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Govt still on track to get rid of little-used deposit guarantee scheme at end of year, despite Aussie scheme's extension, Finance Minister English says

Govt still on track to get rid of little-used deposit guarantee scheme at end of year, despite Aussie scheme's extension, Finance Minister English says

By Alex Tarrant

The New Zealand government says banks here are in a strong enough position for it to go ahead with the removal of its deposit guarantee scheme, after the Australian government decided to extend its scheme into next year and beyond.

New Zealand’s banks have opted to not be covered by the New Zealand scheme, which only covers selected deposits in a handful of finance companies and building societies until the end of the year, although they still can opt in for a fee.

The scheme was announced by former Prime Minister Helen Clark in October 2008, covering deposits in all financial institutions after the Australian government indicated it was about to introduce a similar scheme due to global turmoil following by the collapse of US investment bank Lehman Brothers.

Originally designed to end in October 2010, the government extended the scheme until December 31, 2011, giving institutions the choice of whether to be covered or not. New Zealand's banks at the time decided not to be covered by the guarantee, saying they were strong enough to operate without it.

Australian Treasurer Wayne Swan last weekend announced the government there would extend its 'Financial Claims Scheme' covering deposits of up to A$1 million to February next year. From February 1, the cap would be lowered to A$250,000 for an unlimted.

"It will ensure that we continue to have one of the most generous and secure deposit insurance schemes in the world, and builds on the Government's record of ensuring our financial system remains among the strongest in the world," Swan said in a media release on September 11.

The move was welcomed by Australian banks, considered as being among the safest in world.

However the move was critisised by the director of the Australian Centre for Financial Studies research, Kevin Davis, who said it could present a problem for New Zealand banks which would not have the same cover. That meant there was a risk of a drain on New Zealand bank deposits, as New Zealanders would be covered by the Australian scheme if they invested across the Tasman.

'We don't need one'

But New Zealand Finance Minister Bill English was confident banks here were in a strong enough position to not need such a guarantee, and said the government was on track for removing the New Zealand  scheme at the end of the year. 

“The actions the Reserve Bank has taken over the last couple of years have put out banks in a stronger position, and we’re headed to removal of the deposit guarantee scheme completely by the end of the year,” English told media in Parliament buildings on Tuesday.

“I think it’s important that banks are structured in a way that mean they can handle the risks of operating in world financial markets, and the taxpayer should not be put in the position where they have to pick up any losses incurred by banks,” he said.

“We’ve been able to move to remove the scheme completely. The Australians have always had a scheme there of some sort. They’re reducing the scope of their scheme quite considerably, so we’re both headed in the same direction. But I think we’ve got to the point of removing the taxpayers’ underwrite of the banks by the end of this year.”

Why not?

New Zealand and Australia were heading down different paths in terms of how they handled bank failures, with the New Zealand government, through the Reserve Bank, looking at ways to ensure taxpayers would not be paying if a bank fell over.

The RBNZ is currently looking at implementing an 'Open Bank Resolution' policy, which would lead to lower expectations of the government using taxpayer money to bail out a failed bank, and more pressure on a bank's shareholders to stabilise a bank if it got into strife.

In August, Moody's analyst Marina Ip told interest.co.nz's Gareth Vaughan that the OBR policy - effectively a 'living will' policy - "clearly outlines" an alternative step that could be taken in the event of a bank failure whereby shareholders and debt holders - working up through subordinated to secured and senior debt holders - would pick up the tab.

"Because this is one of the tools that they may use, it does from a government point of view, have less expectation that the government will use its own funds to bail it out and that it will now most likely rely on the equity holder to stump up first for the support and then it goes up the (debt holder) ranking in terms of level of claim," Ip said.

She added, however, that the OBR policy was only one of the tools the Reserve Bank could use "to bring a bank back to life." What ultimately happened could depend on the size of losses.

"If it was a small amount they might put it (OBR) into play because they could be easily absorbed by an Australian parent by injecting capital to cover. If (losses) are slightly larger there could be a different decision because from a franchise and reputation position New Zealand might not want to see one of its banks attract negative headlines," Ip said.

"If it's something more systemic, if there's two or three banks involved, they might react differently," she said.

See more here on the Reserve Bank's pre-positioning for Open Bank resolution in Gareth Vaghan's March 28 article, RBNZ sets out to ensure shareholders and creditors absorb cost of any bank failure, not taxpayers.

