By Murray Grimwood*
It's coming from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
(Leonard Cohen; Democracy)
We of the recent First World had a simple narrative; growth is good. The unspoken addendum was: and our way of achieving it, is the best.
At the selfish end of that narrative winners were idolized; trophies compared. At the selfless end, defenders of the poor and of something they called ‘the environment’, toiled to reduce growth’s impacts on both (while still benefiting from it, themselves).
Both human-oriented cohorts generally urged more growth, either because of unassuaged egos or on behalf of unassuaged poverty; environmentalists ran the full growth gamut.
But two things are now happening with increasing speed, causing a third.
The first is that real growth has hit the real limits of a finite planet, indeed humanity as a species has well overshot them.
The second is that those cohorts – loosely defined within the First World as Left/Right – have yet to replace their increasingly-obsolete narrative with a reality-fitting one. The result been a plethora of suggested alternatives, increasingly polarized. Add ignorance of the greater predicament – for which our public media and publicly-paid academia need to shoulder a portion of the blame – and whatever the truth is, it has increasingly-less chance of cut-through as time goes on.
The truth about Growth
Exponential physical growth within a finite system (a planet, say) will always cease. Only total decoupling could avoid that but if decoupling was genuinely possible we’d all be infinitely rich; all the oil could be left in the ground and there would be no need to fish, farm or forest. What some folk thought was increasing decoupling, was actually an exponential increase in the number of betting-slips (on the future availability of real stuff) being held in abeyance. Plus offshoring plus inflation.
The truth about real stuff
Real stuff – call it resources – comes in three categories.
- There are non-renewable ones; the stuff we mine, consume and scatter.
- There are ‘renewable’ ones; things that grow or accumulate; using these faster than they accumulate is obviously a temporary course of action.
- Then there are ‘sinks’; the bio-capacities to absorb and nullify; the overuse-is-temporary description fits here, too.
Graphing real stuff
The diagram below, is the stripped-to-the-basics physical truth. Humanity is the first species to have used tools to dig into the stocks on the left of the diagram, and to use the concentrated energy stocks found there, to lever both their work-output, and their population.
It is worth pointing out that this is a one-off event in global terms. We are the only species which will ever mine those resource stocks; the only one which will burn the fossil stocks to obtain the stored energy.
What is not shown in the diagram, is that we access the best, first, so every ‘next’ stock is not quite as good; is more dispersed, deeper, less pure… That goes for the energy stocks as well as the material stocks, so it’s a double whammy; less-useful oil being used to mine more-scattered copper being an example (it also applies to siting – from houses to cities to roading; all best-first so every ‘next’ is ‘worse’).

We concocted our ‘growth forever’ narrative, from inside the box. Whether it was purposely done, ignorantly done or a mixture of both, we chose not to account for the incoming and outgoing arrows. If pushed, our narrative called those ‘externalities’ – but assured us that at some price-point a replacement would always be found, ad infinitum, ad absurdum. It even assured us we could create an additional ‘market’ for degraded energy (carbon credits, ETS).
To put that last sentence another way; our narrative assured us we could override the Second Law of Thermodynamics (it takes high-quality energy to underwrite money – via work and production – not the low-grade exhaust of the burn). In simple terms, the flow of energy across that diagram is inexorably left-right; high-quality energy is reduced to lower-quality every time work is done. We have hoed into the high-quality stocks and burned them. They’re gone. We are on a downward-quality trajectory, and will end up with real-time solar (and its derivatives: wind, hydro, firewood). Having relied on long-buried sunlit acres (oil, coal, gas) we will be forced to do everything we do, using above-ground ones. There will be competition for that sunlit acreage.
A brief Plenty
In the 200 years since we tapped into the stocks of fossilised sunlight, we have used them to assemble a never-bigger collection of built stuff. Roads, piped services, grids, skyscrapers, houses, cars, trucks, planes, ships, whiteware, electronics – all decaying at various rates. To parry that decay takes some of the resource-stream, and some of the energy stream. As the collection grows and time goes on, that maintenance-demand (including replacement) grows – exponentially.
At some inevitable point a perfect storm sets in. The reducing quality of remaining resources demands that more energy be applied to extraction. The reducing quality of the energy being applied, increases that already-increased amount of energy required. And the maintenance-demand increases with time, demanding more energy and resources as the fleet ages and grows, competing more and more with extraction. Triage sets in. Maintenance is deferred. Discretionary items get dropped. Targets get can-kicked, or dropped completely. Rules get weakened, bypassed or simply ignored.
We are witnessing the last paragraph, now. To repeat: Our overarching narrative was concocted within the box in the diagram, avoiding the in-and-out arrows. Put another way: concocted avoiding the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. And the 2nd Law is stepping up to bat.
The impact on existing narratives
From Right to Left. At the extreme Right – dreams of life-forever and expansion to distant planets (both fall foul of the 2nd Law). At the moderate Right (our current Government) every attempt made to re-start ‘growth’. Triage, deferral, rule-removal; they demonstrate it all. But it will be to no avail – the 2nd Law is already manifesting as feed-back loops and Catch-22’s, faster than they can react. For the middle – which used to be the massed middle of a bell-curve but is now the increasing hollow between a rich few and a poor many – it is a frantic effort to hold on to amassed wealth (assumed amassed, that is: all resale – be it of houses or shares or proxy - requires a buyer and both parties to assume an ongoing underwrite). The mild Left have attempted to assuage their consciences – many via obsession over their most-recent colonization-event, many agonizing over ‘climate’ (usefully distant enough to virtue-signal about). The extreme Left just wants the rapidly-growing disenfranchised cohort to be able to consume like the still-enfranchised. Noticeably, that ethos has overcome conservation/environmentalism in the Green camp.
Who was closest to being correct?
The apparently-extinct conservationists / environmentalists were. For the simple reason that their approach was the closest of all to addressing the 2nd Law. Not perfect, mind, but closest. The fact that they represented no more than 10% of the populace at best (and less in recent times) merely reflects the growing chasm between our overarching narrative and the 2nd Law (put another way: between our overarching narrative, and the truth).
The Blame Game
The Right, by and large, have come to blame the Left for the lack of growth (and have extrapolated that bias to even include blame for violence against the extreme Right). The Left have come to blame the Right/elite for degradation - be it societal or physical (and they are on firmer ground blaming the Right for calling out the National Guard…). The cruel joke is that most of the ardent First-World Lefties are still part of the overarching narrative; the urge to ‘re-wire’, the phrase ‘clean energy’, the phrase ‘carbon neutral’; urgings for an unspecified UBI for an unlimited cohort (when pensions alone are already future-unmaintainable) these can be reduced to: ‘Let’s continue business as usual, just in conscience-placatory form’.
