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Monday's Top 10 with NZ Mint: China a zero growth economy?; Capital outflows from China; Bjork and the very dotty Sigurdardottir; 'Chancers and rogues'; Dilberts

Posted in Opinion

Here's my Top 10 links from around the Internet at 2 pm in association with NZ Mint.

I welcome your additions in the comments below or via email to bernard.hickey@interest.co.nz.

I'll pop the extras into the comment stream. See all previous Top 10s here.

My must read today is #8. It's all about China's unsustainable debt growth.

1. 'A zero growth economy?' - Gordon Chang at Forbes reckons the Chinese economy is growing much slower than many people believe (including our own Reserve Bank Governor)

He thinks China may not be growing at all, which would be a very hard landing.

Chang points to weak electricity production growth in January and February, low single digit growth in cargo through the Shanghai port and a 6.5% fall in vehicle sales early in 2012.

He thinks Premier Wen Jiabao may not repeat the decisive and very stimulatory action seen in late 2008 and early 2009.

That would be a problem for New Zealand and Australia.

Our Global Financial Crisis was cushioned by China's decision to lend freshly minted money like mad to property developers and railway builders.

We've already seen Standard and Poor's warn that a hard landing could cut Australian house prices by more than 10%.

Here's Chang:

Nobody sees a return to Beijing’s “tidal-wave investing” of the 2008-2009 period.  To his credit, Premier Wen does not want to over stimulate the economy again, and even if he did he no longer has the tools to do so.  Therefore, one has to wonder what he will do this time to get growth back on track.  This is not to say that 7.5% growth is unattainable, but it is attainable only if Beijing takes decisive measures and does so soon.

In the meantime, the January-February results indicate that the downward slide, evident in the last quarter, is picking up momentum.  At the moment, China is heading to an essentially zero-growth economy.

2. More problems in China than the Americans think - Samuel Sherraden, the associate director of the Economic Growth Program at the New America Foundation, writes at Bloomberg about why America's government may be worried about the wrong things in China.

Similar to Chang above, Sherraden says China is much weaker than America thinks.

Here's more:

Movements in currency markets also suggest a lack of confidence in China’s economy. In September, currency forwards contracts, or bets on the value of the yuan in the future, started predicting that it would depreciate, rather than continue the appreciation trend that forwards markets had generally shown since China’s currency de-pegged from the dollar in 2005. Forwards contracts now predict China’s currency will be basically flat in the next 12 months, a reflection that concerns over the Chinese economy remain.

In the past, bouts of weakness in China’s economy weren’t as obvious because its capital account was closed, meaning that capital couldn’t leave the country. Even though the capital account is still largely closed, money can now flow out of the economy more easily than before: In the fourth quarter of 2011, China’s surplus in the trade of goods, services and transfers, known as the current account, was almost completely offset by outflows from the capital account or elsewhere, according to preliminary figures from the State Administration of Foreign Exchange. This indicates that despite China’s trade surplus, investors are still insecure about domestic economic conditions.

There is mounting anecdotal evidence that Chinese are trying to protect their wealth by holding less yuan or even moving their wealth offshore. According to the Hong Kong Census and Statistics Department, China’s gold imports from Hong Kong increased threefold in 2011. This is often assumed to be a hedge against inflation, but it may also be seen as a store of value given a weaker economy and faltering real-estate market.

In a further sign that Chinese citizens may be trying to protect their wealth, gambling revenue in Macau increased 35 percent in January due to more traffic from mainland China, according to Macau’s Gaming Inspection and Coordination Bureau. Gambling is thought to be a way Chinese individuals can exchange their yuan for foreign currency and move wealth offshore. In this respect, increased gambling revenue in Macau may be a contrary indicator for the health of China’s economy and confidence in its currency.

3. Is Bjork in charge? - Bloomberg reports the Prime Minister of Iceland Johanna Sigurdardottir says Iceland needs to adopt another currency such as the euro or another currency.

What is she thinking? The free floating Krona was the one of the reasons Iceland is now rebounding. And she seriously wants to join the Euro...At least the public in Iceland know this is nuts.

