Have your say: What should NZ's stance be on child labour laws when negotiating free trade agreements with developing countries

NZ Trade Minister Tim Groser says the fundamental driver for eradicating poverty and child labour in developing countries is through economic development, with free trade deals between nations playing a crucial part.

That is why New Zealand is continuing to press for free trade agreements with nations like India, Groser says, despite child labour still being used there.

It is almost impossible to trace whether Indian goods sold in New Zealand have had a child labour input, Groser says. Yet New Zealand does not want to be buying products that have been produced through this form of exploitation.

So what can we do about it? Should we be refusing to sign a deal with India until there is firm evidence there is no child labour used in its economy? Or will signing a FTA with India help the situation by helping economic development in that country?

The situation in India isn't just going to change suddenly tomorrow because of a few free trade agreements. It will likely be many decades before full eradication of the use of child labour in these developing countries. Groser points to Korea as an example, where over 50 years it went from one of the poorest nations in the world which exploited children in its workforce, to becoming one of the world's wealthiest nations.

The Indian Commerce Minister this weekend defended Indian labour laws, saying use of child labour was illegal. He said the government was working on eradicating poverty and child labour, but that free talks were not a platform to be discussing the issue.

Your view?

So is it alright for New Zealand to sign trade agreements with countries that use children in the workforce? Should we be telling them that we will not sign anything until child labour is eradicated? Or will we be helping them eradicate it by signing trade agreements with them and aiding their economic development?

Here is Tim Groser's exchange with TVNZ political editor Guyon Espiner on Q&A over the weekend:

GUYON         One of the impacts of poverty in India is obviously the child labour issue there. There are millions, apparently, of 5-14 year olds who work in child-labour conditions. I spoke to the India Trade Minister about this. They are very sensitive about that issue, and they say they don’t want labour standards to be included in the free-trade agreement. Are you comfortable with labour standards not being included in the free-trade agreement?

TIM     Well, we base our discussion with India and with all developing countries which have this problem, and all of them, of course, uh, bar a few very strange regimes, are as deeply concerned about their own child labour and poor working conditions for rural and urban poor as we would be. We deal with that through the ILO conventions. We’ve adopted, as a country, a policy of trying to engage in a cooperative way with these countries. That’s the model we’ve used in China. It’s in the model we’ve used in Indonesia. It’s the model we’ve used elsewhere, and I think that, in the long run, is going to serve everybody’s interests the best.

GUYON         You mentioned the International Labour Organisation there. When I go back to your 2009 joint feasibility study on this free-trade agreement with India, it says that, and I’ll quote this to

you: ‘As a minimum, the outcomes of all trade agreements to which NZ is a party must be generally consistent with and not undermine these core principles.’ When I look at the core principles of the International Labour Organisation, one of them is the abolition of child labour. Clearly India has not abolished child labour, so isn’t this going to be a sticking point for you in this agreement?

TIM     Oh, I don’t think it will prove to be a sticking point. I think it’s something we’re trying to work with the Indian government in a cooperative way. I mean, the main focus of our negotiations is to try and work in areas that are very important to the economic development of India, that also benefit us. My firm and long-standing view is that the best way to achieve higher standards for all exploited people is through the process of economic development. I mean, if you go back into Western economic history, we had appalling child-labour problems in Victorian England. The pathway is economic development, and I’m an absolute believer that trade is the best possible thing NZ can do in a practical sense, while maintaining a political dialogue on these standards, but not in a confrontational way. We’re just not going to go there.

GUYON         So, that’s fascinating, actually, what you’ve said - that the way to get out of the problem of child labour and poverty is free trade, in your belief.

TIM     Absolutely. Absolutely, but it’s not quite as black and white as an either/or proposition. I mean, I think that the fundamental driver of getting rid of poverty, getting rid of abuse of child labour even in our own economic history - if we go back to the economic antecedents of NZ - is economic development, to give people the resources by which they can do something about it. I mean, I remember when I was ambassador to Indonesia. At one stage during that in the mid ‘90s, the Indonesian government - now, this is before real democracy - this is during the Suharto years - they increased the compulsory age for primary education. Why? Because the economic development process made it realistic for them to do this, and Indonesia’s been doing that in a staged way over the last 25 years. I don’t think there is any doubt that the pathway here is wealth creation, plus the judicious use of this by the governments concerned, to address these social problems. Now, the extent to which a tiny country like NZ can help here is indeed primarily by expanding economic opportunities for people.

