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Labour has 'clarified' that any land tax that may or may not be recommended by its Tax Working Group, won't be allowed to apply to land under the family home, which also won't be covered by a CGT that may or may not be recommended

Labour has 'clarified' that any land tax that may or may not be recommended by its Tax Working Group, won't be allowed to apply to land under the family home, which also won't be covered by a CGT that may or may not be recommended

By Alex Tarrant

Will there be anything left for Labour's Tax Working Group to recommend by the time it's set up? At the rate we're going, it would seem not. Any sort of income, asset or wealth you can connect the word "family" to is quickly getting ring-fenced (ha!) from the Group's future terms of reference. 

I was quietly chuffed that Jacinda Ardern on Tuesday would not rule out introduction of a land tax that applied to the land underneath the "family home". On Radio NZ's Morning Report, when pushed on differences between Labour's stance (or non-stance?) on CGT vs land tax, this was the ultimate quote: “I am saying that we are not going to affect the family home, and I’ve been consistent on that.”

Read technically, that doesn't include the land. But, as ever, the next day brought a 'clarification':

"My message will be very clear to [the Working Group] - do not bring me any recommendation that includes the family home or the land that a family home sits on," Ardern told Radio NZ, reported on Thursday.

Ardern keeps reiterating that Labour's main desire for setting up the Tax Working Group is to help tackle housing affordability problems and help 'her generation' into their first homes, while at the same time not allowing for existing owner-occupied properties to fall in value. This is despite the earlier line that Labour just wanted to ensure fairness across the tax system.

On Tuesday she said: "I want the experts to have the room to be able to present to me the best options for improving housing affordability, because after nine years, we have a crisis. And I’m not willing to sit back and let that continue.”

Well, I'm sorry, but the Tax Working Group in 2009 felt a land tax would be one of the best ways to help improve housing affordability because it would reduce the value of land. That includes land with houses on that people live in - these massive examples of assets and wealth. (Assets and wealth being what Labour wants the Working Group to look at evening up the taxation of, relative to waged income.)

Yes, I know it's political suicide to go out and say you want house values to fall. Just think about this though: If a land tax is applied to all non-owner-occupied property (ie rental property and uninhabited/unimproved property), then the value of those land holdings should fall, triggering sales. Inevitably, home buyers will target those properties to purchase at lower prices, which should reduce demand for existing 'owner-occupied' property that isn't subject to a land tax, which would cause the value of those properties to fall, which means Labour could not accept such settings.

It is very, very difficult to argue that you will improve housing affordability by altering the tax system while at the same time saying those changes to the tax system should not cause values of existing owner-occupied properties to fall. One way you could attempt this is by saying your tax system changes will focus on the income tax system - by taxing waged income less, that would mean more free cash to go out and buy property. In that case, why does Labour entertain any talk of CGT or land tax at all then?

Labour's been careful to say that the Working Group isn't being set up to look at ways to increase the government's tax take - it's effectively going to be told that recommendations for changing our tax system should be revenue-neutral. Yet Ardern is still not speaking about using potential new taxes to cover for reductions in existing rates (like introducing a land tax to allow for income tax and/or company tax rate reductions). She should start doing this.

At the moment, the best we could hope for given all the exemptions and caveats is for the introduction of a Capital Gains Tax on all capital excluding two-thirds of all residential property (the two-thirds of a trillion dollars worth of owner-occupied housing), which would then cover for reductions in income tax rates (or greater transfers if Labour sticks to its aversion of income tax rate/threshold changes also benefiting higher earners), which would hopefully give first home buyers extra cash for a deposit for what it is currently calling an over-priced asset.

(I'm assuming that taxing "family" inheritances/death duties aren't exactly going to be high up on Labour's tax change agenda.)

If that's the case then just get out there and say it. Or at least say that you will give the working group un-caveated terms of reference. Don't say that you won't allow them to recommend the best scenario. Then you can add your political "family" exemptions afterwards.

This is bordering on the ridiculous. Bill English is loving it. You can see him in the video below having a crack at Labour over land tax on Tuesday. English himself isn't a fan of a land tax (at least publicly - I'm not sure what he thinks privately), his reservation being that it would hit people on fixed incomes, such as the superannuitants living in the retirement home he was visiting that day. The 2009 Working Group acknowledged this, and said there could be ways around this, including allowing these people to hold off until death.