A Capacent Gallup poll last month showed that about a quarter of the island’s voters support joining the bloc, or 26.3 percent, while 56.2 percent oppose EU membership.

Iceland could fix the krona’s exchange to the euro and be sheltered by the European Central Bank “as early as by the middle of next election term” in 2015, said Sigurdardottir.

And here's a gratuitous Bjork video. It's oh so quiet, directed by Spike Jonze. Mad. As. A. Cut. Snake. But Brilliant with it.

4. The inevitable response - Brazil is desperately trying to avoid being hammered by money printing elsewhere. It has just slashed its main interest rate to reduce the attractiveness of its Real currency.

Now Reuters reports is suggesting Brazil trade controls on competing car imports from Mexico.

Brazil is pushing Mexico to slash its auto exports to Latin America's biggest economy by more than a third to about $1.4 billion a year as it attempts to shield its own struggling industry from a strong currency. The export quota, proposed in a letter to Mexico's government dated March 8, is one of several Brazilian demands to rework a bilateral automotive trade deal.

The proposal fans a dispute that has stirred tensions between the two regional giants. It could also upset nations such as the United States that provide components for cars made in Mexico.

5. 'Eliminate the Chancers and Rogues from banking' - Tim Whalley writes a nice response to Andrew Haldane's excellent 'Doom Loop' article in the London Review of Books.

Here's Whalley: (I just wanted to write the name without a O and with an H)

Although Haldane is right that there has been a failure of systemic governance, his ready exoneration of individual and board responsibility is surprising. It is not, he says, ‘a story of pantomine villains and village idiots’ (though the CEOs of RBS and Lehman Brothers and their respective boards surely merit an audition for these parts), but governance in financial institutions has contributed to the systemic failure.

The bonus culture speaks to a radical change in the mores of management and governance in banking, and to undo it will require a more brutal response than Haldane suggests. Senior bank executives and board members should be liable to charges of negligence and reckless lending in the event of bank failure and subject to suspension. Unless there is a determined effort to eliminate the chancers and rogues from the banking industry, the most determined regulatory reforms will come to nothing.

6. The imbalances in the NZ economy - Treasury has produced an excellent chart in its briefing to the incoming Finance Minister Bill English. Just spotted it. HT John Walley.

Following an increase in trend growth over the 1990s, the deterioration in New Zealand's economic performance over the past decade reflects a stalling in productivity growth and a pattern of growth biased towards consumption. Domestic demand, fuelled by rapidincreases in private sector debt and government spending, has increasingly dominated overall activity. 

The more-productive tradable sector declined, as ongoing growth in the non-tradable sector drew in resources (figure 4) and resulting capacity constraints put additional upward pressure on costs and on interest and exchange rates. Although average real interest rates were lower during the2000s than in the previous decade, they have remained high relative to other developed countries', and have contributed to thepersistently high level of the real exchange rate.

7. Get the hell out of Afghanistan - In my opinion New Zealand troops should not be in Afghanistan. The latest tragedy, as reported by Reuters, reinforces this.

8. Michael Pettis on China's growth rate - Michael Pettis is a close observer of what happens in China and writes thoughtfully and with detail about the economy there. Here's his latest missive via Credit Writedowns on China's unsustainable economic structure.

And how much will growth slow? The World Bank report apparently doesn’t say, but the consensus has been slowly moving down towards 5-6% annual growth over the next few years. That’s better than the crazy numbers of 8-9% most analysts were predicting even two years ago (and some still are), but it is still too high. GDP growth rates will slow a lot more than that. I still maintain that average growth in this decade will barely break 3%. It will take, however, at least another two or three years before a number this low falls within the consensus range.

And by the way when it does, metal prices should fall sharply. Copper prices have done reasonably well in the past few months as Chinese buyers have restocked, as we suggested might happen to our clients last fall. With the recent easing we may see more strength in copper over the next month or so, but I have little doubt that within two or three years copper prices are going to be a whole lot lower than they are today. Chinese investment demand simply cannot hold up much longer.

