90 seconds at 9 am with BNZ

90 seconds at 9 am: ECB intervenes massively to stop PIGS contagion spreading to Italy, Spain; Markets brace for American downgrade fallout; NZ$ firm

8th Aug 11, 8:52am by Bernard Hickey

Bernard Hickey details the key news over the weekend in 90 seconds at 9 am in association with Bank of New Zealand, including news of turmoil on financial markets over the weekend.

The European Central Bank announced plans for massive intervention to buy Spanish and Italian government bonds in an attempt to stop the contagion of sovereign debt fear spreading from the PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain) to the core of Europe.

See more here at Reuters.

This follows the downgrade of America's credit rating from AAA to AA+ by Standard and Poor's. See our article from Saturday.

China warned America it needed to cure its addiction to debt. See more here at Sydney Morning Herald.

Israeli markets were open over the weekend and fell 7% after the news. Dubai markets fell almost 4%.

The US dollar weakened against many currencies, including the the New Zealand dollar, which rose back to over 84 USc from as low as 82 USc on Friday.

(Updated. The NZ dollar dropped around 10am by as much as 70 bps to 83.7 USc as Asian markets slumped. Wholesale interest rates dropped back to their levels seen three weeks ago before talk of a OCR hike on September 15 caused ASB, Westpac and Kiwibank to lift fixed mortgage rates)

The Dow closed up on Friday after slightly better than expected jobs figures, but it closed before the S&P downgrade.

Meanwhile, political and social pressures are growing in Europe.

There was street violence in Madrid and widespread looting and riots in London over the weekend. See more here at the Telegraph.

(Updated with links and morning market action)

No chart with that title exists.

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.

114 Comments

by Andrewj | 8th Aug 11, 10:06am 1312754787

It is a rather unorthodox way of solving debt problems by taking on yet more debt. It is even more unorthodox if the servicing of the existing debts is impossible without taking such additional debt. This is a classic example of a downward debt spiral: sliding into bankruptcy. Yet this is exactly what the US, as well as Britain and many countries in the Eurozone are doing.

http://gregpytel.blogspot.com/2011/08/irrational-exuberance-two-double…

by skudiv | 8th Aug 11, 11:53am 1312761233

Unorthodox implies this is unusual, it's frightening how orthodox it is, to the point where this is seen as the best option to avoid bankruptcy the very thing it creates and exarcerbates.

by Andrewj | 8th Aug 11, 10:09am 1312754994

We face recession without shock absorbers as Berlin loses patience with the eurozone The Great Reprieve is exhausted. The world has used up the three years' grace gained by extreme stimulus after the debt bubble burst in 2008. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/86874…

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 10:33am 1312756430

yep.....it was wasted really....the banks etc were determined to carry on and once in the to big to fail or too big to leave "our shores" category (because there is naff all left of manufacturing etc) ie a significant part of GDP, the writing was on the wall....I think we should start to see a few Pollies/bankers being hung in the next few years....

regards

by Andrewj | 8th Aug 11, 10:38am 1312756727

The idea that a capitalist economy can support a socialist welfare state is collapsing before our eyes, says Janet Daley. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/janetdaley/8685945/If-we-…

by Carpetbagger | 8th Aug 11, 10:54am 1312757671

... or that humanity can support capitalism...

Perhaps we should just return to our prehistory and be the animals from whence we descended....

by goldenfox | 8th Aug 11, 10:50am 1312757400

"widespread looting and riots in London over the weekend"

Bernard, your a jorno but please. Some action in Tottenham is hardly related to the economic situation. More the cops getting a little heady and the locals responding.

The shock is the world had to wait for S&P to tell them the US is on credit downgrade. They have been printing money for 18mths - the patient is already dead!!

by Nicholas Arrand | 8th Aug 11, 11:11am 1312758680

Perhaps that's just the point, goldenfox? The riots may not have been about' the shooting', but a good opportunity for the UK to join in with the discontent that the citizens of the Western World are showing towards their 'leaders'? In that case; it is all about economics.

by Frazcam | 8th Aug 11, 1:08pm 1312765738

Sorry Nicholas - they have nothing to do with economies - just a good excuse for a bit of looting. It has happened before and it will sure as hell happen again. There are people out there waiting to blame genuine grievances for their illegal actions.

by Bernard Hickey | 8th Aug 11, 11:11am 1312758681

Goldenfox

Here's how the BBC reported the riots in Tottenham and now Enfield. Have a look at the images and video. Large numbers of burnt out building. Sustained looting. Something serious is happening there.

Police launch a major investigation in the wake of widespread rioting in north London which saw attacks on people, fires and looting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14438109

cheers

Bernard

by HarryM | 8th Aug 11, 11:28am 1312759721

Goldenfox is obviously from the Ghetto!! Where this sort of carry on is an everyday occurrence!!

by Vanderlei Luxemburgo | 8th Aug 11, 11:45am 1312760756

I look at 2 examples, but there are plenty throughout history. One obscure event kicks off a whole series leading to something massive: the assasination of ArchDuke Ferdinand, and the self-immoliation of mohamed boazizi in tunisia.

the powder-keg is stacked and primed. now we await the lit match

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 1:07pm 1312765646

"Something serious is happening"

Of course it is.