Where to from here?
There is what should happen; the best card(s) to play in the circumstances. That would involve adaption of our money system to a non-growth-accommodating, then a de-growth-accommodating, format. It would involve an honest discussion about population, including immigration. It would involve a re-writing of the RMA to address the three resource-forms listed above. It would involve political representation/advocacy of future citizens too; to address the tendency for ‘now’ generations to discount the future.
Then there is what is likely to happen; dogged attempts to pursue growth, regardless of benefiting cohort. Continuance of mass disenfranchisement. Increasing desperation generating support for strong-appearing leaders who promise nirvana/utopia. Decreasing democracy. Increasing disrespect for science (warnings only hinder growth, and those who peddle/advocate growth will double-down). Increasing draw-down (of both resource-stocks and capacities). Increasing feed-back pressures – particularly competition for sunlit acreage (remembering the top-left corner of the diagram). War(s) over what’s left. Triage and abandonment (particularly of compressed cities, which are merely dissipative structures in a 2nd Law sense).
How best to face the change?
Leadership – either the voting public needs to be much more informed, or leadership has to be much less democratic. Discounting of the future has to be nullified – or why are we bothering?
Education – we are largely ignorant of the 2nd Law; interesting, given that we all understand the need to eat and the need to re-fuel tanks, re-charge batteries and repair or replace worn/broken items.
Tertiary education in its present form is of limited use; it never got past being a horizontal collection of pointy-ended disciplines and has been commandeered by commodification anyway. We need a Systems-understanding body above the pointy bits, tasked with looking ahead (a classic example of tertiary education failing to bridge the impossible gulf between BAU and the 2nd Law can be found here: https://www.odt.co.nz/lifestyle/magazine/joined-response-climate-crisis ). And we need good disseminators…
Consumption has to be reduced to fit with non-reduction of the three resource-types. That infers a very different ‘economy’. We will never achieve full recycling of non-renewable resources (and even now, with reasonably-available energy, choose not to) but must make a strenuous attempt to do so (fossil fuel stocks are finite; on that basis alone almost no RMA application ever made, would have passed the non-reduction threshold). We need to reduce consumption of renewable resources, to at least proximate the rate at which they renew (in almost every case we’re overshot already). And we need to stop filling ‘sinks’ faster than they can cope (CO2 being merely being one overfill among many).
Timing our moves
Those who bring more energy to conflict, generally win. Cannons vs spears; machine-guns vs rifles; the list goes on. Colonisations were ever thus. It follows that de-energised societies will be at risk of being overrun by those remaining more powerful. In a way, this is the irony of all ironies; the most powerful are the most likely to dominate – but the least likely to be long-term sustainable.
Big nations – and big blocs of nations – will compete for what is left of the planet’s resources, from here on in. Until large groupings can no longer be controlled, at which stage smaller skirmishing is almost inevitable (as history reveals).
Can New Zealand remain intact? Can we maintain government and/or the grid, in a truly sustainable resource-throughput scenario? Or if supply chains cease (which is more or less the same question)? Are cities viable post fossil energy? (And if so, in what form?) These questions are asked by neither Left or Right – but need to be asked.
Some have chosen to believe that cultures operating prior to the fossil-fuel bonanza, had the answers. While they were certainly less consuming of resources, their approach did not evolve from a rejection of concentrated surplus energy, merely from a lack of it. Psychopathic leaders, battles, hakas, slavery, cannibalism – all suggest no utopia. We can, however, note that at a lower energy through-put, more notice is taken of seasons and natural surroundings – unsurprising given the narrower energy (and therefore life-supporting) margins.
In general terms, it is likely that globalisation has peaked and will continue to decline, whether by cultural wagon-circling or by war(s). It is likely that social interaction becomes more local – indeed it would seem inevitable. Supply chains belong to globalisation rather than localism, so expect shocks or cessation. Expect increasing triage. Expect things to get increasingly ‘more expensive’ relative to ‘incomes’ (local-authority Rates outpacing inflation, for instance). Expect activities not directly associated with real production (food will come first, and ex fossil energy, food will be a struggle) to be less sought-after.
Post-growth skills
The most essential skills will be in food-production (our glib narrative about feeding 40 million is horsepoo, and Haber-Bosch-fertilized, fossil-energy-sapping horsepoo at that. We will be struggling to feed 5 million, post fossil fuel supply-chains. Our current format – mostly producing milk-powder as a food-additive – will not persist. Initially, the food will not be being produced where the humans are, either…
Leadership will be paramount; likely local (via compromised communication-methods) and likely not including incumbents. Being able to generate confidence, adapt on the fly and think in Systems, will be attributes. MBIE, amazingly, have begun the discussion: https://motu.nz/assets/Uploads/A-guide-to-just-transitions_He-puka-arataki-whakawhitinga-tika-FINAL.pdf
Triage will be a key ingredient. We are already witnessing triage, but that is via the attempt to keep growth going. It follows that what we are currently dropping is almost certainly the wrong stuff; going backwards before we go forwards. Existing material – that which has already been mined and processed – will be fiercely cannibilised and adapted (the current government stepping-away from right-to-repair is a classic example of triage in the wrong direction).
Conclusion
Nate Hagens – onetime Wall Street adviser, now podcaster and speaker – has coined a phrase for what is ahead: the Great Simplification. He describes the one-off fossil-burn as the Carbon Pulse. The process we are headed for is a global one-off; a readjustment of epic proportions. Neither end of our current narrative – neither Left or Right – comes close to grasping the magnitude or the inevitability of this phase-change. Yet we need to write a new narrative before the growth-forever one writes us off. One our descendants and their fellow planetary-inhabitants might thank us for.
*Murray Grimwood comments on interest.co.nz as powerdownkiwi.
81 Comments
First!, we need to disregard "The Second Law of Thermodynamics" in this conversation. It is simply used in this piece to scare people, to give it some sort of, hard to argue against, scientific "gotcha". It's not the great revelation that people, mostly religious people, think it is.
Second, we need to understand that entropy is our greatest friend and life cannot exist without it. Imagine a river running from the mountain to the sea. The flow of water can be used to turn a waterwheel which can be used to make things. Entropy is increased and that's great.
Thirdly, the exponential in "exponential growth" is quite redundant. Any continuous growth, no matter how small, is exponential. The word is just used to scare people. Remember how they were throwing the word around at the beginning of the "pandemic"?
