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Friday's Top 10: Propping up the lie, infinite money printing, Nicole Foss, a Red Queen situation, earth's population to halve, Dilbert and more

Friday's Top 10: Propping up the lie, infinite money printing, Nicole Foss, a Red Queen situation, earth's population to halve, Dilbert and more

Today's Top 10 is a guest post from Murray Grimwood, who comments on this website as powerdownkiwi. He also has his own blog.

As always, we welcome your additions in the comment stream below or via email to david.chaston@interest.co.nz.

And if you're interested in contributing the occasional Top 10 yourself, contact gareth.vaughan@interest.co.nz.

See all previous Top 10s here.

1. Ahead of the play.
There are always a few ahead of the play, a few who get permanently left behind, and the mass in the middle. This is about the few who are ahead. It started with Permaculture icon David Holmgren, updating his ‘Future Scenarios’.

David’s argument is essentially that radical, but achievable, behaviour change from dependent consumers to responsible self-reliant producers (by some relatively small minority of the global middle class) has a chance of stopping the juggernaut of consumer capitalism from driving the world over the climate change cliff.  It may be a slim chance, but a better bet than current herculean efforts to get the elites to pull the right policy levers; whether by sweet promises of green tech profits or alternatively threats from mass movements shouting for less consumption.

…without radical behavioral and organizational change that would threaten the foundations of our growth economy, greenhouse gas emissions along with other environmental impacts will not decline. Economic recession is the only proven mechanism for a rapid reduction of greenhouse gas emissions and may now be the only real hope for maintaining the earth in a habitable state.

He opines that if 10% stopped consuming, the whole edifice would fall over.

2. An enormous overhang
Nicole Foss
replies, thoughtfully as always:

The situation we find ourselves in is at such an extreme in terms of comparing the enormous overhang of virtual wealth in the form of IOUs with the actual underlying collateral that the reset could be both rapid and devastating. This could produce a number of cascading impacts on supply chains in a short space of time, as Holmgren acknowledges in citing David Korowicz’s excellent essay on the subject – Trade Off. This is likely to make governments choose to take control, but also likely to make that very difficult, and therefore very unpleasant. In some places control may win out, leading to a Brown Tech type of outcome after the dust has settled, and in others a more chaotic state may dominate, leading to more of a Lifeboat scenario. The difference may not hinge on energy supply alone, although this may well be a significant factor in some places.

And a wee excerpt just for David Chaston:

Decoupling is nothing but an illusion. There has always been a very close correlation between energy use in particular and economic growth. In the era of globalization we claim to have reduced the energy intensity of our developed economies, but we have in fact merely displaced the energy used to the new manufacturing centres. We import goods manufactured on some other economy’s energy budget (and water budget and other resources as well).

I have met Foss three times now, and spent an enjoyable evening debating the big picture with her. She is no slouch, and should not to be lightly dismissed. (Here's a video interview Foss did at interest.co.nz in 2012).

3. Be careful what you wish for.
Different folk get uncomfortable at different points in the narrative. Some don’t want to know that their ‘Clean and Green’ nation lives at the expense of folk working for a pittance, in appalling conditions, in countries which accumulate ‘our’ pollution.

Others know we need to change, but don’t want to really change if it involves too radical a departure from their comfort-zone.

One looking like that is Rob Hopkins of the Transition Towns movement. By its very name, the intention of Transition Towns is obviously a managed morph. Which is at odds with the Holmgren piece. 

There is a progression of thinking in this paper, and a point at which I part company with Holmgren.  Economic growth and the current financial system means we are on course for a 6 degree rise in global temperatures.  Yes, get that.  Current approaches aren't working. Yes, fine.  We need, with great urgency, to move beyond the growth paradigm to a different approach built on local economies and so on.  Yes, I'm with you.  And as Naomi Klein sets out in her recent New Statesman article, there are grounds for building a popular movement around that.  But then to state that we need to deliberately, and explicitly, crash the global economy feels to me naive and dangerous, especially as nothing in between growth and collapse is explored at all.

4. Science is telling us to revolt.
So let’s have a wee look at the Naomi Klein piece. She reminds me of me back in the ‘Seventies; thinking you could change the mass mind-set by bringing-issues-to-public-attention by protesting. I reckon the public mind-set hasn’t moved, is overwhelmingly influenced by propaganda (sorry, advertising) and that time has run out for her approach but – and it’s a crucial ‘but’ - not for her message.

