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Wednesday's Top 10 at 10: Proof tax cuts don't actually boost GDP, they just increase inequality; Population outflow from China's 'ghost cities; Dilbert

Wednesday's Top 10 at 10: Proof tax cuts don't actually boost GDP, they just increase inequality; Population outflow from China's 'ghost cities; Dilbert
This daily collection of links and comment was previously sponsored by NZ Mint. We'd welcome a new sponsor.

Here's my Top 10 links from around the Internet at 10 am today.

As always, we welcome your additions in the comments below or via email to bernard.hickey@interest.co.nz.

See all previous Top 10s here.

My must reads today are #2 and #7 on the challenges for China. There are plenty and it's not a simple story of boom or bust. 

1. The American outlier - US and British economists Facundo Alvaredo, Anthony Atkinson, Thomas Piketty, and Emmanuel Saez have written a paper trying to put growing income and wealth inquality into an international context. 

The chart below showing how dramatic the change is in the United States and the connection between cuts in top tax rates and increasing inequality is interesting. New Zealand has cut its top tax rates too, but the rise in inequality hasn't been nearly as dramatic. 

They also find little connection between economic growth rates and lower tax rates, which is a shibboleth of the Rogernomics/Reagonomics/Thatchernomics revolution and was the major reason cited for New Zealand's big tax switch in 2010.

They also find CEO pay is not linked to company performance and rose sharply as tax rates fell. 

If we look at the aggregate outcomes, we find no apparent correlation between cuts in top tax rates and growth rates in real per capita GDP. Countries that made large cuts in top tax rates such as the United Kingdom or the United States have not grown significantly faster than countries that did not, such as Germany or Switzerland.

This lack of correlation is more consistent with a story that the response of pre-tax top incomes to top tax rates is due to increased bargaining power or more individualized pay at the top rather than increased productive effort. Naturally, cross-country comparisons are bound to be fragile. However, the regression analysis using the complete time-series data since 1960, shows that the absence of correlation between economic growth and top tax rates is quite robust.

By and large, the bottom line is conomic growth and top tax rates have all grown at roughly the same rate over the past 40 years—in spite of huge variations in tax policies. More specifically, international evidence shows that current pay levels for chief executive officers across countries are strongly negatively correlated with top tax rates even controlling for firm’s characteristics and performance, and that is stronger in firms with poor governance. This finding also suggests that the link between top tax rates and pay of CEOs is likely to be due to bargaining effects.

2. Perma-bears and stopped clocks - Here's Michael Pettis latest musing via Economonitor on the structural reform necessary in China and an ongoing battle between bullish economists and politicians who say China will never slow down, and bears who say a slowdown (or  even a collapse) is possible.

Pettis is more nuanced. He sees a slowdown without a collapse. 

For many years before 2007-9 a few analysts have warned that rising consumer credit in the US and peripheral Europe was unsustainable. They warned that rising debt to support misallocated investment in China was also unsustainable. They warned that soaring US mortgages backed by little more than the hope that land prices could only rise would lead to a real estate crisis. They warned that commodity-exporting countries that did not hedge their bets would find themselves in serious trouble when commodity prices collapsed.

Of course you could not have had a bubble unless the majority of analysts disagreed with these warnings, and most analysts did indeed disagree. So what happened when the warnings turned out to be right? Obviously enough the mistaken bulls publicly acknowledged that their models were incorrect and promised to hit the economic history books so that they never again would be so foolish.

Just kidding. What actually happened is that the former bulls immediately trotted out the stopped-clock analogy. The reason the worriers turned out to be right, they earnestly explained, is that they are perma-bears, and as everyone knows a stopped clock will always be right twice a day. This doesn’t mean, however, that models used by the worriers were right and the models used by the bulls were wrong, so of course there is not need for the bulls to change their models.

As China’s growth continues to slow and as its debt problems become obvious to even the most bullish, the stopped clock analogy is working overtime.

3. Just slower - Pettis sees China's growth slowing to 3-4%.

There are other far more likely alternatives for China that involve neither perpetual double-digit growth nor collapse. For example, I have been skeptical about the sustainability of the Chinese growth model since at least 2006-7 but I have never argued that China would collapse, let alone collapse within six months.

My argument is that China’s growth model, which is not at all unique and for which there are many historical precedents, is usually wealth enhancing in its early stages, and then becomes wealth destroying once capital is systematically misallocated. When that happens, debt rises at an unsustainable pace until we reach debt capacity limits, in which case the country will have a debt crisis. I have usually estimated that it would reach debt capacity limits around 2016-18 but now I think it is likely to happen earlier.

However I never believed China would hit those limits, or have a debt crisis, because I was fairly sure that Beijing would begin adjusting earlier. It is during the adjustment period that I expected growth to drop sharply, to 3-4% as the upper limit.

4. The problem with fuel subsidies - It's not so much of a problem here, but fuel subsidies sure are a problem elsewhere for rich and poor alike, Mike Dolan discusses here at Economonitor. 

Ooor households account for only a small part of total fuel use. As a result, on average, consumers in the richest 20 percent of the population get six times as much total benefit from fuel subsidies as do those in the poorest 20 percent. The specific amount varies by fuel.

