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Labour to run on capital gains tax, 39% top income tax rate, GST off fresh fruit and vegetables, tax cuts for majority of taxpayers

Labour to run on capital gains tax, 39% top income tax rate, GST off fresh fruit and vegetables, tax cuts for majority of taxpayers

By Alex Tarrant

Labour will contest the November 26 election with a 15% capital gains tax on assets other than the family home, a 39% top personal income tax rate for incomes over NZ$150,000 and a tax cuts for the majority of taxpayers.

The task of winning the election will prove to be a hard one, with Labour languishing behind National in the polls - it sat below 30% before this package was announced - while Prime Minister John Key continues to trump Labour's Phil Goff in prefered Prime Minister stakes.

Labour is touting its new policy as a credible alternative to the government's economic plan, which includes NZ$5 billion-NZ$7 billion in proceeds in the next five years from selling off minority stakes in four state-owned energy companies as part of an attempt to reach a budget surplus in 2014/15 with net government debt remaining below 30% of GDP.

The policy released today was centred around a 15% capital gains tax on all capital assets bar owner-occupied housing from the 2012/13 financial year. The tax would not collect much revenue in the short-term. Only NZ$18 million would be collected in 2012/13, with annual revenues rising to NZ$2.27 billion per year in ten years time, according to research done for the Labour Party by BERL.

A 39% top personal income tax rate would be applied to those earning more than NZ$150,000 - a policy that would raise NZ$300 million a year. This would pay for Labour's policy of taking GST from fresh fruit and vegetables.

The new top tax bracket would affect the top 2% of income earners, Labour said, sourcing figures from the Inland Revenue Department.

Labour is also proposing to make first NZ$5,000 of all income tax free - a move that will cost NZ$1.3 billion a year. This would mean tax payers earning up to NZ$158,750 would receive income tax cuts, Labour said.

Labour will also bring farmers under the ETS from 2013 to pay for the resumption of R&D tax credits and try to stamp down on tax avoidence, in a bid to raise enough money alongside the capital gains tax to cover cost incurred by the NZ$5,000 tax-free threshold. However, figures supplied by BERL show net additional government revenue would be negative from 2013/14 to 2017/18, indicating Labour would have to borrow more money than National in the short-term.

From 2018/19 onwards, Labour is proposing net additional revenue would rise from NZ$238 million to NZ$2.515 billion by 2024/25. Proceeds would be used to repay government debt. Labour said it would look to reduce net Crown debt including the Superannuation fund to zero by 2022/23 - the same track as Treasury projections.

What's more, Labour says it is basing its assumptions around a lower GDP track than Treasury is expecting over the next five years, meaning it is expecting tax revenue to track lower than current forecasts before its changes are taken into assumption.

Capital gains tax

The new tax would apply to capital gains made from the point the tax is implemented at a rate of 15% with no indexation for inflation. The tax would be paid at point of sale. Labour associate finance spokesman David Parker said the tax being 15% instead of a person's marginal rate, effectively took away the need to index for inflation.

The family home will be exempt, as will all inherited assets. Collectables like art, books or jewelery would also be exempt - Labour says the tax would not apply to personal property. However if these types of assets were sold regularly by a professional trader, the tax would apply.

All share sales would be subject to the tax, unless the IRD regards the seller as a professional trader, in which case profits would be taxed at the trader's current rate, like the status quo.

There will be special concessions for small business owners and owner-operators aged over 55 who worked in their business and had personally owned the business for more than 15 years who sold in order to fund their retirement. The first NZ$250,000 of these people's capital gain would be tax free. Labour would set up an "expert panel" to determine what constituted a small business.

If a farm is sold, the value of the main farm residence will not be subjected to the tax, and surrounding land used for domestic purposes would also be tax-free. Wider land used for farming business would be subject to the tax.

Properties in the CERA zone in Christchurch would have a 15 5 year exemption from the tax.

Capital losses could be carried forward and offset against future capital gains.

How assets will be valued

Labour was going to be following the Canadian and South African-style approach, which was there would be a future date nominated as valuation day, probably a date sometime in 2013, finance spokesman Cunliffe said.

