Here are my Top 10 links from around the Internet at 10 to 2 pm, brought to you in association with New Zealand Mint for your reading pleasure.
I welcome your additions and comments below, or please send suggestions for next year's Top 10s at 10 via email to bernard.hickey@interest.co.nz. I'll pop any surplus suggestions I get into the comment stream.
This is my last Top 10 for 2010. Best holiday wishes to you all. Many thanks to NZ Mint for helping to make this possible every day. A usually enjoyable rod for my own back. I'm back on January 24. Las Vegas here I come. Las Vegas doesn't appear thrilled about it. cheers
1. Now there's a Christmas present - This is a case of only in America. Cerberus Partners is giving out discounts on guns that its Remington Arms division makes to its clients and staff, NYTimes' dealbook reports. Better than a bottle of wine or a wall calendar?
The attached flier noted that the offer applied bolt-action rifles, repeating shotguns and .22 caliber rimfire rifles. A quick check of the Remington program’s Web site shows an average discount of about 33 percent.
So if one were considering, say, the Model 870 Express Shurshot pump-action shotgun , expect to pay about $371.14 instead of the manufacturer’s suggested retail price of $553.94.
2. This is just not sustainable - Almost 200,000 New Zealand students received a student loan last year after the number after the number joining the scheme rose 11.3% to a record high 198,723, Stats NZ reports.
The number of tertiary students who borrowed in a year through the student loan scheme increased 11.3 percent in 2009 (up 20,211) to reach 198,723 borrowers. This is the largest increase in the number of borrowers since the beginning of the scheme. The number of students who received a student allowance increased 25.4 percent in 2009 (up 16,368), to reach 80,703 allowance recipients, the largest increase recorded in the allowance data series, which started in 1999.
The increase in the number of students who borrowed or received an allowance in 2009 is due to a greater proportion of students accessing loans and allowances. This reflects the ongoing impact of the interest-free loans policy introduced in 2006, as well as an increase in the number of students enrolled in tertiary education.
3.Is doomsday approaching in the US 'muni' market?- Meredith Whitney, the analyst who caused/predicted the meltdown in US banking stocks in late 2008 has now warned that the US municipal (local city and state government) bond market is set for a meltdown as they get ready to declare bankruptcy. Felix Salmon at Reuters has the story.
4. Perhaps not a coincidence - Bloomberg reports investors are pulling money out of their mutual bond funds in the United States at a great rate of knots.
5. A whole lot of cars - Bloomberg reports there were a record 33,000 cars registered in Beijing last week, bringing the total in the capital city to 4.76 million. It is now the largest car market in the world. Now the problem is congestion...
6. How the hedge fundies live - Business Insider Blackstone Capital and its boss Stephen Schwarzman are renowned as one of the biggest of the private equity funds in New York. They held a little party last week. Here's a few of the highlights.
The PE giant hired out the ENTIRE museum. The main event took place in the Sackler Wing - home to the Egyptian relics. Steve Schwarzman - in an orange Hermes tie - shook hands at the door. There were year-end prizes and a sweet raffle: One winner went home with a trophy and a $10,000 check; a raffle winner scored a trip to Vancouver; and someone else is scheduling in a vacation in Curaçao.
There was a huge multilayered cake, which had miniature landmarks from each city where Blackstone has offices, sitting on top of it.
One of the little replicas on the cake was emblazoned with the word: ACCOUNTABILITY.
7. How a Euro crisis might play out - Scott Minerd of Guggenheim Investments looks at the potential for an Irish bank run and how that might spread to Europe. HT Zerohedge.
The Irish banking system is literally experiencing a run on its banks. According to the most recent banking update from the Central Bank of Ireland, total deposits in Irish banks declined more than 5 percent (28 billion euros) between August and October alone.
Year-over-year, deposits declined 10.5 percent, and foreign investors are pulling their money out at an even faster rate of just over 20 percent per year. If the October data was that brutal, I cringe at the thought of what the November and December numbers may reveal. Even more disconcerting, domestic deposits have begun to contract. It’s one thing for foreign depositors to lose confidence, but now even the domestic deposit base is losing faith.
8. How Basel III got watered down - Bloomberg has an excellent long article detailing what happened during the Basel III process and how banks managed to fight off more regulation and tougher capital rules. They have been watered down to such an extent as to be useless any time in the near future.
The Bankers won.
Good luck to us.
We'll need it.
The committee’s most significant achievement, members say, an agreement to increase the amount of capital banks need to hold, won’t go into full effect for eight years. Other measures that regulators had hoped would prevent future crises -- liquidity standards, a capital surcharge on the biggest lenders and a global resolution mechanism for failing firms -- were postponed, allowing banks to escape the toughest rules that would force them to change the way they do business.
Banks carried out a yearlong campaign to blunt international regulations, arguing that efforts to rein them in would curb lending and impede economic recovery. The lobbying effort was led by the Institute of International Finance, which represents more than 400 financial firms around the world and is chaired by Josef Ackermann, Deutsche Bank AG’s chief executive officer.
Ackermann and other IIF members wrote hundreds of letters to the Basel committee, met with regulators and addressed forums from Seoul to Washington. In June, the group published a report estimating that the proposed capital rules would result in 9.7 million fewer jobs being created and erase 3.1 percent of global economic growth -- estimates the Basel committee later challenged.
Banks also reached out to their home regulators, arguing that some rules would disadvantage them more than other nations’ lenders. That helped draw the battle lines inside the Basel committee, according to an account pieced together from interviews with half a dozen members .
9. Totally Goooooaaaaaalllllll video. HT NZKoz.
10. Totally Christmassy video - Courtesy of some clever possums who spend way too much time online. Bit like me...
130 Comments
1) I would rather have a bottle of wine.
Do you read these guys Bernard?
#1 - Nice, I already have one Remmington, but you can never too many guns:) Might also become necessary going forward.
#2 - :-P, but I did start in 2008. The surge in numbers last year actually saved the financial position of my institution, that had just restructured because of losses.
Or a 4% pay rise back dated to July.
Merry Christmas to everyone.
Here's something to lift the spirits after the ugly GDP result. Mish get's stuck into the Aussies:
"Victorian Employers Chamber of Commerce and Industry yesterday called for a stimulus-like package to help ailing retailers.
Major store bosses claim Australia is experiencing a retail recession, with the quietest and slowest Christmas shopping period in 20 years.
Rising utility bills, mortgage rates and rents have decimated families' disposable incomes, forcing many retailers to start Boxing Day sales one month in advance in a bid to entice shoppers.
Harvey Norman boss Gerry Harvey said there would be "blood on the streets" in the retail sector because business is so bad, the worst since the recession of the early 1990s.
"It's a crisis, the worst in 20 years," he said.
Mish "Sales are flat and Australian merchants are screaming. Watch what happens when sales drop 10%. Inquiring minds might be wondering how stores can be struggling so much. The answer is a massively overbuilt retail sector and stores are struggling to meet their monthly nut. The same thing happened in the US.
Look for a wave of bankruptcies, vacancies, and a huge commercial real estate bust to go along with the residential housing bust. That was point number six in Ten Economic and Investment Themes for 2011
6. Property Bubble Bursts Wide Open in Australia and Canada
Australia, having largely avoided the global recession runs out of luck this time around. Look for the Australian economy to fall into outright recession. Look for Canada to slow dramatically as its property bubble pops. The US property bubble is much further progressed, by years, than Australia, Canada, and China. This matters immensely.
On April 18, 2008 I wrote Shopping Center Economic Model Is History. 2 years and 8 months later, Australia is about to find out the same thing.
Look for Australia's "retail recession" to become a full blown recession."
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/12/retail-recession-hits-australia.html
"...Christchurch....a city that already has the most retail space per head of any Australasian city...(to add more!)...The Styx Centre project, which would be almost as big as Westfield Riccarton,( would add) 45,000 square metre complex next to the Northwood Supa Centa."
Looks like New Zealand is ahead of even Aussie! Do we go 'pop' before or after them?! But I guess whenever we do, it will just provide more 'opportunities' for Olly Newland.....
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3125720/Rezoning-agreed-for-145m-Christchurch-mall
Wasn't it just 12 months or so , ago , that a mega mall project for Harewood was abandoned ?
Merry Christmas , St. Nick . ............ You'll be busy ! Alotta poperty spruikers around here are praying for pumps , to blow up the bubble a little more .
I haven't found any internet / overseas shopping figures this year.
Anybody buying online these days?
Hey, Hugh! It's not 'me' that wide of the mark I'm just quoting verbatim from the captioned article, and because it's in the papers, it must be right ~ right?! However from personal observation (I lived in the vicinity until a year ago) building a giant shopping centre, next to an existing giant shopping centre looks a strange decsision to me. But I guess because it's on reputedly poinsonous ex-orchard land, there's not too much else they can do with it? You're from Chch ~ You see competition; I see added capcity to an already over saturated retail mall market.
Aussie banks are running out of 'greater fools'..............
Westpac drops mortgage lending standardshttp://www.unconventionaleconomist.com/2010/12/westpac-drops-mortgage-lending.html
In terms of the bond holders getting a court order to raise taxes....isnt this the (or part of the) issue....ie no voter will take responsibility for their State.....also havt the tea party'ists just cut taxes but cant actually cut services?
Getting the court to do the Pollies dirty work sounds like a great get out of jail card to me......
Anyway...happy Xmas all!
regards
What gets me with all this kick the can down the road and water down the rules is, sooner or later, and right now its very much sooner I think that game will stop....