For example, vehicle ownership is low among poor households in poor countries, so they get little direct benefit from a reduction in gasoline prices. On the other hand, since poor households are less likely to be connected to the electric grid, they account for a larger share of kerosene consumption and get more benefit from subsidies of that fuel.

The following chart from the IMF study provides estimates of the distribution of subsidy benefits for four important fuels. 

5. Too many cities? - Urbanisation of China is still seen as a future driver of growth in China, with anything from 260 million to 400 million people still yet to move from the country to the cities. 

Kate McKenzie from FTAlphaville has written an excellent piece on whether China's build-it-first-and-they-will come approach is working to urbanise China. It may just be creating more ghost cities.

China’s build-first approach hasn’t always gone drastically wrong. As the WSJ notes, “the towering new Pudong business district” was empty when built a decade ago, but later became a “symbol of China’s success”.

On the other hand, is it Pudong that is the exception and Ordos that is the norm, or at least a more common scenario in China’s many smaller cities? Hard data is hard to come by, but the WSJ asserts that the build-now-wait-for-growth strategy has “thrown up empty suburbs and ghost cities like Tieling New City across the country”.

6. Population outflow? - McKenzie cites China Danke's Mao Dajing in this piece explaining how China's urbanisation works. It suggest envelopment of rural populations rather than migration from the country to the city. In some cities there has actually been population outflow. 

While common sense assumes China’s urbanisation pertains to rural people migrating to cities, the reality is quite different. Government official data shows that only a third of the newly urbanised population is migrant workers from the countryside. 

The remaining two thirds are mostly locally urbanised people, i.e., the city area has expanded to where they live. With more and better job opportunities in higher-tier cities, many lower-tier cities have actually been experiencing a net outflow of population while land sales there increased rapidly exacerbating the housing oversupply. 

Among the 287 cities that we managed to collect data on, only 97 (or 1/3rd) have more permanent residents than registered residents (or “local people”, i.e., those with a hukou (formal residence registration)). This means two-thirds or 190 of those cities may have experienced population net outflow.

7. Big problems in little India - Bloomberg reports India has just had to introduce import controls to deal with a current account deficit blowout and a rupee slump.

India's current account deficit is 4.8% of GDP. New Zealand's is forecast to go higher than that, but apparently foreign investors still love us and our currency. No worries then...

8. Back in charge again - The emerging economies have become the submerging economies of late, the Economist's freeexchange blog points out helpfully with this excellent chart showing developed economies are again contributing more to global growth than emerging economies for the first time since 2007.

The more important point is that advanced economies really shouldn't be contributing more to growth. Emerging markets account for a respectable chunk of global output now: more than half on a PPP basis and about 40% using market exchange rates. And they have vast room for catch-up growth; real per capita output in the emerging world remains just 17% that of advanced economies. It is hard to see how the emerging world can continue to raise its living standards relative to rich economies without contributing more to global growth.

But it's worth remembering that for much of the past century it didn't; catch-up in some emerging economies was offset by regression in others. 

9. More on China's urbanisation - This Bloomberg piece on the problems faced on the ground in China's great urbanisation drive is good. 

China’s plan to encourage hundreds of millions of rural residents to settle in cities to boost growth faces opposition from local governments, according to Li Tie, an official with the nation’s top economic planning agency.

Officials, researchers and company executives highlighted challenges at an urbanization forum in Beijing on Aug. 10. They cited the strain on local-government finances, the dangers of overbuilding and the cost of scrapping the hukou, or residence permit, system that denies migrants the welfare, health and education benefits of city dwellers.

10. Totally The Daily Show's John Oliver on Australia's election campaigning.

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113 Comments

Hey Bernard - you missed this one - would've made a better #10;

 

http://www.3news.co.nz/Key-NZers-care-more-about-snapper-than-GCSB/tabid/817/articleID/308665/Default.aspx

 

Touchy, touchy.

 

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Well, that certainly exhausted a chunk of the electorate's goodwill. It's such a comfort when politicians gift us their stupidity - thankfully those made of sterner stuff are elsewhere for the moment.

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Muldoon without the snarl or the dobermann .. same ridicule

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Wow.... was he having a bad day..??

That was a little bit shocking to listen to....

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A tetchy PM. But his basic point that more New Zealanders care about the snapper quota than the GCSB Bill is actually probably true.

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The snapper quota only applies to those in the top of the North Island. You must pay attention to too much media garbage to be led astray by such nonsense.

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Exactly Real. All the PM has done is make informed people very curious as to why he would try and divert attention to a topic like snapper quota which doesn't affect the majority.  So what is the PM hiding from?

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Media garbage? Actually I was listening to the PM... And I still think it's odds on that he's correct. There's a lot of people in the top half of the North Island who like fishing...

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Unless you were listening to the PM make his comments at the venue, you were listening to him through a media outlet that had selected this particular stupid comment soundbite. You chose to listen to this soundbite after a media outlet had filtered the information from all the other information available. So I consider you to be a victim of that media outlet infotainment. That you claim to believe the PMs comment .....  

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Recreational fishers could have their daily snapper catch slashed from nine to just three fish in Auckland and the upper North Island.

 

The drastic proposal is part of plans to save the snapper population which has collapsed alarmingly in the waters around Auckland, the Bay of Plenty and Northland.