No one has said that growth would continue for eternity. However if we have the room, the resources and the need to grow, we can certainly grow. To get some idea of how things are going we can measure this annually. We can even make predictions for the next few years based on what we know. Growth is necessary sometimes. We can plan to grow at a rate of 3% a year if we want to. Growing our resources enables us to do more than just basic maintenance.
Energy resources on Earth are still immense. Oil has been "running out in 50 years" for quite a few decades now. Currently there is estimated to be two trillion barrels of oil that is recoverable with today's technology, at least another 50 years worth.
Humanity will, no doubt, face challenges and obstacles in the centuries ahead. However, we will cross the bridges as and when we come to them. Some things will change slowly, imperceptibly perhaps, as they often have. Sometimes things will change rapidly and we will soon adapt.
We will soon adapt. At what cost in bloodshed? Surviving a crisis by brute force is hardly adaption.
We are already seeing evidence of hunkering down and consolidating power.
Thirdly, the exponential in "exponential growth" is quite redundant. Any continuous growth, no matter how small, is exponential.
I think you need to dig out the schoolbooks Z.
Growth can fit a range of functions: linear, exponential, quadratic, cubic, polynomial, logarithmic, radical, and factorial. In terms of growth rate order, from slowest to fastest, a typical ordering is Constant < Logarithmic < Linear < Radical < Polynomial (quadratic, cubic, etc.) < Exponential < Factorial
The main difference between linear and exponential functions lies in how they grow or change over time: linear functions increase or decrease at a constant rate, while exponential functions change at a rate proportional to their current value, leading to much faster growth or decay as time passes.
Grimwood claims, "We concocted our ‘growth forever narrative" and also writes, "Exponential physical growth within a finite system..."
My argument is that 'exponential' in common usage is emotive because it implies extreme growth, something fatal. If you counter and say that the growth is quite small he can still claim it's fatally exponential if it goes on forever as a percentage, it'll just take longer. No economists are talking about exponential growth that goes on forever.
Of course growth can vary, but PDK doesn't seem to grasp this and neither do his knucklehead acolytes.. You see a developing country's economy growing at a higher percentage than a developed country. This is expected and anticipated. In the future, with declining populations, we may well see negative growth. Have any economists postulated exponential growth forever? PDK is using a strawman argument.
My argument is that 'exponential' in common usage is emotive because it implies extreme growth
Exponential definition: (of an increase) becoming more and more rapid.
There isn't anything emotive about it as a word, it simply is a descriptor. If rats breed in a confined, sealed area they will do so an an exponential rate until they eat each other to survive, or there is no space left to fit any more. Same applies to humans and resources as we cannot escape the planet to get more in any substantive quantity.
"Until they eat each other to survive"
Sounds pretty dramatic to me! Hilarious.
We're just talking about compounding interest essentially. Does anyone refer to their term deposit as an exponential investment?
Agree Z. Your term deposits are not 'exponential.' Better example might be crypto priced in fiat, incl the ol' rat poison, which often exhibit behavior that can be closely approximated by exponential or power-law functions over the long term, rather than linear or random movement. These assets have historically shown long-term price increases that fit an exponential trend when plotted on a logarithmic scale.
https://liquidity-provider.com/articles/bitcoin-power-law-explained-sma…
If I had a term deposit of $1,000 at 4% compounding interest, after a thousand years I'd have 450 quadrillion dollars.
Which would buy?
Where does nuclear energy fit into this framework?
I was thinking the same. At some point energy prices get high enough so other options become viable. Individually some people (relatively few) have their own solar panels, more geothermal fields are developed, the greenies get shoved aside and another dam is built, some countries will increasingly look to nuclear etc.
Thermodynamics discussions usually ignore nuclear and concentrate on fossil fuels. Nuclear is also technically stored energy so it still complies with the law, but it is so abundant in the earth in terms of energy potential that we wouldn't run out for many millennia
Must be PDK's fourth or fifth Interest diatribe with that school boy diagram that ignores nuclear energy. Nuclear derived hydrocarbons and ammonia can be plugged straight in to the oil/agriculture grid if traditional hydrocarbons ever get expensive, so the subject is avoided like the plague by peak oil tragics.
https://zetomica.com/articles/green-ammonia-production-with-nuclear-pow…
"Kuhn warned that paradigms don’t die easily. Copernicus had to fight Ptolemy’s theories, Einstein had to push past Newton’s world view, and it took plate tectonics 75 years to finally overturn the static Earth model. Peak Oil got lost when shale rewrote the script.
Technology, capital, and price—not just geology—now dictate oil supply. The 2005-2014 price boom unlocked more oil than anyone expected. Today, financial markets and geopolitics—not depletion—drive the oil game.
Shale changed everything, unleashing a massive new supply. Peak Oil still pretends it doesn’t exist—won’t even put it on a chart. That’s why it’s a dying paradigm. It had its moment and reshaped my world view in important ways. May it rest in peace."
3-cents - I won't bother answering the others, but your point needs addressed.
Money is underwritten by energy, so your price comment has to be wrong. I thought your way, until 2007/8. I was wrong. The best dam sites have been dammed, and no dam has been built without using fossil energy. Nor PV, nor e-windmill.
Nuclear, of course, conforms to the dissipation problem (ever-more-scattered resource) and the finite one. It 'fits in' by supplying electricity and leaving a toxic legacy. To replace the fossil energy we use, by, say, 2050, would need a plant built every week until then.
And the peak supply of any resource being hoed-into at an exponentially-increasing rate, happens. Many countries have passed their peak for oil.
While I understand the limits on resource availability, I think a more pressing issue is the economic effects on the global economy (the value of fiat currencies and financial assets) if China causes a reset in the price of gold. The ‘AI answer’ from my browser (Brave) when I enter ‘China revaluation of gold’ is..
China is actively engaged in a strategic effort that could lead to a revaluation of gold, driven by its central bank's sustained gold purchases and broader economic and geopolitical objectives…..
From Ed Steer..
It would appear that China is attempting to reduce the amount of physical metal available to both the LBMA and the COMEX...a short squeeze of sorts...as they attempt to wrestle the paper price control mechanism from the West to Shanghai, where it's a physical market.
https://www.intellinews.com/china-pushes-gold-custody-to-bolster-financial-influence-403155/
To replace the fossil energy we use, by, say, 2050, would need a plant built every week until then. We have record oil, coal, gas and wood production and record proven hydrocarbon reserves. Why would we need to replace traditional hydrocarbons by 2050? Or is you position so weak you have to conflate with some net zero cult talking points?
