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Murray Grimwood assesses a recent Victoria University debate that pitted green growth against degrowth & sees difficult times ahead

Public Policy / opinion
Murray Grimwood assesses a recent Victoria University debate that pitted green growth against degrowth & sees difficult times ahead
green globe

By Murray Grimwood*

Inevitably, this is once-over-lightly. A free textbook delves deeper.

A recent Victoria University event debated ‘green growth’ versus degrowth. Treasury are slowly getting their heads around the whole to-grow-or-not debate. (The Q&As are illuminating). RNZ’s Nine to Noon tackled it (May 15).  

There is now an Non-Government Organisation called Degrowth Aotearoa and globally we are starting to see the likes of this

The debate as to whether growth – green or otherwise - can be had, or whether we need to reverse it urgently, is well and truly happening. The sequential questions are: How long can global growth (of production and consumption) continue? Will the peak be felt evenly? Can green growth displace current growth? And finally: What happens when degrowth – inevitably - sets in? Let us logic-step our way through the issue(s): 

Growth

Economic growth - the increase of production and consumption – has been positive and exponential, for the last 200 years. But the process of exponentially increasing the rate at which we extract materials from a finite planet (there being no other source of producible/consumable materials) obviously ceases with exponential suddenness. While some are claiming a ‘decoupling’ of GDP from physical extraction in first-world countries, there is no evidence that this holds globally (offshoring being one conveniently-ignored factor). Some claim we can replace fossil energy with ‘renewable’, and keep on keeping on. 

Exponential growth is tracked by its ‘doubling time’. Doubling is a powerful thing; the next increment is equal to the sum of all those doublings which went before. Typically the graph rumbles along for a while, turns upwards, and shoots for the moon (at which stage, it hasn’t long to go. If based on something physical within a Bounded System, exponential growth WILL cease; an event which even multiple substitutions can merely delay. That cessation will come at a time when the activity – the demand - has never been ‘bigger’.  

Degrowth can also be exponential – particularly if based on ever-more scattered, ever-less-quality resources which are – or were until they weren’t - being hoed-into at some doubling-time rate. In both cases, up and down, exponential growth harbours the capacity to surprise; it appears that the majority of us relate to a status-quo; a permanence; a norm. Few keep a running brief on rates of change; even fewer examine the Limits to the system as a whole, yet rates of change and outright Limits are the only game in town.   

Decoupling – or not – from the physical planet.

As stated, everything we purchase can be described as a processed part of the planet. Every move done to a planetary part - extract, process, distribute, consume, discard – requires energy, the vast majority of which we also extract, process, distribute, consume and discard. Where it gets murky, is when we hold planetary-part-and-energy proxy for a period of time or inject proxy into the system, also when we pass unreconciled proxy-parcels around; the assumption is always that the proxy can be cashed-in for something extracted; something tangible, anytime we choose in the future.  

 For 200 years, we have run that system and gotten away with it – with the occasional hiccup. There were still few enough of us; our extraction-rate was still low enough; there was enough planet still remaining and there was enough quality energy remaining. Local shortages – often created by dominant-country (and latterly dominant-corporate) insistence, created angsts and wars. There were booms and busts. This time, though, we are running the doubling-time-within-limits experiment at global scale, and are – unsurprisingly - running into multiple concurrent Limits. A new word nicely identifies this compound dilemma; Polycrisis.    

By ignoring the facts and concocting a self-justifying narrative – that Growth can go forever, therefore we can rely on the future to pay for our current overreach – we have painted ourselves into a corner; led by a discipline which measures neither floors nor walls. And - to prolong a tenuous analogy – there has never been more area covered in peeling paint than now, the tin is half-empty, and the brush? Well, it’s seen better days.  

We seem to be very good at blaming others, rather than our collective selves; perhaps this is the inevitable knock-on from telling ourselves a false narrative in the first place. Thus we get clamoring for the Board of Kiwirail to resign because their ships are demonstrating entropy – rather than admit that we, collectively, don’t want (can’t afford?) to pay more for a crossing. Thus we get clamoring to investigate/sack/diss KPMG – rather than admit that by its very design, levered banking is always incapable of holding off the ultimate ‘run’. Thus we get folk clamoring for a change of Government/PM/rules – rather than admit that the whole social construct is running into hard limits.  