 

It has fanned widespread anger among thousands of recreational fishers, who are outraged there is little change to commercial quotas. Read more

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Except all that you say but would ad that obviously the PM knows this as well so you are back to square one.

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Maybe you can think that as a fellow insider, 'look at the stupid people out there yes of course they care more about snapper quota than their own freedom'. Maybe it is part of that whole media insiders captured by the ruling elites in some sort of unspoken bargin. Anyway we all have a tendancy to look up and mimic our masters/betters rather than look out.

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Your birthright (freedom from undue surveillance) for a mess of pottage (snapper), perhaps?

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geez Gareth...tough crowd...! well  I for one was bloody outraged bout my snapper allocation being diminished while Corporate pillagers go about their business uninterrupted......and yes it was a smoke screen  by Key n Co to act as if they had caved to public opinion, when all the while they knew they'd settle at something more realistic and appear  magnanamously benevolent at the same time assuring the dumb fisho's vote a a result. 

 Yes chaps and chapoinas, the snapper issue was more important to Joe lunchbox than the GCSB  defiling the very basis of their constitutional rights...why ..?

Because the hit them where it hurts , in the recreational sense of self reward for labors delivered in this life .

 No different to 6 oclock closing . it got personal  .

While Garreth may view the soundbite as there thereabout accurate...( and I agree), the stink coming off the smug little bleeder  as he triumphantly announced it was umistakeably diversionary.

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Why would you think that, Gareth? Please explain.

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What got to me was how Key is dismissive and trivialises the whole issue by relating it to recreational fishermen and the snapper quota...

Some pretty intelligent people have made some pretty reasonable comments.

http://www.3news.co.nz/An-expert-who-supports-the-GCSB-bill/tabid/367/articleID/308832/Default.aspx

 

 

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Tell you what, Key looks like someone suffering from some multiple personality disorder whenever he is questioned about the GCSB and I will tell why I think that is so.

Key is up to his armpits in the whole Dotcom thing and probably more than that, too, think Warner Bros think TPPA. On the face of it you would wonder, well, so what if he did know who KDC was before the raid. In my view, he not only knew, he quite likely was front and centre at the change of heart to allow the guy residency, to set him up. 

The GCSB is one hell of an Achilles heel for Key.

Every time something sticky has come up for National, in comes the cavalry in the shape of Ms Bennett with some punitive welfare reform or other. Now, if you were to weigh up the weight of such reforms against the sticky issue of the day, you have a doozer of a pot of glue. Snapper quota has been thrown for good measure, talk about laying down the false aniseed trail, to distract the hounds

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Yes, Hollow Men, eh?

 

If he is found to have known of KDC (which he denied during that select committee hearing), let alone is found to have been donkey deep in the whole affair - well, there goes his knighthood.

 

I'm absolutely positive that is more of a worry for him than our freedom, that's for sure.

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by Roelof | 14 Aug 13, 1:05pm

Wow.... was he having a bad day..??
That was a little bit shocking to listen to....

 

Yes, without doubt and so shocking and demonstrably lacking in statesman like gravitas Fran O'Sullivan has taken one for the team and put lipstick on the pig.

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dp

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Yep...

"To Soddy, real wealth has to obey the laws of physics whereas money and debts are merely important social constructs. Paradoxically, neoclassical economics seems to inhabit a parallel universe where wealth can be created at will, money is irrelevant, yet debts are a tangible reality!"

regards

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"It is in fact an illogical and deeply immoral cult acting as a propaganda machine for certain (already) wealthy interests."

 

Interest.co.nz treads a fine line on this count at times with the obsession with property.

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.If interest rates keep climbing in the States it's going to get interesting, Look what a difference a small rise makes

https://www.rabobankamerica.com/newsletter/consumer/summer2013/around-the-house.jsp?cust=wc

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The real blood on the floor will be US Bonds. A game of chicken, own them and be safe (relative to elsewhere), own them too long and exit late and get wiped out.

regards

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"exit late and get wiped out". So what doesn't that apply to these days?

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Property.

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... yup , best to own property and shares ... the only two investment classes to yield positive returns over long time frames ...

 

Bonds and Gold need timing to come out ahead ....  as do options , mezzanine financing , reverse negative inverted straddles , CDO's and Gummy Bear futures ......

 

Stick to property & shares : So easy to get it right .

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question on #1

the growth rates of countries like the UK and USA that have made significant tax cuts may have been no greater than countries like Germany and Switzerland that didn't. But perhaps the growth rates of countries like the USA would have been much lower if they didn't cut? 

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Interest. co.nz seems to focus a lot on what is going outside NZ. Fair enough its important but what about some review of the front running that goes on in NZ before a companies results are published.

Sky City for example - down solidly yesterday, down about 10% last month. Poor results out just now. Insider trading anyone? An investigation here I am sure would show we are as dirty as anything that has been reported overseas. NZ 100% Pure ? Most uncorrupt country in the world?  Lets have some home grown reporting. Kiwis so dumb la!

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Economist Richard Duncan has put up an email exchange on his website that is well worth a read.

 

"Because the US economy is so weak, US imports are not growing. US imports are THE driver of global growth. Consequently, the growth in world trade is slowing to a standstill. US exports are not growing. And China’s export growth is very weak. More importantly, China’s imports have contracted year on year for the last two months. That means that China is now adding nothing to the growth of the rest of the world."