“At that date, all of the assets which qualify for CGT would have to have a valuation. Firstly, we would time it so that the QV property valuations were current, so it wouldn’t be a big deal about real estate – that would be done automatically. Secondly, there would be a choice of easy methods for people to value businesses, and shares of course are relatively easy because you can just take either the book value or the market value," Cunliffe said.

Assets would only be taxed on their capital gains from that date.

The details of those ‘ready- reckonem’ methods will be worked out by the expert tax panel, in the same way for example South Africa created a panel of experts to decide their three methods," Cunliffe said.

"It’s important to note that the taxpayer gets the choice of what suits them the best, what’s the easiest and most favourable to them [in terms of valuation method]," he said.

Here's the full release from Labour.


Here's the reaction from Finance Minister Bill English:

Just as the economy is gaining momentum, the last thing New Zealand needs is more taxes and more debt, Finance Minister Bill English says.

“The economy is really gathering momentum, as we saw in the encouraging GDP data today showing the economy grew significantly faster than expected in the March quarter despite the earthquake,” he says. “More taxes and more debt under Labour would put that at risk.

“New Zealanders have a clear choice: Labour wants to take New Zealand backwards with more taxes, more spending and more debt. National will take the country forward by growing the economy, getting back to surplus by 2014/15 and repaying debt.

“Labour has clearly learned nothing from its failed policies of the past. Having left New Zealand with forecasts of ever-rising debt and permanent deficits when he was kicked out of office in 2008, Phil Goff now wants to go back and do the same all over again.

“After making lavish spending promises over the past two years, it’s had to come up with a hodge-podge tax grab that will be good only for the armies of bureaucrats and tax accountants needed to administer it.

“Even on their numbers - and with no accounting for their spending promises - Labour would borrow more every year until 2018/19.

“It would also have six income tax rates, a GST that applies to some things but not others, a big gap between the company rate and the top tax rate and a capital gains tax on productive industries with a maze of exemptions that raises virtually no revenue in the first few years. All of this would encourage tax avoidance.

“Instead of more taxes, New Zealand needs more taxpayers. Instead of growing the Government, we need to grow the economy,” Mr English says.

And from ACT leader Don Brash:

It’s a sad day when the Labour Party retrieves and brandishes rusty old bludgeons from nasty old socialist dungeons, says ACT New Zealand Leader Dr Don Brash.

Responding to Labour’s proposals for a Capital Gains Tax of 15 per cent and increased personal tax rates on incomes above $150,000 announced today, Dr Brash says Labour has blown an opportunity to re-establish itself as a forward-looking party that is economically as well as socially liberal, as the Lange-Douglas Government was.  It has addressed a real crisis with an unrealistic, unimaginative and unwieldy solution, fraught with exceptions and exemptions.

“What we need right now is to grow the economy, not the government,” says Dr Brash.  “This is not a time to be introducing new taxes and raising existing ones. Labour’s CGT is quite simply a proposal to punish success.  It is politics and economics as if envy mattered.

“A Capital Gains Tax means you are clobbered twice: once when you create or earn wealth, the second time when you dispose of it.  The fact that we already have it in some form is no excuse for extending it.

“Yes, our fiscal situation is serious.  But the main reason for that is the on-going failure of successive governments to bring their own spending under control.  And the main reason for that is burgeoning monolithic government that would have even Michael Joseph Savage, Peter Fraser and Walter Nash rolling in their graves.

“These champions of the common man and woman would be ashamed of what Phil Goff is advocating.  Imagine their reaction to taxing profits on the sale of family baches!

“Under Michael Joseph Savage in the late thirties, government spending was about 20% of GDP. Under Michael Cullen, in 2005, it was 29%.  It is now around 36%.

“ACT proposes in the short term to reduce it to Michael Cullen’s level.  Long term, we advocate a serious assault on both spending and taxes, with the former capped and the latter low and flat.  We want an ethos where entrepreneurialism is celebrated and success rewarded. I’ll be announcing detailed policy in due course.

“Phil Goff has gambled that pushing the envy button will return Labour to the treasury benches.  Every indication thus far is that he’s underestimated the intelligence and common decency of the electorate with this retrograde and unseemly policy,” Dr Brash concludes.

