Population growth from migration is continuing to decline but remained above 60,000 in the year to October

Population growth from migration is continuing to decline but remained above 60,000 in the year to October

Population growth from migration hit its lowest annual level since 2015 but remains above 60,000 a year, according to Statistics NZ.

There was a net gain of 61,751 people from migration (long term arrivals minus long term departures) in the 12 months to October.

That was the lowest it has been in any 12 month period since September 2015, and a 12.7% decline compared to the 12 months to October last year.

That was caused by a 2.7% decline in the number of people arriving in this country long term and and an 8.9% increase in the number of people leaving long term.

In the year to October there were substantial falls compared to the previous 12 months, in the number of people arriving long term from China -10.7%, the UK -7.7%, Australia -4.6% Germany -8.3%, France -4.4% and the Philippines -3.9% , but increases in arrivals from Taiwan +4.4%, Korea +4.7%, South Africa 5.5% and Hong Kong 3.6%.

There were more substantial increases in people leaving the country long term, with those heading for China up 37.9%, while long term departures for all Asian countries were up 18.8% overall.

Departures for Europe were up 9.1% overall and departures for the Americas were up 9.6%.

Overall there was a net loss of 3144 New Zealand citizens in the 12 months to October, which is the highest it has for that period since 2015.

There was a net gain of 64,895 non-New Zealand citizens during the same period which was the lowest it has been for that period since 2015.

When analysed by visa type, the biggest change was in people arriving to live here on residency visas, which were down 18.9% in the 12 months to October compared to the previous 12 months.

The biggest declines in residency visas were from the Philippines -46.9%, UK -23.8%, India -23.3% and China -21.1%.

Student visa arrivals were down were down 3.1% overall and work visas arrivals were up 1.8%. overall.

Net long term migration

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Whether you're a sports fan or an economics/finance follower, it appears every New Zealander has cringed at the word "Ireland" for one reason or another this week.


yes indeed. When it all went belly up in Ireland, the workers migrated elsewhere exacerbating the house price/rental market collapse. Auckland already has 35K vacant homes, thats another risk issue in itself. After an economic adjustment, homelessness can remain as can the housing affordability issues. Those (banks) with a vested interest in protecting their balance sheets, move the goalposts. Tenants need jobs too, Landlords then feel it.

Today, complacency reins once again. The environment can quickly change.

Hi Crash-Crusader (formerly, Retired-Poppy),

To set the record straight, there are currently an estimated 30,000 vacant homes in Auckland. This compares with an estimated 33,000 in 2016. (So the number has dropped over the last two years.)

Further, many of these homes are vacant because that's the owner's choice.

For instance, I know a couple who have lived in Auckland for 11 years but they have recently moved to Hawkes Bay, owing to a job transfer. They anticipate returning to live in Auckland in about 4-5 years. They don't dare sell their Auckland house as in 4-5 years they know it would be too expensive to buy back (an equivalent house). Neither do they want other people (tenants) living in it. So the house will remain unoccupied - except for them spending occasional weekends staying there. They're looking to buy a small flat in Hawkes Bay for the time they're based there.

I dare say there are plenty of other people in similar circumstances - so there's a clear rationality to vacant homes in Auckland. And that's not about to change.


Agent TTP, can you please post a link? Even at 30K it's a significant risk. It's a surplus, its a pattern of buy and hold and when the owner chooses, sell. As you are privy to the latest statistics, how does this compare to Sydney/Melbourne (markets falling) Until you produce a link, it remains 33K as at last count (excuse typo on my first comment)

"many of these homes are vacant because that's the owner's choice". What a silly thing to say. Of course they are. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

Only an Agent would seek to play down this significant risk. None of us, especially an Agent, possess the qualifications to conclude "it's not about to change"

Hi Crash-Crusader,

You re-edit your comments so many times, it's just too difficult to keep up with all your cover-ups/deceptions/corrections etc......


Agent TTP, is this all that's left for you to come up with? Why not have another crack at getting 80% banned from this site. You're truly coming across as desperate.

Agent, show us your facts. "Integrity is everything"

Lol me thinks that Tothepoint & Retired Poppy are just two Interest editors having a laugh :D

Anyway, I am signing off for the year for some true quality time. As mentioned by someone, real ballers don't hang around on here during this time of the year. Holler! $$

Good theory and true if one of the interest editors likes playing the really "dumb blond" retired poppy ... total faith in KB, never made a proper investment or ever taken an investment risk, boastful of missing out on the property wave while earning next to no interest income.