 

And some obligatory housing talk: 

"The question is about sustainability. If home prices go up, then people will have to take out larger mortgages to finance them. That will cause Total Credit to grow. That hasn’t happened yet. Total mortgage debt is still contracting slightly. But, it could happen.

But, what then? Will the people be able to pay the interest on their higher mortgage debt? They couldn’t in 2008.

So it comes down to the growth in Real Disposable Income. Here’s the problem. During the first half of 2013 it only rose 0.5% compared with the first half of 2012. Disposable income is not growing because globalization is putting very strong downward pressure on wages.

As I see it, unless Disposable Income increases, then a higher level of debt/credit would be unsustainable. It’s hard to see Disposable Income rising sharply any time soon. That does not mean that we might not have a very big boom/bubble over the next 3 to 4 years if QE continues on a very large scale."

 

Energy features in the mix as well, cue Steven...

 

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oh Im predictable....

bugger

:P

but yes 4~6% US GDP heralded the last 5 out of 6? US recessions.  The EU seems to be more energy efficient, maybe 6~8% for a recession to kick in....except they are probably still in one. So yes sure ppl have 0.5% more and petrol costs are where? and going where?

The headwind recovering economies face are truely something to cool things...Im sure it will end well....

;]

regards

 

 

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It is the lots of little imputs that make this place :-) While I get the broad picture, I for one am glad you keep your eye on the energy numbers.

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Bernard,

"Fontera pipe source of botulism"

Hmmmm, so how can a stainless steel pipe get a dose of botulism? Whatch out it might catch the flue next time.

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yes and they found the guilty pipe very quickly , I what sort of sentence it will get?

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The core of the problem - just out

The contamination was confined to 38 metric tonnes of whey protein concentrate (WPC80) manufactured at Fonterra's Hautapu plant near Cambridge and first picked up at a plant in Australia.

 

The product was manufactured in May 2012
The contamination was first notified in March 2013
Final tests confirmed 30 July 2013

The contamination was not picked up internally by Fonterra Hautapu

 

The questions now are
 
How do they know it was one particular pipe
What testing procedures do they have
How long does it take to do a test
Months, Weeks? Days?

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Bernard - No 1 is hardly proof that tax cuts don't actually boost GDP.......You are making assumptions again and finding information pieces that support your opinion.  There is absolutely no proof and far too many variables would have to be considered before any conclusion could be reached that would provide proof.

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Well we also have things like the Bush tax cuts, no booming economy there.

Really from your argument, nothing is sure, ever.  Reality you look at what evidence you have and go with the best probability, certianly data and results show far better success than gut feel or political blinkers. Take expansionary austerity, a clear failure on an almost biblical scale.

regards

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The logical answer I believe was linked to a couple of days ago here: The super rich are saving 37% of their money. So it is tax cuts for the super rich that do not help the economy; in fact they pretty clearly hurt it in that assuming the effect is higher taxes for everyone else than would otherwise apply, the spending power of those who would surely spend more of their money is reduced.

Tax cuts at the bottom end of the income scale would increase spending, then demand, and so production. They would have been a good idea in the US and Europe, in my opinion, but politics got in the way. Here the Nats favoured the rich, and no-one seemed to challenge the neo liberal dogma at the time.

I note that the Huffington Post link shows New Zealand as the 10th most unequal country on the planet, along with a nice photo of an America's Cup yacht. I actually doubt that to be the case; but who knows.

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Huffington post did get it wrong in calling NZ 10th worst among countries. We are 10th worst in after tax inequality in the OECD.

 

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I agree with John Key about the GCSB. 

This legislation is for our protection , and given the loss of life in WW1and WW2 I would have thought it was important to us

If you have nothing to hide you have no problem.  

All the hue and cry is nothing more than left wing rabble rousing

 

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And there's me thinking you were Libertarian.

It's easy to say "if you have nothing to hide......". but just who would this Government back if say a large Chinese or US corporate wanted to mine your back yard or an area that had special significance. If you were opposed would you be having your communications spied on? You bet! On this outfit's track record they'd be doing whatever their foreign masters tell them.

This is an absurd over reaction to a non problem. Right through the Cold War we never had to put up with this kind of state surveilance, in fact, it reminds me of the stories we were told about the KGB from that era. 

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1984.

regards

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"Iff you haff nossink to hide zen you haff nossink to fear", thus spake George Goebbels

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.... no , I think that was Major Hochstetter of the Gestapo ..... from Hogan's Heroes ....

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Out of your depth here Boatman, situation normal mind you. Sounding very much like a Nazi as has been pointed out and I suspect you fancy yourself as a henchman. Have you ever served in a security force? Do you understand the requirements?

 

How about the declining quality in the legal system http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/business/5033713/Law-system-a-laughing-stock as the back stop to the spy capabilities?

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you talk about ww1 and ww2 and then use "if you've got nothing to hide' - a quote attributed to joseph goebbels.

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Which is who I meant, not George. By Joseph!