But it was Werner’s own session that was attracting much of the buzz. It was titled “Is Earth F**ked?” (full title: “Is Earth F**ked? Dynamical Futility of Global Environmental Management and Possibilities for Sustainability via Direct Action Activism”).

Standing at the front of the conference room, the geophysicist from the University of California, San Diego walked the crowd through the advanced computer model he was using to answer that question. He talked about system boundaries, perturbations, dissipation, attractors, bifurcations and a whole bunch of other stuff largely incomprehensible to those of us uninitiated in complex systems theory. But the bottom line was clear enough: global capitalism has made the depletion of resources so rapid, convenient and barrier-free that “earth-human systems” are becoming dangerously unstable in response. When pressed by a journalist for a clear answer on the “are we f**ked” question, Werner set the jargon aside and replied, “More or less.”

And her final comment includes this:

In July 2012, a couple thousand scientists and supporters held a mock-funeral on Parliament Hill in Ottawa, mourning “the death of evidence”. Their placards said, “No Science, No Evidence, No Truth”.

But the truth is getting out anyway. The fact that the business-as-usual pursuit of profits and growth is destabilising life on earth is no longer something we need to read about in scientific journals. The early signs are unfolding before our eyes.

5. Earth's population to decrease by at least 50%.
Which brings us to the inimitable Dimitri Orlov.

Surely, they broke the mould producing this far-seeing, cynical Russian émigré who lives on a boat in Boston Harbour and writes so compellingly. 

The cynicism starts about here:

If, like Holmgren says, 10% of the population boycotted global finance, and global finance crashed, Brown Tech would probably just shut down, because its activities are very capital-intensive. Now, since our voices - Holmgren's and mine and those of other people who may be consonant with Holmgren's message - are mainly projected through blogs, I can do some math and figure out how many me-equivalents it would take to bring about the required change in global sentiment.

This particular blog gets around 14k unique visitors a month. Let's assume a sky-high conversion rate of 50%, where half of my readers pledge to support Homgren's boycott. That's 7k people. Global population is 7 billion, 10% of that is 700 million. Dividing one into the other, we get our result: it would take on the order of 100,000 me-equivalent activists/bloggers to bring about the required change of consciousness. Next question: how many me-equivalent (give or take) bloggers are there out there? ... we still get a 99.98% shortfall in the required number of activists/bloggers. La-de-da. But don't let that stop you from trying because, regardless of results (if any) it's a good thing to be trying to do.

His own take – and sadly I’m with him on this – is expressed thus:

My hunch is that those alive today will live to see the Earth's population decrease by at least 50% through famine, disease and war—if they live to see it, that is. How can you tell if you are extinct if you happen to be extinct?

6. Infinite money printing.
Since we’re with him, here are his predictions for the coming year:

So, my prediction is that this will continue happening until something breaks. Nobody knows when it will break, or why, because printing money and using it to prop up the price of stocks is a brilliant business plan that can continue working forever. Yes, I know that some people are pointing out that nothing goes up forever. Look at the housing bubble circa 2008, they say, or the internet stock bubble circa 2000. Bubbles always pop, they say. Naysayers! Well, what I want to say to these naysayers is this: This Time It’s Different. This is a new and amazing breakthrough: infinite wealth creation is now achievable through infinite money printing. It’s like the Singularity! (Remember, you heard it here first.)

7. Propping up the lie.
Yes, Orlov has a sense of humour. Another who does the cynicism/humour bit is the irrepressible Kunstler. Here’s his take for the coming year:

... accounting fraud pervades public and private enterprise, everything is mis-priced, all official statistics are lies of one kind or another, the regulating authorities sit on their hands, lost in raptures of online pornography (or dreams of future employment at Goldman Sachs), the news media sprinkles wishful-thinking propaganda about a mythical “recovery” and the “shale gas miracle” on a credulous public desperate to believe, the routine swindles of medicine get more cruel and blatant each month, a tiny cohort of financial vampire squids suck in all the nominal wealth of society, and everybody else is left whirling down the drain of posterity in a vortex of diminishing returns and scuttled expectations.

Wish I could sling words together like that! He goes on:

Now, a number of stories have been employed lately to keep all these rackets going — or, at least, keep up the morale of the swindled masses. They issue from the corporations, government agencies, and a lazy, wishful media. Their purpose is to prop up the lie that the dying economy of yesteryear is alive and well, and can continue “normal” operation indefinitely.

Agreed. 