What is the youth un-employment? twice the adult is typical.....no money, no jobs no stake in society or the status quo.....if they can look into the future, what do they see? more of the same, or worse. We are looking at a 10 to 30 year event....a substantial number of such youth wont get a decent job, ever....

And whats getting better? we have had three years of "official" problem/recession, its at least another 3 to 5 years of staggering along like a wounded bull.....then Peak oil really starts to bite and we nose dive into a depression....or we blow up and go into a depression right now....nice choice....or even if you believe the hyper-inflationists we see welfare payments unable to cope there either....

This really is a minor riot, compared to whats coming I suspect, wait til we see hunger.

regards

by Vanderlei Luxemburgo | 8th Aug 11, 1:41pm 1312767668

i hear they were about to lay off 20,000 cops in england. are there dots to join?

by Bernard Hickey | 8th Aug 11, 11:07am 1312758441

FYI S&P 500 futures down 2.6% in early Asian trade.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-07/u-s-stock-futures-oil-plunges-on-rating-downgrade-n-z-index-declines.html

cheers

Bernard

by David George | 8th Aug 11, 11:26am 1312759590

The ASX has opened down 4% according to Bloomberg, now at around 4100, from 5000 in May.

Gold however up big time and threatening $1700/oz

by HarryM | 8th Aug 11, 11:53am 1312761183

Doesn't it open at 10am AET? Must be the futures

by Kunst | 8th Aug 11, 11:33am 1312760009

Stealing money in the millions daily - the corrupt, greedy and unethical powerfool’s are ruining the world. The game is over guys – the wall too high.

In comparison - I like that little guy – how he’s dealing with a problem – simple honest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyB6dU_GpDs

by Alex Tarrant | 8th Aug 11, 11:35am 1312760136

Here you go everyone

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1108/S00100/media-use-of-statistics-good-bad-and-ugly.htm

Media use of statistics: good, bad, and ugly

Nominations are called for noteworthy statistics – good, bad and ugly – quoted in the New Zealand media, for a new weekly competition on the Stats Chat blog run by the Department of Statistics at The University of Auckland.

“We want New Zealanders to be more aware of statistics and the role they play in the media,” says Professor Thomas Lumley, a regular contributor to the blog. “We see numbers in the media every day and we want people to think carefully about them – what they actually mean and whether or not they make sense.”

Anyone may nominate a statistic used by the New Zealand media, explaining why they think it is noteworthy. School students, in particular, are encouraged to take part. The person who posts the winning entry will receive a $20 iTunes voucher.

“We’re looking for bad, exemplary or fascinating examples of statistics,” says Rachel Cunliffe who coordinates the blog. “All competition entrants need to do is quote the statistic, when and where it was published, and tell us why it should be our statistic of the week.”

Full competition details, including instructions on how to enter and judging criteria can be found on the site: www.statschat.org.nz

Stats Chat was launched earlier this year to scrutinise facts and figures used in the media. “We’re aiming to offer insight and boost statistical literacy by providing a space for thoughtful analysis and comment on the statistics making headlines,” says Head of Department Professor Chris Triggs.

As well as encouraging discussion about statistics, the blog provides an archive of resources for use by anyone with an interest in statistics, from members of the public to journalists, and teachers.

Recent posts by staff members have examined how the wording of poll questions may have influenced surveys on equal pay for men and women, scrutinised beliefs about student drinking, and looked at how the risk of accidental injury can be interpreted in different ways.

by Carpetbagger | 8th Aug 11, 11:48am 1312760925

A novel idea. I'll give it a 40% chance of becoming a weekly event.

by skudiv | 8th Aug 11, 11:48am 1312760914

('Updated. The NZ dollar dropped around 10am by as much as 70 bps' Im pretty sure you measure Forex in pips not bps could be wrong tho.

by Bernard Hickey | 8th Aug 11, 11:55am 1312761323

fair enough. pips it is. 0.7USc

cheers

Bernard

by Bernard Hickey | 8th Aug 11, 11:53am 1312761228

FYI rioting in London has now spread to Brixton, Guardian reports.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live

12.13am: Looting is going on in Brixton, unhindered by the police, according to the Guardian's Matt Taylor.

At the scene, he witnessed a couple of hundred people taking goods out of Footlocker, which has now been set on fire. Some let on bicycles while others passed it to friends in waiting cars.

A police helicopter is circling overhead while police on the ground have congregated on side street close to scene but have not yet intervened.

Those taking part in the looting are aged in their teens or early twenties.

by Chairman Moa | 8th Aug 11, 11:56am 1312761402

What the peeeepp... "riots in London over the weekend" This has nothing to do with the economic situation - it was from the Police shooting for Pete's sakes!!!!!

