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Brian Easton says while Claudia Goldin won the 2023 Nobel Economics Laureateship and may have progressed our understanding of women in the economy, that has not resolved all the issues

Economy / opinion
Brian Easton says while Claudia Goldin won the 2023 Nobel Economics Laureateship and may have progressed our understanding of women in the economy, that has not resolved all the issues
Claudia Goldin
Claudia Goldin, 2023 Nobel laureate in Economics

This is a re-post of an article originally published on pundit.co.nz. It is here with permission.


A woman who was once chief executive of New Zealand’s biggest company said ‘It is true that a large percentage of the [women’s pay] gap is unexplained and that's where the issue comes about; could it be bias even if that's unconscious bias? Regardless of how we've got a gap … the much more important thing is, what are we going to do about it?’

That is so characteristic of the way we tackle policy in New Zealand. We don’t worry about understanding a problem; we focus on solving it. We don’t even bother about trying to find out what is known about it. Just get on with the policy.

There is, in fact, an enormous amount of research on the different income patterns of men’s and women’s earnings – very little of it in New Zealand. (Some of the overseas research has been used in the better policy work in New Zealand.)

If this general neglect as been unacceptable, hopefully it cannot be justified any longer given the award of the Bank of Sweden’s economics prize in honour of Alfred Nobel to Claudia Goldin.

She was not awarded just for her work in women’s economics – which is, after all, also in men’s economics because they are interdependent. Goldin is a bloody good economist (as were the other two female Nobel laureates).

(It was repeatedly mentioned that she is the first women to have been awarded the economics prize on her own rather than jointly. The reason is that in about 1975 the award should have gone to Joan Robinson who made some major innovations in economic thinking. But one member of the selection panel had a snitch on her and vetoed the choice. Never underestimate the extent to which the eccentricities of a panel determine awards.)

Goldin’s many contributions have been mainly in (American) economic history, including on inequality. She was a student of Robert Fogel, the last economic historian laureate, who, like her, imaginatively investigated important questions – in his case, most notably the economics of American slavery – often finding data which no one else thought existed. But she also addresses contemporary issues.

She traced the pattern of American women’s employment over time. For the generation of women born between 1878 and 1897, a successful career typically required forgoing children and sometimes marriage. The choice women faced was ‘family or career’. For their granddaughters born between 1924 and 1943, it was ‘family then job’ for a college-educated woman: work after graduation, marry (soon), have children and drop out of the workforce, returning once her children were in school. But her prolonged absence from work meant she did not have the skills and experience necessary to thrive in the workplace. For Goldin’s last group, born after 1958, many women aspired to achieve ‘career and family’. The shift was aided by access to better contraception, which helped women delay marriage and childbearing and by more liberal social norms.

The research she did on the impact of contraception was with her personal and research partner Lawrence Katz, who is also a very good economist. Using an ingenious research strategy they found that the contraceptive pill gave women more control over decisions about children, enabling them to plan their career and develop their work skills, so the age of first birth increased.

Demographer Natalie Jackson identified an interesting New Zealand twist. Māori mothers have their children about five years earlier than Pakeha ones. What do the latter do in those five years? They add to their qualifications and their paid-work experience. They are much better placed when they return to paid work as the children grow up.

Despite these changes there remains a clear gender gap for these women, most notably with respect to pay. In a recent 2021 book, Career and Family: Women’s Century-Long Journey Toward Equity, Goldin argues that most women no longer suffer unequal pay nor is the gender pay gap driven primarily by women’s choice of occupation. She argues markets generously reward anyone, male or female, who is willing to hold down what she calls ‘greedy jobs’, those which demand long and unpredictable hours. Parents needing to be on-call at home in case a child falls ill and needs picking up from school, or needs cheering on at a concert or football match, cannot hold greedy jobs which require being available for last-minute demands from a client or boss. Typically, it is the mother who spends more time raising children; the gender pay gap tends to open up after a first child. Goldin says ‘Men forgo time with their family and women often forgo their career.’

Does it always have to be like this? I’ve had friends in which the parenting roles have reversed. But there is still the inequality, even if it does not appear as gender inequality. Goldin is optimistic that the ability to work at home will reduce the gap – it won’t eliminate it though.

She is not telling the full story. Some of my own research illustrates another dimension. Fifty years ago, I was interested in how non-market work affected the market economy. (This was well before the popular literature on the deficiencies of GDP as a measure of human activity. The long history of economists concerned about the problem before my work is rarely mentioned by the populists.)