(Updates with section on OBR)

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45 Comments

I have little doubt that at some point the scheme will have to be brought back, despite what English claims.

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I don't mind as long as finance companies are not included.

Treasury advised against the inclusion of finance companies but the goverment of the time went against that decision. Hopefully we have learnt from our mistakes.

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The problem will be that it will inevitably be have to be rushed back in as an emergency measure in response to the next major crisis - as the last one was. Far better to have shrunk the existing guarantee (say to a max of $25,000 coverage per account per bank), so that it can then be rapidly expanded again as appropriate.Our politicians are unimaginative dolts who are unable to poise the question 'what if?'.

As for covering the Finance companies - thankfully there are hardly any left anyway.

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Our politicians are unimaginative dolts who are unable to poise the question 'what if?'.

Our policitians do appear to have asked the question and have come up with an answer - admittedly probably incompetent, and again wrong.

Take a look at the RBNZ's Open Bank policy. From memory, in there you will see that the government has decided not to back retail bank depositors when banks fail. Retail depsositors will rank behind covered bond holders, equal to ordinary bondholders, and behind keeping up confidence. 

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what if?

Of course not, they are in the business of getting blood from a stone....ie there is no allowance for resilance, that costs money they cant justify to the voter....

regards

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My full comment - the balance being prevented by Steven's comment.

Our politicians are unimaginative dolts who are unable to poise the question 'what if?'.

Our policitians do appear to have asked the question and have come up with an answer - admittedly probably incompetent, and again wrong.

Take a look at the RBNZ's Open Bank policy. From memory, in there you will see that the government has decided not to back retail bank depositors when banks fail. Retail depsositors will rank behind covered bond holders, equal to ordinary bondholders, and behind keeping up confidence. 

While it is true banks probably don't need such a guarantee:

Finance Minister Bill English was confident banks here were in a strong enough position to not need such a guarantee

Bill carefully ommits any consideration of the needs of depositors.

Such is the thinking of a Finance Minister who is ex Treasury.

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In which case there will be huge bank runs as depositor flee...Bollard commented not that long ago that lost of $100 notes were taken out in the last event and have not been seen in circulation since....so some NZers have $s under the bed..........Why is BE so dumb not think ppl will try and take thier $s out if there is no safety? and why the f*ck do the big guys get protected and not the Mom and Pops?  its obscene....and just who else is there to vote for?...bugger, all of them are losers....

regards

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Yep!

its obscene....and just who else is there to vote for?...bugger, all of them are losers....

They are all losers, but only Labour and National are intimately responsible for the status quo. My view is that I don't care who you vote for as long as it isn't for one of those two i.e. don't vote for Labour or National. 

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What happens if all voters voted for none of them?

Protest vote: add your own option to the voting paper - None of the above.

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What happens if all voters voted for none of them?

Good thought, but voters aren't that much smarter than politicians, so 60+% will vote with the crowd and the media spin. National will still claim to have a mandate, but stronger minor parties might encourage more membership and participation in politics - and hopefully encourage some completely new political parties to emerge. Possibly even ones that are not simply self serving "losers".  

I like the principle of natural selection applied to political parties - to that end you need variation for the process to work on.

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Exactly what my husband and I were telling each other earlier today. No idea who to vote for in November. Anyone up to set up a new party?! It could only be better than the current choices.

Re-deposit guarantees - some of our deposits matured yesterday, wondering what to do with them now. I'm not quite sure a bundle of cash under (or sewn into!) the mattress is the best solution.

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A new party has been set up recently. The Conservative Party was started by Colin Craig who ran for Mayor of Auckland in 2010.  I personally like what they have to say compared to the other parties but they lack detail at the moment and without a massive campaign I don't think they can gain any relevant traction for this election.  Unfortunately I don't think NZ can wait another 3 years.

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Unfortunately I don't think NZ can wait another 3 years.

I agree NZ can't wait another 3 years, but I am not counting on the next government lasting a full term.

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however he is way to right wing for me....and ive not seen any evidence he would be an improement.

"I don't think NZ can wait another 3 years." but that is exactly what will happen....voters are only cerned with what happens to thier wallets...Lange got in and had a disaster to deal with....at some stge it will take teh euiv or worse and the outcome wont be very good....

 

regards

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Jeez steven....are you saving the ohs and the vees for a rainy day...and what's with their being thier....oh jeez oh dear what the hell is teh euiv  and wont has a ' in it.