These two graphics have been seen before, but need referring-to here. The first denotes the inputs and outputs (the walls, floor, paint-pot and brush) which economics is apparently blind to:

The second is what it looks like when things are on a downward exponential curve; 85% (and arguably more) of the energy we use, is in this graph:

This failure to account in physics terms, was demonstrated by Peter Nunns – an economist – at that recent Victoria University event. ‘Solar panels are getting cheaper’, he parroted (I heard the same claim from Steven Chu a decade earlier, at Otago Uni). If that is the case, we must be valuing things wrongly. The Mearns graphic says so; the Herrington/KPMG/Limits thesis -  says so too, as does Chapter 2 of the textbook linked above.

Either we are failing to ascertain resource limits or we are failing to link dollars to reality by issuing too many of them, or both (I think we are and we are; that it’s both). And we can add: Also avoiding the fact that manufacturing has been offshored to the closest-to-slave-labour we can find, coupled with the laxest environmental regulations ditto – both often orchestrated by agents acting on our behalf.  

Nunns also seems not to buy the physics underlying the Mearns graph (reducing EROEI). I might suggest he try an experiment; reduce his own Energy Invested, and see what happens. I’ll tell you in advance – he’ll do less. Taken further, he’ll waste away, and eventually die. Probably still rubbishing EROEI, although we might have trouble hearing him towards the end. I find it scary that he – and Alan Bollard, who was originally scheduled to partake; we can only guess why he withdrew! – are part of the Infrastructure Commission. It has to make physical decisions which our grandchildren will wear the consequences of. Not economic, note – that’s purely an artificial human construct – but physical. So far, I’m not convinced they have the expertise.  

A pin on the curve 

What could possibly go wrong? Too many houses, too stacked and too crammed-together; too much energy-dependent infrastructure, no allowance for entropy, nor an anticipation that entropy plus reduced energy and materials, must result in triage. And if you can’t conceptualise that triage in the first place, how can you be expected to contemplate degrowth conforming to a doubling-time? Or include what you’ve spent a professional career calling ‘externalities’? It is hard to know whether to put effort into challenging these folk; events are already overtaking the debate and rendering it increasingly obsolete. The problem is that while the Growth-forever narrative has oxygen, we are building for yesterday.  

The point of the Mearns graph, is that we have to put a pin on the curve and say: ‘Here we can hold’. Placing the pin too high, renders much of what gets built – or kept – unmaintainable (there is no ‘too low’; you can always ease ‘up’). Unfortunately our short-term selfishness, coupled with propaganda (advertising, spin, lobbying) has us refusing to acknowledge the graph, let alone place a pin on it. We should ask ourselves simple questions, with a simple caveat. The simple questions are: Can this (road, pipeline, manufacturing process, farming practice, business, suburb, city) be maintained beyond access to fossil energy? The caveat – and it is important to adhere to this – is: Given PROVEN alternatives. Not wishful thinking, not lab-scaled, not making incorrect assumptions about energy-flow (think: hydrogen); PROVEN. 

Same-scale alternatives to fossil energy? There aren’t any; nobody has built a hydro dam, a power grid, a nuclear plant or a Nissan Leaf, without massive use of fossil energy. We will never see a solar panel providing enough energy to manufacture a solar panel – irrespective of cost (if cost outranked energy-physics, we could pay someone enough to run the 100 metres in three seconds; it’ll never happen and the why? of that, applies to everything). It is time we faced a simple fact; the reason we aren’t leaving fossil energy is because nothing else comes near to matching it. And it’s time we faced another: that we’ve burnt our way though the best half of the fossil resource. The next doubling of production and consumption – whether that growth attempt be Green or Brown – would demand a near-doubled supply of equivalent-quality energy. It ain’t gonna happen; the planet is already creaking at the seams (which is why we see so many who deny Growth limits, also denying anthropogenic forcing).  

While growth is exponential, extraction/processing/consumption/disposal is a linear sequence. Curtail the energy available, and that linearity assumes importance; you cannot consume that which has not been extracted. Thus, a reducing real energy-supply is going to produce some interesting feed-back loops. Energy extraction comes first; energy production second (they are often confused, but are not the same thing); resource extraction third, and so on. The limit to capex-ing for those front-end items, is what the back-end items can ‘pay’; which is in turn tied to the EROEI of the extracted energy (to do the work to produce something to do the repaying). I suggest we are already seeing multiple indications that society can no longer ‘afford’ itself; the back end cannot pay what the front-end needs for the next go-around. How we reconcile the growing gap – inflation, forgiveness or collapse – is an interesting question? 