I got blocked because there was no data. That led me to advocate an official time-use survey which Statistics New Zealand first implemented twenty-odd years ago. It is an extremely valuable resource although sadly few people have tried to exploit it. (Where are the Claudia Goldins when we need them?) My findings are reported in Not in Narrow Seas: The Economic History of Aotearoa New Zealand but here is a summary of some of them.

Time-use surveys ask individuals to keep diaries of what they did each hour. It turns out that on average men and women spend roughly the same amount of time on most things such as personal care (including sleeping) at 76 hours a week (out of 168 hours) and leisure (40 hours a week).

The big difference is in their working time balance. Both spend about 48 hours a week on such activities, but men's paid labour force activity (including travelling to work) is 30 hours a week while women's is 16 hours. (The male figure appears low because it includes the retired and students.) The remaining time is mainly work around the house; men do about half the amount women do.

So men and women work as long but men get paid for almost twice as many hours. Hence women have lower incomes from working, even if you adjust for age and qualifications.

Additionally they get paid less per hour. The reasons they get paid less are various. Goldin gives some, such as women having less work experience and being less into greedy jobs. What she does not pay much attention to is discrimination. I think that comes from her ‘Chicago School’ tendencies. (She is at Harvard University).

Neo-liberals argue that discrimination is insignificant, it’s the way the markets work. Others suggest that labour markets are fragmented and do not work as competitively as the neo-liberals assume. A particular issue arises if a single employer dominates a particular market. (The technical term is ‘monopsonist’.) They can screw down wages. (One of the pioneers exploring such non-competitive markets was Joan Robinson.)

We have had much legislation since 1973 to weaken the discrimination. The gap has diminished but it is still there. New Zealand’s most widespread monopsonist is the government. To give the Ardern-Hipkins Government some credit, it was reducing its monopsonistic discrimination. The consequence has been higher taxes with no real increase in services – just greater fairness.

Claudia Goldin would seem to give little weight to the last couple of paragraphs. Many economists would disagree. Even so they will celebrate her Noble laureateship. Her research has contributed markedly to the progression of the scientific part of economics even if some of her policy conclusions may be limited.

Even more, the award recognises an area where economists ought to be doing more work, rather than leaving non-economists to argue from ignorance.


*Brian Easton, an independent scholar, is an economist, social statistician, public policy analyst and historian. He was the Listener economic columnist from 1978 to 2014. This is a re-post of an article originally published on pundit.co.nz. It is here with permission.

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34 Comments

"The big difference is in their working time balance. Both spend about 48 hours a week on such activities, but men's paid labour force activity (including travelling to work) is 30 hours a week while women's is 16 hours. (The male figure appears low because it includes the retired and students.) The remaining time is mainly work around the house; men do about half the amount women do."

I'm not sure what is meant here. Women on average are working less hours and therefore earn less overall? Or they're doing more work they're not paid for?

One thing not mentioned is that as more and more women are appointed to management positions then surely they are involved in setting salaries/wages and making staff appointments? If that's the case, women in management hold at least some of the responsibility for gender discrimination when it comes to rates of pay. It can't be only men who are supposedly underpaying women. 

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"To give the Ardern-Hipkins Government some credit, it was reducing its monopsonistic discrimination. The consequence has been higher taxes with no real increase in services – just greater fairness."

 

You could not make this s%%%t up.

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"The remaining time is mainly work around the house; men do about half the amount women do."

What was the definition of the "work"? Did it include for eg maintenance of house, grounds & vehicles, childcare/growth experience, cleaning, cooking, budgeting & investment. And, who did they ask 😉

There's no real gender pay gap, just different choices & families have to make their own decisions on their personal circumstances. It's not the academics & politicians who have any right say what's good or bad.

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Where I work there is no pay gap, everyone is paid according to the role. The only difference is sometimes the boys are working while the women watch. Or more often than not I'm doing all the work while she sits there getting paid. We don't talk about the work gap though do we.

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I employ men and women. Different races, cultures, and ages - we're very open as employers and hire anyone we think is the best fit for a job.

Anecdotally, out of 5 women we get, only one works equally to the men's counterparts. Both data-driven (a number of them were in sales, so it's easy to see the outcome) and on a personal level (will they make an extra effort to serve the client without asking or not).

Interestingly enough, on several occasions, we paid more to women. I am unsure how that happened; perhaps they had better negotiation skills. Or we put more trust, I remember once thinking that the woman Software Engineer we hired would put more effort into proving that she was good for a role and would grow faster, which was utterly false. 

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Can the author please point me in the direction of the females who are paid, and will work for, less than their male equivalent because I'd like to use them. I have a mountain of work I can put their way.

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There is no such thing as a gender pay gap...