I think 2011 is shaping up for a very bad year myself.....anyone still in anything but cash is a fool IMHO....
regards
Have you noticed? The new word for recession is recovery. Ho ho ho.
Merry Christovmas , gang .
See you on January 24 , when the gloomsterationalysing Hickeysterical gets back from Lost Vegas . .............. Unless before then one or some of the "Chicken-Little" stories he's been peddling all of 2010 actually happens in the mean-while ................. As if...... !
[ Bernard : Remember to pack your medication , the Anti-Hickeystamines , guy ]
And the one lesson that we all learnt from 2010 is : YOU CAN'T LOSE WITH PROPERTY , MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steven, NZ will have some positives in 2011 so don't lose the festive spirit just yet.
eg According to Martin Sneddon already there are 85,000 confirmed overseas visitors to RWC staying an average of 23 days, and it is early days yet.
Oh, that's what RWC CEO Martin Sneddon says? It must be true then!
The RWC "bonanza" is a pathetic fantasy, akin to the laughable hype of the America's Cup.
These white elephant sporting events cost a fortune to stage and earn so little it's a joke.
"BUT IT'S GOING TO PUT NEW ZEALAND ON THE MAP!"
Desperate stuff.
This 85,000 fans needs to be put in context. We usually have 2million plus tourists a year or about 130,000 per 23 days. These non RWC tourists will not be keen to come during the cup because of likely encounters with drunk rugby fans and well flagged hospitality industry rorts. Half of Auckland think they're going to make their fortune off the 40,000 fans projected to go there. Pure fantasy.
Just like the 1990 Commonwealth games, where untold numbers of people concluded that they would become wealthy beyond their wildest dreams, completely ignoring the fact that every such event has always lost far more than it's ever earned.
Muzza the RWC will only add a bit to the hotels and cafes. The majority of NZers are really doing it tough at present as their cost of living expenses such as insurances,utility bills,food,rates bills and other basic costs of living go up steadily but their incomes are not keeping pace with those expenses. What we need in NZ is more jobs that offer higher income levels for the employees. Until that happens what we are experiencing now in the way of asset values gradually depreciating and retail/small businesses struggling is just going to keep happening. The politicians seem to have no idea about what it is like out there in the real world where people do not get $100k plus salaries,free travel,expense allowances and gold plated super. We need some leadership in this country. They will now go on holiday for a few weeks while the country slips further into a state of recession. People need to get out there and spend a bit more and keep the small businesses going that employ a lot of NZers. As more and more of them go to the wall more and more people will start wanting benefits and that is not good for the nation. The politicians seem like to be acting like rabbits caught in car head lights at night. They know the economy is struggling but no one is talking about it or doing or saying anything that will encourage people to get some confidence and start the machine up again.
ex Agent, yes agree it's tough in retailing at present. The signs are mixed but there are some to suggest we will get through 2011 not so bad, time will tell I suppose
Muzza I had a talk to my mate in appliance retailing today and he said that TV prices have got so ridiculous he had to sell some at an 18% per cent loss on cost price yesterday to match two of his competitors. Now he has deep pockets and has been in the game for a long time but this current trend in NZ where things are so tough retailers have to sell items at a loss to give them some cashflow and time to survive is not a good state of affairs. Some businesses will not survive as they can only do this for so long. Staff will lose their jobs and want benefits. This puts more pressure on the tax payers. It is all very well for the punters to go into shops and screw the retailers but in doing that in NZ all we are doing is making it harder for the economy as a whole. Retailers like everyone else need to make a reasonable profit to cover their many overheads otherwise many will shut their doors for good. Retail has been tough since the 1st of October 2010 when gst went up. Hopefully normal trading conditons will apply soon and some of those who are near to closing for good will survive as they offer much needed jobs that will not be easily replaced.
2) We have a great NZeducation system, but no decent NZjob opportunities for the national workforce and as one of many negative consequences - youth unemployment and students numbers are rapidly growing. The result and subsequent costs are massive - in fact in the billions for the taxpayers.
Minister Hide, Brownlee and Joyce stop importing most everything and legislate for full employment and better jobs preferably in the production sector. This could easy be achieved, allocating contracts for NZcompanies to build infrastructure needs in sectors such as Telecommunication, Energy, Transport, etc.
Ministers especially now in difficult times a proactive government must lay the basics, encouraging innovation, entrepreneurial skill, feeding the private sector, so the free market, export opportunities, but also the national security are maintained.
Small countries have to think small, but with big ideas - a "100%pure NZeconomy"
Too much hand ringing and focus on negatives, there are some real positives for the coming year as well, and our big earners, agriculture and tourism are poised to have good years with all the flow-on effects. And if we cut back on imports a bit, all the better.
Re. 2011 : Crucial to NZ's future is the election . ...... Will National finally take the axe to government spending , or will they continue the seriously dopey policies of Michael Cullen ?
We know Labour's platform , and that is enough to rule them out , as a party of fiscal responsibility . ............ Another 3 years Goofy , 3 more years , pal .
Crucial is if the government can translate the complex correlation in worldwide events/ situation into the best outcome for the nation. Listening to the “Parliamentarian Kindergarten” weekly - I doubt.
The government should spend money wiser on production industries (cut imports/ red tape), so the money circulates within the country and supports quality employment.
Scrap the minimum wage , Walter . That idiot piece of legislation is depriving young people of jobs . Give them a chance to step onto the bottom rung of the career and financial ladder . Get them off idley wandering the streets . Let them have the employment opportunity which is currently denied to so many ....
...... And those twits the Green Party wanna raise the minimum wage to $ 15 / hour . Well meaning , but utterly wrong .
The way they are going - Agriculture & Tourism are mutually rather biting their arses - both without a long term future.
So true , Walter ! ........ Way back in the 1980's then P.M. , David Lange predicted agriculture's demise , by labelling it a " sunset industry " ........ And if the world's population , which has greatly increased since then , agree to go onto a diet , ............ That prediction may well come true . .. No future in farming , no siree , Jim-Bob...........None ! Never has been , never will be .
... Politicians sure can crystal-ball gaze with accuracy , can't they !
Muzza I would love to know what positives you can see out there in the NZ economy at present that would potentially benefit the average New zealander which is about ninety something percent of the population who live on the average wage or just above and who are facing rising costs in the such basic areas as food,petrol,utilities and alike.In the Sunday Star Times today it talks about people still going to Australia looking for better incomes who are renting out their homes as they don't want to sell them and those who have bought a new home and are renting out their old home hoping the market is going to improve. These people are dreaming. The current economic conditions in NZ are here to stay for the 2011 year at least. People should sell now. I struggle to find one redeeming feature in the economy at present that will stabilise the housing market let alone turn it around. As one very successful agent said to me last week the buyers have got horrible to deal with.They know they have the upper hand and they have got arrogant and difficult to deal with. This is the new norm. Asset values and incomes for many dropping back while the excessive debt the country built up over the mid 2000's is gradually dealt with.
Is Aussie any better, ex-agent? I have relatives over here, in Auckland, for Christmas and one ( must be 40?) who is a R/E agent in Brisbane, has moved back in with her in-laws as "the market is a disaster" over there at the moment. Apparently the property market in a lot of S/E Queensland (The Gold Coast etc.) is awash with 'investment properties' where the investor wants their money back out ! Where are the buyers?.... Perhaps arriving from NZ?
Hi there Nicholas, do you know if they are all built to the same standards as the rubbish over here? That is, do they have value at any price?
There was a Time magazine article some months ago which talked of the nonsence of an economy that there were at least 2 economies at work. Those in one are saying 'what recession?', those in the other have long been struggling. International travel is up thriughout the world. It's like that here in NZ. Today it's reported 1 in 4 Kiwis plan to take an overseas holiday in next 6 mths. There are a huge influx of big spenders coming our way during RWC- already 85,000 confirmed visitors planning an average stay of 23 days. And it's erly days yet. I know of many Kiwis who have thought nothing of buying tickets at hundreds of dollars, one colleague's father (small businessman) has purchased $14,000 worth. The world is crying out for products including agricultural products from NZ. Our dollar to the Australian will attract a huge number of Aussy tourists and helps our manufacturing make its way in the Australian market, our biggest export market. Interest rates will stay down for much of next year which means no property collapse, true a big out-migration to Australia is a negative but there were over 19,000 Kiwis who migrated back from Australia this year. All the reinsurance monies from overseas will be at work rebuilding from the Chch earthquake.(161,200 claims, 4th biggest ever worldwide for an earthquake)
I'm not saying there aren't negative factors, and that everything is fine, what I am saying is too many on this site seem to feed off each other highligting negative factors and don't keep a more balanced perspective. The NZ government debt is low by world standards, true household debt is high but NZ has a high personal ownership of property compared to most European countries so quite a lot of debt is probably in assets. Some delevereging is underway to get this down now
Good try Muzza...can't see your fluff stopping property values from dropping. As you say, household debt is high..be honest...it's dangerously high and then you go and spoil it all with spin about property ownership levels making it ok...fair go Muzza....somewhere along the line you left out the FACT that property in NZ is seriously unaffordable....why did you do that Muzza?....and then to put a gloss on the turd you claim NZ debt is low by world standards but you FAIL to note that English is borrowing 1.5 billion a month now and that debt level is going to be above 30% of GDP and will likely keep rising...
You also fail to point out that the sceptics on this site have been proved right with the latest GDP data release. Perhaps you blame us for the shrinking economy!
Tell us what will stop English from having to borrow 1.5Billion every month Muzza....we need a good laugh!