Mention should be made of efficiencies – called ‘productivity gains’ in economic-speak. The Laws of Thermodynamics are very clear; efficiencies are limited and a trend of reducing returns is inevitable. Carnot, Watt, Soddy and Georgescu-Roegen understood this, various long times ago; it’s a great pity a whole discipline is still puzzled as to why ‘productivity’ has plateaued; to anyone who has bothered to ask why vehicles have radiators, it’s obvious.   

Parasitism will reduce 

Most of us are parasites on the energy-driven extraction-to-disposal sequence; society could specialise only because of the massive amount of energy temporarily available. A percentage of us were nothing but rentiers upon the flow; for instance a landlord is only connected to it via their tenant’s income (not by capital gain, that’s zero-sum in physical terms) or if the tenant is also parasitic, then there will be a further link – or more. Remember the banks are parasitic upon the whole, and we are already seeing resentment against them and the big corporate ‘consultants’. Even those of us who write are parasitic (in terms of that particular activity; growing our own food or firewood, of course, is not). I anticipate an increasing societal inability to support parasitic activities, coupled by growing resentments, but resisted by calls for regulation-removal.  

Narratives will be increasingly incorrect 

There are a cohort who think they’re winning under the existing system, who will argue for its continuance in the face of mounting evidence that continuance cannot be had. Another cohort think we can solve overpopulation by educating women – missing the point that the too-many are already here. Still another thinks that we can continue, but in a Green manner (we can’t, not at this rate of consumption, at least). Others have constructed narratives which address via avoidance; the Rainbow community, for instance, have one common denominator; a reduced focus on human reproduction.

Unsurprisingly, during overshoot, the imperative to reproduce is absent and the opportunities to nest-build are out of reach for an increasing many. They’re concocting self-narratives which make them feel worthwhile, but which fit with the overshoot (there is much rainbow-supporting media, but few – no? - journalists are pointing out that correlation). Others point to a past progress – in health, technology, knowledge – and insist that progress will continue (they should perhaps ask why we cease growing in our 20s?).

As our social fabric disintegrates, polarization, dissing, talking-past and otherising are on the increase. So too, are spin and outright disinformation – including the unwitting media again; expounding growth and externalizing-economics as givens (Radio New Zealand is a recidivist culprit in that regard). We need this diffusion to be reconciled, but I doubt it will happen, on the basis that if were going to have gotten our shyte together, we’d have done so already.  

Oh – and if there is no like-for-like substitute for the fossil energy we’re half-way through, that leaves us one doubling-time left. If you can call the shakily-downward-trending mix of entropy, confrontation and curtailment found under the right-hand-side of a Gaussian curve, a ‘doubling’. The Degrowthers are right; we will degrow. They are also right, in that going there in as controlled a manner as possible, is better than hitting the wall while attempting to double our speed.  

*There will be the usual knocking comments, but what would be useful at this juncture, is for a Bollard or a Carr or a CSA – preferably all three – to read the textbook linked at the beginning, and have the bravery to address the issues it raises. To say honestly: ‘My brief is inappropriate; given what is ahead, it needs to be widened’.

*Murray Grimwood comments on interest.co.nz as powerdownkiwi.

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61 Comments

Great stuff. Which i will be reading 2-3x. And I apologize for this post. Unnecessary pixel consumption.  

What does concern me though is that overpopulation is often pointed to as the core problem. It always feels to me that evokes the culling of other people, but not us though. We can 'man alone' or Swiss Family Robinson at the end of the world   

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I think, the whole de-growth thing is an early manifesto for a far-left (think something like to a communist) revolution. The concept is so anti human nature it could never be voluntary. They can rationalise this away on the surface with some simplistic idealism but the desire for a power grab will be at the back of many of their minds. They have already declared the people most competent to do this a "class" enemy. The excuse to starve any one who disagrees is already built into ideology. The whole thing is just dark.