What news channel is BH watching - I bet it was Fox News! Or has BH taken up a part time role with Australian Womens weekly.. What a load of rubbish!

by powerdownkiwi | 8th Aug 11, 12:13pm 1312762420

cm - hmmm. There is a rising generation who are well aware they've been robbed. Whether it be the Middle East, Britain, or here (where I attended a 500-plus gathering of local students last week - all questioning their real inheritance) they're pissed.

So take a step back and see the little people

They may be young

But they're the ones who make the big people big

So listen

As they whisper

What about me

What about me

It isn't fair

I've had enough now I wasn't my share

Can't you see

I wanna live

But you just take more then you give

Be warned........

by Chairman Moa | 8th Aug 11, 12:26pm 1312763190

Fancy quoting the lyric from an Australian band... But you forgot the last part of the song... Yes you are lucky and always want more... not just the liitle people!

And now i'm standing on the corner all the world's gone home

Nobody's changed, nobody's been saved

And i'm feeling cold and alone

I guess i'm lucky, i smile a lot

But sometimes i wish for more than i've got

by powerdownkiwi | 8th Aug 11, 1:03pm 1312765399

CM - sorry, who said I want more? Don't take things for granted please. :)

by Chairman Moa | 8th Aug 11, 1:20pm 1312766452

I was referring to the young generation that you mentioned - The iPhone generation.. always want the latest and the greatest - without having to work (hard) for it!

by iconoclast | 8th Aug 11, 12:43pm 1312764188

PDK: An intriguing notion - care to expand on that.

There is a rising generation who are well aware they've been robbed, (questioning their real inheritance) they're pissed.

by powerdownkiwi | 8th Aug 11, 1:00pm 1312765246

Iconoclast - I've mentioned it here, but I was blown away by that lecture last week at Otago Uni.

Organised by a group called Generation Zero. One of the front-people would out-mana and out speak Key, in spades.

There were upward of 500 on them - all quiet, thoughtful student types. They're not likely to riot - but they're a tad more dangerous, for that. The discussion seriously touched on the need to end growth-based finance, and to reduce carbon (obvious from their name) to zero.

I was just stunned by the number.

It suggests that Labour and National are long-term history. Put that trolley on the powerdown/fiscal retraction downslope, and you can see a remnant extreme defending the doomed existing state of affairs (think of the top-hatters arresting Pankhurst, then running headlong into WW1) and a whole lot of disillusioned but basically good folk, wanting to do the right thing.

Those youngsters had us oldies on - rightly - about squandering their resources while leaving them the residual shyte to clean up. I've already apologised to my kids, we're going to have to do that en-masse.

by iconoclast | 8th Aug 11, 1:52pm 1312768354

PDK: The youngsters had us oldies on - rightly - about squandering their resources while leaving them the residual shyte.

"Their resources" hahahaha

Thats where our views depart. You are being seduced by the noise and clamour of the baying crowd. Much like the gay-movement wanting greater and greater privileges and entitlements.

I have challenged this notion in the past, accusing the "younger generation" blasting their very existence up their noses with crank. I have commented previously on the "younger generations" propensity to consume un-necessary toys and exhaust resources at a rate of knots never seen before. I dont accept the notion "that we invented the toys" therefore its not their fault.

Try the following and answer me this.

In all your days prior to your 21st birthday how much "un-necessary" damage did you do to your parents?

Quote from: Deborah Hill-Cone

Yesterday my credit card got declined after my 6-year-old daughter ran up a $1500 bill on an iPad game.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10742976

by powerdownkiwi | 8th Aug 11, 2:06pm 1312769186

Nope - I'm seduced by nobody. I'm here because I worked out - all alone - that we would be in the shyte, about now. I did that at 20. 1975. Ever since, I studied the whats and the whys and the ifs.

You miss the point re youngsters - who barages them with advertising, playing at peer-fears?

Your generation, and mine. Sure, mea culpa - but I acknowledge it, and am doing as much as anyone I know, to redress that.

You raise a bigger, and valid question, though: (although you don't articulate it)

If the planet can support perhaps 2 billion at subsistence level, indefinitely, or one billion at our level, and we're carrying 7 billion as of October......... do we existing folk run the place into the ground, die off end story? Or do we reduce out population, ease our way to the subsistence level (or agree on a better quality/lesser people level), while there still some chance of doing so?

There is an argument that the speed of the disintegration in the first scenario, might give the survivors a better chance. I personally favour a controlled descent - but we're not going to be allowed the debate, while folk like Gonzo are funded by our Elder citizens.

by goNZ | 8th Aug 11, 2:16pm 1312769777

nobody is funding me, Loser

stick to working how to get the population down to 2 billion and the rest of your nutty ideas

by powerdownkiwi | 8th Aug 11, 2:37pm 1312771065

I've stored that comment, gonzo :)

by Andrewj | 8th Aug 11, 12:18pm 1312762730

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/8686314/We-cant… BazzaMcKenzie

The elephant in the room is without QE there is now no one to buy most US government debt. The bulk of the last rounds of money printing found its way its way into Treasuries, of which Bernanke is now the proud owner of a mountain.

If QE does not restart, the debt Congress and Obama just committed to massively expanding can't, because there will be no lenders. So further US money printing is guaranteed.