C'mon Wolly, it's Christmas, cut the man some slack. Mr Muzza is just trying to get a grip on things like the rest of us. I agree with you that NZ Inc is teetering on the brink waiting for the fallout from the China/Australia construction/house price ponzi bubble mega-crash, but let's party while we can eh? After all the RWC is the most important event in NZ history is it not?
I agree with Muzza's desire to find the good stuff, the things that will do well. Personally I think there will be wonderful bargains in NZ any day now. Just hope I don't get hit by flying debris.
According to www.christchurchquakemap.co.nz , the garden city has had a 4.9 shake at 10:30 a.m. And that brings Canterbury to 4115 quakes since the big one , back in September .
Reckon a few cracks will appear in the Chch housing market , soon !
[ And for anyone who subscribes to the Hickeysterical view that all is woe , armageddon , bubbles , and despair ; have a look at Associated Press's top 10 business stories of 2010 . There was some good mixed amongst the bad . ]
Only 85,000? Didn't I see Martin Sneddon on TV last week saying that they needed 100,000 ticket to be sold just to break even?
Good try Muzza but all the fluff in the world and money from the RWC tourists is not going to trickle down and help the vast majority of New Zealanders who get paid bugger all for their daily endeavours and who borrowed to live beyond their means in the early to mid 2000's when times were better. You only have to talk to my mate who is a major player in the NZ home appliance retail industry and you get an idea of where the economy currently is. He was at a meeting in Auckland in November where the top 10 players met and to a person retail is currently the worst in 20 years. Since then some shops have closed down. And one of them was owned by a family who have been in the game for two generations. This is one christmas where we need the politicians to get off their chuffs and get back to work early like the rest of the country and start talking about how they are going to get this sick economy of ours going better. In the opinion of some pretty successful people every day they delay leading us forward is just going to make it harder to get it going better. Watch out for more retail outlets to close in the new year as their cash flow drys up. This was not necessary but when you have politicians leading the country like Goff English Key and co who have never run their own business you realise why they are incapable of getting us back on the right track. My friend in applicances was facing tough cash flow conditions. What did he do. He reduced his stock, tightened up on credit,chased up the debtors and reduced some overheads. His landlord has come to the party by dropping his rent 15%. Why don't the politicians run the country like a business. Because to a person they have never run their own business. Key has no idea. He might have been successful but someone else paid the bills for the bank and paid his salary. When you run your own company and put your own capital at risk you make sure it works.Politicians seem more interested in their superannuation and their travel perks.
More then 200 days until the RWC and never before have 365 days told us humans so much about our future then in 2011. The accumulation and acceleration of world events on many fronts are staggering.
Muzza says:
There are a huge influx of big spenders coming our way during RWC- already 85,000 confirmed visitors planning an average stay of 23 days.
Muzza, I for my business planning do not expect big spenders and 85’000 confirmed visitors staying for av. 23 days. But I have an emergence plan in case they are coming - spending big. The world changed forever isn't negative, but balanced reality.
Many businesses "invest" money for the RWC, but could be bankrupt by end of October 2011.
You old curmudgeon , Walter ! ......... But I see your point , a magical 6 weeks out of 52 won't make our fortunes .
But if Ritchie , Daniel and the lads win the RWC , who cares ........... Party hard ! ......
........ Those fecking Aussie banks can just pray that we eventually sober up , and resume paying the mortgages ............ Hic !
Yes - new parts of the central city have been closed off. New debris falling, quake magnitudes were / are low but centered close to central city and quite shallow. Authorities moved quickly.
"going better"....fat chance while the banks have a free hand to pillage the economy of what little wealth there is.....that's the heart of the problem.....banks porking the property bubbles with keyboard credit in an orgy of greed to be the dominant mortgage holder and get to farm the families of what pisspoor incomes they might have.
There will be bugger all improvement until we get to a point where the bulk of people give the banks the umph.
Didn't Galbraith say something about fraud being a strange crime in that the victim actually felt better off while the crime was being committed....
Most of us here regard you as a one-shot spinmeister, Hugh. Most of us regard developers as we regard used-car salesmen, and floggers of real estate, ie; as parasitic.
Key is in posession of this report:
http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/ParlSupport/ResearchPapers/4/6/a/00PLEco…
and you should read this too:
http://www.theperfectcurrency.org/energy-currency.htm
There was an interesting interview with Helen Clark this morning, which proved she (and she has an intellect that is 'up there') doesn't get it either.
All of you 'growth is good, growth is forever' exponents are deluded. There is no difference between you, Key or Clark from my point of view - you all have to re-fill your tanks, and every time you do so, you disprove your own regime.
Is it denial, or dumbness?
You're not alone, luckily for your continued credibility. McCarthy failed, as Bernard has continued to fail, and most media still do, to ask the obvious question. Joanne Black got close, when she opined that "Maybe there's too many people in the world" but she hasn't followed that orphan thought up. Far from it.
Many - Finlay Macdonald and Patric O'meara come to mind - actually choose not to investigate, and (in my experience anyway) tend to focus on the messenger.......
Not that that (media failure) forgives folk who seek to undermine democratic social structures for personal gain, masquerading as care for first home buyers. If you were sincere in that, you'd have followed up and asked me about my $50.000, 135 sqm structure, but you didn't - that's not really your agenda, is it?
What you have to do, is accept that there are real and needed-to-be-set limits (environmental, physical, and most of all, future-proofing) then work around them. It's the mature approach. Throwing toys and blame-shifting, is not.
Steady on old chap. Hugh just has a specific area of concern, as do you.
Your concern with resource limits is perfectly valid except that since the start of the Industrial Revolution mankind has been able to largely dodge the bullets because the rate of innovation has been sufficient to support a larger population. Whilst there is no guarantee this will continue I would point out that your worries about peak oil may be overly doomy. I say this because I grew up in England in the 1970s when the world was about to end in nuclear war over oil. Thankfully it didn't that time.
On the subject of innovation, I take it you are aware the US has developed technology that gives them 200-300 years supply of natural gas from shale rocks. This has happened in the last few years. Innovation by its very nature cannot be predicted but it taps the creativity that is an essential part of humanity.
I for one would love to hear more about your $50.000, 135 sqm structure.
Rw - thanks for the politeness.
Your comments are (with respect) linear. In the '70's, there were say 3 billion people, using less per-head of the fossil fuels. There are now 7 billion, heading for 9/10, all using or wanting to use more. That's a more-than-doubling.
Exponential growth is described in terms of 'doubling'.
http://www.mnforsustain.org/bartlett_arithmetic_presentation_long.htm
It doesn't matter much how much is there, the peak happens pretty much then or thenabouts:
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/bartlett/
a relevant-to-Hugh excerpt:
"MY ANALYSIS, BASED ON GEOLOGICAL ESTIMATES OF THE TOTAL WORLD RESOURCE OF PETROLEUM, SUGGESTS THAT WORLD PETROLEUM PRODUCTION WILL PEAK AROUND THE YEAR 2004 AND THEREAFTER WILL START ITS INEVITABLE DECLINE TOWARD ZERO."
(he was a year out.....)
More:
"The related terms, 'sustainable' and 'sustainability' have become popular and are used to describe a wide variety of activities which are generally ecologically laudable. At the same time, the term 'compromise' is heard more frequently because the needs of the environment often are in conflict with the needs of humans. A brief examination of the question of compromise shows that a series of ten compromises, each of which saves 70% of the remaining environment, results in the saving of only 3% of the environment.'"
Then there is the little problem of EROEI: this is as good a primer as I've found:
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/8/2/114144/2387
This is why we're into deep=water plays (Gulf of Mexico, Brazil) extreme mining, water-cuts (Ghawar et al) - the profit energy we get after expending energy to extract energy, is dropping.
That's the crux of it. We peaked volumetrically, essentially in 2005. We may top that in a bump, but volumetric supply is flat, and will only decline thereafter.
http://www.crudeoilpeak.com/?p=2060
Quality (reducing EROEI) will negate any volumetric splurges. This includes your shale-to-gas, shale-to-oil, lignite-to-oil, etc. Nothing measures up to a near-surface gusher right by your customer (Texas, anyone?) and they're all gone.
"200-300 years". Brownlee makes the same kind of comment - it's linear. It is always qualified by "at current rates of consumption" (or it would be a meaningless statement) but that qualifier is forgotten, cranially, media - ally, almost immediately. They hang onto the time-frame, but advocate exponential growth on the back of it - somehow expecting the finite resource to last the same time......
Those who thought it was all over in the '70's, didn't do their homework, but they were right about the problem. This is nothing to do with 'doomy'. I could, for instance, say that because I'm not dead yet, I never will be. That is clearly nonsense. I can say with 100% certainty that (a) I will be some day, and (b) that the day come a day closer every day and (c) that I am more than half-way through. That's not 'doomy', just stating fact. What diffo when applying it to the using up of a finite resource? Doomy? I don't think so. Just accepting reality.
But where my specific area of concern outranks Hughs, is that his can't continue without mine. No energy, no work (3rd form physics). Less energy, less work. More people/same energy = less work per head. More people/less energy = worse.
Adapting before the problem hits, requires longer vision than 'markets' and indeed politial election cycles, give us. One thing is for sure though - approaching that point with more people, more energy-requiring infrastructure, is stupid.
So too, is the proposing of a fiscal bond (although other forms may be acceptable:
http://www.theperfectcurrency.org/energy-currency.htm
The next few years are going to be interesting. Expect debt to be continually kicked upwards and socialised, then expect sovereign defaults. In otherwords, the fiscal system we have evolved on the energy way up, can't work on the way down. It's failure is that it didn't value the finite properly. Failed to factor Natural Capital into opportunity costs.