8. From the camel’s mouth.
Back to what underwrites every good, and every service, ever proffered; fossil fuels. More specifically, the most essential one. What of it for 2014, from the experts? Here’s an interview with someone who knows more than most.

Q: In the larger context, how has your view of future world oil production supply evolved over the last four or five years?  As a benchmark, I reference your slides from the 2009 Oil & Money Conference.

“In 2009 I highlighted several factors that inhibit production expansion including: decline rates (more extreme than ever with shale oil and deep offshore), limited investments (quadrupled capex/barrel in the last few years) and economic growth (still recovering). In the long term, reserves depletion remains very high with totally inadequate reserves replacements regularly obscured by resorting to claiming “resources” as reserves.”

Does that remind you of someone with a low profile round here? Nah….. J 

The realities of the 2009 O&M forecast of a limited plateau of oil supplies have been pretty much vindicated since then. The oil plateau may now be inflated by about 1 - 2 Mbd of high cost unconventional oils but all major forecasters see this as pretty much transitional. The plateau itself remains a reality and unfortunately its duration is still unlikely to extend beyond the end of this decade.

There you have it, from the camel’s mouth.

9. A Red Queen situation.
Someone – I think it was Jeremy Leggett  – stated that half of the non –FSU, non-China oil rigs are involved in just two plays; the Eagle Ford and the Bakken, just to keep production abreast of the steep depletion-rates. It’s best described as a ‘Red Queen’ situation; running hard just to stay on the same spot. Here’s one take:

Formations in North Dakota’s booming Bakken Shale, by contrast, decline 6 percent every month, said Lynn Westfall, director of energy markets and financial analysis for the Energy Information Administration — the U.S. Energy Department’s independent analytic arm.

“With swift declines like that, you need much more timely data,” Westfall said. For every 100 barrels of oil produced in the Bakken, he said, 70 barrels simply replace declining production from old wells.

“You’re having to run faster to stay in place,” Westfall said.

And yet:

In his presentation at Columbia University last month, Sieminski, of the Energy Information Administration, said the agency believes that U.S. natural gas production can grow until at least 2040, and while oil production may plateau in the next decade, it will increase to “levels significantly higher than where we are now.”

As a younger generation say so eloquently: ‘Whatever’.

10. History compressed.
There had to be a vid-clip. Goes without sayin’. I could have just slipped this into the ‘Top 10’ thread once a day for the last few years, and gone fishing (except that I don’t fish any more, having noted the emptying of the ocean from personal experience). Here it is; history compressed. 

11. Bonus issue for those capable of original thought.
There is one more new-year prediction I’d like to share. There are folk hereabouts who don’t think, won’t think, who need to believe, who chant mantra – but there are some (Waymad comes to mind, Christov, Iconoclast and others) who are capable of original thought. This is for them. It requires a few minutes to read, so save it for one of those ‘feet-up, just poured a cuppa’ moments. I’ve seldom seen the big picture better put.

an excerpt;

Today almost everybody still believes that economic growth is the great salvation of humanity. If we could just get back on track with growth everything would work out.

There are only a handful of people in this world, who like me, have thought through the consequences of this logic. I think a proportion of that handful are reading this blog! This group constitutes a vanishingly small percentage of the world population. Either we are complete fools or there is mass delusion at work. I will unashamedly declare I am no fool. Yet I see no way to combat the delusion. The promise of endlessly increasing wealth is just too seductive for people. They are either too stupid, or too ignorant of how the universe works to work out the results. They are blind to the reality of overshoot and assured collapse for the simple reason that those are scary thoughts whereas growth of the economy promises comfort and a good life.

Makes you think, dunnit?

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56 Comments

...what on earth will it take to get some of this news to displace the meaningless gossip that gets pasted as news by mainstream media?

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never happen, for many reasons

People prefer pleasure to pain
Unless it's someone elses pain
From which they can derive pleasure

It requires thought
It requires connection of at least 2 dots
That type of thinking is painful
It hurts

main-stream-media are aware of that

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The sun was (is?) popular because of its page 3.

nuff said.

regards

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Isn't the sun popular 'cos it helps things grow .....

 

....  is tofu a plant or a fungus ?

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One of my Fav's

http://questioneverything.typepad.com/question_everything/2014/01/peak-…"

The decline in available free energy per capita, which is the defining parameter"

regards

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So long as women have a purse full of credit cards and shopping cards you will never solve the consumption/polution problem.

 

Women love shopping, look at any shopping Mall and most of the shops are aimed at women.

 

Compare a blokes flat with a womans.