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Can't agree with you on this Boatman. It is thinking of those who fought and died in WW1 and WW2 as to why I am so opposed. Hitler implemented enormous amounts of legislation that had the most ghastly ramifications for the world. Lest we forget.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights of which NZ is a signatory was designed to specifically protect the individuals in each and every signatory country from ever being subjected to Government control and manipulation so that a repeat of WW2 could never happen again.

 

Everything Hitler did was legal - and the NZ'ers who fought and died did so to provide freedom. Don't ever take freedom for granted or you will lose it bit by bit. 

Also read some history pre WW2 and see just what was happening in Germany.

Nancy Wake known as White Mouse who wrote her story about her contribution to the French Resistance is a great read. She was a NZ who I think to this day has never been recognised for her contribution.

The only people that need spying on are those in Government, Bureaucratic and public servant positions. 

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The people that need spying on are the Politicians, Bureaucrats and Public Servants

Nice - has a nice ring to it

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... oooooh , you left out Penny , from the " Big Bang Theory " .... we really ought to spy on her .... a definite threat to NZ's biosecurity and Fonterra ..

 

Bags me be the one to install CCTV cameras in her apartment ..... pleeeeeeeeeeeease ...

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Abosobloodyutely....Penny....

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OK ... you can carry my swag of crimpers , coaxil cable strippers , and BNC connectors ....

 

.. .. but I'm first to check that there's no illicit botulism , Lake Taupo turtles , or rock snot in her lingerie drawer ....

 

Bring a box of tissues too , just in case ...

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GBH I don't want to watch her , I'm thinking of a more  emipheral encounter.

My wife's taken to giving me a pet name in the ...er you know....it's Baby Butter Butt.

I call her Penny.

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I knew you wife was quick .. but not that quick .. you'll have to make up for it with more slow horses

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She's slowing down iconoclast.....but that'll be the ratbait...ohhhhh  the ol grey mare she ain't what she used to be...tra la la la la tum teetum

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I smoke pot, when I can get it and have a free afternoon and a good book (okay, very rare configuration). So I'd like to hide that, behind a nom-de-plume in this instance. And no, not a dole bludger, paid $1389.87 tax this fortnight as it happens. We ALL have something to fear my friend, and I for one will defend your right to privacy despite your proclivity to screw mine.

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Hey let me know next time your getting it simbit......cause man ,I picked the wrong day to give up crack.

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What happens if Boatman (or Gummy Bear) are here under cover, no problem finding you from your IP address. Sleep well.

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... whew , Count .... that last batch of coke does keep one awake .... can't dream of Oprah's crack , now ...

 

Ah well , don't waste time , carry on tracking down the illicit scarfie .....

 

... if you hear a distant " whoop-whoop " of helicopter blades , don't panic , it's just the government ..... we're here to help you ....

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If you have nothing to hide you have no problem.

 

What's Key running from then?- let's get it out in the open - the GCSB boys broke the law for a while and had no intention of informing the public. An explanation is necessary and law passed without unseemly haste.

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Well I'm thinking of changing my wifi name too: GCSB surveillance monitoring- van 2.

 

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LOL, maybe I'll be van 4 then.....keep them guessing where 1 and 3 are.

LOL

regards

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It is the Corporate think  to seek  operations above the law or common law .....largely the reason is based purely on advantage to control or manipulate those who may become compromised.

 just in case you can't buy em off.

I suspect Russell Norman will be screened as a terrorist sympathiser. 

 The GCSB , I asure you will be used  to compromise any potential threat to this Administration political or otherwise.

9 cases a year my ass....you lying , arrogant smug little man.

How bout you start with Dunne...? oh sorry , you already did  ( not that the dodgy B didn't have it coming ) but to compromise someone who really has no place in being a Minister any longer ... just spells it out for everybody really.

 

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I do not understand why the opposition parties -Greens, Labour, NZ first, do not promise/ ensure there is some checks and balances on our power hungry Prime Ministers.

 

Surely kiwis have learnt that control freaks like Muldoon or Clark is not in any of our best interests.

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Try reading what the Green's are saying first...they are not happy about quite a few things.  Of course anyone can chery pick policies to suit themselves.

NB, yes our system does leave a PM with huge powers and with no senate to conter-check, hence why there is only 3 year terms.  In some ways better, look at the US system, if all 3 are democrate or Republican then really it makes no odds legislation gets passed anyway.  The good thing is I think Cngress and the Senate have1/2 getting voted in or out every 2 years...hence I like us only having 3 years.

 

regards

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I think its pretty clear there is a lot of pressure from  the USA for NZ to fall into line with their view that they are masters of the universe  and these measures are necesary to protect freedom loving people. Yeah Right! Its all about protecting the military industrial complex which now rules the USA. The haste to pass this bill is probably to legalise  the illegal spying that  is already  GCSB practice. Key is in danger of becoming a cardboard cutout Prime Minister if he continues to uncritically back a regime that condones the drone killing of innocent people 

 

 

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It also appears future aspirations of certain polticians are dependent on the sucess of being very close to the USA. This all comes down to meeting expressed obligation of being part of five eyes. Reminds me of Helen Clark, nearly everyone expected Government policy would assist her position after PM into the UN.  

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What a load of codswallop he's writing....its just drips. Really you have to think this uh journalist is disconnected from the real world, par for the course for the VIPs  (self appointed very imprtant ppl).