Seems some here think they can continue that...... there is no excuse for not seeing what is coming, and no excuse for not preparing for it. Which is why I'm occasionally stroppy. I used to debate this stuff, but that was decades ago. They should've learned by now.
I'll give you a tip - cheap land and no rules is not the answer.
I still don't see your position and Hugh's as unreconcileable. Hugh is obviously not saying that changing the planning rules will resolve the issues of resource constraints and the potential for geometric population growth. He is just pointing out that the current system of allocating land use is deeply dysfunctional and to me, soviet in style (5 year plans anyone?).
Auckland's problem is it's third world growth rate, what is it now, 30% in 12 years? I don't have the figures so that is a guess.
The pricing system we have is the best way I know of allocating capital. Sure it is flawed but then democracy can be mob rule too. I have no problem with good regulation but is that what we have?
My hope is that solutions will arise as time goes by. That is what this site is about surely?
Hugh
You have, in part, defined the problem eloquently. What is needed now, is an equally elegant solution. How would you solve the problem?. Unless all the complicit Local Government Instrumentalities are covered by Indemnity Insurance then it would seem at first glance that the cost must "ultimately" be borne by the ratepayers of the municipalities concerned. Unless Central Government decides it is better to share the pain across the nation. In which case the lesson of pain is not learned.
An earlier post referred to the Devoport Borough Council and the Ngataringa Bay "event" and the enormous cost to the local community which was spread over a generation. There was no comment.
Hugh - Apologies if my request was not clear - I was responding to the following two conflicting paragraphs in your post headlined "Leaky Homes Decision"
[quote] The Supreme Court 17 December 2009, with its North Shore decision, confirmed the decisions by the lower Courts, that the responsibility for the $11 - $22 billion (up to possibly 90,000 houses) leaky homes fiasco, lies with local government.[endquote]
[quote] What I would be most interested in learning from (the councils?) is how they intend to .... in meeting their leaky homes responsibilities. Central Government and the long suffering ratepayers, have no intention of wearing these leaky homes costs. Nor should they.[endquote]
Without reading your papers I will assume they address the future rather than the past. The question is, if you contend that Central Government and Ratepayers should not meet the costs (as you appear to) then "what is the solution". Ratepayers have already benefited from the council fees obtained in the original charges, and that carries with it contractual liabilities.
The question remains - How would you solve the problem?
To summarise - your solution is :-
Local Governments should sell all non-core-assets and eliminate waste.
Next question.
Do Local Governments have (say) $15 billion of non-essential-assets available to off-load. Would Local Bodies who dont have a "leaky home" problem be willing to contribute to the over-all pool? Are these assets productive enough to entice "institutional investors" to buy them?
"(b) openning up fringe land supply to ensure no artificial scarcity fringe values and (c) financing infrastructure properly, using the US Municipal Utility District bond financing system as a model,"
Therein lie your problems. Fringe of what, used currently for what, supplying whom?
Let me see, we want to expand city limits (radially, there is no geometric alternative) into farmland (essentially what you find on the peripheries, unless you run into mountains or water.
Let me see - we need the export produce from that farmland, even now it's not enough, given that both out Govt debt is increasing, and our private debt is not being reduced at enough pace.
Let me see - the answer is to encroach on that farmland, with more clusters of non-productive ticky-tacky, at an exponentially-increasing rate (it happens like that, because in those ticky-tacky bedrooms, they make more Hughs). And that will help us how?
We've just been there - doesn't seem to me that keeping the land cheaper would have made the actions any less wrong. All that would have done is make you types relatively richer.
And - if that is the way you advocate, you have to justify how it can keep going. If any advocated system is going to run into limits, there is less hiatus if the brakes are put on early. More tactical options left.
Financing of infrastructure? Name me one piece of same not made from, produced by, or transported by, fossil fuel..
You want to increase what you do, exponentially, you better find an exponentially-increasing supply with an as-good-or-better EROEI.
It may not appear so in NZ, but globally we are there. Topped-out. What has amazed me - and I started counting down to this in 1976 - is how many folk like you just think you can re-start the dead motorbike.
PDK - correct - you cant expand city limits (radially, there is no geometric alternative) into farmland unless you run into mountains or water.
We get to the guts of the problem - explicitly - you cant compare New Zealand to Houston, and you cant compare Auckland to Christchurch, they are geographically different. The solutions must therefore be different. (Use of the word "solutions" is intentional) Christchurch is partially capable of radial expansion, while Auckland is a "corridor" and incapable of radial expansion. Any solution that is workable in Cristchurch or Houston is not a viable solution in Auckland. Statistical averages dont work.
Yes, I was about to chip in with a similar thought from a different angle. Usually with a business you don't approve of you just go elsewhere. This may or may not cause the business you left to change its ways but at least it solves the problem for you.
Are there other more powerful ways to exert pressure? I have already sold my house so my landlord now pays the rates.
Very keen to hear more about your $50k house.....seriously!
PDK is already 'visible'. I think he's avoiding cluttering threads with his own lifestyle.
This used to more obvious to readers when they could click on the author's name and be re-directed, but that system became 'spruikable' I guess.
http://powerdownkiwi.wordpress.com/about/ is a good start. Hope PDK is not annoyed by this.
PDK - my fee in edible form please.
I find it is always advisable to do homework first. Saves looking foolish.
This land was bought as degraded farmland, on Abbotsford Clay formations. That land-use had exascerbated the tendency to slip, and was pulling SH1 with it. Not enough nutrient applied, and poor country anyway - just another story of extraction-to-dustbowl-to-sellup.
2/3 of the land we planted in trees - not for money. The trees suck water from the major slip-plane, which helps slow it's progress, and more importantly, they are a carbon-sink. Planted for that reason in '89 through '94. This before Climate Change became mainstream - we did it on a 'replace the rainforest-or-we're-in-the-shit-globally'. basis.
Entirely altruistically, note. and latterly any carbon-credit potential has been forgone too. We did this not for money, but for everyone. You included, Hugh, whether you have the cranial capacity to appreciate it, or not.
The rest is used in as sustainable a way as possible, several acres of 'return-to-native', for example.
Your comment "Thats a hell of a lot of land required for someone preaching sustainability" is absolute nonsense - according to you (Malthusian claptrap etc), we can expand indefinitely on our finite planet - make your mind up.
I have always been of the view that the planet can support 2-3 billion at subsistence level, and perhaps as few as 1 billion at our current level. Globally, we are a species in overshoot, entirely unsustainable. I have written about that here - pointing out to your anti-evolutionist mate that not all folk could have 60 acres per couple - he didn't understand what I meant - simple arithmetic; acres vs people, go figure! That's your (important) innumerate support base......
Then your idiot comment "what he produces off his land". Actually, that approach is what is buggering up the planet we hold in trust - but you don't think like that, do you? We have a goal of handing it on in better shape than we found it - and what's that worth? Its already had 'produce off it' and been run into the ...ground.... I saw that result, thought about it, and altered the approach. You don't seem to see a problem yet - no wait - I get it - it will be the greenies fault if farms get degraded, for not letting farming happen on Conservation land.... Just another spinmeistery blame-shifting of reality....
Now to your 'affordable land' nonsense: if we agreed to limit population, you wouldn't need to continually expand. Continual expansion of anything, in a finite sphere of operations is unsustainable. So what you do - development - is unsustainable. It's just a matter of working out the 'when'. Affordable is a non-issue. Available indefinitely - now THERE'S a valid yardstick.
Having done the best with the land that we could - in terms of handing it on better, not in terms of $ extracted per acre per year - we turned to setting an example in terms of energy-efficiency - because energy is the big, in fact the only, issue. Everything you do needs it, you cant do anything without it, including live. (you consume about 90 watts just snoozing).
We pushed that envelope, and one of your yardsticks (cost) was a relevant yardstick - minimum cost partially represents munimum material/minimum embedded energy.
Yardsticks were * $50,000 budget (2004-5) inc water, waste and earthworks, but ex labour.
* Self-sufficient in water, energy, food.
We only do about 60% food, all other yardsticks were met.
You bleat on about 'affordable housing for (heartstrings/violins) first home buyers, but I've already done the afforable house bit - and you have made no enquiry. You're not really interested - indeed, according to you, there should be unlimited opportunities to get wealthy anyway - does it ever strike you that your argument is self-defeating?
What you're really about - and it's all you're about - is getting your hands on cheap land, with as little red-tape/limitations as possible, to carve up and flog off for as much as possible. Why not be honest?
'elementary economics' is a man-made construct. It entirely rides piggy-back on a supply of energy - an increasing supply, given that your version of economics needs to grow....... No energy, no activity, economic or not.
You ought to understand that relationship, before believing gurus raving about 'wealth'. Sorry, but science and fact beat religion and belief, every time.
Whether you think it 'important' or not.
If you had taken a survey the afternoon before, most passengers on the Titanic would have said they'd be alive in the morning.
Didn't make them right.
Much better dealing in facts.
Hugh,
having the majority view doew not make it right.
For example, Galileo was found guilty of heresy for his views.
Simon makes my crowd laugh. We sit around at physics lectures, and wonder how someone can be so blind, yet literate.
This is interesting, though:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1&hp
I think hes a bit optimistic, though. He - like so many others, hasn't thought it through.
He's a long way further down the track than some, but.
Agreed on two points - with caveats.