There are also ways to ensure farmers aren't kicked in the mud too much, for instance by applying a value-per-hectare threshold under which the tax isn't paid (ie encouraging efficient use of land).

If you want to read more on this, then Gareth Vaughan this week published an interview with UoA senior economics lecturer Ryan Greenaway-McGrevy on the subject. This Motu working paper by Andrew Coleman and Arthur Grimes contains a bit more detail, and here's our coverage from back in 2009 on that paper, presented during a Tax Working Group session:

Land Tax (from 2009)

  • Economist Arthur Grimes then presented a paper on a Land Tax by himself and Andrew Coleman from Motu saying that a land tax would be more efficient than a property tax which included the value of both the land and buildings.
  • Grimes said the introduction of a land tax would trigger a one-off fall in land values, which would hurt landowners, but improve affordability for first home buyers. "A land tax would be likely to cause home ownership rates to rise slightly, and gross debt to GDP and net foreign assets to GDP ratios to fall due to lower foreign borrowing. "
  • Grimes said the taxable land base in New Zealand, which excludes government and conservation land, was worth NZ$460 billion. A 0.1% land tax rate would raise NZ$460 million, although this would fall to NZ$160 million if agriculture, forestry and owner-occupied land was excluded.
  • Retired people would be hurt most by a land tax as they held proportionally more land and would not benefit as much from other tax changes in any reform package.
  • A land tax would be easy and cheap to impose because it was already set up for local government rates, Grimes said. It would be almost impossible to evade, he said.
  • "Thus a central government land/property tax could be added as an adjunct to the current system with virtually no additional administrative cost. Furthermore, the ability to avoid (or evade) the tax is virtually non-existent since the land/property is valued by an independent agency and the land/property is available as collateral in cases of non-payment of tax."
  • A land tax would capture foreign owners of New Zealand land, Grimes said. "One currently untaxed sector that it would fall on is foreign-domiciled owners of New Zealand property, who otherwise pay no income tax and who pay no GST if they do not purchase goods and services in New Zealand. A shift to a land tax would therefore widen the tax base not just in terms of the base of assets on which tax is raised but also in terms of the number of people (i.e. non-New Zealand residents) who become taxpayers."
  • A 1% land tax would immediately reduce land prices by 17%, while a land tax phased in over 20 years would reduce land prices by 11.5%, he said.
  • A property tax with an exemption for home owners would cause the rental market to collapse, he said.
  • Grimes said a property tax and the resulting fall in property prices would over time reduce New Zealand's foreign debts. "Put simply, high domestic property prices raise the portion of the country's production that is paid annually to foreigners, and a policy that reduces these prices is likely to lead to an increase in net foreign assets and in the fraction of income available for consumption."
  • Residential land makes up 65% of all land values, while agricultural and commercial forestry make up 24% of the land value. A land tax would hit agricultural based households harder than residential households because each rural household owns proportionally more land.
  • The average land value for residential properties is NZ$215,000, meaning a 1% land tax would cost each household NZ$2,150 per year.
  • A 1% land tax would raise NZ$4.6 billion, which is equivalent to 20% of income tax.
  • A land tax would effectively transfer wealth over time from the old to the young. "The retired cohort would be more likely than younger cohorts to incur a wealth loss (in absolute terms) given the higher initial value of their housing assets. They would also likely face an increased overall tax burden if a land/property tax was matched by an income tax reduction, simply because their incomes tend to be low in relative terms. Younger cohorts would face reduced current and future income taxes that, on balance, would generally more than make up for their higher lifetime land tax payments."
  • Grimes suggested some variations on a land tax that would reduce the impact on farmers and lower income people, including a reduced rate on farmland or a per hectare rebate.
  • He also pointed out a rebalancing of the New Zealand economy could boost productivity and per capita living standard.

And here's Bill English on Tuesday talking about land tax:

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346 Comments

"Seriously, the "old dinos" who had their hands on the levers of power at Jacinda's age do really need to move over and stop criticising the younger generation for being younger."

- does this include Helen Clark ? Taxinda's partner is strangely quiet about her. ..

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Yes it does - thing is, career-wise Helen Clark has moved on internationally and grown her experience beyond our boarders, whereas Richard Prebble hasn't.

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And look what both Prebble and Lange did when they first got voted in. Hardly an example of disciplined policy making. It resulted in a few years of speculative growth followed by the hangover recession of the early 90s.