Crash-crusader so if we have 20 auckland rental houses and one is vacant that is equivalent to your vacancy rate. Big deal. In fact that is low.

The Lost Opportunity cost at 3% is $30,000 per million, per annum. 4-5 years? A loss of $150k ?
Actual Cost, of course, would be much higher if the place was encumbered.
I'd suggest that you can do a lot of painting and 'fixing up' for $150k!

They are obviously very financially astute /SarcFlagOff


Houses are so bloody expensive in NZ that it forces us highly qualified NZers to where the money is, and where we can actually buy a house.. Perth is about to go through a mining boom. Telling all me Kiwi mates to leave NZ so they can actually get ahead...

Love those box jellyfish & snakes & 45 to 50C heat & the red dust
Perth’s a boom bust boom city
Don’t buy a house there is my advice

Been offered a role for $135k per year. In discussions to build a brand new house close the train tracks for $350k. 10 min walk to beach. 4 bedrooms 2 barthrooms... Shove your average price of $900k, for a house in Auckland, where the sun dont shine...! Btw lived in Auckland for 11 years and can absolutely confirm that Perth is a much better place to settle... hands down!

Been offered 200k+ roles several times, with remote work opportunities. Better medical access, more affordable housing and infrastructure, few fruit bats, the great barrier reef, better birds and a wallaby burger seems like a fine trade compared to NZ where buying any meat and finding any decent home is a lost cause. Hence most the educated peers left early overseas. The only ones who stayed only did so for family reasons short term.

Absolutely agree Pacifica... I returned back to NZ three years ago from Aussie... to find the people depressed, food and housing at astronomical heights. NZ has alot of soul searching as its pretty much has priced out 95% of the population to the prospect of just surviving. Thats why jumped back on a plane and quickly returned... which to be honest, I am sad about it. But coming up with $100k as a deposit ...!

We owned two properties in Perth, came back to NZ 2 years ago... yes, good money in Perth but it’s never steady there, thousands of layoffs and mortgagee sales then next minute it’s boom town and homes are selling $300k more than CV. We ended up losing $150k which was purely because we couldn’t afford to keep our home with no tenants while we waited for the market to turn. It’s a great place to live but not an ideal place to invest... although is NZ either?

Yes NZ is a great country to invest in property providing you invest wisely.

I think if you can float your investments during any crashes (not saying there is going to be one) in any city than all property is a good investment cause it’s almost certainly going to increase in value over a 15 odd year period, short term I don’t think property is wise, unless you were one of the lucky ones who brought prior to the boom and sold to make millions and flitter off to some incredible island to sip drinks all day but in general, I don’t think NZ is unless you’re very financially secure.

Yes absolutely agree with your assertion... I have heard of many in the same boat... but $80k combined income in rural NZ with crap houses for $450k or in Perth- combined income of $210k and a brand new 4 and 2 by the beach for $350k... The Man 2- please take off your agent hat and answer truthfully, which option would you choose mate??

If you had to choose you’d be an idiot not to choose Perth but that’s only at the moment, Perth is so volatile it’s a crappy place to buy. We’ve done it twice there and regional WA too and never again.

Slowly and surely going down without suddenly crashing the system. Gives labour as much time as possible to implement their 'transitional' economy.

Would be interesting to see if this trend starts speeding up or keeps a slow steady decline.

The long term increase in migration to Asian countries would be a worrying trend if it keeps increasing at that rate!

That's what i was thinking and what i think we are seeing. A gradual decline in migration, finger on the pulse. Give our sweatshop industries a bit of time to adjust to the changing landscape.


Leaky boat HMNZS "Little Asia" has fewest number of holes since 2015 since ten out of seventy holes have been patched.

In recent years the ship has been kept afloat by transferring Key heavy components to nearby foreign vessels in the Pacific in order to compensate for lower buoyancy. Ex-captain Sir Chong Kee says the off loading of several assets including one engine, half the electrical wiring, 4 electrical generators and several bedrooms has helped the buoyancy problem. Kee left his role in 2016 to become a professional golfer in Hawaii.