And the Green Party:

The Green Party today welcomed Labour’s formal adoption of a capital gains tax policy which will deliver a fairer tax system and create a more efficient and productive economy, Green Party Co-leader Dr Russel Norman said today.

“A comprehensive tax on capital gains, excluding the family home, is a critical component of rebalancing our economy, which is why we’ve supported it. Labour has had the courage to recognise and implement good tax policy and we congratulate them for that,” said Dr Norman.

“This shift in Labour’s policy will help lift our long-term economic performance and create a fairer, more progressive tax system.

“We have some concerns with Labour’s design of a capital gains tax and look forward to working with the ‘Expert Panel’ they propose to set up to look at design and implementation issues before the tax is ultimately adopted in 2013.”

Labour proposes raising a flat capital gains tax set at 15 percent while increasing the top income tax rate to 39 percent for those on incomes over $150,000. This leaves a significant tax differential between income earned from capital gains and income from other sources such as wages.

“Labour’s design for a capital gains tax leaves intact some incentives to continue to invest for capital gains rather than productive returns,” said Dr Norman.

“A fairer, more consistent approach would be to tax capital gains at the marginal tax rate of the seller while indexing any capital gains for the effects of inflation. This would make the capital gains tax more progressive while treating all income alike.

“But this is a detail we can address in open consultation with the public and experts alike.

“In the meantime, I congratulate Phil Goff for his adoption of complex but far-sighted economic policy that closes the largest single remaining loophole in our income tax system.”

(Updated with reactions, comments on valuations full release and link to Berl report)

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Any young aspirational Kiwi who wants to build his/ her wealth should emigrate now to a more favourable tax jurisdiction .

Why any Kiwi with half a brain would vote for any new additional tax is frankly beyond me .

Labour is hell bent on keeping us a low wage , high tax welfare state , NZ is  not for ambititous people.  

The new tax rates are mere proposals, yet NZ is already a low wage state, and always has been.

Why is that?

Previous and current tax rates don't encourage NZ employers to pay their staff properly, so I doubt anything short of armed force could do it.

They only need to emigrate if Labour gets in - and that's not neccessarily assured.

Yes,agree Boatman.  What is particularly galling is that there will be no provision for inflation, and with all the money creation going on there is very likely to be considerable inflation in the years ahead.  Avoid the Labour proposal like the plague, although I do appreciate that they probably haven't a hope in hell in getting elected.  Sure they will appeal with a CGT to their core blue collar constituency, but will scare off the upper-middle class urban liberals who were such a fan of Helen Clark and who did very well thank you under her government. Next political poll will be interesting.

So make it 30%, and allow for inflation then! Still only the company tax rate that CG should be paid on, already; and they aren't even currently indexed, so still a better alternative? 15% flat, look generous, to me.

"The new tax would apply to capital gains made from the point the tax is implemented..."

Would it apply to a sale of an asset purchased, say, 10 years ago?

I doubt it, alex. But if I thought Labour might get in, then I'd be selling now . After "CGT Day" anyone buying my property will be paying less, to account for that possible 15% tax they will have to pay when they sell.

In a market with a surplus of housing yes.

In a market with supply problem people will be adding to the asking price.  If your selling your house you'd expect to have enough money to immediately buy an identical house without a bigger mortgage.  If not you'd ask for more so that you could (been to Sydney ever?)

BS NA - didn't happen in Aust, why here?

Today's Herald: "Gains will be from "v-day" - valuation day, when the regime comes into force - and will apply to assets held then, not just to those acquired after then as in Australia".

So, somebody who bought an investment property in 1980 would have to pay in "CGT" tax essentially 15% of the selling price! And the inflation component is not taken into account at all.- Crazy...

Looks like that would be it, Alex! As you can tell from my pre-announcement comment yesterday, it's more, bolder, than I had expected. And as I also posted yesterday, and probably more-so today : "If I owned property and I thought Labour would get in, I'd be outta the propety market like a shot." I guess that's a descision for you to make, now, as well? ( NB: It's not 15% of the selling price. It's 15% of the change in value from "V Day' value  to the actual sale price)

So, somebody who bought an investment property in 1980 would have to pay in "CGT" tax essentially 15% of the selling price! And the inflation component is not taken into account at all.- Crazy..