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You must be getting into Willy's ribs now Steven given the personal attacks about your spelling. Keep up the good work as 'Monitor Evaluator':

http://www.belbin.com/rte.asp?id=8

.. and keep an eye on Wolly's spelling, he's not prefect in that area, just like mist of us.

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Hello Les...have they woken you up at the rest home...shouldn't you be gumming your Kornies.

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uh.....have you listened to the Green's?  laughable.....pork barrel politics at its worst....

NZF? Whinnie the biggest pork barreller of the lot?

Dunne?

Act, no not seriously....

Whats left?

regards

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I am not disagreeing, but repeated from a couple of comments above:

What happens if all voters voted for none of them?

Good thought, but voters aren't that much smarter than politicians, so 60+% will vote with the crowd and the media spin. National will still claim to have a mandate, but stronger minor parties might encourage more membership and participation in politics - and hopefully encourage some completely new political parties to emerge. Possibly even ones that are not simply self serving "losers".  

I like the principle of natural selection applied to political parties - to that end you need variation for the process to work on.

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I wouldn't mind if finance companies were included too - it'd help to minimize investment risk.

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For once I agree with English.  The Gaurantee scheme underwrites irresponsible bank behaviour.  I was in Westpac bank the other day doing something on behalf of one of my children.  In passing they were pressing us to consider buying a house on 5% deposit.  I have heard them described as drug pushers.  I am inclined to agree.  

The Government should be searching for other methods of punishing shareholders and managment  of banks who get any where near requiring Government help.  Should bank managers be licensed and loose this for irresponsible behaviour?  If a government has to bail out a bank (as they enevitably always will, if required) , should the shareholders imediately loss their share value and only receive 50% of the residual value without interest, say 5 years after it is up and running again?

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If I am not mistaken the vast majority of bank/finance company irresponsible behaviour took place PRIOR to the institution of the deposit protection scheme (ie in the period 2003-2008).

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True, except for SCF, and it would be interesting to see analysis on what part the flood of protected deposits played in that.  Taking the contary view (now) you could argue that the Govt will in reality stand behind the banks: so it may as well charge for this. It really comes back to the point that history has proved and continues to prove that banks can't be trusted to regulate themselves sensibly so we need some big sticks to beat them into line.  The really worrying thing is that similar comments could be directed at practically all governments.  I don't know how you solve that one?  Elections don't work, infact I think they make it worse.

As an aside how does it work with the Australians gauranteeing the banks, while we have largely Australian banks.  Does their gaurantee cover the NZ banchs of the banks?

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Unfortunately, it doesn't.

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The SCF collapse was certainly aided, if not caused, by the flood of deposits seeking a high return AND a Government guarantee. The bright boyz at SCFwere buying up dodgy loans as fast as they could - failing property development in the main. Moral hazard in extremis.

Get rid of this foolish guarantee ASAP, let the failures fail. One look at the ongoing disaster in Ireland tells you all you need to know.

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I always thought of the GG as the ambulance at the bottom of the hill, without a safety net depositors flee,  options are limited and often a taxpayer prop is better than wholesale bankruptcy and a defaltionary spiral putting more institutions at risk.

  WE need to ask our representatives and those in charge of bank security (Bollard) how they let us get in this situation and what they intend to do about it.

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Fair comment AJ, trouble is the cliff (debt/credit) is the highest it's ever been and the lemmings gathered at the top more numerous than ever. I don't think the ambulance can handle it.

The banks are incentivised to create credit so that's what they do and have done to excess for forty years. We are now at the point where servicing this debt is a huge burden to households and Governments around the world. Credit can no longert expand and the true ponzi nature of our financial system is exposed. Just at the time (not coincidentally) the Boomer bulge is relying on rentier type income for their retirement.

Transferring the cost of the inevitble collapse onto Governments is not an answer, that's just keeping the debt alive but with a differant debtor - Ireland anyone?

Wholesale bankruptcies are messy but probably inevitable, bankrupt governments a complete disaster.

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"...a strong enough position for it (the govt) to go ahead..." sure there is and it will remain strong right up to the day after the election...'when the truth will out'

Let's face it...what incentive is there to save in a bank account that has absolutely NO protection at all....not one bloody dollar is secure...and all the while Bill "inflation is good" English is making sure the RBNZ allows the dollar to be eaten away by debasement...how much is the dollar down since November 08....? Let's ask Bernard

Why deposit a large sum in a bank in NZ and risk seeing it go "pooof" when you can open an account in aus and be protected......?