The current crew, consisting of Jacindy Ardern-Gayford-Araoha, Winston Peters, and James-Marima Davidshaw, have all denied the hull is still filling with water but admit speeds have decreased since banning nuclear and oil technologies and switching to wind sails and race horse power.

The Australian Navy have taken aboard several refugees from the NZ ship whom have all cited poor living conditions as their reason for leaving. When presented with this fact Jacinda explained that while it's true that Australia loves taking on refugees she has introduced a policy to improve living conditions. With new KiwiBunk policy crew members enter a lottery system to win the opportunity purchase a new Ikea double-bunk room on the bottom deck for only $649. Ardern-Gayford-Araoha also says non-productive crew members should be taking advantage of the ships generous lolly scrambles.

meth and all blacks are the new bread and circuses. keeps us distracted from the water around our ankles.


Less migration is a good thing until you look a bit closer.
"That was caused by a 2.7% decline in the number of people arriving in this country"
"Overall there was a net loss of 3144 New Zealand citizens in the 12 months to October, which is the highest it has for that period since 2015.
So the numbers of foreigners arriving is only a little (2.7%) down but the numbers of Kiwis leaving is at record high, not so good in my opinion


How many of those New Zealand citizens are just foreigners with our passport going home?


"There were more substantial increases in people leaving the country long term, with those heading for China up 37.9%, while long term departures for all Asian countries were up 18.8% overall."

I think that might be a large clue.


The tide is turning.....


The question to ask Pragmatist is does their mortgage debt lie with an Australian Bank? or a Chinese Bank? and does the bank holding the mortgage know they've left yet?


Does it matter to NZ? I'm yet to see anyone stuff a 2 bedroom unit in a suitcase. If the bank is a NZ bank the security is still here and will be sold, and maybe they take a loss. Not going to shed a tear for them.

Valid point

If they have a NZ passport they are not foreigners

Ignorance is bliss

More Kiwis are leaving, yes, but there's a much bigger increase in non-Kiwis leaving:

Departures of non-NZ citizens, 31,800, increase of 16.1% on last year. Number of NZ citizens leaving increased by 3% over the same period.

The number of kiwis leaving is far from a record high - 34,600 left in the last 12 months, glancing through the csv files during the year 2013 48,000 left, in 2014 36,700, in 2015 34,900. Likewise, net migration of NZ citizens is significantly lower than those recent years (-3100 in the last 12 months, -22,000 in 2013).


The number is still way too high and there is no direct intervention by the government to slow it. Better to have our economy crap out so that the numbers slow by themselves so they don't get any flak from any overseas countries that could affect our trade. Seeing as there is apparently no houses for them to move into and the current infrastructure is under pressure, cannot believe they are still coming. Still I guess its all relative, if your from Guatemala, even Mexico looks good and the USA must appear to be paradise.

America may not be perfect. https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/pm/reports-some-refugees-resettled...
Would Jacinda be bothered if we get 150 refugees from Nauru and they decide they don't like it here?

2,470 houses required to accommodate October's net population gain. About 3,000 building consents per month being issued, but according to Core Logic only 70% of these consents result in a net additional unit. So we're getting something like 2,100 net additional units per month.

BLSH, I'm sure as an aspiring Landlord two years in the past, you were going around telling fellow Aucklanders to prepare for being pushed into the sea due to overcrowding. This hasn't happened. People are attracted by work opportunities and of course it has to be affordable. If the work runs out, they'll go home or seek work in another country - many rentals empty. Our country has a workforce more casualized and mobile than ever. The picture can and will likely change in the near future.

If it's cheaper to live in Melbourne or Sydney, they will try their luck there.

Whatever you say Poppy. Unemployment is very low currently. BTW I’ve been a landlord for much longer than 2 years.

Yes, the last time unemployment was this low was just prior to the GFC.

Yes. Bottomed out at 3.38%, 12% lower than current unemployment rate (3.83%) before the GFC.

It's almost like you're suggesting that economies are cyclical and we can learn from the past to better predict the future. But that can't be the case because you've previously said that anyone who does this is a fool for looking only in their rear view mirror.

Haven't you already stated you stand firm on a house price recovery in 2021? You're on record as basing this shallow theory on past cycles. By doing so you've excluded the possibilities of a crisis, essentially assuming too much with little insight to the unseen variables. If you did, you would not be so hasty in assuming a recovery in 2021. Its you that speculates on past cycles and recoveries that will always mimic those previous. Such characteristics are currently widespread and are borne of foolish complacency. I cannot fathom how this would all rebalance before 2021. You seem void of sound facts to support this.