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The time when Left and Right swapped places.

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One of the reasons that you can't vote based on "tribal affiliation" - as GM would refer to it.

Lot's of folks did very well out of the implementation of neoliberal policies of the Lange government (and subsequent National governments) in New Zealand - and many of them are the ones who continue to advocate for the status quo. They are these days, "tribal blue" because Labour have largely moved away from neoliberalism.

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which Ruth Richardson and Jenny Shipley made worse with the Black Budget of 1991

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A progressive government would welcome experience from all ages, races and religion. His tweet comes across as demeaning not just Preble but all old people.

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It is interesting that as the partner of Jacinda, and who is rarely seen with her in photos of her on the campaign trail, he feels the need to comment publicly on how he feels about comments made about her. I can't remember Helen Clark's nor Jenny Shipley's husbands ever commenting in that way about their wives treatment in the media. And in the interest of no gender bias - I can't remember wives of previous PMs doing the same either.
If he can't stand the heat.......will he become a liability to her?

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Jacinda doesn't have a partner she has a "boyfriend". It's documented right here on the Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

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Aside from prurient interest in how likely the relationship is to survive and/or how having publicly announced she wants children then navigates a period of declining fertility, I couldn't care less who a politicians partner is. The only rider there is if there is an insight into the Politicans true nature e.g. Infidelity. I still haven't heard if those car park rumours in the last election were true and I suppose I don't need to know.

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To many it is clear what the labour policy is that they are in favour of CGT (except family home) and what it may be will be decided after consultation with expert advise.

They will also allow foreigners to buy new house only.

Also if people are not happy with change of government will get chance again after 3 years BUT for now what NZ need is change of National.

Better than : https://thestandard.org.nz/three-dirty-hits-three-epic-fails/

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Election 2017 in New Zealand.....
Labour : Let's Do This.
National : Look what you made me do.
NZ First : Are you ready for it (us) ?
Greens : I would like to be excluded from this narrative.

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"This" is a pronoun, 'specific person or thing close at hand.'

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TOP over here, over here, don't forget us

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No false choices here Steven!
Rather less AsSpirational than increasing the tax take by endlessly increasing immigration but thems the breaks! Washdoesn'twash

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Doesn't really matter what anyone on here says at the moment as voting day is when NZ will find out whether it will continue to be a great country to live in or not.
Why on earth would you vote out a government that has done a very good job for most people in the country.
Just because you don't own a home doesn't mean that National has done a crap job, quite the opposite as NZ has become an extremely desireable place to live and is prospering.
How can you vote for a leader that really has not got any idea of what she is talking about?
The so-called policies that have been announced have absolutely no detail and let's leave it till after the election for the details.
Labour thinks that the biggest issue facing NZ is child poverty????
There is no such thing as child poverty in NZ when compared to most overseas countries!!!!
If a family is struggling financially and their kids are not eating then I kindly suggest that they should not be continuing to have more kids and take responsibility for their actions!!!

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Why on earth would you vote out a government that has done a very good job for most people in the country.

Fair question. I wouldn't vote out a government that had done a very good job for most people in the country.

However, having voted National in on their promises of doing such a good job, I think it's fair to vote against them for their failure to do a very good job for most people in the country.

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Then I guess seeing there's a lot more home owners and landlords and overseas people that can vote and that would vote for national then it'll be a breeze for them to get in. Or people of all levels must be unset

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And more scaremongering, quite sad really.
NZ was a great country to live in under the last Labour government too, we even got luxuries like pay rises back then.
The world will not end if labour get in (but property speculators may need to pay a bit of tax)

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CGT is dead on arrival, if it arrives at all.
In the meantime, more money will be spent on consultants, working group etc...Manna from heaven for some ?

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If you ever had any doubts about how much Kiwis are concerned about Taxation , then the fact that this article is heading for 300 comments in a few hours should put any doubts to rest

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In fairness, it's primarily specuvestors posting National/Joyce talking points and others pointing out the failings of these.

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Rick , You could be right , but it still shows how indignant those on both sides of the fence are about the issue

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How will agricultural land be treated?
How will crown or government land be treated?
How will tax refund or loss situations be treated on capital gains?
With all the taxes on my industry I am not expecting land values to rise!