Once you appreciate the simple fact that the Fed is now the primary lender to the US Government, and there are no alternatives, then money printing is an absolute certainty until Congress eventually refuses to raise the debt ceiling or the US economy collapses in hyper stagflation. BazzaMcKenzie Today 12:39 AM

No Liam, it is not Obama's job "to provide a rallying call". It was, and is, his job to enact policies that improve the economic position of the United States instead of the reverse.

While Obama has only limited responsibility for the economic conditions when he can to office, that is not true of his party, which has consistently pursued big government, corruption and insane policies like the CRA.

But since Obama came into office everything he has done has been economically destructive for the US, from his initial non-stimulating "stimulus" that was another payment to his supporters while pushing the US a further $1trillion into debt; Obamacare, whose job-destroying uncertainty hovers like a massive black cloud over the country; his EPA with its anti-CO2 regulations and threats that block development and force up energy prices; his blockage of oil and gas exploitation both on and off shore; his unending attempts to spend more and more on the government and his supporters; and the public's understanding that he will force up taxes whenever he gets the chance.

The two and one half years of Obama's presidency have made him incapable of issuing such a call in any meaningful way. His consistent actions have branded him for the destroyer he is.

The greatest uncertainty hanging over the US today is whether Obama will be re-elected in 2012. Every producer, as well as everyone dedicated to liberty, knows if that happens it will be a further 4 years of a concerted attack on everything that once made the US great.

As long as that uncertainty exists, producers in the US will limit their risks as much as possible, looking to place their capital outside the country and, instead of concentrating on building business, will be concentrating on bringing about Obama's presidential demise, without which no business building makes sense.

Obama, with the other Democrat leaders, is at the core of the US's problem and can never be part of the solution.

by cbs | 8th Aug 11, 12:29pm 1312763396

Updated. The NZ dollar dropped around 10am by as much as 70 bps to 83.7 USc as Asian markets slumped. Wholesale interest rates dropped back to their levels seen three weeks ago before talk of a OCR hike on September 15 caused ASB, Westpac and Kiwibank to lift fixed mortgage rates)

Therefore the banks should now reverse their fixed rates back to where they were before they were spruiking us left, right and centre two weeks ago about the economic "miracle" that is NZ as we bound out of depression in to recovery based on 0.8% growth or something preposterous (margin of error at all anyone??) and a government that is borrowing $325m a week on our behalf to keep the clapped out economic powerhouse of NZ going. Agree with you steven that there are likely to be a a few hangings in the next 1-2 yrs be they politicians, bankers, politician/bankers like Don Key and co.

by Kunst | 8th Aug 11, 12:37pm 1312763869

2012 – a lot of fire and smoke and “The capitalistic, greedy and corrupt swine” to be slaughtered.

Looking into current developments on many fronts – the world will never recover again, simply because among the powerful in societies ethic and moral requirements and standards don’t prevail.

by kowtow | 8th Aug 11, 12:43pm 1312764231

Rioting in London.........a certain politician warned of this a long time ago.

Got nothing to do with the economy,all to do with certain groups engaged in crime.

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 12:56pm 1312764973

EP was a very intelligent person....much misaligned IMHO.

Thanks for the redneck comments, but we can pass on those....

regards

by Frazcam | 8th Aug 11, 1:15pm 1312766106

EP comments taken out of context and jumped on by self appointed anti racist brigade - anyone who has lived in GB and knows Brixton, Tottenham areas well have known for years what is happening - there are a lot of no go areas round there and it has nothing to do with the economy - When Britain was booming there was trouble there, ask Keith Blakelock's family.

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 1:21pm 1312766464

I lived and worked in London....and I know Brixton.......few no goes....mostly just ppl trying to get by.

regards

by Gummy Bear Hero | 8th Aug 11, 12:50pm 1312764628

I do admire the thick face of the Chinese authorities , to lecture the Americans on their debt level ............

..... pray tell me , Comrade Chairman , that big fat surplus of $US which your country is sitting on , it came from where , exactly ?

by David B | 8th Aug 11, 2:49pm 1312771754

Isn't that the delicious irony though, Gummy? And now it's worth that little bit less! Serves them right in my view.

by ian in rototuna | 8th Aug 11, 1:06pm 1312765618

For everyones dose of modern London history. The same estate-Broadwater Farm has always been one of the worst in london. PC Keith Blackelock was axed to death,in the last big riot. And while the police dealt with that, the crim element went round looting from their own! Same thing in Brixton, even robbed out the local community garage.

So, please do not confuse this as down to the Global meltdown, this was a drug dealer shot dead and that same minority causing trouble while they rob the community again!! Makes S. Auks a nice place to live in.

by Frazcam | 8th Aug 11, 1:17pm 1312766259

Well said Ian - it is hard for people over here to understand being brought up in a community when English is the fourth or fifth language, although that community is in England.

by Matt S | 8th Aug 11, 1:08pm 1312765693

Noone could have seen it coming. No one.