PDK is already saying the quiet part out loud: "I ... suggest [Nun] try an experiment; reduce his own ... he’ll waste away, and eventually die". Dissidents will be starved. (I know this is PDK and he's prone to saying things like this but surely the editor could ask him to remove it)

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Easy solution to that: you just keep growing. Those who opt for "de-growth" are surely only benefiting you. Why fight it?

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I imagine the tolerance of conspicuous consumption will be rather low, once quality of life really deteriorates, and that is the path we are on. Of course hi tech security could keep the crowds from the ramparts for a while, until the plebs have nothing to lose by sacking bunkers for the piles of horded canned food. Once media goes down and the mind control stops, watch out!

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Yeah, steady state was needed before we depleted the planets resources, but no, the high priests of capitalist growthism owned the message. Nobody wants to face reality when short term thinking dominates. Still policy makers insist on shoving NZ down the growth rat hole. The worst part, they'll never face liability for their mindless decisions! 

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Pretty sure everyone here understands peak oil. That is my opinion of the practical realities of degrowth as a "solution".

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I think, the whole de-growth thing is an early manifesto for a far-left (think something like to a communist) revolution. The concept is so anti human nature it could never be voluntary. They can rationalise this away on the surface with some simplistic idealism but the desire for a power grab will be at the back of many of their minds. They have already declared the people most competent to do this a "class" enemy. The excuse to starve any one who disagrees is already built into ideology. The whole thing is just dark.

My feelings as well. But I don't think Power is intentionally suggesting the culling of people. It's probably easier to have these thoughts about growth surrounded by nature in NZ than being born into a Delhi slum.  

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Let me try to explain it this way: What they currently have is not a workable plan (like Marx never did either) it's not going to simply work and I don't think the current leadership have a clue of what you would actually need to make it happen. (If degrowth delivered as promised and we gave them heaps credit all might be well.) So what hypothetically happens when this plan or ideology falls over? Do the say "my bad, I was wrong" (and disappear) or do they keep doubling down as it keeps failing? I know PDK is bad representative of these kinds of groups but I still think answer will be the latter every time. We will get to the stage of starving anyone who complains real quick when it's already mostly deemed a necessity (but a quiet part) from the start. Would they think all the problems of it not working out would be so much simpler if we had a pre fossil fuel population.

As an aside: There will be "PDK thought" where we are told the correct way to understand and worship an exponential function.

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Tim52 - sorry, but bollocks.

You are doing what is called straw-man - where you put something you reject, to - by insinuation - reject that which you cannot oppose by debate. It''s usually - make that always - a sign of a weak argument.

You are just wrong - my aim is to get economists and economics in general, to measure real things. The stuff outside the box in the first diagram. The stuff without which we are all dead. Science beats quasi-religious belief, every time. Sorry about that.

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I think you have to admit Power that it will not be you or the NZ culture making relatively greater concessions to alleviate any potential calamity resulting from insufficient energy and food resources. It will be those in the developing nations and those in heavily populated countries like China and India. And that is the point.   

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Have a look around you. Spend a day contemplating everything you see; cars, roads, buildings, stuff in the supermarkets, the hardware stores, the 'landfills'. Ask one question, of every item: Could/would that be there, ex fossil energy? Certainly the extract/consume/excrete food system won't.

Which brings up an awkward question of its own: How many humans can NZ carry, long-term, ex fossil energy? The answer is in the demonstrated carrying-capacities before fossil energy; add in our scientific knowledge, and I reckon the answer is 2 million (depending on indulgence per head).

Population per square sunlit area, is the crucial equation - and we are in trouble. Whether we are seen as desirable, and invaded either formally or informally, is a valid topic for discussion. A couple more floods might scare 'em off. But I posit we are over double our carrying-capacity, and that the readjustment will happen faster than even a 'now' birth-cessation could assuage.

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Ask one question, of every item: Could/would that be there, ex fossil energy?

Yes.  I ask that question virtually everyday, but with a twist, "should that be there, given an energy-constrained future?" (not to mention the fact that the Gaia hypothesis is no longer a hypothesis but a theoretical fact). 

e.g., I ran out of my perfume recently - and went to throw away the bottle and decided - that'll be the last.

Not going to save the planet, of course, but we all need to be mindful (to my mind) that consumption of unnecessary goods and services ain't helping one bit.

If only the global community had dreamt up a consumption-credit as opposed to a carbon-credit, regime.  