Property prices are a ponzi - to a certain extent. Like oil in mid-2008, there is a lot of speculation, but - like oil - there is an underlying increasing scarcity. I don't care about your claims of miniscule percentages; on a finite plane with exponential growth, the end-game timing is close, regardless of start-point. Think of filling a wine-bottle from the tap - the end-game beats you every time.
Underlying growth in consumption, versus declining EROEI, overtakes your created slack. This is demonstrated in the very small drop in oil demand 2008/9. Commodity prices will reflect scarcity, and the worst price at the margin for whatever the commodity is is, but there is a new twist now - if energy is needed for everything, then the price of energy will influence price, even as its limited supply limits the overall ability to pay.
Think that through carefully - it's another way of expressing what Neville Bennett is saying (I think).... Where that goes is the real poser.
Biofuels were indeed impactive on food, surely you realise that this points out the proximity of farming to it's expansion end-game too? According to you. there should be unlimited displaceable land, and no impact..... :)
They had a bigger problem, though, they were a negative EROEI. The energy you got from them, wasn't more than the energy they took to plant, harvest and process. No dollar value is enough to make you start with more energy and end up with less - so you could have worked out that it was indeed subsidised, from that fact alone.
Biofuels, like hydrogen, lignite (it's one better than peat), electric cars, nuclear, are all grasped-at wild cards in attempt to maintain Business as Usual (which as I point out, is really "business hiatus for the last 200 years, due to cheap energyual")
You have to understand exponential growth, though - take biofuels out completely, and you'll find the food demand already outpaced your breathing-space, same process as above.
Renewables are the only answer, by definition, but not the answer as far as business as usual goes - that's out of the question.
Hence folk like me 'digging a well, that others may drink'.
If all houses were as energy efficient as mine (currently using 3 amps@12 volts - 2 laptops going, radio, sewing-machine, lights, no need for house or water heat), NZ would get by on one Benmore penstock. That would leave enough for electric public transport, personal electric shuttles to it, and even some to aim at our food infrastructure.
Has to be done now, though. Too late when we're competing in the end-game.......
I got there back in the '70's, which is why I find it frustrating at times to still be having this debate...
http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2010-12-27/predictions-2011
neali - easy done.
Most folk follow the band, and the band plays 'growth', so most folk grow - the number of ensuites (how many bums have you got?) the area (how much space can you occupy?) and the shyte they think they need in there. It's all sheep and advertising.
Our house has no studs, no dwangs, needs no 'cavity wall', has no gib.
The plumbing happens within 2 metres (cylinder to shower, all else between), and enters and exits vit the bath cavity - permanently accessable.
The wiring/power is 12 volt, no need for permit or sparky (50v threshold). Skirting-boards are the trunking (nothing hidden in the walls, permanently accessable again).
The outer walls and roof are coolstore (coloursteel/polystyrene/coloursteel) panelling (100mm walls, 125mm roof) with our choice of colours inside and out, from the coloursteel chart. The inner effect is that of a perfect painted gib wall, with a clean groove every 1200mm. And you can use fridge magnets everywhere....
The walls and roof (remember, this is painted finished both sides, insulated) were $16,000, cut to length off our plans, numbered, delivered onsite with every last rivet, flashing, tube of silicone, even the spoutings.
They went up in 42 person-hours - 10.5 hours of me, my partner and the boys. We made it a little complex by using our trees as a portal/pole structure, and going two-storey. Single-storey, this panelling needs no framing.
That's the 'cheap' part. The North wall is of course all glass, and I have a way of fixing double-glazing directly to the posts (it could be to studs) using vertical rebated battens, with down/out/down flashings top and bottom. Saves on frames (doesn't do 'opening', though).
Interior walls are 17mm ply, single-skin, with 100x100 posts every 1200mm (ie where they join) makes incredible bracing, and easy to fix to.
Lighting is all LED, mostly home-made. Shower is a curved sheet of polycarbonate, flashing to the curve of the bath. New cost circa $100.
It's just a matter of thinking outside the square.
Similar product used in America is 'Structural insulated panel' - Don't know pros and cons, though would question its susceptibility to water.
Seems there are a variety of configurations.
e.g.
( no affiliation)
http://www.kingspanpanels.co.nz/productintro.asp (more like PDK's approach)
http://www.thermawise.co.nz/faq.html
The new homes I see locally still seem to be 'unimaginative' in construction - steel framing swapped for wood, sort of like garages, though they do seem to sprout up quite quickly. They are not inexpensive either. The commercial builds seem more imaginative with materials.
Number 6, I've checked RWC ticket sales to date and $166 million sold so far. I predict there will be $200 million sales.That compares with the 2005 British Lions tour with $24 million. It is going to dominate NZ in the second half year. Our big earners of agriculture and tourism are poised to have big years in 2011so it's not going to be so bad here in Aotearoa. Anyway, time will tell
this is a good piece on 2011 - perenial bulls should look elsewhere!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10696710
Terrible...really terrible...and why do so many have so little to spend I ask..where is all the money going...some bugger must be sucking it from the market...who could this swine be...what game are they playing....why are they supported by the govt and Bollard............
Tune in again for the answers to all these questions when we bring you the next episode in............"Who is stealing our country"
With his qualifications, contacts and research I think he knows a bit more about the economy than you Olly. Everyone else is doing fine. Now that is rot Olly. The clear majority of New Zealanders are struggling and that is putting a lot of pressure on benefits,retail,contruction and the service industry. Why did the retailers go into boxing day sale mode in the middle of December. Because the economy is struggling and people have generally shut up shop. Everyone you talk to mentions just who have laid off a number of workers and who is struggling to keep the door open. That is not negative. That is not being gloomy. It is the real world and one Olly does not live in. People like him started the rot in the 1980's when they encouraged people to back them financially and let those poor people down. New Zealanders then got stuck into buying property direct with too much debt attached to it as they were scared of people like Olly losing their hard earned savings. Now we are paying for that debt fuelled buying and the economy is in recession again. Olly you obviously only mix with people who have money. Get out and talk to a few average New Zealanders and you will soon realise they are struggling and they are scared and this is going to take some sorting out.
Don't confuse the sneaky OilyN, with OllyN.
times are certainy tough. As a "high income earner" I saw a pretty good tax cut, yet in the near future most of those gains would have been eaten away - fuel, food and power increases etc.. I'm not quite sure how middle and low income earners are going to cope
In this sort of environment I really can't see how property spruikers can expect rents and house prices to increase
As for Olly N's spruiking of retail property as an investment - just plain deluded
Matt, that's because you think you know what he means. Olly is a cunning old fox with far more experience than most, he is able to effortlessly sort the good stuff from the dross. His experience is hard earned and he deserves his success (as far as I can tell anyway...).
Could I walk in and do your job as well as you? I rather doubt it.
stagflation anyone?
Santa delivers more " dead cat bounce"?...yes?...no?
A simple reality:
Without the abundance of easily tapped 'energy' resources coming on line then EVERY economy in the world will go backwards from here on out. More population is not the answer. More useless unnecessary product production aimed solely to entertain us is not the answer.
This is simple logic people. For now it's over, get use to the word 'decline'
" There has been no real progress made in the economy. In fact, the actions taken by Washington, the U.S. Treasury and the criminal Federal Reserve Bank have assured the effects of this depression will persist for decades".
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article25274.html
This is a good article...isn't it strange how the first sentence seems so appropriate to NZ.
And it leads into this....."mortgage rates will inevitably rise—significantly, which will put downward pressure on housing prices"........the ocr games in NZ will not isolate the NZ market from the above change.
This warning about rates is in an article in the harald today. One thing to ponder...with the aussie govt moving to allow covered bond deals over there....surely the covered bond market becomes saturated with wonnabees and the lenders can pick the eyes from it.....rates for covered bond sales will rise!
There are two trends showing up now in NZ...the first is the deflation trend where families spend less and wait for the sales and buy only what they need....this has brought out the cries for a big spend as if such a thing will bring back the boom times...........the second trend is harder to spot...it's where the low income earning bulk of the country is no longer reading the 'new home' dream advertising or paying attention to the tv adverts of the same....the market for new homes has and still is drying up....peasants are opting to get by with less...less means they see some coin in their pocket at the end of each week....less means looking for an ex rental property in a market flooded with same....less because they are not able to meet the bank demands for having oodles of loot to start with......best of all though....less means the banks are seeing a shrinking market for their mortgage bait.
This explains the return into recession stats although for most the data was not necessary as they knew dam well a state of recession had become permanent.
Now let's deal with the 6 part strategy promise that the export wealth will lead to 170ooo new jobs and flow through the regional towns into the centres as the big spend picks up steam....it's not happening!
The first problem is the fact that much of this export wealth is going directly to the banks that are farming the rural sector.
The second is more psychological in nature....those earning good returns and not serfs to a bank, are opting to stash the cash and maybe even shift the cash offshore. They were prudent people through the bubble and told the banks where to stick the cheap loan money. Now they are preparing for more serious economic problems.....a time when those who have the cash are able to buy the extra land at 'new normal price'.....and the banks do not like it one little bit....and we know why don't we!
