at analysing them. ie: they can't see the big picture. Typically the average General (ENTJ) uses them as canon fodder as they are rein supreme at being task focussed (like being a paid hack).

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Profile its good that you stand up to the deniers

you are correct about the USA oil boom , in fact its bigger than the officals can admit

or keep pace with, Eagle Ford they just drill and strike oil no dry wells there.

I was in Oklahoma last year the oil industry is massive ,the oil has been pumped there for over 50 years ..

the bakken is just epic , now they are going to harness more natural gas rather than flare most of it off.. This is geo political a game changer.

PDK and the others are psudo Intellectuals , who revert to name calling and put downs

if you question their data , source etc...totally in denial

Baz

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Baz - he hasn't answered since I linked to that graph.

 

Which shows at least enough intelligence to know when to fold 'em.

 

 

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PDK - sorry I don't sit on the the blog all day trying to get the last word in... that spot is taken.

Have you read the economist articles posted above? It explains why there are so many rigs in US shale. What are your comments on proven oil reserves going from 640 in 1980 to 1600 in 2013 with 870 in consumption since then?

The EIA projection for 2019 is 9.6 million barrels per day making the US the worlds biggest producer, 4% off the 1970 production peak. Not bad considering Jimmy Carter was telling in in 1977 we would be out of oil in six years. How does that fit with the Hubbert curve? Twin peaks? I wonder what technological advances there will be by 2019.

As for the 2009 Seeking Alfa chart, is it really worth commenting on? Things have changed since 2009.

I guess you would not want to post the current EIA chart. All that gas and the IEA statement that there are "ample physical oil and gas liquid resources for the forseeable future" must be depressing to Malthusians.

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/er/early_production.cfm

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/ieo/liquid_fuels.cfm

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/ieo/nat_gas.cfm

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-w0vV9juGqL0/UORZwGZ2S8I/AAAAAAAANpM/x3IIbzKh4…

"Estimated risked recoverable resources covered in the 2013 report, including the United States, total 345 billion barrels of oil and 7,299 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. The updated natural gas resource estimate is 10 percent higher than the gas resource estimate in the 2011 report. Additionally, even with the expanded geographic coverage in the 2013 report, there are many important shale formations that it does not assess, such as those underlying large oil fields in the Middle East and the Caspian region."

 

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