Article about net zero bro. "GenCost assumes a 30-year economic life for large-scale nuclear plants, even though they can operate for a longer period."
30 years? Only just run in. Reactors of the future will last a hundred years.
"The GenCost 2024-25 Final Report has calculated those cost advantages for the first time (using a 60-year period), finding that there are no unique cost advantages arising from nuclear technology’s long operational life. Similar cost savings are achievable from shorter-lived technologies, even accounting for the fact that shorter lived technologies need to be built twice. This is because shorter-lived technologies such as solar PV and wind are typically available at a lower cost over time, making the second build less costly.
The lack of an economic advantage for long-lived nuclear is due to substantial nuclear refurbishment costs to achieve long operational life safely. Without new investment it cannot achieve long operational life. Also, because of the long lead time in nuclear deployment, cost reductions in the second half of their operational life are not available until around 45 years into the future, significantly reducing their value to consumers compared to other options."
https://www.csiro.au/en/news/all/articles/2024/december/nuclear-explain…
No unique costs advantages? Tell that to France and Germany. France built 37 reactors in a decade and exports $5 billion a year worth of electricity. Compare that to Germany/UK that went all in on windmills and solar panels and has the most expensive electricity in the Europe. I love assumption solar/wind can innovate over time but nuclear can't. Nuclear also has the bonus of producing industrial process heat as a byproduct.
https://carboncredits.com/nuclear-education-how-germany-lost-another-wo…
Deep Fission could be about to turn nuclear build costs on their head.
"Contrary to popular perception, the huge construction expense for nuclear plants isn't the reactor itself but the extensive civil engineering needed to contain it and its support equipment. By placing the reactor deep underground, it's possible to eliminate a lot of the plant and to simplify its design, resulting in a reduction in above-ground construction costs of up to 80%."
https://newatlas.com/energy/mile-deep-nuclear-reactor-30-million/
"The results show that nuclear, hydro, coal, and natural gas power systems (in this order) are one order of magnitude more effective than photovoltaics and wind power."
ROI of run-of-river hydro power plant, New Zealand, based on numbers from Ref.
[7]. The energy payback times are in the range from 2 years (unbuffered) to 3 years
(buffered).
Installed capacity 90 MW
Lifetime 100 a
Location Waitaki River, New Zealand
Full-load hours 3000 (predictable)
Energy demand construction 1800 TJ
Energy demand maintenance 75 TJ (100 TJ for an assumed turbine replacement not included here)
Decommissioning 60 TJ
EROI 50
EROI, buffered 35
EROIs and key figures [45] of the reference nuclear power plant (100% centrifuge
enrichment in brackets). The energy payback time is about 2 months.
Installed capacity (net) 1340 MW
Full-load hours 8000
Lifetime 60 a
Output 2,315,000 TJ
Construction energy demand 4050 TJ, thereof 35% electrical
Decommissioning energy demand 1150 TJ, thereof 40% electrical
Maintenance energy demand 6900 TJ, thereof 68% electrical
Fuel related energy demand 18,800 TJ (9650 TJ), thereof 68% (40%) electrical
Sum energy demand 30,900 TJ (21,750 TJ), thereof 60% (50%)
electrical
EROI 75 (105)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360544213000492
Does this include the $100 plus million they had to grift to Nga Tahui to sign off paperwork renewals on the Waitaki?
Google: ""Humans utilize a minuscule fraction of the vast solar energy that hits Earth, though the amount absorbed in one hour is enough to power the world for a year. The Earth absorbs roughly 70% of the Sun's energy, with the remaining 30% reflected back into space. Of the absorbed energy, only a tiny fraction, about 0.1%, is used for photosynthesis, with human-generated solar technologies capturing an even smaller percentage of the total incoming solar radiation for electricity and heating. ""
I broadly concur with the idea that we are using up finite resources and that will have serious consequences. However that diagram needs the 3 wavey lines representing solar energy arriving increased to a thousand wavey lines. Also remove references to thermodynamics.
Good suggestions singautim. A thousand wavy input lines would transform that diagram. Also add a circle representing nuclear energy with a fat arrow pointing toward the central rectangle .
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"
Upton Sinclair
There is what should happen; the best card(s) to play in the circumstances. That would involve adaption of our money system to a non-growth-accommodating, then a de-growth-accommodating, format.
This is, I suspect, the key to unlock the potential for the radical re-adjustment needed.
But what does a non-growth accommodating money system look like?
Those who have had to live in places where the surface resources have been well ravaged (the Fertile Crescent and the Hanging Gardens are now sand and barren rock) have constructed non-usury token systems.
As have some elsewhere, at times.
It would be a start. But this system probably cannot be morphed (too many pieces) to that system - the overhang is probably too big already (what it one quadrillion?).
Local says eyeball trust.
It's a fascinating subject - without such a re-set via the World Bank/IMF (in other words a globally centralised agency), I'd see no chance of re-humanizing humanity. But, let's just say everyone agreed on a great big re-set.
Point is, we already have a token system (currencies) but not a non-usury token system. But non-usury simply means (if I've got this right) - no money lending, and hence no debt? A cash-only, or token-only means of trade? Is that your meaning of non-usury?
And that idea, has/is being considered in terms of sovereign debt forgiveness (a good place to start if the world was committed to a re-set IMO);
https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/debt/brief/hipc
I believe we might be in a situation where no nations are net savers (I'm not sure) - hence, that model might as well be applied globally somehow. Then each sovereign nation, based purely on population, could be awarded a fixed amount of 'tokens' to their Treasury. That, then solves public debt.
And from there I suppose we could re-value all notional assets the world over to nil.
Only physical assets and labour would remain valued according to market forces.
I can't see "eyeball trust" being any kind of workable solution.
It's one reason why I see a UBI as a sort of first 'psychological' barrier to get over in terms of transformational change. If say, NZ implemented one - and we didn't have a jump in unemployment (folks not wanting to work simply because they could subsistence live on the UBI - which is the number 1 argument against them) - then perhaps we could demonstrate to the world that radical change in thinking about money and debt and dignity, has real benefits.
.