9. Greece not fixed yet - Reuters' Ingrid Melander tells it like it is:

Greece's euro zone partners, exasperated by many broken promises, could be tempted to pull the aid plug if the winner of elections penciled in for late April or early May fails to reverse a poor track record on delivering reform. At the same time, a population angry with a prolonged recession could eventually push for another cure altogether if record-high unemployment keeps increasing and EU and IMF lenders ask for even more sacrifices.

"The debt swap deal does not solve the problems of Greece at all," said Holger Schmieding, chief economist at Berenberg Bank. "Of course, without it, Greece would be in huge trouble. But Greece's problem is that it has to return to growth. Otherwise, no debt burden is sustainable."

Greece's economy is estimated to have shrunk by about 15 percent since 2008, when it plunged into its deepest post-war recession, dragged down by tax hikes and wage and investment cuts meant to put public finances back on track. More than one in ten jobs have been destroyed, leaving over half of young people unemployed.

10. Totally Jon Stewart on America's Socialist movement(s) and why Barack Obama is no real socialist. It seems a lot like that scene in the Life of Brian (below) when Brian tries to get into the Judean's People's Front...or is that the People's Front of Judea...

"Splitter!"

 

We welcome your help to improve our coverage of this issue. Any examples or experiences to relate? Any links to other news, data or research to shed more light on this? Any insight or views on what might happen next or what should happen next? Any errors to correct?

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment in the box on the right or click on the "'Register" link at the bottom of the comments.

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current Comment policy is here.

43 Comments

So now everybody is moving

So now everybody is moving their eyes to China and by extension Australia and New Zealand. If Europe and Us still thinks that China can save the day, it's all going to end in tears.
 
The Chinese Goverment just ordered all china's Banks to rollover more than $1 trillion of loan from the local goverment sector. So much for Chinese Capitalism. Just think how much less money the chinese Banks now has to lend for the rest of 2012. Money supply is already shrinking in China due to foreign exchange outflows and with the rollover, there will be even less money /credit creation. and for an economy dependent on credit for growth it is not a good omen.
 
All goverment believes they can control the process (that's why they always say "soft landing" ) but none has demonstrated any real command of economic reality of bubbles management.

Re 1.        How many folk

Re 1.     
 
How many folk here predicted that?
 
Seems to me that we know better than our esteemed PM. There is not, indeed, a lot of "growth coming out of China".

A few.....its been a lie I

A few.....its been a lie I suspect for 5 or more years.....Central govn sets the regions targets and the regions duly comply, or lie about it...
regards

My chinese friend tells me

My chinese friend tells me many companies in China keep 3 sets of books,

  • one to show the government,
  • one to show investors and
  • the real set.

Kind of reminds me of the BLS...
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-414-hyperinflation-special-report-2012
 
 

FYI and further to the links

FYI and further to the links above, China has just slashed its currency by the second most in any one day to get its economy going again. Mercantilests rule OK.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/12/us-markets-china-yuan-early-id...
The People's Bank of China on Monday fixed the yuan's mid-point against the dollar sharply lower, its second biggest single-day fall on record, in the latest sign China intends to let its currency move in a wider range.

It's an economy run by the

It's an economy run by the old definition of a technocrat.  It's the difference between having people in charge who know what they are doing, because they are educated specialists and have been selected by educated specialists, and having a country run by grinners, who are elected by uneducated masses for 20sec soundbites and photo-ops.  Not that there is anything wrong with a bunch of self serving idiots running the country, thats fantastic because everyone gets to have a say.

And here's Ambrose from the

And here's Ambrose from the Telegraph worrying about global liquidity.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/913690...
What the Draghi Bazooka has done is to slow the pace of deleveraging, not stop it. This comes at a cost of big distortions to the credit system and structural subordination of private creditors.
The ECB’s January data showed that real M1 deposits were still collapsing at frightening rates across Europe’s arc of depression, with six-month falls of 12.9pc in Greece, 9.2pc in Ireland, 9pc in Portugal, 8pc in Italy. And remember, this is a leading indicator. Italy is already in a slump. Its industrial output has fallen 5pc over the last year. It faces a further fiscal squeeze of 3.5pc of GDP this year in the middle of a deep recession. Buona fortuna.