A bloke has soap powder while a woman nees, not only the soap powder but also, stain remover, fabric softner and everything else the adds throw ar her.

In the shower a bloke needs a block of soap while a woman needs a whole shelf full of shampoos, conditioners and everything else the adds throw at her.

 

Then there are all the nail polishers, and other cosmetics.

 

Not only are they mass consumers they are also mass poluters as these are all chemicals destructive to our environment.

 

Your odds of convincing women they dont need all these things - NIL

 

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As long as we're not making sweeping generalisations, we should be alright, right?

Oh, hang on....

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I can only speak from my own personal life experiences.

If your personal life experiences are of hairy women with no make up and BO then naturally you will comment from that perspective.

 

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Trying to figure out which side you're on here..

Are you saying hairy women without make up and BO are a result of their using the same amount of products men use?

Are you saying all men have BO issues?

Do you prefer the women around you to be nice smelling, hairless, and covered in make-up? Do you agree then that that grooming requirement is costly?

Either women use the same amount of products as men - but that seems to turn them into hairy, make-up free, stinking individuals, in your world - so is this what you are advocating?

Or women keep using the same amount of grooming and styling products they seem to be using, in order to be fragrant, smooth-skinned, perfect-faced beauties - is this what you want?

Can't have it both ways - which would you prefer?

 

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I'm sure the woman thing was a piss take.  It's funny how this is the topic that gets the most attention.  

 

 

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.... people who make sweeping generalisations are complete fools ... all of them ... every single one .....

 

Unless they happen to clean chimneys for a living .....

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The world leaders, who allowed the Financial Crisis to happen, are all in Davos at the World Economic Forum, being advised by bankers, who caused the crisis, on finding a solution to the crisis they caused.

Just another taxpayer funded whitewash

 

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I would reverse that myself, bankers allowed it to happen, it was caused by world leaders, or us the voter living in la la land.

Blue ill, red pill or just get flushed away, latter for most it seems.

regards

 

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I once heard the quote " if the world had no women, then there would be no need for money" . We all consume, men just buy sports gear and drink beer.

 

 

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Um well....no, there would be no men.

regards

 

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Some women buy sportsgear and drink beer. I know men who buy more grooming products than some women I know.

This binary thinking on gender and sex and their stereotyped roles is quite out of date.

Some people consume more than others, and it all comes down to education. In fact, most things about our attitudes and behaviours are a product of our education.

 

 

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#2  ..The situation we find ourselves in is at such an extreme in terms of comparing the enormous overhang of virtual wealth in the form of IOUs with the actual underlying collateral that the reset could be both rapid and devastating. This could produce a number of cascading impacts on supply chains in a short space of time,

 

My own view is that the transition might be slow and that the outcomes will be good.   I think the price of energy ( oil ) will relentlessly rise over time and that the "economy/people" will naturally adapt and change....  

Communties will change... supply chains will evolve closer to the end consumers...

Maybe a reversal in Globalization and growth of Cities...

Maybe a new respect for food and food production...and for the environment.

No body can really predict how this will play out...  it may be apocalyptic or it may even be a benevolent process that takes us off the mindless road on consumerism.

Just like no one in the 1970s' really forsaw todays world of iphones and Pcs' ....  we can't really presume to know how things will evolve in 30 yrs...  and extrapolation is the worst kind of predictive methodology.

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I agree nobody knows exactly how all this will play out.  What we do know is the longer we continue on with business as usual the worse the outcome is likely to be.

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Define "business as usual"?

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Doing what we are doing.  Focusing on economic growth and ignoring the consequences of our actions. 

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Who is "we"?  and on what basis do you say that that is what "we" do?  Is that what you do?  Because I don't do that.  The Government does not do that.  Companies do not "ignore the consequences of their actions" in terms of causing pollution or other non-economic forms of harm, not unless they are happy to risk loss of customer goodwill, fines, prison sentences, losing their licences etc.

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Yes we all do it to varying levels. The fact you can't see this is the problem.  You can try and use your typical and rather smarmy tactic of trying to create doubt about somebody's statement but it doesn't change the facts.

 

Do people buy stuff from the warehouse when a New Zealand made version is available? of course they do (if you can't see why this is bad for the environment you are an idiot).  It's not like the public are deliberately trying to destroy the environment you don't need to just living our modern life does it for us. 

 

What is this bollocks about fines, prison sentences etc.   You don't need to be breaking the law to damage the environment, its not against the law to buy imported food but its also not sustainable.  It's not illegal to sell milk to the world or farm cows but based on current practices it's not sustainable and causing harm.