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How will agricultural land be treated?
How will crown or government land be treated?
How will tax refund or loss situations be treated on capital gains?
With all the taxes on my industry I am not expecting land values to rise!

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AIRbnb your house periodically and it's no longer a family home. Or then again it still might be - the mystery tax quango will issue their decision. Share the house with others to help pay the mortgage: still a 'family' or a boarding house? Probably, but a tricky one, that. Might need to bring additional 'experts' into the panel. Farms vs lifestyle blocks that earn a bit of cash. A detailed manual on the distinction between them will be published. Houses in trusts, communal ownership arrangements, homes at holiday locations in the name of family members who don't own other property - no worries, a department of special exemptions will be set up to guide us through the minefield.

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More government is better government?

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Whatever , I assume that's tongue - in - Cheek

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Well spotted.

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On the basis of the proposed tax cuts already in the pipeline for next year, Nationals are a shoo in for the fourth term. Why would any one want to sacrifice that and pay extra tax under Labour ?

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Because people live in a civilised society and realise that comes with costs?

The $20 I might not pay in tax a week is worthless to me if crime increases due to cuts to Police, or if I can not get an operation due to cuts to Health.

Would you vote for a party promising to halve the governments tax income?

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I'd be a pretty selfish person indeed too if I voted for $20 extra for myself because I have private health insurance and am unaffected by waiting lists, and spare no regard for those who cannot afford such insurance.

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Maybe they aren't as greedy as some and would rather live in a country where people can afford to live in a house instead of on the street.

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I wonder if the tax working group will be made up of experts from Grant Robertson's "Future of Work" team.

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Blatant obfuscation by Labour on important things like TAXATION will not encourage middle New Zealand to vote for them .

However, Labour gets the youth vote, along with the welfare vote, the battlers vote and some of the renters votes .............and if Winston gets my age bracket vote of Baby Boomers , these merry punters could form the next Government .

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So who's voting for national . People start with labour and finish with Winnie

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I think that successful Kiwis between 25 and 55 will vote National , along with wage payers, successful business owners , professionals ( Lawyers, accountants , Civil Engineers , Doctors ) property owners , real estate agents and farmers .

For me its Party vote ACT , or TOP and lastly NZFirst but only if they go with the Nats .

I am dead scared of being taxed on my lifetime's hard work and savings by a proxy tax working group run by someone who belongs to the Fabian Society

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@Boatman, I share your concerns, but honestly believe a vote for TOP is a wasted vote. Safer to go Act or NZFirst, although Winnie has declared that he hasn't made up his mind..... probably wants certainty of what is on offer to him rather than a policy alignment stance.

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At the end of the day it's a choice between:

1. A party who promised not to introduce new taxes / increase taxes, then broke their promises 18 times over three terms. And ignored tax experts' advice multiple times. Yet has meaninglessly rolled out the same promises again.

2. A party that has said they will not categorically rule out introducing a CGT if a tax panel recommends it, but has categorically ruled out applying it to the family home and land.

People whine and try to spin it so much. Seemingly uniformly because they've had a free ride while others have had to pay tax on their hard-earned money, and the mere prospect of it changing is enough to set them off.

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Or it could be a choice between
1. a PM who will work as part of a team
2. a PM who only ever says 'I will decide' ...and gives the impression they will act more as a dictator than a team player. 'The tax working group will look in to taxes and I will decide which ones to take account of' not 'cabinet will discuss the options and make a decision.'

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The fear on these forums is palpable. Must mean Labour is on the right track.

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It ain't fear - it's dejavu driven depression. Those of us old enough to know from experience what lies ahead when socialists are let loose, understand how quickly enterprise and ambition can be strangled. Personally, I don't really care - a tax and spend government will be good for my business interests but I worry about the country with an inexperienced leader and a deputy who appears bewildered. Hopefully we'll get through the next cycle without any major crises.

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The last really socialist government was Robert Muldoon's. My memory might be a bit fuzzy, but I am pretty certain he led a National government.

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fuzzy, yes.

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I don't think we have a choice. A crisis is likely coming - cemented through the last nine years of kicking cans down the road.

Social democracy is what gave today's homeowners a chance at owning their own home. If social democracy had never occurred in NZ, few would own their own homes today.

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14 DAYS TO THE ELECTION ............ AND STILL NO CLARITY FROM LABOUR AS TO THEIR TAX POLICY

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