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I don't disagree with the underlying narrative, facts, and models. But I'm just pointing out that the only reasonable answer seems to be culling the world population substantially.  

And there is a pecking order. The world's poorest will be first to be removed. We will be spared. And the likes of Cindy, Klaus, and Julie Ann Genter will be closest to God. 

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The only reasonable answer is that nature will cull us regardless. 

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And the likes of Cindy, Klaus, and Julie Ann Genter will be closest to God. 

Seems unduly partisan.

Degrowth will happen one way or another as physical constraints bite. I'd suggest folk imagining they'd be better in an Elysium-style world than in any societal attempt to cater to more people rather than fewer wouldn't hold that feeling for too long in the face of reality. 

I.e. you might bark that Cindy, Klaus, and Genter will be "close to God", but it's probably more likely the equivalent of today's creators and CEOs of monopsonies would simply BE God.

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I confess to seeing the same challenge in every car, rubbish bin, supermarket shelf. Even in NZ where we had the sense to invest in renewable energy (around 50 years ago) we are still getting two-thirds of our energy from imported fossil fuels, more if you add the absurd amount of imported fertiliser (which carries its own unsustainable energy and ecological impact).

My take on our little island, is that we could achieve a balanced ecosystem, and we will one way or another. The choice we face is whether we consciously navigate that journey to sustainability (which will come with huge advantages) or whether we spend a couple of decades lurching from disaster to disaster and into abject misery and poverty.

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"my aim is to get economists and economics in general, to measure real things." Every economist understands an exponential function and when you patronizingly explain it to them like you are smarter than them and would not understand are you really trying to talk to them? Everyone of them understands the idea of peak oil.

Do you want to clarify your desires for Nun's future health? after I have interpreted you wish him to starve to death if he continues to believe this "heresy". Why ever write that in a serious column or manifesto? (That's nasty and immature saying that out loud afterwards let alone later)

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I don't think you're listening.

Tell you what: download and read that textbook (I'm very sure you won't be able to make yourself do that, btw). Come back when you're through, and let's go from there.

I have copies of Bollard's Crisis, Richardson's Making a Difference, Douglas' Unfinished Business, heck, I've even got Atlas Shrugged. I read them, and annotate where I disagree/agree. That is perhaps where we differ - you aren't going to go anywhere outside your narrative/comfort-zone.

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PDK you are the one who is missing the point. Your perspective is pure physics, and you argue that the physics cannot be ignored, and in that you are correct. But what you neglect to consider is politics, and this is where Tim is correct, albeit framing it the wrong way. Politics is why were are in the hole we are in, and politics is what is preventing us from solving it. You can talk about the physics all you like, and physics will ultimately be the final voice as it overrides the politics, but de-growth will never be allowed to happen. It would cause a major revolt from all the people who are held at the bottom of the equity pile. 

As bad as it is in NZ (and it will get worse unless something changes), it is a long way from places like India and the Philippines. Stop for a moment and consider human physics and the effect on people when they are told that the goal now is de-growth. Universal physics will take a back seat for a little while as human anger overrides all else. Putin's war in Ukraine will pale in comparison.  

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That's not what he is saying. And I think you know that; he's turning my comment into a monster, so he can self-justify recoiling in horror and indignation.

But consider the Titanic analogy; the physics says only those in lifeboats (or otherwise out of the water) will be alive as the sun rises. As you say, the physics will override.

Now, do you do nothing because the officers on the Bridge are issuing 'nothing to see here' soothings? How's that going to change anything?

Do you tell people that they just need to put on their lifejackets, to become familiar with the drill (the green-growth approach)?

Or do you push for more people to know about what's coming, so that a more-controlled-than-a-last-minute-panic scenario might play out (you might be able to fit more into the lifeboats, drier, warmer and better-equipped)?

Sure, everyone would prefer the recent paradigm; warm dry staterooms. But that option is not going to be there.

I am firmly of the opinion that educating, warning, and demonstrating a lesser-impact lifestyle, are valid - indeed imperative - actions. There always comes a time for a 'Blood, Soil, Tears and Sweat' speech from a brave and situation-appropriate politician.

 

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Yes he's 'recoiling in horror' but he's really pointing to the political issue.