 

Governments don't do that are you taking the piss I don't hear any governments saying hey you know what lets focus on a steady state economy with no growth in consumption even the greens don't say that.

 

Bloody hell, give me strength!

 

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Certainly, no government has an explicit policy of preventing economic growth, although some succeed in doing so anyway, eg Zimbabwe, North Korea (and look what fantastic records they have in terms of social and  environmental welfare and sustainable development).  

 

That is a completely different statement  from the assertion that governments and businesses focus only on economic growth with no regard to any other consequences.   

 

On the contrary, much of what Governments do is precisely about dealing with the negative consequences of economic growth, even where that means economic growth is constrained.   We now have more laws governing externalities such as pollution and environmental protection than has ever been the case before.   It's true that not all polluters break the law - the law does not (yet) cover every single instance and form of pollution - but it is a lot less easy now to pollute without breaking the law than it was twenty or even ten years ago. 

 

Increasingly stringent environmental regulation, in other words, is an aspect of "business as usual", as is ever-increasing consciousness and concern on the part of more and more people and businesses about the wider consequences of their actions.

 

Whether it's "bad for the environment" to buy imported rather than locally-made depends on a number of factors.  The transportation costs of getting a good from one country to another are only a small part of the total environmental impact of the manufacture, sale, use and ultimate disposal of that product.

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What is completely lost on MdM is that it isn't about defining behaviour, it is about measuring and observing results or outcomes. But then I stopped bothering to argue with MdM a long time ago because there is either a lack of intellect or deliberate attempt to use the fallacious tactics to isolate and trivialise a part of the argument.

 

If there are more polluted streams in New Zealand than there were 30 years ago then "we" have let that happen. It is absolute nonsense to argue the semantics around "we" when the bottom line is the streams are still dirty.

 

 

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I ask people to explain further when their statements seem vague, unsubstantiated, over-generalised or unclear.  When I feel I have understood what they are saying and I don't agree with them, I explain my reasons. 

 

If you're only interested in exchanging soundbites with people who agree with you, that's fine by me.

 

Certainly, where there are pollution problems - and nobody's denying that there are - then human activity is most likely to be responsible for that.  But if something is to be done about it beyond generalised moaning and despair, surely it's important first to identify exactly which humans, exactly which activities, and exactly why those humans are making the decisions they are making?   Leaping straight to the conclusions and implementing a solution based on popular preconception may make people feel good and help politicians win votes, but those who actually care about the environment more than they do about politics would rather look for solutions likely to address the problem.

 

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I ask that Libertarians try and think outside Mises and extremist politics.

Fat chance.

regards

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What exactly was libertarian or extremist in what I said?

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MdM - you're a mixed bag. Hes right about you, in that you zero in on the 'out', often. That is a sign - to me - of a desire to deny. I've just seen it too many times, over too many years. GBH's empty humour is something similar, as is the 'luddite' type denigration. Dig under all, and you find fear and a wish to reject.

  That's OK, but the reality is that no amount of money makes physical things happen, if the energy isnt there to do the physical work. That goes fr sequestration, which would take so much of the extracted energy, that we'd be down perhaps to 50% available. No way BAU copes with that. So we have to deny, which may salve some twisted consciences, but does nothing about the physical problem.

  The vote-winner at the moment, everywhere, is for 'more money in the back pocket'. Which goes to prove, perhaps, that human-kind is too stupid to survive.

 

Your saving grace is that you don't run away, and that you are actually thinking.   :)

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Yes, I try to identify precisely what is the point of disagreement. 

 

Absolutely, money cannot make things happen that go against the laws of physics.   But people's ingenuity, skill and imagination can make things happen that were previously thought to be impossible.  That may be for good or for ill.

 

The question for policy makers and economists, therefore, is what motivates people to use that ingenuity, skill and imagination, and how they can be encouraged to use it for beneficial rather than destructive purposes.

 

Certainly, we'd all like it better if everybody were to contribute as much as they possibly could to common welfare out of a selfless desire to do good and without any thought of personal gain.  Just as engineers would like it if there were no such thing as friction.  But that's not how people work in practice, any more than friction-free is how engines work in practice.  So economists and policy makers try to find ways to encourage people to behave as if they were devoted to the common good, and engineers try to find ways to make machines work as if they were friction free. 