As a counter,

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.nz/2013/08/the-centre-cannot-hold.html

"The link between economic depression and far right extremism in the 1930s is also well documented. Yet I suspect there is a tendency to assume that this kind of thing only happens in ‘immature’ democracies.  This assumption is wrong, as both the Netherlands and the UK currently show."

"n the UK the Labour Party is in opposition. It seems their general tactic on issues like austerity or immigration is not to question the underlying assumptions on which government policy is based. Perhaps the idea is to avoid being branded as irresponsible (austerity) or out of touch (immigration), while hoping to retain the support of those who do strongly oppose government policy. This position has so far been tenable partly because there is no strong party to the left of Labour. We may have to wait until 2015 to see if this strategy is successful."

So sure let the VIPs believe they are right, meanwhile voters go elsewhere...kind of wonder if the Green's are doing so well here because of their left appeal while labour hug the centre. Of course WP is back in as well....

and also,

http://niesr.ac.uk/blog/underemployment-uk-update-david-blanchflower-gu…

"The concern is that if and when the recovery starts workers will raise their hours without there being a fall in the unemployment rate. No sign of recovery here."

  regards

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" What a load of codswallop he's writing ... its just drips " ....

 

..... lawdy lawdy , oh dearie me .... I went this close to peeing my Gummy nappies upon reading that .... gosh darn ....

 

It takes one to know one , doesn't it steven , IMHO  ..

  regards

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Is that a bit like how you could teach people physics for 20 years and they still won't get it.

 

http://www.albartlett.org/presentations/arithmetic_population_energy.ht…

 

Physics and economics, which one underwrites the other?

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That was the Austrians he was refering to.

regards

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.... Australians , not Austrians ! .... Milton Friedmann played hooker for the South Sydney Rabbitohs in the early 1990's .... or was that Mario Fenech ?

 

Either or , darned hard to follow their line of argument ...

regards

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The above paper piece has no Friedman in it IMHO.....its pure voodoo economics, a political construct...Capitalism has done so welll is the implication, when in fact its mega huge losses had to be socailised and no consquence of that mis-management resulted...and in fact worse they have been allowed to carry on.

 

regards

 

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Oh deary me Steven - you just don't understand do you. The Capitalists who had the mega losses (not really Capitalists are they when they get bailed out?) were actually bailed out by the other capitalists who operate in the system.

All the money ever generated needs business (Capitalists) to generate it in the first place. So when you talk about socialising the costs you need to remember where the front money comes from!

All Social spending would not happen if there weren't any capitalists. It's so funny how you always put the cart before the horse.

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LOL, certainly more than you do.

Capitalists lets get away from that term as really its a bit extreme.  So lets say "business ppl", they  dont generate money, they convert resources by producing goods from them for a profit. Bankers now maybe yes, they generate money for no real goods, arguably they are actually parasitic in nature, past a certain point. Of course social spending can happen, Cuba does it, not too many capitalists there.  Now I'll happily admit I wouldnt wish to live in Cuba, sort of, they have survived their peak oil event, the West hasnt.  As the saying goes it isnt over til the fat lady sings.

I wouldnt want to be in a capitalist/libertarian society either, no better and probably worse.  The right of others to leave someone starve to death in the gutter or die for lack of decent medical treatment isnt a society I'd wish to promote or be in. The "I'd rather be dead than red" brigade usually are the ones who expect you to be dead for them, not a lot of difference in the two extremes really.

regards

 

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The problem with socialists , Mr notaneconomist , is that you just can't fire them ....

 

.... they're so soppy and wet they'll never burn ....

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Ah GBH - you are very correct. Talking of soppy and wet......the cardboard cathedral.....started to crumble so I live in hope that if one can't fire them they may somewhat self-disintegrate.

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steven....   all the economic   ...isms are tainted. They are all corrupted and perverted into a political construct.

I like the word Creditism to describe the last 50 yr of Western economic life.... but that is still only a word.

Crony Capitalism is another word I like..

Powerism and Greedism are good...

MultiNationalism...

None of these words implicate or dismiss any of the Great Economic thinkers ..( and I include both Milton Friedman and Karl Marx...  keynes...Henry George...etc ).

Politics, power and Greed corrupt and pervert all .... isms

Just my view.

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Certainly true in the case of someone who refuses - steadfastly - to ascertain what underwrites money/incomes. There will always be those who seek to advance themselves. There will always be those who attempt to disguise/defend their self-advancement, with glib unsupported statements, denigration and/or spin.

 

Doesn't change the truth of the matter, though.

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It's oil , isn't it ! .... yup , you're referring to oil .... I knew it ... can always rely on good old PDK .... oil..... yes , that's the thing ..... of course it is .... oil..... yeah ...

 

.... what about oil , then ?

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Geez....thanks for clarfying that one GBH.....I would have hated to make an incorrect assumption on PDK's......um.....ah........whatever it is.....oh silly me.

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Have you considered how you would operate your business when fuel is say $3 a litre?  $4? or if its rationed?  ie risk and degree of and impact.  What PDK and I are saying is fossil fuel is going to get even more expensive and maybe even rationed. Now any competent business person should be doing risk management and mitigation if justified. Rather than just fit bigger pair of political blinkers because someone with a similar outlook says thats best.