Gee Wolly if one did not know better one would think you actually enjoy the prospect of a long and deep recession. The fact that you got up so early today and reeled off three comments shows just how boring and unsatisfied your life must be. Sitting down there in Marlborough in a rental on the dole must be getting to you. You want everyone to live like you. The trouble is that if we have this long hard recession you enjoy the thought of so much it will affect so many innocent people who did nothing to cause it to happen. It could be avoided by people spending just a little more than they currently are and keeping all the small businesses in NZ going. Avoid the shops like the Warehouse which has destroyed businesses and jobs and look after the little fellas who live in your community who employ a few people. I do not think people in NZ realise where we could go in 2011 as a nation if things do not improve for the small contractors,service and retail outlets who will lay thousands of people off unless things quickly improve. I am not saying people should get silly again and get into hp agreements like they used to. There are a lot of people who have put a considerable amount of money into the banks in the last year or so. Some if it needs to circulate because if it does not do that then this country is going to see a severe deterioration in the economy and the money in the bank is going to lose a lot of its value especially against overseas currencies.This can be avoided. I do not want what Wolly wants. I want a happy and prosperous nation where people have opportunities if they are willing to work hard.
Mate maybe this country needs the recession. Why do I say that? Is it because I don't like NZ and want to see my fellow Kiwis suffer? Of course not!
But don't forget that the bubble we just went through was eagerly embraced by all Kiwis who could borrow anything or get credit of any kind. It wasn't just the top earners. In fact the top earners may be the ones who were least sucked in.
So clearly Kiwis need a very hard lesson in why being a bubble loving dick is such a bad idea and why they should be rediscovering the virtues of saving some money and not spending it all faster than they can earn or borrow it or rack it up on a card!
Yeah yeah it's going to hurt, but that is the point. Most Kiwis wouldn't listen to the people telling them that they were trying to live a bubble dream. In fact most people scorned the bearers of the 'bad news' and called them negative and kill-joys. As we saw they just kept on borrowing and spending like there was no tomorrow.
Now things are tough and are going to get even tougher. The people who didn't borrow and spend until they had nothing but debt and some mortgaged houses full of stuff on HP are sitting and waiting it out -- the others will take a caning which is hard but necessary if NZ is to not be an airy-fairy live for the day type of place with no future.
The people who have built their futures on debt and credit and the hope that crossing their fingers and saying everything will be fine forever are the ones who are going to suffer because they set themselves up for a fall. Don't shoot the messengers who are reminding you of this.
Can't get the message through to them all LB. Expect to be spat at for trying. Prolonged recession or short sharp depression are the two options...oh and the pipedream that thinking positive will make the bad world go away.
keep posting the "downside risks" wolly, they are valued.
In a society such as ours where we have instant access to almost everything we desire, there is the expectation that life should be easy, without pain or struggle, and that if we want something we should be able to have it, and what is more, "we deserve it". (as the cosmetic ad tells us). An example of this trend is the rising level of credit card debt. Underlying this phenomenon is the idea that if we want it we should be able to have it - and have it NOW. In a society of quick results and instant fixes many people no longer are prepared to do the hard work that is involved in obtaining something of real and lasting value. People seem to want instant information and answers, not a deep and thorough understanding, but they end up with the equivalent of "fool's gold", not real gold. You can't take short cuts in the process of gaining real understanding - the results are just not the same.
NZ has spent decades building the " entitlement " mentality in its citizenry .
You are entitled to a gold-card-plated government-guarantee , from the cradle to the grave .
Nanny state will bail you out of any pickle that you getcha self into .
If you can get outta cosy crib before noon , and waddle down to a place of business , government has guaranteed how much the employer has to pay you . And if you do something totally dickheadedness , and hurt yer self , the governments ACC will make it all better , free to you , after slugging the employer a levy , to care for you .
Snuggle up to Nanny State . She will care for you , Namby Pamby . ........... Someone else will pay , snookums . You take it easy ........... Want an interest-free-student-loan , no , oh , you're 18 and up the duff , here , have a DPB for another 18 years . The unemployment benefit or an invalid pension awaits you after that ............ That oughta see you through to 65 , and we guarantee we won't fiddle or tweak with that pension , 'cos you're entitled .
How's the state home , HNZ looking after you , OK ? Loverly place to raise the we one . ............ If you have any bother , anything at all , call us , we'll always be here for you , Sweets .
..................... Just one thing : In the next election , remember to vote for our side . It was us who promised you all this !
Well....that about sums up this turd of an economy Gummy...cos Goofy and Cunny will ride that porky all the way...Tweak and Fiddle know it too...so they will wheel out the BS and spin machine keeping some freebees and tasty titbits for the election.....Wonder if they might do a deal with S&P...."you come on down and tell us how we have to swing the axe and we can say it's not our fault"...it just might work Tweak!
LB not everyone in NZ has done what you are saying they did. There are a lot of people out there struggling because one their cost of living is spiralling upwards and two because they are paid so bad in NZ. Not all of them have huge mortgages and other debts. I have a daughter who has left university after getting a degree and post graduate diploma and she cannot get work in her field. The old people on super who are facing rising costs of living. People on benefits who are facing the same issues. I agree there are some NZers who overdid the debt thing but why should the majority of us face a prolonged recession that you and Wolly want so the minority are taught a lesson. A prolonged recession is the last thing we want. It will cause more crime,more family breakdowns,more suicides and more people shifting overseas. The banks are awash with money they cannot get rid of and some of that money just needs to come out and get things going again. The consequences of what you want would set the country back immeasureably.
I am sure what was said were two options, long and slow, short and quick. Who says the banks are awash with cash? This is not at all true, or else the worlds major banks including some of our Ozzie owners would not have needed Federal Reserve help. Do not fall for that lie, some research is required there. Actually those people LB describes do need to learn the lesson because those who have not been recklous are paying as well. Lessons need to be learnt, because in NZ there are simply too many stupid people groomed to be bludgers, and looking for quick wins. Successive poor govt has aided this via no regluation or controls.
EA, things can and will not go back to how they were for a very long time, nor should they because how things were was a debt induced dream now turned to a nightmare. This must change, and its going to hurt everyone, more or less....
Have a read of this Gummy...the last sentence pretty well sums up where NZ is at!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10696958
......... " Blessing the site ! " ........... Jeepers creepers , do you laugh hickeysterically , or do you cry !
Not back at the hospital , healing the sick . Seeing to less stupid patients than that driver . But having an afternoon off for a touchy-feely blessing .
........... At what point did medicine in NZ cross the line from science , and enter the land of superstitution and witch-doctorism ? ..........
.... I guess that's why people call it " quackery " , ducks !
I knew you would enjoy that journey into the unknown Gummy......nothing like a good blessing to see off the evil spirits and bring on the good times...wonder if Tweak and Fiddle know about this discovery!
A buddy went into a private hospital ( St Georges , Papanui ) for a back operation . That place is awesome with a capital " O " . Neat , new , state-of-the-art , comfortable .............. And that's just the nurses ! The rooms and equipment are top-notch too ..............
........ Then you compare that to what the government provides us for " free " , the public system . Oh dear , it is light & day between the two . And hazard a guess as to which of the two is more expensive !
Government ought to not run any-bloody-thing ! ........Privatize the whole she-bang . The public will be so much better served by the private sector .
Oh great Gummy...now you'll have Bradford spitting tacks like a nailgun.
Excellent ! ......... She can assist the re-build in Chch ........... Not before time that she did something useful for the country .....
........ And just to really get her guns blazing , I propose that we scrap the minimum wage . No minimum !
Another one of your ridiculous statements Wolly that shows just how narrow your way of thinking is and how prejudiced you are. Please say something constructive and positive. Or is that impossible. Thank God my children did not have you as a teacher. They would not have achieved what they have done so far if they had the misfortune of having you educate them. Your world is so black. I agree we are in a mess but to sit back and enjoy watching the poorly paid go through it and just letting it go on is unforgiveable. Sit down and have a cup of tea and think for a change before you speak. Is there a way we can get out of this without making even more people in New Zealand have a miserable life. People would thank you rather than think you are a joke as they do at present. I believe we have the resources in New Zealand to get out of this mess. We just need some leadership from Key and co. There a lot of wealthy people in NZ who would not want their children and grand children to go through a recession for too much longer. Sensible spending from savings that are currently locked up in bank vaults and being of no use at all as no one is borrowing would be a good start. What do you think we should do Wolly. And don't say just let it take its course. That is going to kill this country once and for all if that is all we do.
Well for start Ex agent you might try ending your personal attacks.
So really, where is all this money you refer to EA? I'm curious because about $8bn of it has been stolen by fiancial company fraud, lost forever by unsuspecting kiwis. The genuinely wealthy NZ's are not enough to float the economy nor do they care to.
Wolly has his view and you have yours, actually his is more accurate and reflective of the current position, and take the PC out of it his comments can be quite entertaining.. Head in sand is not going to make this go away anytime soon, so we all need to get used to that.
For the record I enjoy your posts too, however this time I think that you are off the mark with some of them. Reality is harsh and ignoring it is not helpful to anyone, and as you say some leadership from Key et al, would be a start. This is not going to happen though, as they have no answers, it was always going to be that way...
WHERE'S GERALD ? DID BERNARD MAKE GOOD ON HIS THREAT TO BAN THE LAD ?
C'MON , HICKSTER , ANYONE WITH " THAT " HAIRCUT SHOULD HAVE A BETTER SENSE OF HUMOUR !
CAPS LOCKS RULE , FOR US SORE-LOSERS .
Nothing to do with munny ( unless you play for Pakistan ) , but the Pommy cricketers have just walloped the baggy-green-cap team by an innings and 157 runs ................ Aha ha de bloody ha . That'll learn youse , yer under-arm , sledging bunch of lying cheating , gutless wonders . ........... Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !
........... can I get a job as an umpire ?
Wait for it....wait for it....Gummy has stuck his finger up!