 

In both cases, some of their ideas work and some don't.  That's true of all professions and all areas of intellectual activity.  How could it be otherwise?

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hmmm...    

This does not apply in a Globalized world....  

Seems to be a paradox that while we don't allow companies in NZ to cause non-economic harm ...we have no problem allowing imports from Companies that do...  and the consumer seems to turn a blind eye..

In a Global sense ( global manufacturing is centred in the emerging economies) Companies do seem to be ignoring the consequences..... somewhat.

Likewise with the NZ Govt in not addressing this paradox ... which might be seen as hypocrisy...   ie... Regulating NZ companies but allowing imports from Companies that do the opposite..

 

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Yep, in effect we export our envrionmental damage, frankly I think the consumer really doesnt care. 

What really worries me though is the TPPA.  Here in NZ we have the RMA, that has I think saved us much environmental damage bring in that treaty and then US corps etc can pretty much do what they want.

Kind of wonder just why the NZ govn is so intent on bothering with it has to be a big vote loser.

regards

 

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...as usual. Free market innovation giving old wells new life.

According to the Texas Railroad Commission (which regulates the state’s oil and gas activity), “The Permian Basin has produced over 29 billion barrels of oil and 75 trillion cubic feet of gas, and it is estimated by industry experts to contain recoverable oil and natural gas resources exceeding what has been produced over the last 90 years.” 

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"...as usual. Sustained high oil prices and lack of cheap alternatives giving old wells new life."

I think I fixed your typo? ;-)

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Misleading (par for the course, eh) not really old conventional wells.....

If you look at some real investigations and comments on Texas's output it seems to restricted to 2 or 3 fairly small areas for tight oil/gas as these are the ones barely economic.  Other areas are just not seeing much drilling.

http://peakoil.com/production/barnett-shale-gas-production-on-its-way-d…

Also,

http://peakoil.com/production/the-peak-oil-crisis-the-shale-oil-bubble

"Nearly all of the growth in U.S. onshore crude production these days is coming from North Dakota’s Bakken field and Texas’s Eagle Ford. They account for nearly 2 million of the 2.4 million b/d increase in oil production that the US has seen in recent years."

"n looking at the steep decline in production from legacy wells in the Bakken and Eagle Ford shales, decline between November 2012 and November 2013 increased from 44,000 b/d to 60,000 b/d and from 54,000 b/d to 78,000 b/d respectively. Given that there will be another 4,000 or so legacy wells in production by this time next year the decline going on by this time next year is certain to be considerably greater."

therefore the other spot to watch is,

Montana and Dakota.

http://peakoil.com/geology/oil-peak-in-north-dakota-montana

Then consider that Saudi welocomes this, so much for they have spare capacity, and can stabilze the market.

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/NewsDetails/tabid/96/smid/414/ArticleID/…

"KHOBAR, Saudi Arabia, Jan 19, (RTRS): Top oil exporter Saudi Arabia welcomes the surge in US shale oil production for its stabilizing effect on crude prices, Saudi oil minister Ali al-Naimi was quoted as saying on Sunday after a meeting with US Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz. "

So really not much scope in price drops, and yet demand is still high and is limited by supply....

regards

 

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Water is your best storage medium, biomass is pretty good also. Build damn and use solar or wind to pump the water uphill. Grow trees. Direct solar gain where appropriate. Wind has its place but is inconsistent, except from GBH.

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lets go ad hom.

I think I could say I agree with PDK about 8 out of 11.

Hopefully he does not turn feral because its not 11 out of 11.  But that's often his thing.

And yes.   The exponential thing (things) is not going to work out for us. 

 

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#11....in defense of the 'folk' - your words convey a grossly negligent statement. Communities inherently look to the past for guidance during uncertain times. If past generations survived or succeeded through certain practice, then that practice is typically adopted within its culture....doomsday clairvoyants have proven wrong througout the ages, this is perhaps why the community ignores your message. The collective works smarter than you would appear to give it credit for.

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CR - read Jared Diamond's 'collapse - how societies choose to fail or succeed

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_to_Fail_or_Succeed

 

Then see if you have the same view.

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Currantly  - do read that Jared Diamond.  And then try an work out what the collective was thinking when it chopped down the last tree on Easter Island. 

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Down at the farmer markets this morning we kind of discussed this.

 

The thing that concerned us was not the various challenges, running low on petrol, global warning, acidification and overfishing of the oceans.

 

We think we can meet these challenges. What concerned us was whether the response was a top down 'solution' imposed on us, returning us to economic serfdom, or a bottom up 'solutions' that maintains or even improves our freedom of action.