"What the Draghi Bazooka has

"What the Draghi Bazooka has done is to slow the pace of deleveraging, not stop it. This comes at a cost of big distortions to the credit system and structural subordination of private creditors."....and there Bernard is the final comment on your call for QE....!
 

Worth a read: The economic

Worth a read: The economic ideas of the world’s most successful hedge-fund boss http://www.economist.com/node/21549968

Thanks. Very interesting

Thanks. Very interesting

Excellent link, thank you for

Excellent link, thank you for that.
This is the source http://www.bwater.com/home/research--press/a-template-for-understanding-...
Lots of good stuff to read.

Oh the irony of Forbes

Oh the irony of Forbes questioning Chinas growth, and writing articles

How Will China Pay Off Its Debt?  LOL
17% of GDP using the same measures that has the US at 101%, and 90% using GAAP which has the US over 500%.  Name one other country that has achieved >10% growth for the last 30 years?  China may be a crappy place to live, but their economic production low debt, and high growth has put the western economies to shame, destroying the myth that democracies are more productive.  This may just be a response to a Chinese rating agency claiming the US was overstating it's real GDP by up to 50%.  A bunch of lulz all round. 

#6  It would have been

#6  It would have been helpful to point out what the chart is measuring (real GDP).  It looked similar to a chart of inflation I saw the other day.

What the chart is measuring

What the chart is measuring is change in real gdp but without showing the relative size of each of the sectors.  That is misleading as an increase starting on a small base is likely to be (relatively) larger than an increase starting on a large base. 
It also only goes back to 1990 so only shows the world under neo liberal economic policies.
Figure 3 in the report is interesting -- gross household income by quintile for 1987/88, 1997/98, 2006/07 and 2009/10.  The bottom two quintiles effectviely stationary, the middle quintile the 80% quintiles show modest increases, the top quintile shows the best increase.  Is this any connection with house ownership becoming harder for first time buyers? 

I noticed that as well,

I noticed that as well, snafu.

I wouldn't be too concerned

I wouldn't be too concerned about Chinese capital outflows, what happens when you start buying physical assets, like farmland and mines, all over the world? Were we not all concerned about some dairy farm profits flowing back into China? I seem to recall some sentiment to that effect.

BH, so your cartoon depicts a

BH, so your cartoon depicts a woman and child thankful for, in this instance, the British troop's presence. But in your opinion NZ should be out Afghanistan... an oxymoron.
Whatever happened to defending the weak? This casual unconcerned prejudice and the inalienable belief that it's all about "ME" getting rich that exudes from the West, is what's put the world in the dire situation it now finds itself in...
Yes NATO/ISAF could have done things very differently (I believe if they had follwed NZs example they may have found themselves in a better position than the do now) but allowing a group of people to force its population back in to the stone ages is tantamount to cracking a nod to Pol Pot and telling him to get on with it... "and hey, while you're there Pol, why not send some of your home grown Khmer Rouge mates out to spread the message in the West..."

New Zealand soldiers are in

New Zealand soldiers are in Afganistan as a form of tribute to the US. JK gets to vist the White House for 20min and get a photo taken with the President because of the presence of New zealand soldiers in Afganistan. The 20 minutes is very useful to JK as it spins out to a week or more of him dominating the local News cycyle. All in all a great success.
 

sigh!

sigh!

Mandalay, what a nieve

Mandalay, what a nieve comment.  Do you seriously belive they invaded in the interest of the Afghanistan (and Iraq) citizens?
Those wars should never of happened in the first place.  The people of those countries are much worse off after being invaded by the west.  All troops need to get the hell out of there and return home pronto.  Afgans and Iraqis can look after themselves as they have done for millenia.
Unfortunitly I think the damage has been done, their recources have been stolen and sold off  to insiders, have left the population indebted their assets stripped and without a means of self-determination having US puppets installed as leaders that are ment to represent the people.
Those countries were invaded for the best interests of the special interests, don't drink the Koolaid!!!