In true libertarian fashion, I will leave that up to you.

regards

 

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Gary Romano has resigned from Fonterrible ....

 

... well , that's a start , I suppose ...

 

Anyone others willing to man-up , and seek a butter future elsewhere ?

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Cuddly Bear, how many heads rolled over the Roo in the Stew, when those mad Ozzies switched species.....

Hint: the inquiry report remains unpublished (we hear)....

 

 

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Henry .... has no one tull you , our country has a ZED in it just like Zimbabwe does ...

 

... first you have an execution , then a very short trial , and finally  a BBQ & a booze-up .....

 

Inquiry !!!! ..... tsk tsk .... you and Winnie Peters ..... have a coldie , mate ....

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z for

switzerland.com - Switzerland

www.switzerland.com/

not home of:

Oprah says incident no 'indictment' of Switzerland

(AFP) – 12 hours ago

LOS ANGELES, California — US chat show queen Oprah Winfrey says an alleged racist incident she suffered at a luxury boutique in Switzerland does not warrant an apology from the country.

Winfrey, who claims she was the subject of racism when a shop assistant refused to show her an expensive handbag, told journalists Monday in Los Angeles that it wasn't "an indictment against the country."

 

that would be a kangaroo court you are describing..

 

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$US 48 000 !!! ....... that Oprah surely has got an expensive handbag .... but gimmee that sorta munny , and I'd venture into her purse ...

 

.... I'd be freakin' surprised if there was a kangaroo in there , that really would be a scene out of Southpark ....

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For sure poor ol Gazza should have been thinking ....um, currently the only guy I see on T.V answering questions is me.....then asked himself how it was going .....and where the F was Theo.....then why suddenly his profile went from under the radar  to  target located.......

 Deary Me......aren't Corporations just beautiful to watch...such transparency can only passify the most cynical amoung us.

I still think they should have allowed Putin to hunt him in full commando.....that's how you mend trade relationships.

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Right on the mark there GBH.....RMA administrators ACC and a plethora of other little Government initiated serpents hiding in the deep crevices prefer slow hanging using a long rope.

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As a democracy we choose to have the RMA so our country doesnt turn into a cesspit with abandoned oil rigs and highly poluted waterways like the USA.

As a democracy we choose to have a publically funded healthcare system, which is also more efficient than a private one, both in numbers of ppl and outcomes.

As a democracy we choose to have ACC.

etc etc.

regards

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I fully agree with your comments Zanyzane the land supply constraints have been having enormous gains and there will be much more gain to be had yet.

 

The costs of the RMA are horrendous and the side effects on business trying to push through the RMA process can have dire consequences.

People forming Societies to try and bankrupt businesses trying to obtain Consents really riles me especially when there are absolutely no environmental effects. This means the RMA is a useless piece of legislation that does not function as was originally planned. No ackowledgment of NZBORA by Council staff is another area of contention. These staff know  they are beyond reproach.

 

 

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Hard to know twhere to start - but 'hogwash' will do.

 

The 'cost's of the 'RMA' are nowhere near the real costs (totally unaddressed) of environmental impact.

 

For instance, you would have to triage BAU to sequester carbon, to displace landfills, and retain true water-quality. To do any would cause a permanent 'recession', so we won't. The 'costs' if they reflected true impact, were always going to become prohibitive exponentially quickly - couldnt be any other way. The Nats are attempting to push-start exponential growth by chipping away at finite legislation; guaranteed a losing game.

 

The RMA as-planned was indeed useless - the Brundtland definition is fatally flawed - but even that got hijacked by the Nats in the post-Palmer days, with the inclusion of "present generations economic wellbeing'. Actually, it favours big money players, who can afford to scoop the pool of 'expert witnesses', all of whom require incomes from a small game.

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Your limited understanding of democracy is quite apparent.

Where is your proof that the public healthcare system is more efficient? And if the public healthcare system was capable of delivering a full service to all people there would not be a need for private healthcare. There are approximately 38 to 40% of the population who hold private healthcare insurance the last time I looked at the figuures and ACC also uses private health providers for surgery etc and all this indicates the system is not functioning efficiently or effectively for many people.

 

Again you show extremely poor understanding of the RMA and it's processes. I believe you are very naive if you think the RMA is protecting the environment and you fail to take into account other regulators and their processes.

 

ACC is a good concept but it fails approximately 20% of the people woh fall through the gaps. ACC is expensive and inefficient.  ACC also invests heavily which has had ramifications for business and tax payers such as the large losses that were experienced on National coming into power after Labours demise.

 

I would suggest that you crawl out from your nest and play on the private enterprise side of life in NZ and actually find out how things work and the ramifications of the failures of the above issues you think work so well. It is inexperienced naive people who vote for things they don't understand that ensure the nonsense we have on NZ remains.

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NZ and the UK's healthcare costs about 6~8% of GDP and everyone is covered.  US systems about 18% of GDP and growing at 7% per annum, 75% or less of americans covered.  US lower life expectancy.

Really if you cant be bothered looking at the basic data.

Sure we have private systems for those who can afford them...thats a freedom...if you have te money.  Interesting thing would be if you took that money and put it into the public system would that be better for NZ overall.  Also take a look at premiums once over 65, many ppl with private insurance drop it as an OAP, just when its needed most.