 

Is that the implication of nested scenerios in #2 PDK?

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Brendon - you can't have a bunch of individual unfettered freedoms, and live within a steady-state.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

 

So you either need rules, or?  I can't think of another way. So heres the bottom-line (say, water quality coming off your dairy farm in ppm) and if you are to have a freedom, it's in how you meet the standard. Total freedom is out, and growth in total wealth is unobtainable.

 

But 'economic serfdom'?  Come on. Can you not see that 'economic' is history? This is about the real world, not clutching wads of proxy and thinking you're 'rich'. Surely you're further down the track by now?

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I know what you mean. My day has been like that too.

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"This is likely to make governments choose to take control, but also likely to make that very difficult, and therefore very unpleasant. In some places control may win out, leading to a Brown Tech type of outcome after the dust has settled, and in others a more chaotic state may dominate, leading to more of a Lifeboat scenario. The difference may not hinge on energy supply alone, although this may well be a significant factor in some places"

 

In #2 between Lifeboat and Brown tech there was Green tech-city/state and earth steward -local community. 

 

This sounds to me like the government response can be at any level and my preference is bottom up. Bottom up or subsidiarity being my key point. Freedom is an inaccurate term it could mean anything, for example freedom from consumerism. I hoped you would get the general point. Being that the people at the bottom having the freedom to be the decision makers on how to respond to the new environment rather than the people at the top. 

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PDK -

Theory is when you know everything - but nothing works.

Practice is when everything works - but no one knows why.

In your Lab - theory and practice are combined - nothing works and no one knows WHY.

 

You have implemented a system which you practice. You then try to combine your theory with your practice.......

Shame on you........you want economic serfdom for others while attaining power and control.

 

What a little trickster.

 

 

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You missed la la land or voodoo economics.

This is where the right wingers/libertarians/free marketeers  pronounce this is how the world works, would work better and impliment it.

We then watch as either at best nothing changes or more likely it all gets a lot worse.

Now rational people would conclude from the observations and data that this was the wrong course, the theory without merit and  change, even reverse course.

The Libertarians/right wingers/ free markeeters on the other hand insist is just wasnt  turned far enough so turn it some more.

We have had 30 or 40 years of turning some more and its just got worse and worse....ergo its time we reversed / went in a direction sound theory and outcomes suggest is prudent.

regards

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If you read J Tainter I think you'll conclude that for a complex government, (in simple terms "large" and centralised) takes a large degree of surplus energy.  So yes there is some danger that the central govn could try and bleed the provinices but really that too would take energy EROEI would kick in for them.  

So really it dpends on how basic we'll be.

For instance how would they control you?  taxation for instance is to a degree voluntary...if entire areas refuse to pay (or limit payment?)?  "Policing" or the collection of taxes would again take excess energy which you simply wont have.  How would communications work? Just got back to the 1900s ~ 1920s, way simpler, more autonomous.

Freedom of action is an interesting concept, simply if that means drill baby drill locally, well in time that will improverish you, or your children, as the natural wealth is a one off. If that means however you take responsibilty and act to limit use and population to sustain your future generations, well you are constraining yourself. 

Plus of course you cant act individually, thats more like robber barons or warlords etc, probably even worse.  ie Id suggest centralised Govn is the best chance you have for democracy.

regards

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Nicole Foss' remarks on energy/economic decoupling don't actually address the BP analysis as referred to by David Chaston a few days ago.  She says "we" have merely displaced the energy used to other manufacturing centres, and that may well be the case for some post-industrial countries.   But if it were the case that the same energy is simply creating the same economic growth, just in different places -  then the relationship between global economic growth and global energy consumption would not be changing.   BP shows that that is not the case - the global economy is growing faster than global energy consumption. 

 

PDK's (as I understand it) is actually a different argument -  (1) the only "real" economic value of anything arises from its energy content, (2) energy can only be converted from one form to another, it cannot be created, and therefore (3) any "economic growth" or "wealth" which does not relate directly to the energy consumed in its creation is not "real".  His response to the BP finding is therefore that that proportion of "economic growth" which is exceeds growth in energy consumption, is not "real". 

 

Accept the first premise and the rest follows.  Don't accept it and the rest is neither here nor there.

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MdM - Foss is a very smart lady - has my respect - but I disagree with her re that. The BP graph is more like it. (we do 'offshore our slave-wage reliance, and our pollution, every time we buy a bit of whiteware from a big-box store, though).