/sarc>

by goNZ | 8th Aug 11, 1:16pm 1312766175

yeah EP warned 'em it would happen - too late now

I know poms that moved out of UK because of what was going on eg teachers wouldnt let school kids sing Xmas carols cos it might upset the other religeon

Weve gotta watch out for similar here like Harawira,Minto running their obnoxious separatist agendas

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 1:25pm 1312766741

Wow a red neck racist as well as not very bright. Being an atheist I dont like being expected to pray or sing / repeat religious chants either....

regards

by me | 8th Aug 11, 1:36pm 1312767409

Steven, don't suppose you've been to North Korea, they are anti-religious atheists but I can assure you they are the best at singing/repeating chants about how glorious their socialist state is. Hey, they are 'reds', may be they are rednecks?

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 1:43pm 1312767789

Im not especially anti-religon I just dont want it in my life or face, what others do is their choice.

NK, doesnt appeal....I like democracy.

regards

by OMG | 8th Aug 11, 2:12pm 1312769546

Actually Steven the global warming church you do belong to is definitely a minority and plenty of NZers don't want a bar of it.

It is only in the EU, (including the UK, ~1.7% of World CO2 emissions or ~11% of EU emissions), as well as Australia and New Zealand where their governments have committed action on CO2 into legislation.

These isolated nations are about 8% of the world population and only~14% of the world’s CO2 emissions at present.

Take a look.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/07/worldwide-co2-emissions-and-the-futility-of-any-action-in-the-west/#more-44703

by steven | 9th Aug 11, 8:35am 1312835720

Tis simple....just because the world doesnt want to know about AGW, doesnt mean it isnt happening and will not effect ppls lives.

I think Ive said it before though, I agree that ppl and Govn's wont act...so that means if the scientists are right on the extent of warming (at about 6~7Deg C) the end result is extinction of our (and many other) species in about 150~200 years or so. As we flip into a super-warm period....so after 100million years or so the carbon genie will be back in its bottle and the planet will start again.

LOL, Church, this is like Darwin v creationalism, on the scientific side we have Darwin and AGW and on the other religious denialists who believe that all AGW scientists are on the make and are telling falsehoods in order to effect freedom and the continued "right" to pillage the planet.

Personally I think it comes down to politics and greed again and again, it shows up the extremists its usual amoral light, all the while wrapped in their belief that some mythical being who talks to them says its OK to carry on. Thats OK of course, they get to go to heaven where all will be well, no nasty AGW or ppl of science there to spoil their...uh....ecstasy.

regards

by Kermit The Frog | 8th Aug 11, 1:40pm 1312767643

More name calling Steven.........why dont you contribute something more productive....like telling us what "glaciergate" is all about ?

Regards

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 1:47pm 1312768059

Why dont you tell us, Im sure its far more entertaining and far fetched from the denier side.....just like the emails that proved so much, not....a typo blown out of context goes a long way, or has to when thats all you have.

regards

by Kermit The Frog | 8th Aug 11, 2:11pm 1312769491

I actually did find the article in Saturdays Herald entertaining....and thought of you as I read it.

In short the IPCC got it wrong...again....so im wondering how that sits with the undeniers claim that the science is settled ?

by Gummy Bear Hero | 8th Aug 11, 10:50pm 1312800656

.... " undeniers " ....... fecking hell Kermie , I just pissed me Gummy undeniers , laughing so hard after reading that ! ........ Brilliant !!!

by KW John | 8th Aug 11, 11:36pm 1312803373

'Generally the lower the denier, the sheerer the appearance and the more fragile the product'

....silly word indeed.

by steven | 9th Aug 11, 8:38am 1312835911

One minor aspect of the entire collection of IPCC reports/papers had a mistake.....personally I cant see it as rational that someone dismisses the entire works that the IPCC brings together because there is one small piece that is faulty.

regards

by Kermit The Frog | 9th Aug 11, 8:50am 1312836624

Steven I cant see it as rational that the undeniers (undies) claim that the science is settled and are seeking to tax the living daylights out of us and force a massive transfer of wealth on the basis of information that has been proven to be suspect on more than one occasion.

The polar bears are not dying en masse

The himalayan glaciers are not melting as quickly as the head of the IPCC would have us believe. Neither is Greenland apparently

The emails were doctored and the perps got caught out

The hockey stick graph was discredited

James Hansens research was funded to a large extent by a foundation set up and funded by the wife of Senator John Kerry...he who is great mates with one Al Gore. Cosy.

etc etc etc

The science quite simply is not settled, but the problem is that when anybody challenges the "climate church" a rain of fire and brimstone descends upon them.

by powerdownkiwi | 9th Aug 11, 9:00am 1312837247

Kermie - how does it feel to spend every day with someone else's hand buried orifically up you, and someone else doing the scripting?

Seriously, the joke is that what we have been warning of, is happening all around you.

Attacking messengers won't change that one iota.

by Kermit The Frog | 9th Aug 11, 10:57am 1312844270

PDK thats pretty rich - the climate change lobby (including our very own Steven) attack anyone who dares disagree with them.