Those who have had to live in places where the surface resources have been well ravaged (the Fertile Crescent and the Hanging Gardens are now sand and barren rock)
The Fertile Cresent as a previously lush garden ravaged by humans is cartoonishly simplistic, and quite wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4p4qt7/why_is_the_ferti…
The Fertile Crescent has not become un-fertile. In many ways, it is more "fertile" now than it has even been, although that's a very difficult thing to measure when you unpick it. It is by no means the most agriculturally productive place in the world, but the idea that it ever was is really just a product of it being particularly well suited for a particular kind of agriculture in a particular time and place that, as it turns out, was particularly significant for world history.
The Middle East has become progressively drier and hotter since the height of the last Ice Age twenty thousand years ago. In step, the more hospital "island" zones (including the Fertile Crescent) have retracted and the desert has expanded. The obvious conclusion is that the former is the primary driver of the latter.
Having said that, we can't discount the possibility that humans have accelerated, or in places even caused, the desertification process. But at the moment there just isn't enough evidence to say conclusively, and we should be wary of colonialist fairy tales of landscapes ruined by irresponsible Arabs.
Human-caused climate change is real, but you do the science a disservice by trying to twist it to suit your narrative.
(dp)
Consider the following...
83% of energy produced is currently produced by oil, gas and coal....nuclear manages a shade over 4%.
Even if we ignore any other issues how long would it take to replace that 83%?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_supply_and_consumption
It will take centuries, if ever, to deplete all the oil, gas and coal. A nuclear power station can be built in about 5 years.
We have used half the oil that was ever extracted, in the last 30 years.
And we're down to fracking (the bottom of the straw), tar-sands and deepwater. Tells you how much light sweet crude remains near the surface.
If you want to listen, that is.
Only fracking - and that depletes rapidly and is down to the Permian - has staved off the inevitable. It's not 'to deplete all' - it's past peak supply that growth is in terminal trouble. I find it interesting that people have to revert to 'running out' - that's not the problem.
Hydraulic fracturing is a good example of human ingenuity improving yields even in areas that were once thought depleted. This is why peak oil keeps getting pushed further out.
It has allowed the United States to more than double its total oil production over the course of just 10 years, pushing America once again to the position of top global oil producer. Link
Russia and Saudi Arabia still use conventional methods. Less than 20% of global oil supply is from fracking. Russia doesn't need to frack but it could extract a lot more if it did.
Two trillion barrels of oil, probably more, still out there. Then there's gas and a trillion tons of coal. Plenty of energy left to build the reactors. No hurry.
We should reach peak demand fairly soon. After that oil use will go down, not because it is rare, just that we won't need so much. Oil exporters will be competing for customers.
The Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stone
Rolande - learning to think critically, is one of the great joys.
Your parroted phrase came from a Saudi oil-sheik - claiming that because we didn't run out of stones we won't be running out of oil.
Well, first-principles tell us that if you keep using a finite resource, you run out. So his phrase is bollocks. Ask why? He needs to sell oil, with no competition.
Ask what is wrong with his phrase? And you end up with what is wrong the with blurrings of Profile and ZH.
Stones are NOT energy - he was purposely conflating apples with antelopes. The 'stone' age, in energy terms, was the firewood age. And yes, many civilisations irrupted then died, by overrunning their firewood surroundings.
Clear thinking rather than trite regurgitation - it's a lot better. :)
“The Stone Age didn’t end because we ran out of stone.”
It's not that they ran out of stone but because better alternatives like copper and, more importantly, bronze emerged. Stone and metal tools existed side by side for thousands of years. Ötzi the Iceman, who lived around 3300 BC had copper and flint tools. A flint knife was better than a copper one.
Running out of stuff can lead to other things. An example would be the drastic decline in megafauna like mammoths that spurred the development of fishing and agriculture in the search for energy. However mammoths and agriculture did exist at the same time for a while.
"first-principles tell us that if you keep using a finite resource, you run out."
Repeating this over and over again is not going to convince us that this is an immediate problem. We still have vast resources and the great resource that is the human intellect.
Put 1,000 of the smartest people on the planet, into a room.
Tell them to produce a ham sandwich.
Oh, wait...
You've written this before and it is as nonsensical now as it was then.
One thousand of the planet's smartest people could easily achieve this task.
Not without energy and resource input.
Solar energy for the wheat, solar energy for the food for the pig,
But you only have 1,000 humans in the room. Mind you, that will reduce with time...
Same happens when an oil-field or a mine plays out. Doesn't matter how smart the geologists are.
They just sent someone down to the supermarket for some bread, butter and sliced ham.
Why do you need to be silly?
So you are saying their is only one sandwich for a 1,000 people,(smart or not)?9
It must be a bloody big sandwich!
I think PDK was simply begging the question here. He could just write that without any raw materials even 1,000 of the planet's smartest people couldn't make a ham sandwich. This is something we would all agree on, but the argument is not about this. PDK's critics are arguing that there are currently enough raw materials. My earlier claim was that we have vast resources + human intellect, not just human intellect.
PDk clings to peak oil in contrast to the likes of Berman having the class to admit they got it wrong.
A qualified concession....
"Reserves are constantly changing, not fixed, and depletion isn’t as straightforward as many believe. Yes, Peak Oil will happen—finite resources eventually run out. But it’s not happening anytime soon, certainly not within the next few years, and possibly not for a few more decades. Climate change and economic challenges, including the Great Simplification, pose more immediate threats than Peak Oil."
https://www.artberman.com/blog/lazy-thinking-how-memes-get-oil-all-wron…
As he was saying.
"Kuhn warned that paradigms don’t die easily. Copernicus had to fight Ptolemy’s theories, Einstein had to push past Newton’s world view, and it took plate tectonics 75 years to finally overturn the static Earth model. Peak Oil got lost when shale rewrote the script.
Technology, capital, and price—not just geology—now dictate oil supply. The 2005-2014 price boom unlocked more oil than anyone expected. Today, financial markets and geopolitics—not depletion—drive the oil game.
Shale changed everything, unleashing a massive new supply. Peak Oil still pretends it doesn’t exist—won’t even put it on a chart. That’s why it’s a dying paradigm. It had its moment and reshaped my world view in important ways. May it rest in peace."
Art Berman has indicated what has moved his position on peak oil (and US shale) since last year....read his responses to comments in the articles.
e.g.
"Nate,
Thanks for your comments. I’ve always embraced Peak Oil as a concept, but it’s too narrow given the deeper forces at play—credit markets, geopolitics, supply chains, and governance, which many in the PO community barely grasp beyond the basics.
Whether crude + condensate peaked in Nov 2018 is secondary. The real issue is that the bell curve model is flawed. Hubbert deserves credit—he worked in the 1950s when debt and globalization weren’t even considerations.