No. The capital gains tax would be 15% of the difference between the selling price and the value of the property on valuation day some time in 2013.

There I have just saved you lots of money, want to send me some :-)


FFS.. How can we be better off but also repay the debt mountain.. The 15% off fresh fruit and vege what a nightmare the cost to supermarkets etc to administer will cost us more than the savings... my prediction fruit and vege go up the day it comes into force... So the tax will be taken from 'the rich' to pay for the 300 million tax loss with no reduction in prices... awesome plan Phil.. That just reduces the expendible cash of people who can afford to stimulate the economy... Vote buying at its worst...

Hell, we are truly stuffed.

Beam me out Scotty.

This is truely a goofy plan..  I think I will stay put in Australia

If Labour are really set on a CGT they should look at the idea of taper relief as in the UK. There, for every year the asset is held, there is a deduction in the % of the gain which is subject to tax up to a maximum of 10 years. Thus, for the sake of argument, if the asset is sold after 1 year 40% of the total profit is subject to tax, whereas if it is held for 10 years, only 10% of the profit is subject to tax. This is designed to protect long term asset holders (ie someone building a business up, whilst penalising flippers etc.

John Key should immediately front foot the debate and tell Parliament that the reason for the huge deficit of $300 million a week , is that our biggest expense is Welfare .

We are borrowing money on international markets to fund unemployed layabouts  and their P habits , excessive smoking and international fast food giants like KFC and MacDonalds who find us so profictalbe they are increasing their NZ Footprint .

We need welfare reform right now , not some new  tax to lump of people who we think are the "rich"  , but who , by OECD or even Aussy standards, are actually quite poor.

Goff is frankly  an idiot 

Aside from the questionable validity of your claim, do you really think John Key would have the balls to do that!? I didn't think so...

"our biggest expense is Welfare ."

That claim is repeatedly made by people such as yourself, but it is yet to be supported by anyone in a position to know the facts.

Does anyone here genuinely know the ratio of "dole bludgers" et al to taxpayers? (By taxpayers, I'm referring to people who do actually pay some, not to corporate welfare beneficiaries and other tax evading slime.)

What do you think WFF, interest free student loans, Independanct earner tax credits, etc are - they're welfare expenses.

I'm quitting the property market if Labour wins the election. I will move to a country which does not have this damn CGT.

Once I am gone there will be a shortage of rental properties here and the rents will shoot up. That will teach ya losers not to mess with us landlords.


Can I have one of your houses?  It has to be nice 'though.  Housing NZ offered me quite a few, but they weren't good enough so I had to turn them down.

BTW landlord is not a landlord.  He's being sarcastic.  Winding you up.

Hadn't planned on learning Cantonese, but now as a HK resident, I might just have too. NZ looks very unattractive from this distance. Wait until the Chinese buyers who are underpinning the property market find out.

 What a load of shite. So many holes in this you can use it to strain the veg.     

 "no indexation for inflation"...harrrrrrrrrrhahahaha....oh yeah this will be a vote winner.

 "Collectables like art, books or jewelery would also be exempt " rare books and paintings will shoot up in price if these idiots are elected. And I'm pleased to have exited shares because they will take a hit if these idiots look like being elected.

Oh shite I give up's just sooo funny....the bureaucrats will love it...all the unemployed will get jobs with the IRD just to move the piles of paper from one desk to the next....

OK - you can have my house for $600K - as long as you also buy this picture I drew of it for $300K

fn brilliant bob.. best avoidance plan yet

No probs. Bob. But whoever buys your house will be up for CGT of the diff between $600k and whatever THEY sell it for if it ever turns into anything less than the Family Home. And if it stays the FH, they don't need to sell their art with it ,come sale time! ( and who knows what might happen to CGT re the FH down the road ? Would you want that off-market price risk as a buyer?)

So they are going to also tax capital gains on the sale of shares at 15% also.  So if they are going to take into account gains are they going to allow for any loss to be offsett.  A repeat of the 1987 crash and the government could be liable for a massive bill themselves.  I'd like further details on the treatment of shares.  Hopefully labour doesn't get in.  What a joke.

I think what this 'plan' makes very obvious Sam, is just how weak Labour are when it comes to economics and finance. They think the headlines will win them votes. The question is....are Kiwi voters stupid enough to see this plan as a pathway to wealth and less debt? 