GUYON         Before I leave that issue, is there any way that people buying products in NZ, say bed linen, which I know that India exports a lot of to NZ - is there any way that New Zealanders buying those products in our country can tell, or should they know, whether these products have been made with child labour?

TIM     Well, it would be extremely difficult. I mean, we went through this, I remember, in the previous Parliament when I was in Opposition. We looked very carefully at this issue in terms of some iconic products like chocolate. Now, the problem here is that while New Zealanders obviously morally don’t want to use products where there’s gross exploitation, it’s in a practical sense, we found, almost impossible to trace the inputs. So, once again, you come round full circle to what I think is the only conceivable and practical way through this. It is not grandstanding. It is to promote economic development. Trade is absolutely central to this process. It’s because of trade that a country like Korea has gone from being one of the 10 poorest countries in the world, with dreadful labour conditions, to being an outstanding country now, with very high living standards for most of its people. So, you know, I’m an absolute believer that trade is actually the best long-run route.

And here is Espiner's exchange with the Indian Commerce Minister:

GUYON         There is clearly still a lot of poverty in India, though, too, isn’t there? The World Bank estimates that some-

ANAND          We have not said that it is not there. These are historical reasons. You perhaps may not find it easy to fathom. As I said, a country that is home to 1.2 billion people, and 20% of the world’s children live in India. India is still a developing country. For centuries, India was colonised, but today we have not only access to, but we have our own core strengths in technologies, in innovation and research, and that is what is propelling India forward.

GUYON         Sure. I’m just trying to gauge the size of that poverty, though. The World Bank says about three quarters of the population live on about US$2 a day. Is that-?

ANAND          Listen, I’m not going to- here to argue about the numbers. We are not disputing, but this number is not correct. So I’m not getting into a debate on this. Let me educate you. I used the words ‘inclusive growth’. Inclusive growth and sustainable development means that as the Indian economy grows, as capacities are built up, as resources are mobilised, they are reinvested to ensure that the benefits reach those people who have been denied access to opportunities and resources for a long time for the historical reasons. Tens of millions of Indians have come out of the poverty net ever since we embarked on the path of economic liberalisation.

Today India has more resources which are being reinvested and redistributed. When you look at what is happening in India, it’s a socially inclusive economic agenda. Perhaps that should be properly understood. India has today a programme where all school children are retained in schools for free meals, cooked meals, which are provided by the state. It’s over 127 million children who are retained on every day in the schools. India has also, through a constitutional amendment, given a right to work, right to employment for 100 days for every citizen. So this is something that is our problem, and these are the priorities which we decide. Nobody decides this for India. We are a sovereign country and a democracy.

GUYON         I understand that. I understand that. You talked about children there. Um, from the reading that I’ve done, there seems to be perhaps 12 million children aged between 5 and 14 who are in a situation of working - essentially child labour. Is that still a big issue in India?

ANAND          We have the laws, we have the best practices, and we have the institutions to implement the laws. India does not encourage- India has forbidden child labour. We are a rule-based and rule-governed country. People should understand the complexities of India’s situation and not try to mock at us.

GUYON         With respect, I’m not trying to do that at all. I’m trying to gauge the size of the issue. Is it still true that there are 12 million children who are working in India?

ANAND          As I said, 20% of the world’s children live in India. You calculate the number.

GUYON         Is it acceptable? Does it happen that you have 5, 6, 7-year-olds who are working in match-box factories, for example?

ANAND          I have answered the question. I’m not going to say anything further.

GUYON         On that issue, though, do you think that a trade agreement should include provisions to ban child labour or to deal with that issue?

ANAND          That’s insulting to India. India does not allow any extraneous matters. There are other platforms to discuss this, not in trade negotiations. Thank you. (SHARMA ATTEMPTS TO HANG UP). (SPEAKING TO SOMEONE OFF-CAMERA) He’s a very rude fellow.