The Titanic analogy doesn't quite work as there were a couple of survivors who weren't in the life boats, but that is about the physics of alcohol being an anti-freeze. But I get your point. (they were steerage class and knew they would never be allowed on a lifeboat so they just retired to the upper class bar and indulged themselves in the top shelf. Those who died probably never felt it)

I agree with the educate bit, but consider that your efforts, and those of others are not reaching an awful lot at the bottom, so they largely just don't know much more than the immediate ramification of the destitution they live in. And for the people at the top squandering resources - many of them believe because of their status in their society and wealth they will somehow be protected from it all. BS really.

In the end the physical physics is still connected to the human physics, but nature will always win out. 

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In a world of degrowth, you reckon it's the folk advocating for wider swathes of community that will be carrying out the power grabs?

This seems...completely adrift from the context and power grabs of the last fifty years.

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Thanks Murray, great article. I recommend Tom Murphy's book to which you link  Read it, even brushed on some of my high school maths to verify my impact versus what's available/what's left. Revelatory!

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Thanks Murray. I agree with most of what you have to say, but what I'd really like to see is a layman's introduction to growth.

The basic concepts are easily understandable to everyone. But once you start talking about entropy, and EROEI, and energy cliffs, and feedback loops, and all the rest of it, I'm afraid you probably lose some readers.

We all need to understand this stuff. We all need to understand, for example, that even 2% growth year-on-year - on anything - is compounding. Compounding means exponential. Exponential means unsustainable, and unsustainable means it has to come to an end at some point. What happens when it ends - and when that might be - depends on what's growing exponentially, and those are both topics for another discussion. 

Hope to see more of your articles in future.

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Thank you. Wright's 'Short History of Progress' is simple, easily read and solid. Emmott's '10 Billion' is readable in an hour, cheap, and has the most powerful last page I've ever read.

And the late Albert Bartlett repeated his famous growth lecture, many times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZA9Hnp3aV4

Good for those starting out...

 

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That (the AB vid) is where I started when our paths first crossed on here.  From then on, I've been paying attention :-). Thanks for that, it's been a worthwhile journey.

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That is a great lecture PDK, but I'm not sure its accessible to most people. Stephen Hawkings did a great job of making relativity into a coffee table book, and I just wish someone would do the same for exponential growth.

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The only thing infinite, is the ability of humans to self delude.

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There will be the usual knocking comments, but what would be useful at this juncture, is for a Bollard or a Carr or a CSA

CSA?  I hate to ask, as when you tell me, I'll look like a real dummy :-).

Another great article, Murray.  

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Chief Science Advisor (to the PM).

Currently Juliet Gerrard. I asked her and Rod Carr, the question re Limits to Growth, at the opening to the Science Festival, pre-Covid from memory. He answered well - she.......... didn't. Hadn't gone there intellectually and wasn't about to any time soon, was my appraisal. Sir Peter Gluckman gave a sense that he knew more.

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Just curious...how did someone work out that 5 to 7% figure for society to function? And which society?

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Yes - there's been much discussion of that point, since Charlie Hall penned his original paper. It's taken as First-World BAU, but things get cloudy because entropy is a slithery beast; you can abstain from painting the house for many years - then it rots. Which year do you account the rot in? So we can fool ourselves - until then.

Roughly speaking, 11-8 is the range most folk think is required; 5-7 is not allowing much capacitance.

https://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2017/03/why-eroei-matters-role-of-…

 

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Ever noticed that the experts that make the decisions on " the majorities " way of life -  have never lived  the same " way of life."

Like Ardern  - sheltered upbringing,  university,  political  " comrade" activist , to politician.

No " school of hard Knocks"  = woke theorists with no personal power but plenty of undeserving positonal and  decisional power

 

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What has that got to do with the thread?

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Good point - lol.

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Great article thanks PDK. The outcome is rather depressing, the fact that many think they can debate their way out of it says something about human nature.

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A bit of a tangent, but this links to what you say the end of the article, holds for some of the btl comments on this site and our lives in general: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/20/what-conversation-can-do-…

 

Thanks for the article, an interesting read. 

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I don't think there is any denying the final outcome for civilization as resources dwindle. All humanity can possibly achieve is to delay the inevitable, as the old saying goes "all good things come to an end". I still don't think anyone should rush out and kill themselves over it, just let it happen.