I hate to say it Wolly.. but yes Kiwi voters are that stupid.. if the rich are going to pay and Im going to be better off then hell Ill vote for you... doesn't matter that it's not even possible to deliver...

Kiwi voters were stupid enough to vote in this current lot of idiots, the ones borrowing the nation into oblivion. And voters were stupid enough to vote in all the previous bands of idiots too. Whether you vote for Labour or National (or any of the other current options) you are only benefiting those for whom you vote when you vote for them.

Of course if you're as big an idiot as those for whom you vote then you will tell yourself it's all just a great big footy match, and that YOUR POLITICAL FOOTY TEAM MUST WIN AT ALL COSTS, AND MUST BE DEFENDED TO THE DEATH. As must your decision to support them. So keep on lying and spinning and making apologies for the people bleeding you and the rest of the nation dry. You may as well, since there's no better use for your vote anyway.

Hear hear Hugh.

Sorry Hugh, I take issue with that, they didn't just stand idly by, they rode it like the crest of a wave.  Money flowed into the country, kiwis bought the same houses off each other for increasing sums of money which washed into the rest of the economy generating surpluses for the Govt which they used to buy votes.

Dont worry Labour could pull a trillion dollars from there ar** and they still wont get in....they are seen as  weak weak weak,,with the leader the weakest of the lot.

So instead of buying a further property, I buy more  shares, oh hang on, shares will be subject to a CGT on point of sale as well under the Labour scheme.  Good one Goff.

And how much extra hundreds of millions will be going into Inland Revenue to monitor and regulate everything, as for having some foods exempt from GST what a shambolic situation that will eventuate, and more need to have countless bean counters to regulate and monitor.

What a pathway for the future!!

No, me. Bernard, Alex, and others have assured us that the CGT will make us all rush out with a happy skip in our step and invest in shares becuase the CGT will give us a balanced taxation system in NZ and it will favour investments in the productive sector!

Here is an interesting tax table to have an argument over 


What would be more interesting is how much tax would the $150k + pay if they actually paid their full entitlement? Same goes for the bracket that sits between $50k - $150k. If we paid tax as the law intended, not how we can make it benefit by trying to 'dodge', then CGT would not be on the table?

It's mighty how the 'rich' squeal when they have been called out! Lucky you have a vote...better make it count then eh?

Yea would be interesting..... I may have paid no tax on my drawings by using the laws provided but my company paid over 1 million in company tax and my 20 staff all paid PAYE....

We wouldn't be 'dodging' as you call it if we wern't paying for people who choose not to work, choose to smoke, choose to eat fast food and not exercise...

We wouldn't be 'dodging' as you call it if we wern't paying for people who choose not to work, choose to smoke, choose to eat fast food and not exercise... 

So if NZ had no unemployment (as I assume you assume everyone on unemployment chooses not to work), and if Hone gets his way and tobacco products become illegal to sell, and if we also outlaw McDs, KFC, Subway, Fish & Chips, Chinese takeaways and pizza, and if all NZers were compulsory made to walk 3 miles a day .... then you'd be prepared not to 'dodge' paying tax on your company drawings?


Thanks Kate for reading my mind... (Assuming what others assume is really communist type politics) My point is that social reform is required not just further taxing.. I pay no tax on my drawings because I donate to charity 3 x what my tax bill would be.. which actually leaves me far worse off but the money goes to places that distribute the wealth efficiently..  

Good on you - I'd be interested to know which of the charities you think are most efficient at distributing your wealth.  I've always favoured the Sallies.

And I agree about the need for both tax and welfare reform.

But isn't that a different story? You are talking about social reform not tax reform. The country has always operated socially so I am not sure why the 'rich' get upset about supporting our unhealthy cousins?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for dropping social welfare but then what impact will that have for our country? That is not the country I want to live in and I have worked in countries with no social benefits. And no, that is not an open smart arse answer for idealogies!

I'm lucky to be in the $150k bracket with 5 kids and my own company employing 4 people. I assume you feel like you are paying your way but I know that I am not as the tax law intended. I am working it and if you and I and others are doing the same then you cant blame tax reform to try and catch more?