Employment is often highest just before the fall. It's hardly rocket science now is it? Look at banks lending practices for example. I was quickly surprised, that even after the GFC, we revisited the same risky position again. This time round on a Global scale, valuations, private and public debts have reached even more spectacular levels. As such, the consequences of greed are the same, the severity is still unknown and traditional solutions are currently being questioned by those who care.

I've not said that there will be a "recovery in 2021". I've said that I expect house prices to start to rise in Auckland around 2021/22. I think the odds are that the downward phase of this cycle won't turn into another GFC. But if there is a financial crisis I'd expect the drop in median price to be less than 10% before recovery phase starts.

Ha-ha-ha :) Sorry, nearly spilled my beer. Seriously, whos your White Knight again. The RBNZ?

Osteoarthritis? Bit early in the day for drinking isn't it? Good on you I guess.

Yup, I like a cold one, especially when I'm being entertained ;-)

If you had any sense you’d save your money to buy property - rather spend it on booze.

In any case, you can ill-afford to sacrifice anymore brain cells.........


Pot kettle black. .

Surprised you were able to deliver your message

You can't argue the point so you use ad hominem attacks,


Good post

TTP has definitely changed over the past 12 months or so I’ve been on this site. He’s been getting a lot more personal and throwing more insults around.

Can't agree with that. If there's a financial crisis the drop is likely to be 15-20%

Interesting forecast Fritz.... Shall we play a game of higher/lower with our fellow commentators?

Last one was less than 10% drop. I don’t think there will be another GFC this time round though. I know people think the next one will be worse than the last because interest rates are already low, but NZ has other tools available.

Extra Auckland accommodation are what garages are for
Started long ago in Mangere & Otara the traditional Skyline garage uninsulated unlined & extremely cold in winter but beats living in a tent or van
Could teach a few lessons to American cities where tents & cars are everywhere
Destroys that Disneyland American Dream experience

Totally Agree Northern Lights, I was in the US recently and the tents and trailer parks are a bit of a blight on the landscape. That being said they do seem a lot more sturdy than many of the three year old apartment blocks that have been erected in China


Yes. Conservatively, about 12,000 to 16,000 houses required due to additional people over past year.
We can argue as to the future of the housing market. However, I suggest one looks no further than this demand factor to understand why houses are maintaining their price levels.
Houses are unlikely to start falling significantly until there is a considerable reduction in immigration and/or increase in mortgage interest rates irrespective of what may be happening to overseas markets.


Low wage and high cost ecenomy.

Also money laundering is getting difficult so.........

Still number is high.


Still Way too high. Once again putting it into a wider perspective.

New Zealand currently 1.3% 61,000 assuming a population of approx 4.7M
UK 0.39%
USA 0.3%
France 0.04%
Germany 0.19%
Australia 0.75%
Note we have a bit less than twice Australia's level and they are about twice the highest of the rest.
The Australian government commented within the last week or so that the problems that their high levels of immigration is prompting them to consider curtailing it. You would think our government would wake up and realise that the problem over hear is twice as bad, or or do we live in some sort of different reality bubble and are just imaging the homelessness and poverty that our grossly overstretched housing is causing.
Perhaps there is another answer? Maybe the government actually has little or no control over what happens in NZ and somebody else is calling the shots. China perhaps?


Vested interests, short-term thinking.

Wasn't so long ago NZ had a PM citing "high immigration, rising house prices" as signs of economic prosperity and success. Course, it has to be paid for...but not really by those who get the short-term gain.


How much more "vested interest" can you get than promising to slash it to get elected and then doing nothing once in power?

Much was thrown around by various commentators, but are they pretty much doing most of what they campaigned on? https://www.labour.org.nz/immigration With migration gradually reducing along the lines of what they expected...

We could do with faster too, though.


Sorry, the Labour promise is the bare minimum. NZ First campaigned on lower immigration than anyone else; now they are the table. So where's the action? NZ First campaigned on 10,000 a year.

Agree also that Winston should be getting harangued by his voters to follow up on migration volumes.

RS, it is kind of a sign of success, of the 100'000 + immigrants coming to NZ not 1 has had a gun put to his head and been told "go to NZ or die", they all come because they think NZ is a better place.