I would suggest you actually get off your farm in the boondocks and look out there in the real world, maybe even try working for large private eneterprises as I have.

regards

 

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As usual with Steven a little knowedge is a dangerious thing, we do not have full coverage and if it is not timely it often an't effective medical intervention. Lets see Steven on a waiting list and then he might understand the reality.

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No, you are talking absolute rubbish.  and as per normal absolutes, bacl or white, yes or no.  We do have "full coverage" in terms of you get care based on a priority.  Is it perfect and unlimited? no.  Is it better than just about any other system on offer? yes based on outcomes based on a Nation wide data and measured against OECD averages.

Lets look at the old US system, if you didnt have a policy and were not bankrupt there is no care, unless you turn up at A&E and thats even later in terms of so called timely.  Ive been on waiting lists, here in NZ. I and my family have also been looked after immediately with no concerns on the quality of care when truely urgent and life threathening. Ive also worked in the UK healthservice for 10 years and here for about 1 year, so actually I do know something about the UK style of public system.

Like I said, if its non-urgent or you wish to pay for faster treatment or have private treatment you certainly can. It is not a bottomless pit. I also think I said that OAPs cant afford the private care in old age due to its costs, yet these are the same ppl who wont contone extra tax in their working years and wont even discuss it raitionally...

regards

 

 

 

 

 

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... " bacl or white " .... is that a new colour , more politically correct than saying " black " ...

 

Or is it a Freudian slip to the medication , " baclofen " ..... used in treatment for spasticity and for alcoholism .....

 

... hmmmmmm ! .... on the tabs , are we ....... aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh !!!

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as per normal from you GBH, cant shoot the message have a go at the messenger.

regards

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As usual with Steven a little knowedge is a dangerious thing, we do not have full coverage and if it is not timely it often an't effective medical intervention. Lets see Steven on a waiting list and then he might understand the reality.

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What Steven is saying is pretty accurate, New Zealands healthcare system is not perfect but is way better than any other option.

 

Another piece of information is that 30% of private health care is administrative costs. So massive waste.

 

New Zealand as Steven said gets remarkable and proveable health outcomes from a moderate public health spend.

 

Even in the home of inappropriate adherance to the free market for all situations -the US, 50% of healthcare is provided by taxpayer funded systems.

 

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Steven - tell your story to those people who are awaiting surgery for hip, knees, ankle or other etc. The people who have to swallow pain killers all day just to get out of bed.

 

Most people who have private healthcare insurance do so because the know the public system is not reliable in provisioning. Personally I would go without a few long blacks at the local coffee shop or something similar so I could afford at a minimum surgery cover.

 

You make an assumption as to where I live and what I do. You are so full of yourself this morning.

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Its simple, why dont they have private insurance?  or pay for it themselves?  or agree for higher taxes for more care during their working lives?  Sure the public serice isnt ablack hole of provision. I have news for you neither is private provision. Its also note the case of doing without a few long blacks, way more expensive, private acre btw also has exclusions. many policies for instance dont allow for expensive drugs like hereceptin (or some such spelling) At least with Pharmac you would probably get 12 weeks treatment.

Im not sure what you mean by "minimum surgery cover"  The sums Ive seen suggest OAPs have to pay many thousands a year to get hip etc cover, probably passed the point of its cheaper to save the $s and pay for it if needed.  If on the other hand you have appendicitis you are in in an hour with a public system, been there done it.

Urgent surgery cover should be of no issue, certainly in my experience, now sure "nice to have" isnt, but then no one wants to pay for it.

Assumptions, well sure you assumed I have never worked for private enterprises so just who is un-justifiably assuming?

 

 

 

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.

 

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... what's your point , Henry ?

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You can't ask a man to answer that in just one blog GBH....it's like what's it all about Alfie..?

 his point                 .          may seem insignificant, but I remind you that Gibber's  "Yah" got comment of the day at one time, because he captured the prevailing mood of the site.

 I think Henry's            .       is good and I'm going to give him one.

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Good King Henry disappeared soon after you promised to " give him one " .... please choose your words a leetle bit more carefully in future , Count ....

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Allrighty then ..everyones tucked up in bed after a brief  debugging of the room, and ready for a bedtime story about......

 Counting cows and butter conditioners.

 Sleep tight....gnite John Boy.

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Washington’s power will survive a bit longer, because there are still politicians in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Latin America and in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the NGOs in Russia, who are paid off by the almighty dollar. In exchange for Washington’s money, they endorse Washington’s immorality and murderous destruction of law and life.

 

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/08/13/humanity-is-drowning-in-washingtons-criminality-paul-craig-roberts/

 

 

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Of course many of these countries are as bad or alot worse. Funny when the US seems convinced they are the best democracy on earth.  I think its telling that they have to keep re-iterating that, reality is scarce over there I think.

regards

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and of course, Bush and Congress then and now are no better than the present administration/executive and I think worse IMHO. 

"The improprieties of Nixon and Clinton were minor, indeed of little consequence"

Really? Nixon? I think not....

regards

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For those having admiration of the USA private healthcare system, be aware that couples at age 65 there are advised to have US$300,000 in reserve to cover 90% of their anticipated future healthcare costs.  Please spare us from that scenario.

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