Your work continues to both inspire and shape my own and I am grateful for that!
All the best,
Art"
https://www.artberman.com/blog/peak-oil-requiem-for-a-failed-paradigm/
Largely Bessants 3,3,3 strategy that upends previous financial considerations....take a look at how the US economy is reacting to the Trump economic agenda and ask yourself how stable any form of industry will be into the future.
Art Berman has indicated what has moved his position on peak oil - he had no choice did he! in the 1950s when debt and globalization weren’t even considerations. What a crock - has he not heard of the British Empire and all the debt fuel globalists of yesteryear.
No, he didnt have a choice when he understood what the Trump Whitehouse was prepared to do......and even with that understanding all he has done is remove his predicted timeframe.
Change subject to net zero. Check.
Blame Trump. Check.
dp - site problem?
Nonsense aside, the flow-rate of all extraction of a finite resource will peak, then decline.
Let's not obfuscate, eh?
Judging by the astonishing growth of Solar in Pakistan and the promised (in production Dec this year) CATL batteries being a tenth of the price of current batteries [they are not using any scarce resourses] then that 83% will be under 50% before 2030. Nuclear takes decades to build but solar is cheapest and installs very fast.
Energy Production and Consumption - Our World in Data
First graph down - we're ADDING, not displacing.
And they're still lithium, are they not?
And cheap is not the yardstick - of what EROEI? is.
They are not lithium. That is the big change that arrived in 2025.
Of course a technology that is promised is not the same as one in use but I'm trusting CATL - they are just too big to be lying. Also check out a small US company named "Peak Energy".
BTW I agree it will be ADDING - that is what happened in Pakistan; they didn't close down their big fossil fuel generators but they did grow their energy production. Pakistan will be followed by India, Indonesia, Africa, etc. A massive increase in electricity from solar panels and stored in batteries.
Perplexity a.i. assessment of the validity of the articles argument is as follows-
'Conclusion
Grimwood’s argument is robust on the biophysical and resource depletion logic, appropriately pessimistic about the “growth forever” narrative, and sound regarding broad thermodynamic constraints. However, he likely understates the potential role of technological shifts, such as nuclear and renewables, to mediate some impacts, and may overstate the practical feasibility of a coordinated degrowth transition. Critics in the article highlight genuine points—especially the complexities of growth modeling, resource substitution, and market adaptation—but do not undermine the core validity of the finite planet/finite resource critique. The overall argument is rigorous but would benefit from deeper integration of plausible energy transitions, technological innovation rates, and the nonlinear, unpredictable nature of societal adaptation to constraint.'
I guess this is where A.I. is not very intelligent. PDKs real argument is that resource depletion is imminent, that we are about to experience civilizational collapse and mega casualties. This means we need to implement a degrowth strategy immediately. Commenters like Profile and myself dispute this and argue that the transition from fossil fuels to nuclear and other means will be relatively gradual. Fossil fuels will be around for a very long time but will become less important especially with drastically declining human populations and more efficient technology.
There's no need for me to post the AI response to Mr Grim-wood’s article here except to say it was highly critical. But maybe this sums it up
"Grimwood raises real limits, but his case risks being overstated, vague, and one-sided, overlooking innovation, social complexity, and political realities."
Looks like AI is as ignorant as some ignorant folk. Garbage in, garbage out?
Because there is no reference to 'overstated, vague and one-sided'. That sounds very much like a one-sided comment itself.
And AI should know that 'innovation' is only technology, not energy. No energy-requiring piece of machinery is of any use whatsoever, ex fuel. So it was fed that misunderstanding, by a mis-understander.
Social complexity only makes things more fragile.
Political realities? They're a result, not a driver.
The realities of the 2nd Law, override. Time we had that discussion.
Of course you react to something which fact-checks and disagrees with you.
"Thanks for sharing Grimwood’s reply — it shows his style: blunt, dismissive, but also revealing of his worldview."
Yes, it is a worldview - and there is nothing right or wrong about anyone's worldview. That is what I tried to teach my students: i.e., to understand each and every worldview as being valid.
I wrote an article on interest many years ago on four worldviews (or 'narratives') on the environment as defined by a British planning academic - a table of each of those four is contained in that article;
https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/95483/katharine-moody-environmental-…
It's why I like this website, as there is such a worldview diversity. On environmental matters, I can usually get to understand each commentators point-of-view very quickly. The key is to be able to converse without prejudice/judgment and to meld all these worldviews together to find a common ground, or way forward.
Must make marking papers very easy. Everyone always gets 100%. Words fail me quite honestly.
LOL. Definitely, wrong.
There, I've marked you and it took no time at all to give you a fail :-).
"there is nothing right or wrong about anyone's worldview"
Yes in general I agree. But no one should be so fixed in their outlook that they cannot see anything but their own opinion. Have you ever noticed how Powerdownkiwi attempts to twist virtually every single subject matter into his favourite one, no matter that there is no connection?
Yes, I have. And I so agree with you that the whole objective of solving problems, particularly complex environmental problems, requires us to find shared meaning - the whole point of my earlier article;
Understanding is a marvelous thing. Metaphorically speaking, it can restore eyesight to the blind. It can sooth hurt feelings, assuage guilt, calm anger, activate deep compassion, and release enormous amounts of creativity and passion.
Understanding among and between people flows from the creation of shared meaning.
Shared meaning does not mean that everyone in the conversation sees things in the same way.
Shared meaning does mean each stakeholder in the conversation shares what is meaningful to them as it pertains to creating the desired future those in the conversation are seeking to create.
Shared meaning occurs when people understand each other’s perspectives well enough to accept them as legitimate in the context of exploring and realising a desired future.
And I note within this very thread - only pdk has responded to my idea about the need to change the global financial system. Or do all the "stock of assets" / Enlightenment thinkers think that's just working fine? The funny thing I've found is that the ones that perhaps have the brain power to re-design the mess we've made in that regard (economists) aren't leading the way. Economics itself is an Enlightenment offspring. For example, what I've read of the newly proposed RMA from the current government - there seems to be some thought that a "property rights" based regime will "save" us.
It's getting off the subject but sure, what's the goal. Some countries have implemented massive change using military force, that doesn't work out very well for most or for the economy. To me, mere money doesn't bring happiness, there is another global purpose involving finances. They say to store up your treasure in heaven where moth and rust do not corrupt and thieves do not break in and steal. From Matthew 6
It's getting off the subject but sure, what's the goal.
The goal is not to ruin the planet and all the other species on it..