 If there was, men wouldn't be able to find work as women would be hired for way less than men.

This topic is a prime example of woke politics failing the masses.

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The recent 20% pay equity boost achieved by nurses shows that you are wrong.  Likewise, there are big boosts coming for other female-dominated Healthcare roles.

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I disagree wholeheartedly. In a profession mostly dominated by women, and publicly funded, it has been to the Ministry of Health's benefit to keep wages down irrespective of the gender of it's workers. Simply because the union and workers pushed hard enough to get a pay parity that catches them up on the last few years has absolutely nothing to do with a gender pay gap.

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Are you familiar with how the process was carried out? Work forces with similar characteristics, often in the public sector, but dominated by males were taken as a comparison. I'm familiar with the Allied Scientific and Technical claim, where the comparison group was mostly Detectives. 

Presumably the government has just as much incentive to keep wages low in male-dominated public sector jobs, it just doesn't seem to have happened to the same degree. Compare skilled healthcare wages requiring degrees meaning you are not paid, or paid minimally for several years, against Police and Firemen who often go to work straight from school, are paid from the get-go, and training is measured in months not years. 

If you're thinking 'oh yes, but those are physical jobs' - this is one aspect of the gender pay gap where we value 'manly' work more highly. 

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It's not about gender it's choice. Was anything stopping them choosing a better paying career or better organising to pressure the employer for a better deal ? How do you think men achieved wage gains since the Industrial Revolution ? - it wasn't without personal risk.

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It's a little more complicated than that - for example, there is evidence that women sometimes face backlash for attempting to negotiate for higher salaries. The choice/gender oppression thing is a bit of a false dichotomy. The choices available to us, and what happens to us when we make certain choices, are shaped by the way society works. For example, think about the 'choice' to stay home or go back to work after having kids. It's a choice in that there's nothing legally preventing people (of either gender) choosing either option. But the choice is constrained by things like availability of affordable childcare, availability of affordable housing requiring two incomes, etc. It's also constrained by these kinds of concerns: what attitude will people have toward me if I take (say) 5 years off work until my kid starts school? Will it be easy to get back into my career, or will people doing the hiring be reluctant to hire someone? 

 

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I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say - however that fact that it always been complex (& even more so in a much more sexist & racist past) doesn't change anything, it's still about people making their own difficult choices.

And, "...there is evidence that women sometimes face backlash for attempting to negotiate for higher salaries" is nothing to do with gender, men have faced this since forever (while worrying how far to push it when they were the main family income earner). The choice is still the same: stay & suck it up or find a better deal & go.

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Indeed. But note that this, and the other female-dominated Healthcare roles you refer to, is the case where a monopsonist is able to screw down wages. Brian refers to this in his article. This discrimination is not a competitive market outcome, and is a function of negotiations between a single buyer (government) and a single seller (unions).

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In a true meritocracy one is hired and paid by the value they bring in terms of skills and experience to a role. Granted the number of those in central, and I don’t doubt local governments, that attained roles over their peers who had greater skills and experience, on the basis of non merit-based reasons, this is why we see the failure in service delivery. The result being many being paid more than their worth in roles they are ill equipped to fulfil.

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So to summarise this whole article, men do twice the amount of paid work women do (I.e. a job) and women do twice the amount of unpaid work that men do (I.e. housework and child care).

This appears to be the “inequality” that the author is pointing to which in reality is called having children and supporting each other as a couple. For most couples this is a choice they happily make. Is there a problem here? 
 

 

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Exactly.

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We still have problems to watch for - Making that choice without considering that a period of unpaid work doesn't tend to advance earning potential, in comparison to the equivalent period of paid work, and

Kiwisaver contributions (although considered relationship property) tend to stop during the unpaid work and afterwards the balance will forever look worse than the equivalent balance from the person who remained in paid work.

 

 

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100%. My wife is not working, and I am, which is arrangement we came to because she is capable of becoming pregnant and breastfeeding, and I am a man. We have a shared bank account, so the benefit of me working, and the disbenefit of her not working, is shared equally. On paper, our family has an enormous gender pay gap. In practice her discretionary spending is higher than mine, and I do way more around the house than my father ever did.

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Thanks for this fascinating article which I've now sent to a bunch of friends. Not surprised all the comments are blah blah "What gender pay gap?" though given this site's audience and subject matters. 

Just because it's invisible to you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some of us experience it first hand and have to fight really hard to overcome it - especially my Pacific and Māori friends. It doesn't exist in isolation - it exists alongside navigating those "greedy jobs" and changing negotiations in relationships about what support looks like.  Really interesting to see the research about Māori vs Pākehā women, and I wonder if that also holds similar for Pacific women too. 