So Godzone is in a great position to be able to pick and choose exactly who we want, when and why....but are we?

No sadly we're not


It's saying more about the unattractiveness of the other places.

"Better than Bangladesh" is not exactly an intrinsic achievement of NZ.

NZs fairly easy to migrate to that’s why
Government policy for many years under National rolls on under Jacinda
Not all bad it keeps the kiwi$ in demand & growth
Just sad there’s been no addressing of fundamental policy issues like no land transfer tax low property tax on ultra expensive properties Not enough policing of the Now very dark economy & tax erosion Hence beggar all for new infrastructure let alone a new harbour bridge

NZs been punching way above its weight for years importing more migrants per capital of population than the United Kingdom who scream blue murder about all their extra migrants
Oh well look at the bright side your house prices probably won’t drop much at all

House prices are far more influenced by the expansion of credit (debt) than they are by population increase... Just look at Australia, massive population growth, still rising very fast alongside a collapsing housing market.......
Their market is falling off a cliff. 0.5% price falls in Sydney in just the last week. The only place doing okay for the next few weeks at least is Hobart, which is the 'Jewel' of Australian Real Estate!


Thanks for those stats. France 0.04% & Germany 0.19% - I was in those countries 6 months ago and they both had serious debate and public concern about their high immigration. Kiwis are so laid back. Our newspapers are more likely to publish an article about a noodle house wanting more immigrant staff than a rational discussion about the economic and social advantages and disadvantages of immigration.

Yeah although their mass immigration is different to ours, with there's dominated by islamic people and ours not

You are right. There is some kick back against an alien religion and of course the handful of dangerous terrorists who hide in the large numbers of immigrants. However I got the impression that it was the concentration into specific poverty areas - some defined by senior French politicians as 'no go'. NZ has a better mix of immigrants and taking the last 70 years of high immigration many have been POMs who seem to blend in (at least most of them do). The economic effects of immigration are beginning to be appreciated; the social effects will occur when schools become over 50% a specific non Kiwi ethnic group. Maybe already occuring in South Auckland with PIs?


Your link says that Labour expected a drop of 20,000 to 30,000 PA, so best they get on a do what they said they were going to do.

I agree, it should go faster.

Cull the planes ?
Catch 22 the government can’t cut back immigration too far because it’s keeping the e con omy growing
So expect more of the same no matter which party/s is in power

That's the problem right there. Politicians are captive to 'GDP' while ignoring all other externalities caused by our high immigration rate like housing, infrastructure deficits, pollution etc.

Are you suggesting the government will encourage a 'stealth invasion' to prevent a housing collapse? Didn't work in the UK!


Good night kiwis
Got to get up at 4am


Reduce immigration substantially. When Winnie chose his dining partner I thought, well, at least they'll deall to immigration. Not so I'm afraid. Someone mentioned China above. You nailed it. Part of our 'free trade' small print.


If it was reciprocal free trade with China then I could go to China and buy freehold investment property.

If there is a housing shortage then why aren't all the immigrants living on the streets? Where are they living?

Garages in Auckland and 15 to a house in Queenstown. Anymore questions you need help with?

Funny then that all my fellow South Africans are finding family homes that are not in garages. Thanks but no thanks for your disparaging offer.

In the houses that they have managed to push the prices of up beyond what most locals can fund so it is the locals in the garages and on the streets.

Reducing immigration pressure will have Twyford hopeful his Kiwibild house developer underwriting scheme will evolve from a spectacular failure to a common garden debacle.

No connection between 38% increase in LT departures of Chinese and fact that auction sales % collapsed in Auckland, that section sales (and listings) are FALLING and apartment sales in Auckland compared to 2017 are down, despite increase in number being built and put on market? Also, the drop reported on Caixin today, of amount being invested by Chinese wealth funds, not a sign that China economy is in trouble....NZ dependency on FIRE economy of RE (mostly) in Auckland and the huge increase in debt in China, especially that in USD ($3T up since 2008) is no cause for concern as China central government will just print a lot more and all will be fine...

These are figures for arrivals and departures. For permanent residency see the latest hard to decipher stats at: https://www.immigration.govt.nz/documents/statistics/statistics-resident...
Note when it says financial year it means July-to-June so for the last four months NZ has granted 11,571 permanent residency visas. The would extroplate to about 35k for this year compared to 37k last year. Note any change (improvement in my mind) was actioned by National (I hate them but it is true) with policy changes prior to the election.