I had 9 years of Helens hand up me and didnt enjoy it one bit....and now she's at the UN which is driving the whole climate change agenda. Go figure.

by steven | 9th Aug 11, 11:14am 1312845247

When I see a lie, a half-truth, taking something out of context, exaggerating or simply making things up I will call ppl on it...

Its known as debating and not standing aside for ppl with political agendas and voodoo economics to let them run a amok.

regards

by Kermit The Frog | 9th Aug 11, 11:23am 1312845780

"a lie, a half-truth, taking something out of context, exaggerating or simply making things up "

A charge that can be levelled at both sides of the debate Steven....not just the so called deniers

There is also a difference between calling someone on something and calling them silly emotive names

by steven | 9th Aug 11, 11:56am 1312847784

Difference is I can point to (and do) real scientists and real peer reviewed papers, data etc etc...ppl can do their own reading.

While the pro-AGW ppl are by no means perfect, the preponderence of mis-truth comes from the denier side.....and in fact there is virtually no, if any science on the denier side, its all politics and voodoo economics....anybody who looks at such should be able to figure that out by themselves.

regards

by Kermit The Frog | 9th Aug 11, 12:35pm 1312850113

Righto. So there wasnt even one single fib in "An Inconvenient Truth" then ?

by steven | 9th Aug 11, 1:44pm 1312854296

As I said and I will repeat it for those who need such things repeatly repeated.

"While the pro-AGW ppl are by no means perfect"

Otherwise it seems its black and white on issues for you....meanwhile in the real world there are a lot of shades of grey.....

regards

by Kermit The Frog | 9th Aug 11, 1:49pm 1312854568

Steven I am pleased you have finally acknowledged some of the shortcomings of the undeniers.

Those rioters in London are causing a lot of pollution with all those fires ... perhaps you could give them a darn good talking to about the perils of climate change ?

by steven | 9th Aug 11, 11:51am 1312847494

"I had 9 years of Helens hand up me and didnt enjoy it one bit....and now she's at the UN which is driving the whole climate change agenda. Go figure."

Which is simply untrue....unless you can show us a picture of HC's hand embedded, I think I'll call you on that one.

Funny thing is while you complain about Labour (or maybe simply Govn), the rabid right are pillaging you left right and centre.

regards

by Kermit The Frog | 9th Aug 11, 12:31pm 1312849884

Oh dear Steven. You really are a serious wee thing.

Peer review is supposed to at least be a bit independent...doesnt count if its your wife, husband, Mum, best mate etc.

Hows that chap who wrote the story about the dead polar bears getting on these days ?

by steven | 9th Aug 11, 1:48pm 1312854530

Hence why denier work doesnt get into any notable publications.... "Peer review is supposed to at least be a bit independent...doesnt count if its your wife, husband, Mum, best mate etc."

regards

by Kermit The Frog | 9th Aug 11, 1:52pm 1312854742

Which leads me back to the bloke who claimed the polar bears were dying....who is now under investigation.

Who peer reviewed his work ? hint ..it wasnt his Mum.

by Frazcam | 8th Aug 11, 1:45pm 1312767931

Hey Steven, you would have to have lived there to believe it - and not being able to fly the Silver Fern, because it offended people. I don't think the guy's comments were racist or red necked - now back to the WW Economy

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 1:50pm 1312768205

I was born in the UK, and lived in Tooting and Balham London, for 10 years....had friends who lived in Brixton....been there quite a bit.

regards

by Chairman Moa | 8th Aug 11, 1:54pm 1312768498

"I was born in the UK" Now that's explained it all!

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 1:57pm 1312768645

Ah but I saw the light and came here...

;]

regards

by David B | 8th Aug 11, 2:43pm 1312771383

A whinging Pom. Bwhahahahahahahaha. That explains all! Another Johnny come-lately trying to tell Kiwis and New Zealand what to do. Dude, your battles belong in the UK, not here.

Pommie go home!

by Vanderlei Luxemburgo | 8th Aug 11, 2:49pm 1312771764

oh david you're embarassing yourself

by David B | 8th Aug 11, 2:53pm 1312772026

I'm following your lead, dear!

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 3:03pm 1312772594

Double post

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 3:07pm 1312772844

Not a Pom.

My battle with the UK is long over.....I could see the writing on the wall many years ago. Like I said before, 7billion ppl and the planet can only feed at most 2billion. We have 4million in a country the size of Britain and they have 70million odd and a 22mile piece of water so their chances are not too hot.