Wolly you were being downright racist so why should you be let off that. If you want people to take you seriously then stop being so silly with your comments and put up something constructive for a change. Your last comment about the bus incident is one I would expect of a school boy not a grown man. Not everyone is as rednecked and as puerile as you are.
You cannot have much cash if you cannot afford to spend any at present. There are tens of thousands of people in NZ including retired people who think they feel secure if they look at all their money in the bank and say to themselves it is safe there. And a lot of them have a lot of cabbage in the bank. But the opposite will occur if we let the economy stagnate indefinitely. The money in the bank will drop in value and buying power as our standard of living drops,the value of our dollar drops and imports increase in value and we have a huge burden on the haves who have to support more and more have nots. How are we going to get the NZers back home from overseas if there are no decent jobs and the standard of living continues to drop.Why would they not go to Australia instead. Many New Zealanders have made a lot of money in the 2000's and they could let some of it go. What they need is some inspired leadership from the beehive but as we pay peanuts we generally get monkeys and failures from the professions instead. Let us imagine we get to 15% unemployed Wolly. Would you want to live in NZ then. Would you share some of your cash with the unfortunate. Would you give food to the wondering homeless? We cannot let our nation slip any further from a fiscal point of view. The consequences are mind boggling.
Racist..Harhaaaaaaaaaahahaha..rubbish. Pagan beliefs are for Pagans not the nurses in a hospital. We have had this Paganism enter the schools for want of better leadership.
I have concluded you are just ranting away at whatever target you think is best. Rant all you wish.
The unemployment rate is already well above 15% for many sectors. Just ask the Pacific Island community in Auckland.
I'd guess you are right, Wolly! Here's a post by ex agent from the past....a stirrer......
"by ex agent | 28 Jul 10, 3:13pm
Right again TM. (The Man)
He is obviously just another caravan dwelling loser envious of us for making our fortunes in property while he rents forever."
Yep that's him...best not to remind him he will be paying my pension soon...so I can invest it in an aussie greenfields mining venture!...and employ heaps of Kiwi over there.
Sometimes I believe ex agent could be Roger our Gummy - so eloquent.
Were that I could be so sophisticated , cool , groovey and eloquent as ex agent ............. But I'll settle for being ahead of Bernard's head hair , here .
Number 6 I think you will find that was The Man getting stuck into me. I am in fact retired in my mid fifties. Property was good to me but there is a time to get out of it and thankfully I only have a house to worry about now. The Man went pretty quiet very quickly. He was a figment of his own imagination,just like Wolly who I am convinced is on the dole and wants everyone to live his lifestyle as he obviously missed the opportunites in the early to mid 2000's.
The opportunities you refer to above are the same "opportunities" which have contributed to your daughter not being able to find work, so which way do you want it....
PS - I am not attacking you personally in any way, just notice you seem happy to have made money which never existed from the "opportunities", but has to be paid back, yet now seem unable to match that to your daughters lack of employment options...
Redneck :n. Offensive Slang. Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class....
http://www.answers.com/topic/redneck
A case of the pot calling the kettle, black, ex agent?
Wolly racist! I think not .He just tells it like it is. A fiend of mine bought a freehold 130+ acre block covered in gorse as high as a house. It had been neglected for 20 years and he decided to subdivide it in 57 lifestyle blocks. As soon as word got out about his plan the local Maori decided they needed some of the action.$$$$$$$$ He tranformed the place, planted 15,000 native trees, put in roads etc. All while this was going on he had to spend over $130,000 on consultants, interpreters for the Maoris, sacred springs meetings,meeting after meeting. Nothing would satisfy the Maori. At one stage they wanted him to pay $4,200,000,000 for a sewage system for the area! He had to put in a $100,000 footpath that will never be used. After 3+ years he finally got the block signed off a ready for sale. Local Council were not impressed with the Maoris behaviour but could say nothing for fear of being labeled racist in the PC climate that has taken over this country. In the end he had to name the development with a Maori name, Have a dawn ceremony, cater for 80 ( only 11 got out of bed) and finally for every section sold he has to pay the local Maori $1,250.00 cash. Go figure why NZ INC is stuffed!!!!.
Lesson there bobby....some places you just don't wanna invest in. Explains also why some leave for good taking their capital and skills with them.
Still no ideas from any of you. You all attack the man and never put up any thoughts about how we could turn this dreadful economy of ours around. None of you are involved in any business of your own otherwise you would understand what I am talking about. If you are not on salaries I suspect some of you are on the dole as you spend so much time on this site. No employer would put up with you being on the computer so much and if you were self employed you would be so busy trying to keep your business going at present you would not have the time to be on this site. Put up some ideas otherwise you are all just hot air. Keeping things as they are and letting the markets sort themselves out is a copout and would be catastrophic for the nation.
Holy Cow!
Ex-Agent/Wolly! Are you two still going at it. Didn't I tell you little boys to chill a few months back.Stop winding each other up.
Please go and spend some time off the computer and with your families.
Regards
Hello 29/30 how are you... pay no heed to ex agent...he's been left home alone by a family sick of his grumpy nature.
28/29 i think you in fact are the little boy who shows his lack of wisdom and inexperience by putting all his eggs in one basket if I recall. Your comments are generally cocky about how well you have done in property but in fact you have failed to read the signs that were so obvious in 2007 and you failed to sell out. But everyone makes financial mistakes. You are a liar if you say you have never made any.
2011 is going to be a very difficult year in NZ as it continues to shut down unless someone actually does something about it. Asset values especially for houses are going to fall steadily over the next twelve months at the best. The worst situation for property owners is a big shake out as vendors finally give up their attempts to get 2007 prices and capitulate. Then throw in inflation. Just before christmas I spoke to a very successful agent who works with Western First National. She said the buyers she was currently dealing with were simply horrible to deal with. They know they have the upper hand and are willing to move onto another property if they dont get the one they are looking at for their price. Bernard was simply wrong in stating how long it would take for house prices in NZ to go back to levels you will not want to face. He thought it would happen quickly. It is going to happen over a number of years. Coastal properties and farms have already fallen back substantially. This year housing will continue to fall back month by month. The only area that might be immune is the posh central areas of Auckland but that cannot be guaranteed. I hope you do not have to much finance on your rentals. If you do sell some now.
I have actually spent some time in the garden 28/29 and my wife is very happy as it was the flower garden as well as the vegetable garden. Then this afternoon my son and I took the chain saw and a splitting axe up to the back of our lifestyle property and put away some more fire wood for winter. It has been a great day in the sun and I am far from grumpy in fact. I still notice that no one actually puts up any ideas on this site. They get stuck into anyone who actually thinks differently from them but they never ever put up any constructive ideas as to how this mess the country is in is actually going to be turned around. I believe there are sufficient savings being held by sufficient people that could be unlocked and used to keep things going. If they get much worse then we are in serious trouble as a nation and the consequences are too nasty to think about. My family have been to two separate cafes over the last two days so we are doing our bit. Could just one of you accept my challenge and put up one idea as to what we as a nation should currently be doing. Don't mention ideas that bring upon more unemployment as I would not want to be on the dole.
ex agent I think you are a decent man and I have to admit sometimes in life it is frustrating, how powerless we are, despite honesty and modesty. It seems the world belongs increasingly to the greedy and ruthless and even the public is in support of them, because blinded by traditional methods (rip of'f's) of making money.
Please, don't attack Wolly he's okay like so many - he battles for the same reason, but with different arguments. Don't get too personal we all see and handle "things" different.
Thanks Kunst. I am very worried that unless something happens soon we are going to be one sick puppy, ie the economy of New Zealand, and a lot of innocent vulnerable people at the bottom of the pile are going to have an even worse life as there will be a dirth of jobs available for them. And Wolly and his mates don't seem to care and simply say let the markets sort themselves out. Don't intervene as it needs to sort itself out. It's a bit like the poor in the world. You have to start somewhere.If you don't try you have lost your passion.
I have been helping may mate in appliances. If he had not got stuck in and rolled up his sleeves he could have lost it. As NZ goes into recession again less and less customers are coming in the door.Then the aussie competitors who are in the same boat start selling appliances at a loss to get some cashflow. What do you do. Sell at a loss or let the customer walk.It is not an easy position to be in. In one store he has 28 staff who depend on him keeping the doors open. Stock has been reduced and debtors have been chased up.For now he is okay but the summer months can be tough in retail as people get outdoors. He has to keep a very close eye on things day by day. From the government down to the small business owner they all need to get stuck in and fight for survival and hope the taxes for the government and the sales for the retailer improve.
Help him understand Walter...he lashes out when confronted with the truth...he fails to understand why we got into this mess and refuses to believe the option taken by the govt invites a long long period of recession level activity....he dreams of a magical recovery based on a spending blast from those who were prudent and saved for bad times.
Wolly I am with you as to why we are in this mess. A percentage of New Zealanders have lived beyond their means and now it has to be paid back.Coupled with the extraordinary growth in the cost of living of late and the average New Zealander is doing it hard. I saw at first hand how stupid they were as they bought over valued hunks of rubbish called investment property with too much debt. Now a lot of those are on the market and are empty as a lot of those buyers now realise it is a mugs game. There are far better returns from such things as good shares and they are easier to sell when times get tough. I am not pushing for a spending blast. I am calling for sensible spending,the kind of spending we had before the stupidity of the debt fuelled spending of the 2000's. At present spending is at a level closer to probably the stagnant 1990's and that will not sustain the country and more importantly the employment that the average kiwi is entitled to. Not all the people in the service industry,retail industry and alike have been stupid with their finances. Many of them have an average house with an average mortgage and an average japanese import or two and somehow they bring up their families on the pathetic wages this country pays them. Why should they not have the odd hp where they get a new washing machine or a new tv. Their lives are pretty crap and one cannot deny them that pleasure.Not all of them smoke drink and gamble heavily either. How can we just say to them "the economy is in the crap and we have to let it go along under its own steam and if there are casualties then so be it" .If life is crap for them now it will be worse if they are on the dole. And the social consequences and burden on the tax payers will be huge. The rule of law and the sanctity of property and values is much safer when you have a society that is content.