I'm sure there is still enough time to find any enjoyment you can. In fact for most just being alive is pretty good.

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Denial is an option but a poor one.

Degrowth is coming - we just need to choose if we want it to be managed or sudden and chaotic. And the earlier we start down the managed path, the better the long-term outcomes will be for us. We still have some resources left that could be invested into a better sustainable future but that window is closing.

 

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Along those lines, the interesting writer William McAskill makes the point that fossil fuels are too important for humanity to be squandered as we're doing with much of them.

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Good article thanks Murray and we need to see much more discussion of Degrowth as a valid pathway out of our climate, ecological and soon to be economic mess. Growth has served humanity well and built our current vastly profitable and wasteful society but ceased to serve about 30 years ago when we agreed climate change was real and needed to be acted upon. All of the worlds governments signed the UN framework convention on climate change and well 30 years later very few have acted upon it. Now we are facing the consequences- massive global damage at 1.2 degrees currently, e.g. $10B+ damage from cyclone gabrielle, 33 million displaced Pakistan, Europe coming up for another summer of drought.
There are responses/solutions like 45-50% greenhouse gas reduction by 2030 to give us a fair chance at limitng temp rise to 1.6-2 degrees, 1.5 is in effect out now, we will need 10% year on year reductions of ghg. Anyway ghg use matches GDP 1-1 so that means we need to reduce gdp 50% by 2030 or face going over 2 degrees which will be utterly catastrophic and much more expensive. How do we reduce gdp 50%? Thats the big question - eliminate waste, inessential activities and concentrate on the essentials like housing, food, health, essential industry, regenerative farming (lower input/output) etc, renewable energy  builds, public transport, ebikes. Get rid of the junk and waste - consumerism, suvs, non essential flying, junk food, much imported food, excessive consumption of the wealthy. This is degrowth - a managed descent from our wasteful and now very dangerous current trajectory where we are headed to 3 degrees of warming. We have wasted 30 years, the science is clear this is our last chance- keep up the carbon and ecological pollution and we will massively damage the planet irreversibly, kills millions to billions, make most of the planet uninhabitabe and destroy many ecosystems. We and NZ have been terrible stewards of our environment. Neoliberal economics has corrupted our democracy and caused immense damage. We need system change - degrowth provides this and yes its a form of socialism to put social outcomes first and stop the damage from the 1% hoovering up all resources.
Suggest read Jason Hickel less is more, also various youtube videos. Its becoming quite a developed field

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Same-scale alternatives to fossil energy? There aren’t any; nobody has built a hydro dam, a power grid, a nuclear plant or a Nissan Leaf, without massive use of fossil energy.

I have to disagree with this particular statement. No one extracted fossil fuel/smelted iron/moved goods also originally without large input of manpower and additional efficiencies such as beast of burden (the prior energy source|tied to agrarian sun use).

I for one think nuclear could well be our future. It can easily produce the power to make the other items also. Just needs proper placement and appropriate care/maintenance.

Note I don't believe in perpetual growth - but there will be a balance, and given our current global levels of wastage, I don't think we're actually at our limits yet at all. Though some efficiencies could well be worth exploring - i.e. not shipping waste wood halfway round the world for boxing, or buying junk chinese toys for the kids that last 2 days if they're lucky.

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PDK always ignores nuclear in his musings. He doesn't even include it in his Earth's Biosphere diagram. Perhaps because nuclear EROI is 75-100 throwing the energy cliff theory out the window.

Energy intensities, EROIs (energy returned on invested), and energy payback times of electricity generating power plants

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360544213000492

 

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What do you think the link above your post was about?

And the time between my posting that, and you this, tells us you chose not to read it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerpielke/2019/09/30/net-zero-carbon-dio…

' So the math here is simple: to achieve net-zero carbon dioxide emissions by 2050, the world would need to deploy 3 Turkey Point nuclear plants worth of carbon-free energy every two days, starting tomorrow and continuing to 2050.' 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0096340212459124

' Today there are about 430 commercial nuclear reactors worldwide (Schneider et al., 2012). Expanding that to 15,000 reactors requires ...'

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The link was about the artificial construct "net zero". Your article never mentioned net zero ideology. Net zero ideology is not relevant to EROI theory. You state "Roughly speaking, 11-8 is the range most folk think is required; 5-7 is not allowing much capacitance." Nuclear give you an order of magnitude higher. The Euan Mearns blog post needs to move the pin on the chart.