 

There are two variables, one up, one down. The up is efficiencies. You could perhaps double the angle of the energy line, but in practice won't. The divergence would still be exponential.

 

The 'down' is what you get with a reduction in energy-available per-unit and/or per/head, and a reduction in it's quality. There I differ with BP. They have a reason to spin, I don't. The inter-actions between us all get compromised (you order something but they can't deliver.....so you can't, so.....) anf that gets less efficient too. Heading in the direction of dysfunctional.

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GDP vs Energy - Japan

World GDP vs Energy

Anecdotal sure, but when people claim 'meaningful' economic growth can be uncoupled from energy it's hard to see how this could logically happen. Makes for a feel-good thought though.

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Talk about a junket!

That meeting in Davos , did anyone see what it cost per delegate to get a seat there ?

Its a disgrace that taxpayers around the world pay so much  for such a junket by their leadership

Accreditation alone per delegate is $20,000.00  and for the avoidance of any doubt thats US$.

The rest will set you back another US $20k

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#1

 

You already have a scenario where the rate of growth of population is declining, therefore less and less inputs to keep the ponzi scheme going. So right now there is a growing divergence where the inputs are not enough so other creative means are having to be used to give the illusion all is fine and dandy. Passing the debt on earlier (student loasn) and lowering interest rates are manifestations of the problem. Printing money is another.

 

For every person that shuns debt, and therefore removed their contribution to the ponzi, then the slack has to be taken up somewhere else. It becomes harder for the next person to stick their head in the sand and pretend there is nothing wrong, so they become more likely to figure it out and they quit also. Then the exponential factor can start working in your favour. Keep in mind people willing outing from the system are adding to the natural divergence already present.

 

The responsibility of those exiting the ponzi is the build the systems for the next along.

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Touche mon pussycat!

 

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Well, 2c worth.  Or, should that be, 14.7 kilojoules?  Or 3,407 BTU? 

 

The grand-daddy of the sustainability/bottom-up/taking personal responsibility movement, Stewart Brand, (editor of the Whole Earth Catalogue for them of Advancing Years) put pen to paper and produced 'Whole Earth Discipline' - tagline 'an Eco-pragmatist Manifesto'.  Amazon's synopsis reads " Why Dense Cities, Nuclear Power, Transgenic Crops, RestoredWildlands, and Geoengineering Are Necessary"

 

Bit of an antidote to the Orlov/Kunstler Axis of pessimism.  And the 'responsibility' aspect of the book is best illustrated by a few quotes:

  • ex Danny Hillis:  Do for the future what you're grateful the past did for you.
  • accustomed to saving natural systems from civilisation, Greens now have an unfamiliar task:  saving civilisation from a natural system - climate dynamics
  • Many of my contemporaries in the developed world regard subsistence farming as soulful and organic, but it is a poverty trap and an environmental disaster.
  • We are as gods, and have to get good at it.
  • Economics enthusiasts and ecology enthusiasts share an affliction.  Conservatives think that the self-organising properties of a market economy are a miracle that must not be messed with.  Greens think that the self-organising properties of ecologies are a miracle that must not be messed with.
  • Renewistan - the area needed to generate 17.5 terawatts of energy for the world via PV, geothermal, wind, solar thermal, nuclear, and biofuel plus residual coal, oil and gas, will need to be the size of America, not counting transmission, energy storage, materials, and support infrastructure.
  • Find a) simple solutions to b) overlooked problems that c) actually need to be solved and d) deliver them as informally as possible, e) starting with a very crude version1.0 and then f) iterating rapidly.
  • What we call natural and what we call human are inseparable.  We live one life.

I don't subscribe to either of what Arthur Herman (The Idea of Decline in Western History) categorises as Historical or Cultural pessimism.  "The historical pessimist worries that his own society is about to destroy itself, the Cultural pessimist concludes that it needs to be destroyed". 

I'm with Brand - adaptability, engineering solutions and a pragmatic approach will see us through, despite what Gaia throws at us.  We're actually fairly good at That.

 

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he's a fool, then.

 

And remember, his 'whole earth catalogue' wasn't sustainable - it still sold crap for a profit. He never was really 'there'.

 

And, sadly, neither are you. Physics doesn't care if anyone 'gets rich' or thinks of themselves as a god.

 

Go well, Waymad. While you can.

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Ah.  An original new contribution, and thoughtful comment.  And that comment stands even if I don't wholly agree.  thanks waymad

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