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There is a gender pay gap but is that because of discrimination or an outcome of decisions women and family units make? It is illegal to pay different wages  by gender. 
 

You do raise a good point regarding Māori and Pasifika. I suspect pakeha female are better paid than Māori. Will I get a Nobel prize if I can prove this and published in articles such as this?  

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Would be curious to see the answer to that if all the factors were taken into account - experience, education level etc.

 

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It's nothing to do with gender or race. All about individual's life choices.

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I think like many things where it's a complex human system,  the answer is both/and. Both discrimination in some roles and specific decisions by families not to take those "greedy" roles because they don't think it's worth sacrificing family time for.  

There is existing research showing that yes the pay gap goes in this direction (from memory, I'll see if I can find it as it's a few years old now): Pākehā men, Pākehā women,  Māori men, Pasifika men and Māori women,  Pasifika women. I recall that disabled people were also at the bottom. 

Edit: here it is,  hot off the press: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/talanoa/pacific-peoples-excluded-from-nz-gov….

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Good article. 

So according to this there is no pay gap, it's just about choices of looking after family (mainly female) vs working in greedy jobs (males).  "Goldin argues that most women no longer suffer unequal pay nor is the gender pay gap driven primarily by women’s choice of occupation"....

So many people also pushing for gender quotas too.  If you follow the logic does that include a minimum amount of women working in the sewers and men as kindergarten teachers?   That will make a lot of people miserable.  We have to accept that, on average, men and women prefer different types of jobs and value flexibility and home time differently. 

Equal opportunity and equal pay for any job given same experience, skills and hours worked.

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When it was announced they said a woman called Claudia had won it and I assumed it'd be Claudia Sahm.

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I wonder if she did a physical 'work' calculation to compare the amount of 'work' done by men vs women, rather than just time?

Can't remember the last time my wife mowed the lawns, chopped the firewood, or did anything more arduous than carrying a washing basket.

Measuring by time spent alone is stupid. Value is derived from output, not input.

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Presumably your wife wasn't carrying a washing basket around just for the hell of it - but rather was bringing in washing. When you think about it, there's a surprising amount of admin/work that goes into washing, especially if you have a family. Collecting everyone's washing, stripping sheets from the bed, sorting washing into appropriate categories, keeping on top of who is running out of clean socks/undies, etc so you know when washing needs to be done, treating stains/pre-soaking things, putting on a wash in time to get it hung out before needing to leave the house for work/Saturday sports etc, bringing washing in, ironing it if necessary, sorting and folding it, putting it back in the right place. And unlike mowing lawns these aren't things that happen once a fortnight and an easily be put off for a few days if something else comes up. Unless you've got a really small family washing is pretty much an everyday task. 

You seem to be implying that simply because something is more physically arduous, that it is therefore more valuable. But this seems an odd way to measure value. 'Physical' work certainly isn't the only kind of valuable or important work.  

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"...sorting washing into appropriate categories..."

who knew

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A woman who was once chief executive of New Zealand’s biggest company said ‘It is true that a large percentage of the [women’s pay] gap is unexplained and that's where the issue comes about; could it be bias even if that's unconscious bias? Regardless of how we've got a gap … the much more important thing is, what are we going to do about it?’

This fundamentally whats with the whole system of equality, pick a statistic and try to make it equal. Of course its important why, there could be many reasons why it could be women choose to go into professions that provide more emotional reward instead of financial. It could be men choose riskier jobs such as forestry. And maybe others. All of these can be valid reasons for the differences but don't need to pay being equal.

I say I want life expectancy equality and we should focus men's health until we get it, it doesn't matter what the reasons are, it maybe biological but that's not important the question is what are we going to do about it. Oh wait that's stupid.

 

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Makes me want to puke. An ex work colleague had 3 kids in her 10 yr tenure with our company, professional healthcare. Approx 3 years of maternity leave with the business having to find contractors to cover the absence alongside pushing the workload to remaining employees. If we were both employees of the same company for 10 years how can she expect the same salary when absent (but still regarded as an employee) for 3 years? She misses 3 pay rises (3% per annum, +/-) and the opportunity of gaining further experience.

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Here we go… this time instead of race it’s sex that’ll need special regulations to ensure equal outcomes….

already we see men overseen for women on boards for quota and annual reporting stats..

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There is an easy solution to the gender quota silliness. An adequate proportion of men should identify as female. 
There, problem solved. Now we can move onto the next grievance. 

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A lot of males being very defensive in their comments. 

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