The current global financial system (our ways and means of trade) are seeing big business now over-using water resources such that, for example, aquifers supplying drinking water are running dry and much of the freshwater from larger rivers never reaches the sea due to over-allocation.
NZ could be world leading in this. We just have to implement a capital gains tax and rent controls first
We could and should. This is such a small economy, we should be highly flexible , or easily adaptable to change. e.g., if the course is wrong, we don't need to turn the Queen Mary around on a dime.
The UBI I modelled for NZ - deals with both new taxes (needed to balance the budget) and targeted rent control (for single income families with no income other than the UBI).
My 'weekly maximum' rent affordability model (a regulatory framework for private sector residential rental business) is not needed if a UBI is introduced. Well, that's the theory/objective anyway.
LOL. Definitely, wrong.
There, I've marked you and it took no time at all to give you a fail :-).
Oh and by the way, you've got a 'stock of assets' environmental worldview.
My article was about fractured narratives.
And about base-line truths (which, en passant, render all but a narrow sliver of narratives, invalid).
And most 'worldviews' are therefore wrong. Prima facie wrong.
All three of you could try a little experiment: stop eating. Every following day, track your output on an exercycle. Hint - towards the end, you may need a still-eating assistant to fill in your chart. Low-entropy energy was what was curtailed in that experiment - there are no other outcomes; no other options.
Same with the Titanic - there were enough people on it to have the narratives covered - ' not enough heat' got most of them, as I recall (what there was, was of too low an entropy - not enough molecule-jiggling going on).
As for the 'comes back to it' comment - if you're on the Titanic, anything topic other than the ramifications of the iceberg collision is an essentially wasted discussion-time. By some orders of magnitude. We should ask why the urge to avoid? Why the need to diss (to avoid)? Why the need to believe (straw-clutching, it often appears as)?
We can do ourselves the biggest favour - given what is already unfolding globally - by thinking logically, laterally and systemically. Most don't.
Why don't you answer Grattaways question below about solutions. As you said yourself "Why the urge to avoid"
I'll give it a crack.
Why avoid?....because the probable outcome is (politically) unsaleable at the present point in time. That does not mean its not he sensible thing to do.
Each and every world view is valid??
So its ok that Putin's world view has Ukraine as part of Russia
and I dont find President Trump or Xi's world views valid at all - never mind the Ayatollah's view that has women as chattels
and dont even start with religion and the world views involved therein
I guess if all worldviews are valid then none of them are valid. I think Kate means all worldviews are emotionally valid even though from a scientific or ethical standpoint some worldviews are patently invalid.
You're at your articulate best today Zachary, I have enjoyed reading your takedowns though sometimes harsh
We're talking philosophical worldviews on the solutions to environmental matters, not political ones or economic ones.
And neither do such worldviews, or narratives on environmental matters involve religious beliefs.
So, one can be any religion and hold a 'stock of assets' environmental worldview.
PDK you are right that over consuming resources results in depletion - and that if we dont change the human species will be negatively impacted.
But this assumes no change to the status quo with regards to the growth of new/alternative energy sources
Doesnt move the debate much with regards to when we may reach resource limit - (and if we have reached peak oil its similar for peak population)
and seems to me not to offer much of a solution other than returning to some 19th century existence which the majority will not see as a solution at all
So whats your solution to actually balance the resource/energy books - and one that you could sell to the "masses" . It will need to be good to compete with religion and the current global warming mantra
'But this assumes no change to the status quo with regards to the growth of new/alternative energy sources'
Yes, it does (and Obama beat you to it; appointed Chu first-term (I heard Chu speak first-hand) then dumped him 2nd term. Asking 'why'? is well worth it (hint: Chu is from the nuclear industry). Take a look at the graph of all energy sources globally (I put it up upthread, from memory). We ADD, not displace. Keep adding primary energy-heat at the rate we are, and we boil the oceans in 400 years (one suspects some parameter may interrupt that trend...). We'd have to have found it already and be able to scale it almost immediately USING THE EXISTING ENERGY-INFRASTRUCTURE. And yes, it needed to be shouted.
There are multiple other Boundaries which would hit, even if we solved energy (if we're collecting solar energy, the nonsense comments above have to be put in context; one does not build a hydro-dam for every raindrop - it doesn't scale. Same with solar energy - very scattered. Otherwise known as high-entropy - you're starting from further to the right, in the (article) diagram.
If you're talking of continued consumption - sorry, I have no good news. And life will not be as 'easy' - what do you expect with less energy to do the work?
But meaningful and rewarding are not necessarily dependent on consumption - that's just Bernays and advertising. One can do a great deal, enjoy much and have positive interactions with other people (and nature), while consuming little-or-nothing.
My 'solution' - not that I created the problem, nor is it disproving of my article's posit that I don't have a way to keep on keeping on - is to de-globalise, de-complexify, save/build things which last, or at least which can be repaired with ease. To think in terms of sunlit acres per head (leaving some for the rest of the biosphere). This suggests encouraging population-reduction as fast as possible. 8 Billion Will Die! | Do the Math (read it all; not just the headline!).
That has other repercussions - if you're targeting 2 million or less for NZ (Soddy and Wells got to 200,000,000 globally, most modern estimates of consumption at our current rate (but not drawing-down resources) seem to be around 600,000,000. Either way, you have no 'housing crisis' for a hundred years - if they are liveable where they are, of course (1/4 acre and bigger might have a chance; I see most modern track housing and all high-rise being somewhat sub-optimal.
Usually, folk ask that question because if you cannot promise continuance, they cranially make the leap to rejecting your posit (meaning continuance is a given for them). It's faulty thinking - as so much is.
My 'thing' these days is identifying/collecting/restoring tools - hand-tools in particular - which have stood the test of time and which will be future-useful.
"" Keep adding primary energy-heat at the rate we are, and we boil the oceans in 400 years"" this is true if that energy is produced by fossil fuels. It is not true if it is solar panels and batteries. Recently Pakistan added 25% to its energy-heat by use of cheap solar panels - replacing wood fires with electric stoves, reducing demand on the failing national grid supplied fossil fuel electricity. That increase of 25% useful electricity had no effect on the oceans because they added zero CO2 emissions. The economy of Pakistan didn't grow 25% - very cheap solar is the future for the world or at least the 80% that is under developed. Expect a massive increase in electrical energy but a mild reduction in fossil fuel CO2 emissions.
Two years from now this site will be discusing how to subsidise the demolition and moth-balling of coal and oil powered electrical generation. The owners of big generators whether they are private or govt will be resisting change and will have to be bribed into doing the right thing for our climate.