Im a NZer, just like anyone else with a NZ passport....I get the same terms and conditions and just 1 vote...

regards

by David B | 8th Aug 11, 3:22pm 1312773737

Yes that's all true, but you have no history here, Steven. You don't have the dirt of this country running through your veins. No manu whenua. And that's the difference. I know that that is not a popular opinion and many try to deny that such a thing is important, exists, or in anyway matters. But it does. It's both real and it makes a big difference. New Zealand is an expression of, and is grounded in the collective consciousness and history of its people. Not it's foreign immigrants. But of course the immigrants can’t (or don’t want to ) see that.

by goNZ | 8th Aug 11, 3:44pm 1312775078

Yeah - a lot of envy too,plus crap weather probably dosent help. Tourists go over there for a week and dont see the sun at all. Stuff like" the planet can only feed 2 billion people" from steven & co reminds me of the theory behind The Great Irish Potato Famine

they forgot where they planted them !

by Kunst | 8th Aug 11, 3:45pm 1312775152

Another “secret menu” you just cooked up for us David, but I like it. Please, let us know a little bit more about the ingredients - why immigrants don't have the dirt of this country running through your veins. No manu whenua, which makes you so different David ?

by David B | 8th Aug 11, 4:56pm 1312779361

And where were you born, Kunst? Switzerland is that right? The same could be said of you. Another Johnny-come lately telling Kiwis and New Zealand what to do! Just as Steven's battles belong in the UK, yours belong (if that’s the right word for a Swiss) in Switzerland.

Why don’t you guys go back to your own countries and sort them out first before you come down here with your ‘European’ ideas and try to sort ours out?

by KW John | 8th Aug 11, 5:04pm 1312779848

Just like to add myself to the list you appear to be compiling....

I seem to remember that you considered anyone who had worked overseas to also be eligible (correct me by all means)...

Anyone not on this list?

by Kunst | 9th Aug 11, 12:48am 1312807737

David, every two years I go back to Switzerland and sort them out – a few are still alive – a little bit more then 7.6 million – but without sorting them, it could be more, especially corrupt, greedy banksters, polies & arogant Swiss Germans - like me.

by Gummy Bear Hero | 9th Aug 11, 1:20am 1312809654

Walter , you have no reason ( well , not more than a hundred or so ) to feel defensive or embarrassed by your Swiss heritage ........

....... hold your head up high , walk tall , and spit into the faces of the critics that it was your country who gifted to the world the infinte pleasures of cuckoo-clocks and of yodelling .....

Lay ee odl lay ee odl lay hoo hoo ........

And Kiwis' contribution to human betterment ? ..... lumps of butter ! ... Ha !!!

by steven | 9th Aug 11, 8:42am 1312836146

Of course if we took back all our European ideas, the previous set of invaders would still be living in mud huts...

regards

by Elley | 9th Aug 11, 9:01am 1312837272

Gosh, I'm almost speechless. Is this comment for real DavidB? Don't you (and Iconoclast) think it's actually a good thing that so many immigrants are well enough integrated and interested in NZ to even bother taking part in debates on this site? I'd have thought there'd be more cause for concern if it wasn't the case.

Btw, seeing the % of "real" Kiwis deserting their home country for Oz, I wonder who'd pay taxes, and others' benefits, if not for us (dirty immigrants).

by Frazcam | 8th Aug 11, 4:31pm 1312777865

Trouble is David, we are ALL immigrants to NZ, as up until a few hundred years ago NZ was just a barron rock. It is a bit immature to slate someone, even Steven, who just because he wasn't born here isn't the same as you, in terms of his New Zealand-ness. Some people believe the Chinese were the first to 'land in NZ' - that would make us both immigrants - unless the B in your name stood for Blee etc.

I believe that to be honest as NZers we are the last people to talk about history as ours is so short.

One other thing David, should True, earth blooded NZers accept benefits from taxes paid by Immigrants to the IRD?

by David B | 8th Aug 11, 4:41pm 1312778514

No we are not all immigrants here, frazcam. I was born here. I am not an immigrant. My parents were born here. My ancestry in this country goes back to the 1820s. I had a great grandparent who fought in the land wars. Maori have lived in this country for centuries. Immigrants are living people who were born somewhere else and then came here. And that's not me.

The only immaturity is the failure by some to acknowledge that history and place of birth actually matter and are the drivers of identity. A New Zealander is not a person who was born in South Africa and came here in 1990. Or an American, a Chinaman, or a Pom.

If you want to take you approach to its natural conclusion then we are all Africans. And that is patently absurd.

by iconoclast | 8th Aug 11, 5:04pm 1312779859

Atta'boy Doctor David. Say-it-as-it-really-is. I've said it before. The majority of poster's in this forum-community here are blow-ins and not backwards in coming forward with their opinions, re-posting long tracts from UK newspapers.

by Kunst | 8th Aug 11, 5:59pm 1312783184

I can see and feel it David, during one of the many wars one of your grand - grand mothers was for a short time and by accident laying beneath a strong Maori with dirt in his veins also. That’s great - that’s where you probably got your fighting and cooking up skill from.

by steven | 8th Aug 11, 4:45pm 1312778740

But then all I said was where I was born.....not where my parents came from or where they are now....

You see you jump to conclusions....

regards

by Christov | 8th Aug 11, 5:10pm 1312780255

Boy this has all got a bit silly.....I'm from Earth...I suspect somewhere down the line my lineage will be second class citizens on their new Planet.

by Gummy Bear Hero | 8th Aug 11, 11:49pm 1312804161

T-A-K-E M-E T-O Y-O-U-R L-E-A-D-E-R , E-A-R-T-H C-I-T-I-Z-E-N ! ...