35k is still way higher than almost any advanced country on a per capita basis. It wouldn't matter so much if we had an economy with booming productivity and new found natural resources.

Counterpoint: we have lowest unemployment in generations. In the news today Ashburton has 500 job vacancies in a district that is about 0.6% of NZ population. Perhaps we need this much immigration (or more)

..most of the jobs created to build infrastructure to cater for more people. So we keep the gates open for eternity then? Not a sustainable or very clever model.

Foyle. 399 on job seeker support benefits in the Ashburton district.

A good 50% of those will probably be unemployable, but also not sufficiently mentally impaired to qualify for disability benefits.

Not really, disabled people exist all over NZ and many have been put onto the job seekers benefit even with medical physical issues preventing them from accessing work offered in NZ. Would you expect a person in a wheelchair, who is unable to lift their arms, stack shelves, or work as a day labourer for a low wage? Whereas soft skill jobs even for experienced technical sorts are thin on the ground. I know of several with muscular dystrophy, would you then tell them they should be able to walk for work regardless of physical disability. The trouble is the classification even by the employers they want young people, who are experienced and qualified, to work for low wages. These jobs are not for a family long term. Nor for a young person looking to train for a decent career. Nor for any qualified disabled person on jobseekers actively looking for anything they can physically do. (Workbridge is a disgusting joke and so is the jobseekers support for those disabled people who do desperately want and look for work).

Feel free to move 500 people out of Auckland if you talk them into going.

Wages will have to be quite different then.

From the permanent residency figures for this year (4 months):
Czech Republic - Approved 25, Declined 1.
compared with approvals for
China 1,088 India 1,678 UK 1,262 Phillipines 929 Samoa 840

Lapun. Small correction to your data; Czech Republic approved 25, declined 1, sent back to minister with request he actually reads the file and doesn't just read between the lines 1

Why is immigration decreasing?

If you mean permanent residency it was a change in mid 2016 to stop family reunion and mid 2017 to specify a higher wage rate for the so called 'skilled' category - think it is still below the NZ average salary. Of course cheating is rife but it has curtailed numbers and lets us know who are the interested parties who clamour for low wage immigrants.

If you mean the 60,000then it has more to do with how many Kiwis are leaving and that in turn depends on the state of the Australian economy.

To show historical context... 60,000 is still exceptionally high.
Once upon a time we actually had short periods of a net out flow of people..

Regarding the socalled 30000 empty houses in Auck.
How was this determined...?? I'm a little skeptical..

If it was from Census data.... as far as I know, if noone was home on census night then the house was considered vacant..??

Good im sick of living in a suburb of China. Asians everywhere you look on the North Shore. They dont even bother with english signage on most of the buildings now...

It did get better once the bigger meth importers and a couple small time money launderers nearby got moved on. Safer for the family nearby now the local meth lab by the local marina burnt. Plus now there are mandarin language classes for toddlers so your kids can have it as a second language. No saf or other culture language specific focused courses though which you would think would be obvious around there too. It matters the ethics of the people in the neighbourhood. Unfortunately with the market in NZ ethics is mostly a lost cause and one lot of meth importers is quickly replaced by another lot installed into position by the overseas orgs.

It is still an extraordinarily high rate of immigration though.

That's a good point, I took my girls to a place for bubble tea in Albany (their idea) and then entire shopping complex was devoid of signage in English, and the clientele was, apart from us, approximately 100% Chinese. Sounds like a great way to perpetuate an insular parallel society in our midst. I think English signage, a seemingly minor thing, should be a requirement everywhere. Slap Te Reo on there is you want too.

Chinese kids, educated here, find it pretty cringeworthy, I'm told. It's unlikely to become dominant beyond the first generation. Currently there are business reasons to do it.

The correct term is Boba (bubble tea is the lazy English term)

Boba is what they call it in the States, but I've never heard it called that by anyone here until now.

they called it Boba in Taiwan and China

60K still gives NZ the fastest growing population in the OECD, it needs to drop to 5K if there is any chance that the population will re-balance with the infrastructure resources required for the population that we have.

Still trying to figure out why this news showed up at the property news section...