If you want 70-100 eroi there is a solution sitting there for you.

*This comment was paid for by Big Oil.

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dp

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There is no lack of resources for resource intensive intermittent energy - so why pretend there is a lack of resources for nuclear power? Nuclear is much less resource and land intensive, and has am much longer lifespan then windmills or solar panels.

  • Had Germany spent $580 billion on nuclear instead of renewables, and the fossil plant upgrades and grid expansions they require, it would have had enough energy to both replace all fossil fuels and biomass in its electricity sector and replace all of the petroleum it uses for cars and light trucks.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2018/09/11/had-they-b…

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PDK - what is your take on those mega billionaires, like Elon Musk, who argue humankind can pivot to extracting resources from other planets? Also, your view on the role of nuclear power over the long term? 

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Nuclear requires a functioning financial system, a functioning grid, and a functioning supply/wastes-away system. It is not a stand-alone topic. And see my links, just above.

Extraction from other planets, is the theme behind the first Avatar movie. It falls over on EROEI, by so many orders of magnitude, it's not funny. The energy required to get into space - both ends, here and there, but with a payload there - cannot realistically be carried; there would be no payload capability, given they'd have to carry the return-trip fuel, on the outer trip. Just nuts. And how many tons back, compared to present mining and shipping? Nuts again.

The movie 'Don't Look Up' comes to mind  - particularly the last scenes.

 

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The sun will emit more energy tomorrow than has hit this planet since the start of the Paleolithic Age.  ER is potentially quite good.

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PDK thanks - good article

You know there is a "school of thought"  that people not yet born dont matter/count.  So people alive today can party on use as many resources as they want and then when we/they die out and resources are gone the planet earth just carries on without humans. And there is still a high probability that earth will be saved by the near wipe out of humans from another specie/bug or a natural disaster (eg large volcanic eruption) so another excuse not to act

It might sound  weird but it seems to sit behind much of what passes as leadership today

and actually planet earth just may be better off without humans anyway. 

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How about we re-write that last sentence?

Planet earth would be better off without humans acting in the way they currently do.

We call ourselves sapient - I'd have thought we could have thought, if you see what I mean. How it is that someone as at leats averagely smart as Hipkins, can only address growth by inviting more people into a crowded lifeboat (it raises the black-market prices on the boat - we'll all get richer) beats me. The Nats are no better - if anything, worse. I call it ignorance - when I'm feeling polite...

Go well

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Do you think that a lack of understanding of the energey required to MAINTAIN civalisation has lead to past failures...    this next one is going to be a doozey.

At a personal level, how do you protect yourself from what is coming, how fast will it occur, decades or less?

i imagine the coming recession might be hard to "Get out of"

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Most research says live in a place with a temperate climate, small population and the ability to grow food. Know anywhere like that? :)

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Yeah my rural property........ 

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If based on something physical within a Bounded System, exponential growth WILL cease; an event which even multiple substitutions can merely delay. 

"If" really is the biggest word.   

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You are the proponent of space-migration, from memory?

See my comments re the EROEI of that.

And Earth is very much a Bounded System.

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It's all about the basic maths, compounding, doubling times. The "free textbook" link top of page begins with the maths, but complicates it to the nth degree. Doubt 1 in 10,000 would read on.

Nothing grows forever, simple as that, easily demonstrated with Year 7 maths (yep, Al Bartlett nailed it decades ago). Without that appreciation/conversation, kinda hard to even begin to turn the Titanic.

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Hi Murray. I appreciate your tenacity in convincing us that our current path is unsustainable. I wonder how your (future?) article would read if you closed off that argument, now that you have made it, and aimed your attention to those who agree with you. What do you want to tell them? What do you want them to do?

I realise I can't expect you to be the messiah and lead us to the land of sustainability, but neither can you only provide a warning on what NOT to do, and then claim that nobody listened to you when people carry on as they are. 

Would your article be addressed to governments? Individuals? Organisations? It seems like the elephant in the room is population. What would you do if given ultimate power in NZ right now? Would you close the borders? Ban trade? I'm only asking for a general sense of what might a managed "power down" look like in your view.

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Good question(s).

Watch this space  :)

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