. I-T I-S T-I-M-E T-O R-E-C-A-L-L T-H-E A-N-D-R-O-I-D Y-O-U K-N-O-W A-S " H-I-C-K-E-Y " ..........

....... phsssk : bleeeeeeep ......

by Christov | 9th Aug 11, 7:49am 1312832953

Affirmative..GBH...it is clear the droid is malfunctioning as it keeps waving it's arms wildly with a repetitive .........WARNING.!.WARNING !...WILL SMITH...ALIEN DEBT...APPROACHING...WARNING...!

I'm sure that mantra had a title track...hmmmm...lemmmeeseenow.

by Christov | 9th Aug 11, 7:55am 1312833330

Footnote GBH infuture please use the R-O-I-D's code name H--E-M-O-R-R.

that is all pssssk. ..gleeb.

by Christov | 9th Aug 11, 11:49am 1312847348

Maybe have a lookie see at Walter too GBH while you got the toolkit out...just to make sure he's O'K......I mean you've now seen the mayhem when someone from those parts goes on the Amok.....n he's been brooding for a while now.

by Gummy Bear Hero | 9th Aug 11, 2:44pm 1312857847

.... last that I heard of the venerable Walter , he was sitting in a corner , alternatively yodelling , and going " cuckoo cuckoo " ......

Kaikoura eventually does that , even to the most hardened souls ......

..... now , where's that other frigging malfunctioning android , the Chicken-Little HICKEY model , got to ?

by David B | 9th Aug 11, 3:11pm 1312859503

Gummy, I thought that model had been discontinued?

by David B | 9th Aug 11, 3:12pm 1312859537

Gummy, I thought that model had been discontinued?

by Christov | 9th Aug 11, 12:45pm 1312850749

Oh bloody hell another droids on the blink or GBH gone walkabout again.

i'd better get back to my Export Incentive Tax pamphlet.

lemmeseenow....Gross earnings...dah ..dah dum...er.....

by goNZ | 8th Aug 11, 3:49pm 1312775369

an atheist confesses!

by Frazcam | 8th Aug 11, 2:10pm 1312769448

So how old when you came to NZ??? I lived there for 38 years and believe me, those spectacles of yours must be extremely rose coloured if you couldn't see what the country was like. I also have friends in the Met who have said that policing in London is like trying to fence with both hands tied behind their back.

by goNZ | 8th Aug 11, 2:28pm 1312770535

speaking of wanton vandalism - who is paying legal costs for these hoods that did the Waihopai job ? are they poms too?

A hearing is underway in Wellington against the three activists who caused more than a million dollars worth of damage to the Waihopai spy base.

The Crown is chasing Adrian Leason, Peter Murnane and Sam Land for $1.2 million in damages caused to the Government's satellite structure near Blenheim in 2008.

The three men were last year found not guilty by a jury on charges of burglary and wilful damage after slashing one of the satellite domes with a sickle.

The hearing is set down for one day in the High Court.

by powerdownkiwi | 8th Aug 11, 2:35pm 1312770916

same folk who have to clean up after the mining industry.

You sure you want to get into the kitchen?

by Vanderlei Luxemburgo | 8th Aug 11, 2:55pm 1312772104

ok gonz how about we have an open debate about what that "dome" actually does?

there was a distinct lack of disclosure in that case. let's have it out in the open

by goNZ | 8th Aug 11, 3:04pm 1312772644

Id be keen- maybe later today when the Drones have landed

by Vanderlei Luxemburgo | 8th Aug 11, 3:46pm 1312775180

gonzo you're named after a muppet, yet you argue like a clown.

which is it?

if you're going to throw reactionary conservative talking points around that's fine, but your lack of sensible answers makes actually debating the facts with you impossible.

by powerdownkiwi | 8th Aug 11, 4:29pm 1312777795

That's what spinmeisters are trained to do.

Maybe we should call him Gonzoebbels?

Thanks, though, VL. I'll never see a post of his without visualising the wee Muppet with that awful nose.....

by goNZ | 8th Aug 11, 1:52pm 1312768362

thats a bit harsh on the leader of the MunnaParta

by Christov | 8th Aug 11, 8:51pm 1312793473

Well that all got a bit silly really....yes yes too silly too silly....and now a man with three buttocks.....Mr. Thompson ..er that chair comfy..?

by waymad | 8th Aug 11, 1:30pm 1312767035

Coupla things.

Read MoM who is one of the best unsung analysts of the US scene - she's not impressed. And those freight loadings don't look great...

And the rioting/Fin de siècle meme - old news, chaps and chapesses. It's the Northern late summer, Youff unemployment rates at 40% plus, tax rates well north of That, little hope and less cash. Still, they Are paid for Existing.....

T'was Kipled years ago:

"As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man --

There are only four things certain since Social Progress began --

That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,

And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire --

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins

When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins

As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn

The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!"

(Rudyard Kipling, final verse from 'Gods of the Copybook Headings' - 1919)

Fasten yer seltbelts..