How are you going to keep economic growth going while transiting to a higher-entropy energy source? (I've been off-grid on PV for over 20 years now, so no knocker of the tech, just a realist).
Related to the first question: What is 'cheap'? when it already takes more than a dollar of debt to 'generate' a dollar of GDP?
And how are you going to supply the resources? Using Fossil? To build a like-for-like replacement? Of everything, or just the grid? And avoiding child-slaves in the Congo, of course. And what about future generations - obligations thereto?
And if you go to solar-capture in real-time, what is your spatial demand? Displacing what? (there was a discussion about biomass this a.m., it is spatial coverage, when you trace it back.
Despite my degree in maths/Physics I don't really grasp entropy so other than steam engines having a theoretical maximum efficiency it is not helping you persuade me.
Until very recently (a few months ago) I thought your argument that energy is all that matters and finite reserves of fossil fuels and ever increasing energy required to develop them was a solid argument. I dreamed of nuclear fusion and even fission but realised they were a long way off and seemingly getting ever further away the more I studied.
You have your own power (off grid). What if everyone could do so by putting cheap solor panels on their roof? Really cheap so include 3rd world users. Well it is happening; relatives in Papuan villages can freeze their fish before taking it to market in the city. But there were problems with this - no power at night meant either retaining the grid or using batteries that were expensive, used rare earths, caused fires, had limited lifespan. However the development of safe, Sodium-Ion batteries that work for far longer and in a much wider range of temperatures and a tenth of the price is a game changer. What you did 20 years ago will be done throughout the world. Developed countries will try fighting back but fail because price wins. I'm on-grid to the cost of $300 per month; if you can fully replace that for say $3000 then I'm of-grid in a flash along with the rest of NZ. Maybe it will start with schools, hospitals, retirement villages, apartment blocks but it will happen.
I'm not sure what you mean by spatial coverage -solar goes on roofs, solar farms in China grow plants - they may even help with revegetating deserts. Google again: ""A tiny fraction, estimated to be well under 1%, of the solar power that arrives on Earth annually is equivalent to all human electrical production from all sources."" so if all electricity on earth was solar and conservatively triple it (and don't use the land under it) and it would be under 3% of our surface - make that land only and still under 10%. Allow for hydro and existing nuclear and it reduces (wind power will be obsolete - too costly, too short a lifespan).
Despite my degree in maths/Physics I don't really grasp entropy so other than steam engines having a theoretical maximum efficiency it is not helping you persuade me.
Until very recently (a few months ago) I thought your argument that energy is all that matters and finite reserves of fossil fuels and ever increasing energy required to develop them was a solid argument. I dreamed of nuclear fusion and even fission but realised they were a long way off and seemingly getting ever further away the more I studied.
You have your own power (off grid). What if everyone could do so by putting cheap solor panels on their roof? Really cheap so include 3rd world users. Well it is happening; relatives in Papuan villages can freeze their fish before taking it to market in the city. But there were problems with this - no power at night meant either retaining the grid or using batteries that were expensive, used rare earths, caused fires, had limited lifespan. However the development of safe, Sodium-Ion batteries that work for far longer and in a much wider range of temperatures and a tenth of the price is a game changer. What you did 20 years ago will be done throughout the world. Developed countries will try fighting back but fail because price wins. I'm on-grid to the cost of $300 per month; if you can fully replace that for say $3000 then I'm of-grid in a flash along with the rest of NZ. Maybe it will start with schools, hospitals, retirement villages, apartment blocks but it will happen.
I'm not sure what you mean by spatial coverage -solar goes on roofs, solar farms in China grow plants - they may even help with revegetating deserts. Google again: ""A tiny fraction, estimated to be well under 1%, of the solar power that arrives on Earth annually is equivalent to all human electrical production from all sources."" so if all electricity on earth was solar and conservatively triple it (and don't use the land under it) and it would be under 3% of our surface - make that land only and still under 10%. Allow for hydro and existing nuclear and it reduces (wind power will be obsolete - too costly, too short a lifespan).
So whats your solution to actually balance the resource/energy books
The above diagram creator and promoter of bioeconomics, wrote his thoughts on a solution in the article;
Georgescu-Roegen, N. (1975). Energy and Economic Myths. Southern Economic Journal, 347-381
He called it, "A Minimal Bioeconomic Program". I'd rather folks read the whole article; but here's a summary from me -
1.The production of instruments of war, not only war itself, should be prohibited completely.
2.The underdeveloped nations must be aided to arrive as quickly as possible at a good (not luxurious) life.
3.Mankind should gradually lower its population to a level that could be adequately fed by organic agriculture.
4.All waste of energy by overheating, overcooling, overspeeding, overlighting etc. should be carefully avoided, and if necessary, strictly regulated.
5.We must cure ourselves of the morbid craving for extravagant gadgetry (e.g., golf carts).
6.Consumers should reeducate themselves to despise fashion. Manufacturers will then have to focus on durability.
7.All durable goods must be designed so as to be repairable.
8.We must cure ourselves of going faster, to make something that goes faster, so we have time to make something that goes faster; ad infinitum. We must come to realize that an important prerequisite for a good life is a substantial amount of leisure spent in an
intelligent manner.
Thanks Kate I will read
There are of course a couple of other philosophical "thoughts" that go with PDK's article
1. That people not yet born dont have any rights or say - associated with - if you dont like the position the world is in then dont have any children
2. When the resources are gone humans die out and the planet goes on - maybe in a million years a new advanced species will trawl through our history just like we do with dinosaurs etc etc
Personally I think our track record is pretty bad with regards to doing the right thing so we will just carry on until we cannot - all the while hoping for a miracle - which is kinda ironic given that most of us dont believe in them anyway
It is interesting the comments this thread has got.
It's almost like people have no answers for the present issues and have to project to some future end of days that we have no control over.
I would say it is part of the natural human psyche to project rather than focus on the now.
And if course the key is to also project far enough ahead so you are never around to reap the consequences of your negative projections, including possible ridicule.
Funny that.
Interesting comment - but I'd say the reverse was true. I reckon we are incredibly short-sighted, almost all our leadership and planning have time-windows of months or single-figure years; only the things we don't really want to do (wean ourselves from low-entropy energy being one of them - carbon-neutral by 2050) have long ones.
There ARE answers to the present issues - but that doesn't involve a bigger version of the current System. That fact leads to the rejection-needing-to-justify-itself which we see upthread.
We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment.
Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.