On the bright side, the

On the bright side, the rebuild will be a big boost to GDP.  Seriously though I agree, the only thing Liberated is resources.  Who honestly believes that a Mother feels safe in a country that is under attack from invaders?  What will I do?  It may actually be safe to walk around without worrying about getting hit by a stray bullet, or wondering if the house is going to be hit by a prescision strike.  Pure propoganda, suck it up.

That's right Saddam and his

That's right Saddam and his sons were great leaders and sure looked after those Kurds. And the Taliban executing women in the soccer stadium sure showed us Westerners how wrong we are in not to be following strict sharia law... Top blokes all those guys and the way they treated their people... 
That said if you actually read what I wrote instead of launching in to a personal tirade you might actually have something to argue about... I mentioned AFGHANISTAN (I never mentioned Iraq) and I commented on the excellent manner our Kiwi troops have conducted themselves there. I am incredibly proud of our soldiers, sailors and airmen/women in Bamyan Province and the excellent work they have done with the local population there, building schools and hospitals and bringing stability to the region...do you remember the Giant Buddahs being blown up by your topTaliban mates? I am proud too of the incredible work our SAS are doing in training the ANA and ANP in Kabul so the rule of law can once again be restored...
Perhaps you better read up a little more about this sort of thing before you start yodelling your oh so boring and 2003 rhetoric... and one more thing, the New Zealand Defence Force involvement in Afghanistan is part of a UN Security Council santcioned operation called ISAF... but I'll leave you to read up on the  2001 UN Security Council's unanimous Resolution 1386...
pfft "US puppets"... sigh!
 
PS Stripped resources and Afghanistan is another oxymoron...
فهم قبل الكلام

Oxymoron? $1 trillion in

Oxymoron? $1 trillion in minerals is nothing to sneeze at -
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html?pagewanted=all
.
 

Have you seen much stripping

Have you seen much stripping there mate? There is probably NO mining in Afghanistan at the moment.. easier to buy out australia or the oil coast of NZ... US troops are to be withdrawn by the end of 2014... not much time to strip, is there?
Hence the stripping of wealth and Afghanistan being an oxymoron...
 
 

I am sorry Mandalay you have

I am sorry Mandalay you have been taken in by war propaganda hook, line and sinker.
I have a resonable understanding of the situation, I could go on all night talking about the horrors of these wars and the motivation of a small group of influential people for these invasions, but I just haven't the energy!
Just let me say, when you stand back and look at the immence payoffs for these invasions and the influence there is over the IMF and the worlds largest instutions it all gets a lot clearer.
Even the official stories for the invasions were complete fabrications, lies, there were no weppons of mass destruction and the teliban had nothing to do with 9/11.
And now the war drums are beating over Iran, a peaceful country, very sad.
I disagree with the labour party on just about every issue but I take my hat off to Hellen Clarke for refusing to commit our troups for lack of evidence of any wrong doing.
We have no business being there.
rregards -bb

sigh... "the war

sigh... "the war propaganda"... sigh! I think I too have a reasonable understanding of the situation there... War is hell! I have seen it it, have you?
It's a pointless exercise trying to spin the woes of the world on the 'few influental' people...  I have heard the Jewish conspiracy argument all my life... and it is BS! Another group of people blamed them last century too and a whole lot of Kiwis died in that war...
Iran a peaceful country.... give me a break! Next you'll be saying the US crashed their own planes in to the WTC. The Taliban had nothing to do with al qaeda..." Please! Where was Osama hiding?
Conspiracy bollocks... I won't waste my time any more!
 
ps It was Helen Clark who committed our troops to Afghanistan!

It is very obvious what ever

It is very obvious what ever pretenses may be used to attack Iran will disolve into one pretense, as occured in Iraq. The US will end up claiming that they are there to bring democracy to Iran.
But no the people of Iran do not need the US armies help to govern for themselves, as has happened before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution
Before spouting off some more hysterical rubbish about US good intentions you should read some actual facts,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemony_or_Survival
Bernard is absolutely correct, NZ should not support a war engaged in under false pretenses.
 
