90 seconds at 9 am: Spain says only wants bailout without harsh conditions, raising new Euro-zone fears; Stock rally stalls; NZ$ becalmed at 81.5 USc

Yes it seems to me heads I win, tails you lose....however I read that some of the rich in the USA are getting concerned that they dont get lyched. So that strikes me that they know they are doing wrong but will still carry one doing it.

Whats the difference between murder and enslaving someone with life long debt and the misery and exploitation that results? After 30 years of this experiemnt is this all we really have?

regards

Well I dont think it was the Govn (debt) though, but the ppl being crazy with property, and the Govn having to bail the banks to stop anarchy....ditto Ireland. So the Q is of course when Hughy P wants to build more here in NZ, where did all the ppl go in Ireland and Spain?

regards

C'mon. This nonsense has been going on for 4 years. Spain hasn't lost any more money or jobs this year. Got lost some years ago. Why the drama now? Light news day? Spin the bottle? Who's next? Meanwhile Greece rounds up illegal overstayers and deports them.

Mr Christov Sir,

Who can say what will be.   My thought is the EU almost certainly cannot survive in it's current form.  It is currently stuck in a kind of no mans land between a tighter union (like in form to the US or Canada) and unwinding the whole thing.

Despite vast criticism they have done a good job of holding off major explosions, but by 'kicking the can down the road'.  Not to denigrate that achievement, that's all the US has done as well.  Greece has been propped up like a rag doll but that hasn't in any way stopped the forces that are closing in on them.

On one hand the market pressure on Italy and Spain has increased and there is a likely risk they will lose access to markets sometime in the next 12-24 months.  This would be a real crisis (not like Greece) because they are the 3rd and 4th biggest economies in the Euro zone.  That's a problem for two reasons.

• They don't have a fund large enough to bail out economies that large.
• They don't have any political/legal/fiscal structure to deal with it either.

On the other hand there is pressure to "bail out" but close examination brings into stark relief the structural limitations of a currency union.

There is no banking union at this time.  So the banking sector has become prey to balkanisation, meaning people moving funds across borders for protection.  Think about that in comparison to Canada or the US where it wouldn't make any sense to transfer your money from British Colombia to Ontario to protect it.

There is no fiscal union at this time.  So no method exists for inter union transfers.  In the US for example if a state has a finance problem up to 40% of the problem is effectively placed on federal shoulders through payments like social security and tax breaks of various sorts.

There is no system for debt mutualisation.  As a result german tax payers are being to asked to directly carry greek tax payers, which is both economically unjust and politically non salable.

There is no political union at this time.  We see a taste of what will happen in Greece, when forces seen as outsiders try to dictate conditions like austerity measures.  A group can stand together through adversity but they must do it together and own it together.  Even if agreement is reached for fiscal and banking union there must be political union so peoples can be represented.

At this point time is their greatest enemy and the error of the past is now seen as the lack of urgency towards a closer union.  Pride gets us all in the end.

My best guess;

• Smaller deficit economies will eventually exit (forced or willingly) the Euro zone so in the end it will be much smaller than the current 17 countries.
• They will agree to a functional degree to increased union, fiscal, banking and maybe some kind or joint parliament.