I firmly believe that we currently need a balance between saving and spending, not just the emphasis on saving. If we stop spending as we are doing at present for too much longer we are going to find ourselves in a country we do not recognise and do not like.
He’s not as knowledgably as you are Wolly, but he’s a decent man, who can scent there is something fundamentally wrong, which potentially could leads into disaster. Communities need people like ex agent, who get actively involved - helping.
Sometimes it is hard to understand why people, who battle in the same war become enemies. You two - It just needs a shake hand between man.
Policies that devalue the currency should be the number one target right now.
That is my suggestion, It is an interim action only and rebalancing the Economy is needed too.
I once suggested a tax on assets too BUT with it being able to be offset against income was the difference. Beats CGT because it hits each and every year and cannot be avoided by overseas owners if they can use only NZ income as their offset. The only exemption would be the family home and then only to a dollar limit and not available to non residents. Fixed income oldies with a high value home could be given a settlement extension until estate realisation. ( call it death duties if you must)
You wanted suggestions. There, I have started off. Maybe out of left field and aready to be shot down.
Go find a political party to implement that lot!
Trouble is if you exempt the family home you will make the next boom bigger. One of the secondary drivers in US and UK is the tax break on the mortgage on the house you live in. It just gets capitalised into the price of the things unfortunately.
That aside my prefererred solution is a variant on yours - our dear Dr Bollard should just buy half a tonne of gold a day every day the dollar is over 72 US cents, or one tonne a day when it is over 75 US cents or two tonnes a day when it is over 80 US cents. He should just create the NZD to do this. This is effectively a wealth tax on all holders of NZD. It will create a little inflation that will allow our currency to float down in purchasing power at a similar rate to the USD but it will also create an emergency gold fund which will no doubt come in handy in the future.
Hopefully the good doctor is working on an improved version of my plan as we speak.
Hi ex-agent
I have never lied on this site and I think you mistake my youthful enthusiasm for property as 'cockiness'. One thing I have learnt over the past few years and on this site is to listen (and read) to everyone and that everyone has something to offer. I don't agree with Wolly but he has his place on this site. I don't agree with you but what you say about your daughter unable to find a job after post-grad I symphasize with.
Business is crap at the moment. I don't dispell that and that I agree with you. This is personally my worst year since I started my business.But the downturn has been good in some ways. I have cut the fat (expenses by 30%) and running a tighter ship. I am growing my base and I am well placed for an up turn. I take my hat off to you for helping out your mate in need.
Solutions:
-Hard decisions are needed by someone after the next election. We cant afford to borrow anymore, we do need to cut and those areas have been posted by a lot of people in the last month
-There is a good article in the latest Metro about the myth that we should be as a country should be in the top flight of the OECD, I recommend everone grab a copy
I enjoy your posts ex-agent, I read every line, but as soon as the personal attacks start I switch off
Have a happy new years with your family, regards
And happy new years to all the regular posters and BH and the interest team
How did you cut your expenses by 30% 28/29. I hope you did not have to lay any staff off. I would have to be in a position where I had to do that as there are not many replacement jobs out there these days. I have to admit that when I sold the business and the investment properties in 2007/2008 I thought the recession would not last as long as it has. Now it looks like we are really only getting into the recession and it is going to go on for some years as all that debt has to be deleveraged. Property is now going to be just a nuisance if you are not living in it. The capital gain we were getting used to in the mid 2000's has disappeared and the tax advantages from being in negative gearing will be gradually whittled away as the governments of the future look to broaden their tax base as income tax and gst is not going to be a winner for them when the economy is slowing down. My mate in appliances has paid next to no tax in the last two or three years not because he is a smart arse tax wise but because he is not making money. If any of you can see property values being stable at the worst or rising a little at the best in the current financial enviroment then you are seeing something I am not seeing. In Hamilton I am told there are over a 1000 empty rentals on a daily basis at present and in New Plymouth up to 200 on a daily basis.It does not look like a shortage of housing scenario to me.
ex agent....a lot of people who are migrating to Oz are renting their houses rather than bite the bullet and take a hit on the price, restaurants are closing, businesses are struggling etc but it's just life resetting itself without fear or favour...the tragedy is those who didn't cause this global and local reset called " the new normal".. are being asked to pay the price for it by extensive and growing social and mental dislocation !.
but the revolt is starting to arc up all over the globe..student riots in the u.k, people in spain , ireland ,greece etc are all standing up and saying" we didn't cause it so we ain't going to pay"
the outcome of this will be interesting in the next 2-6 years...and combined with the wikileaks blowing the old order out of cyber space...with all their nasty little secrets....the revolution has began as we witness the end of 200 years of gradual hegemony etc and now money, like the snake, has finally caught up with it's tail and eaten itself into valuelessness......and so it is with the old social order.of faceless corporations and smoke-filled rooms full of american govt arseholes!!...the worm is turning!!
but what's all this got to do with new zealand..why do we have to suffer??..what did we do wrong?...
nothing,actually, other than being very small and irrelevant to the bigger scheme of things...we'll never hit the streets and revolt as we know whatever's going wrong is not the fault of our govt. other than the clarke regime playing a bit high and wild with money during the better times..
go with the flow ex-agent.....it's all just history in the making...as for Wolly...he's just in love with the sound of his own keyboard and not to be taken to heart ..whereas, the naughtiest angel known as the Gummy one...well, he's a totally different kettle of mango and green papaya salad...his really last name is actually Martini..which gives him a genetic disposition towards things being well shaken and then stirred..capiche?
Rob Rob ya gotta help me Rob....I just can't stop giggling!
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article25297.html
" Citizens will indeed cut consumption, not because of a psychological reaction to higher taxes, but because of a pocketbook reaction. The people taxed have less to invest. They do not invest in the private sector. The jobs created by taxation are jobs in government and jobs dependent on government".
Ok the NZ govt can rightly claim they have reduced not increased taxes....but....prices are still rising quickly for the stuff families need and the warning is out that the increases will speed up....also....ask yourself why council rates are rising so fast....then we come to the real income parasite doing the work of taxing the families and causing the fall in consumption....yes it's the oh so friendly bank that wants to be there helping you through life...with a hefty stinking mortgage....doh....the banks are doing the taxing...and if it's not the banks it sure as hell is the landlords who demand high rents to justify paying the high prices for the boxes of ticky tacky.
If you want to fix this awful turd of an economy...you must first smash the control the banks have over it....you must destroy the bubbles and put in place regulations and red tape that prevent another one starting.......simple really!
But taxes have gone up in NZ Wolly!
Surely you haven't been taken in by the political spin have you?
I am shocked. Shocked!
Rates have gone up 10% pa regardless of recession.
GST went up (offset to some extent by income tax cuts).
Inflation (a wealth tax) runs at 3- 5%.
The cut in company tax rates was dwarved by the removal of depreciation on buildings (a particularly dumb move as buildings do wear out - they should have attacked the holy cow of the concession on interest if they had any understanding of finance, which they clearly do not).
Special naughty boy taxes have been applied to petrol.
The electricity price rises each year of 10% look suspiciously like a tax increase since they are mainly government owned.
Students pay a special education tax disguised as a student loan.
Who gets all this extra loot? Do they deserve it? In general my sympathies are with those getting paid less per person from the government machinery.
No RW...I was just making a general comment re gst up paye rates down...hard to know what the real position is....but if the overall tax take has gone up, it surely has not been of the magnitude of the sum being sucked from the economy by the banks as they milk their mortgage portfolios.
I pay less in paye on investment income but more on food and fuel...it discourages me from spending....this is why retail trade is on the rocks. I see value in a veg garden and the chooks.
Hence my comment on interest as a tax deductible expense. It makes no sense to have interest as a deductible expense against income tax since it relates to a decision by the owners of whether to pay for an asset with equity or loan. It is therefore a capital expense. It would be sensible to have this as allowable against capital gains.
Basically the finance chaps have a very special and protected cushy area - they don't even pay GST on their service even though we pay GST on bread.
This is why I agree with my old economics professor who called the then UK Finace Minister an "intellectual featherweight". Why are they so thick? Is it just the noise around them?
You must stop peaking into that can of worms RW....pollies brown nose the money men in the interest of winning donations ....govts end up controlled by the money mafia as a result.
So, Wolly, you think they are corrupt as well as incompetent?
Bill English.
Pansy Wong.
Chris Carter.
David Garrett.
Rodney Hide.
Taito Philip Field.
Roger McClay.
Donna Awatere-Huata.
Kanwal Singh Bakshi.
Richard Worth.
And many, many more...
So, Wolly, you think they are corrupt as well as incompetent?
No of course not RW...none of our leaders would ever act in a corrupt manner and they are all most competent..highly experienced in managing a multi billion dollar economy....must rush...have to have a spew.
Wolly, be careful I already sacked Hide, Brownlee and Joyce because of underperforming on different matters. Pike River/ Production etc.
OK you jokers, so what is the answer? What will be the 'Biggest Bleeeet' this time next year? Given we are heading to hell in a handcart, or, as some would have it, nows the time to get in..................
We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment.
Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.