 
 

Oh for goodness sakes, I have

Oh for goodness sakes, I have NOT been "sprouting hysterical rubbish about US good intentions!" Have you actually read my comments? I have not intoned the US to be anything, good nor bad, I haven't even mentioned Iran other than to say they are not peaceful country. Go back and read my comments, then apologise mate...
 
You and Brenard are WRONG, New Zealand needs to be there for ALL the reasons I have given... (go back and read my comments) as for getting your facts from wikipedia... ! Do a little more research from a few more reputable sources. For starters, ask the soldiers, sailors, airmen/women who are there and have been there what they think about the good they are doing. Ask Lt Tim O'Donnell's (another Kiwi hero) family what he thought about his role in Afghanistan.
 
As for false pretences... Our troops in the Bamyan PRT are there actually reconstructing, building and protecting and doing a bloody good job... Governments always have agendas, but great good can be done inspite of them!
 
Go back and read my comments!
The cartoon below tells its own story... you might have seen it!
http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article7554498.ece/ALTERNATES/w940...
And that is why we need to be there. To defend those who cannot defend themselves... how can that be a negative agenda and false pretence?
 
PS read my actual comments,

"Governments always have

"Governments always have agendas, but great good can be done inspite of them!", it would obviously be wrong for the military to determine what its goals are independent of the government (in another country). This is an entirely self defeating argument.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/08/us-wants-taliban-even-nastier
False pretenses matter, because the US government does determine the goals and therefore behaviour of the US forces in the region. If you don't correctly justify why your forces must invade, then you should not have forces there. That alone is reason enough for NZ to leave. 
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200209--.htm
The opinions of the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen/women do not actually count to determine if their intentions are legitimate. We may as well ask the German army what they were doing in Poland, if it was legitimate. But the first paragraph of the above article discusses the opinions of people who do count.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904103404576556531604340742.html
Maybe they should be asked, well maybe they should have been asked a decade ago.
"I haven't even mentioned Iran other than to say they are not peaceful country."
Apparantly you think this is a justification to invade, otherwise it would not be interesting to highlight their apparent non-peaceful intentions. That is a pretty ugly pretext in itself, and entirely contradictary, in fact its not even part of the US governments own analysis.
You accuse Iran of being a non-peaceful country, well maybe you should address what the Iranian threat is, according to US defence reports,
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20100702.htm
Maybe you should consider Iranian public opinion, before continuing any further with the fantasy that a US imposition of western values would be wanted or a good thing.
http://www.brookings.edu/reports/2010/0805_arab_opinion_poll_telhami.aspx
I gather you don't actually have any sources to back up your position, when you question my use of wikipaedia are you actually questioning the veracity? Its clearly correct to use any actual record of facts to back up an argument.
 
 
 

How dare you equate New

How dare you equate New Zealand troops in Afghanistan, with the Nazis who invaded Poland... New Zealand is part of ISAF and is in Afghanistan as part of a  legitimate and legal United Nations sanctioned operation... Resolution 1383 was adopted unanimously in 2001.  Are you now going to bring an argument against the legitimacy of the United Nations?
 
Are you trying to tell me that governments don't have their own agends? That they work universally for the universal good of the whole universe?
 
You keep arguing with me about US forces in the Afghanistan... have you read my earlier comments? Your points are irrelevent as this is not a sole US invasion, this is a UN operation. Clearly you have no idea the difference between the US and the UN.
 
I don't know how to respond to your comments about Iran... I am actually gobsmacked... can you actually read words in sentences? All I have said in a comment to someone else, is that Iran is not a peaceful country. I have NOT mentioned my support for an invasion or otherwise and as such I won't be dragged in to a debate with you about it! 
 
Again I say to you, go back and read my comments... tirading about ficticous things and trying to read my mind is just silly and a complete waste of time... I don't need to justify my opinion to you about Iran as I have not given it to you or anyone else on this forum. And if you think Iran is a peaceful country look at the latest massacre in Homs... yes I know it's in Syria, but the only Arab country giving military support to Bashar al-Assad is Iran. 
 