English has NO OPTION but to extend the same guarantee as that across the ditch.

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Does Australia know something about their Banks that we don't?

Isn't KiwiBank government guaranteed through NZ Post?

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Maybe they do - Aussie business confidence collapsed in August:

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/business-confidence-colla…

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Plus

  • worrys about their two speed ecomony (imbalances between mining sector and the rest of the economy)
  • signs of unemployment rising
  • resulting in further stress on their housing bubble which is already struggling to remain aloft

All of which means bad news for their banks and our banks.

Does the Australian guarantee cover the subsidiaries/branches?  If so then NZ won't need it's own guarantee.

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Yes Meh, I wondered that too. If it doesn't cover it's subsidiaries/branches then I would doubt it would cover those foreigners who put their money into Aus accounts for the purpose of the guarantee. I would want a guarantee that the Australian Govt would pay me, a NZer, out if their Banks defaulted and the Govt gurantee was called up

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Patricia...no worries...!   Your Kiwibank deposit is as safe as the loans they made to the overheated property market supported by the cheaper as she goes RBNZ near zirp game.

While I doubt it will be allowed to go "tits up" you can probably expect to have your deposit frozen...just as happened to the psis when Piggy said..."Shhhhhhite"

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OZ banks, no....its just gross incompetance all round....but as long at the voter and indeed journalists are to lazy / useless to pull them up on such things they will get away with murder...

Kiwibank, yes I think its back stopped...

regards

 

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Love the headline "Govt still on track to get rid of little-used deposit guarantee scheme at end of year". 

Little used !!!!  SCF????

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To be fair to Alex, the extended scheme (October 2011) was not used except for Equitable.

SCF is a biggie, but not as big as the big banks...

cheers

Bernard

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In a word, laughable.....and of course when it all goes to custard again the Govn will have to jump in again and backstop them or there will be massive bank runs.

So what we really need is a perm levy....um...no...oops that doesnt work either.....moral hazard.  So seperating off retail banking and add some stiff jail time options for the CEOs....that might sharpen their act...

regards

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The scheme is little-used at the moment, and not by the banks at all. The SCF failure was under the old scheme, not the current one.

Cheers

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The companies that have deposits guaranteed under the extended Crown guarantee, which expires on December 31, are Heartland NZ (including PGG Wrightson Finance which it has just bought), Wairarapa Building Society and F&P Finance. The latter two stopped offering guaranteed investments some time ago.

The only company to go belly up with deposits guaranteed under the extended scheme has been Equitable Mortgages. It had about 6,000 secured debentureholders who were owed NZ$192.3 million when the plug was pulled last November. The receiver says the taxpayer faces an as yet unspecified shortfall  - http://www.interest.co.nz/property/54913/despite-its-ceos-prediction-eq…

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It's one of those sureal moments where the depositor, who is the tax payer, feels he needs a guarantee from the government who gets it's money from the tax payer.

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If you are going to guarantee deposits you have to guarantee deposits in all institutions which meet sensible criteria ( probably investment grade credit rating ) or you will precipitate a run on any non guaranteed institution and probably cause a loss for its depositers which might not otherwise have occurred. Hardly fair.

Interesting to know if the aussie guarantee applies to non residents and to deposits in currency other than AUD. I dont think many New Zealand retail depositers will want to take an exchange risk with their hard earned. If they were all that keen they would already be chasing higher yields in Aussie.

 

 

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FYI, have just added in another section with links to Gareth's articles on Open Bank Resolution - how the state would treat a failed bank in NZ.

Cheers

Alex

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Either way, the responsible NZer will pay if the banks run into trouble - either through government-sanctioned tax-payer funded bailouts or through losing their bank deposits if the banks suddenly close their doors one day. We're always screwed. 

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Winding the clock back a bit....regarding SCF..Can anyone please tell me

am I correct in my understanding that the retail deposit guarantee scheme

would not be applied if there was any evidence of fraud.

So there was evidence of fraud as probably many would have suspected

right at the outset.

Question begs for me if the above is correct.... why the unusual haste

to pay out the depositors prior to carrying out any enquiries??

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A very good question but one that Bill English would prefer you not to ask, and to which he is very unlikely to provide a credible answer. A royal commisssion might provide such an answer, but that is not going to be allowed either.

We keep being told we have little or no corruption in N.Z. - I presume to keep up confidence.

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