Go and read my comments again and not what you imagine I am saying. Once you have done that, you need to apologise mate.

Do you just post this rubbish

Do you just post this rubbish in the hope that nobody will read it?
Where in 1378 does it say that any use of force is sanctioned to overthrow the government in Afghanistan? It doesn't. It also highlights that the invasion is not a UN operation.
http://www.un.org/docs/scres/2001/sc2001.htm
that is not even slightly the basis for the claimed legality of the invasion,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#Legal_basis_for_war
I am not ashamed in any way of my analogy between NZ, US and German troops in foreign countries. Nor should I be, it is entirely correct to state that they should be judged on exactly the same basis as German soldiers were.
It can be noted that the German rhetoric justifying their invasion of Poland is exactly the rhetoric used to justify the invasion of Afghanistan. Of course the scale of the crime depends entirely on the actions of the invading forces,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preemptive_war
If you don't support US backed aggression in predomenantly Arab countries, maybe you should stop highlighting their apparant inate violence and the unstated implication they need to be instilled with western values, in every single post.
Of course I could not possibly claim that governments do not have an agenda, or that they always work for the good of the whole universe, but maybe we should actually address what you claimed was going on in Afghanistan.
"Governments always have agendas, but great good can be done inspite of them!"
How its possible legitimatize an army acting towards goals not set by their government is absolutely beyond me. Lets hope there are no other regions you believe could be assisted by some un-sanctioned NZ military interventions.
 

You need to ask that question

You need to ask that question of yourself Nic the NZer... "Do you just post this rubbish in the hope that nobody will read it?"
 I will not debate with you, you haven't got a clue... you try hide your ignorance by using big words... it doesn't work. Good luck with your tirades. They will be ignored by me from now on.
Live long and prosper - كلمات كبيرة لا يقول الحقيقة

"Governments always have

"Governments always have agendas"...so does Nic the NZer...!

Correct, I hope it is plain

Correct, I hope it is plain enough from my comments what that agenda is.
 

To talk in around in circles,

To talk in around in circles, talk in riddles, and to engage and argue against points other contributers didn't actually make?

you nailed it one Wolly... I

you nailed it one Wolly... I for one will not read his inane diatribes again!

I think we have all learnt

I think we have all learnt the hard way with our friend nic!!

  I have a family member who

 
I have a family member who lived in Iran up until a few years ago and I have a sister who is currently in Palestine for some reason I don't understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_AHJQiMxIw

I am sure it is not about religion, or ethnicity.  

I am convinced those that control Israel, the shareholders of the US FED, the military industrial complex, principles of the worlds largest press organizations and those that staged the 9/11 event are all inter-related.

Osama was hiding in Pakistan.  Before the invasion the Taliban had custody of Osama Bin Laden and were willing to hand him over for trial if they were presented with evidence which the US couldn't provide.

If invasion had anything to do with 9/11 it was Saudi they would of invaded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98
 

 

 

Banksterbasher have a good

Banksterbasher have a good night.

If anyone needed further

Not me.....and the future

Not me.....and the future looks bleak...as the output drops so growth will become negative....too much simply becomes un-economic due to energy cost input...
regards

WHO IS NEXT "There Will Be

WHO IS NEXT
"There Will Be Euro-zone Debt Crisis Contagion, The Next Greek Tragedy"
 
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33541.html
 (September 16, 2010) – "Restructuring is not going to happen. There are much broader implications for the eurozone should Greece have to restructure its debt. People fail to see the costs to both Greece and the eurozone of a restructuring: the cost to its citizens, the cost to its access to markets. If Greece restructures, why on earth would people invest in other peripheral economies? It would be a fundamental break to the unity of the eurozone." – George Papaconstantinou, former Greek Finance Minister
… (March 9, 2012) – ISDA EMEA DC Says Restructuring Credit Event Has Occurred With Respect To Greece