All said and done...from looking at this the size of IRD would have to quadruple in size. If it was blanket I might have been a little more interested?

Agree with you there.

Looks to me like very costly, messy, tweeking and poking.

Sure as heck ain't gonna put any accountants out of business!

15% tax on a capital gain. Would this mean a 15% tax credit on a capital loss?

Nice to think that the taxpayer will help foot any loss from a risky investment.

Also, how can I structure the sale to show a capital loss . . . . . ?

I suggest that a CGT is not as simple as conveyed and will not be open to abuse.

"Capital losses could be carried forward and offset against future capital gains" You have to make a  profit somewhere down the line to off set a capital loss against. It's not just a cheque back in the mail , or an offset against PAYE.

It's still a loss that gets offset by profit which then means no tax... so its a liability on the books..

I'd suggest it's an off-set against future capital gains, not profit, as such, as a CG is only resalised on sale etc.

Sure but an oppurtunity to sell down overvalued properties to avoid CG on future sales

But that's only after CGT Day. One would then have to buy a property, say, at an overvalued price to subsequently sell it at a loss to claim the cgt deferral. Currently held stock should be discounted on sale, after CGT Day, as it will be CGT'able by the new owner. But, hey. I'm not a tax lawyer!

Nic.. I would imagine that an investment property will require a valuation at time of introduction of a CGT otherwise no investment properties will be sold..

Always a way around reducing tax..

You could sell the property to your own trust for substantially more than its valuation.. the trust will have a debt to you... then when its sold it sells for the previous valuation.. no CGT..

Be creative

And you wonder why our tax system needs overhauling/reforming.

It's exactly that mentality why the country is having the debate now.

Im looking for obvious holes... but is someone who chooses not to work avoiding tax? Is government waste the problem of 'the rich' 

Fair enough.  Misunderstood your original comment.  There are enough holes in this tax policy to run a fleet of trucks through.

The problem is this though - welfare reform/govt. spending and tax reform are seperate items.  They do need to be addressed in tandem though.  And this is where none of our political parties are up to the task.

Don't worry, Labour says it will set up an 'expert panel' to deal with those holes.

Good way of saying, we haven't quite figured out all the detail, but she'll be right mate

Once again, Labour wants to rob Peter to pay Tom, Dick & Harry.

Yes rc, Labour wants to to rob Peter to pay Paul.

Unbelievable this initial proposal does not intend to take into account inflation over the years and also not expenses which were needed to upgrade/maintain a property.

2 Samples from friends,  true life reports, recently:

A husband after being divorced provided his ex-wife with a unit for living.The unit was bought 21 years ago and had countless upgrades, the last one 4 years ago costing almost $ 90.000.

So if this would be sold now, would be an enormous  "capital gain", in fact todays value just represents the inflation and  excellent upgrade.

Next example:

A property bought 11 years ago for  $ 315.000 was sold just a fraction over $ 400.000, has been upgraded with new roof, paint, partly electrical rewiring, renewing sanitary installation over the years. The sale incurred expenses of $ 19.000 (agents fees+GST)) and approx. $ 3.500 advertising costs.  Also after the sale there will be due the accumulated depreciation to be paid back to Inland Revenue to the tune of several thousands.

How much "speculation profit" do you think was left?

Those people I cited in this examples are neither rich nor speculators,  they did put life savings into this properties,  but Labour intends to demand even more, playing the  old game of envy  between supposedly rich and poor. 

If politicians want to curb property speculation, simple rules like in many countries would do the trick:

CGT only due if property is sold before it was kept  for 5 or 7 years

Inflation adjusted

Improvements deducted

Family home excluded from tax

End of story.


On the other hand the tax is 15%, so half the highest rate, presumably so as to compensate for inflation and maintainance.....

I would [have] assume that the upgrade would be treated seperately...otherwise its a double cost/tax in makes no sense to upgrade in that situation....but do landlords ever upgrade properties? maintain them, sure, replace, sure, but substantially upgrade? I would have said not, in fact Ive never heard of one.


printer8 some banks have been writing off $60 million on one property deal.. thats a 9 million tax credit...  they believe only 18 million collected in first year... sure try a 300 million loss.. I think it will be a good time to bail on the properties that are overvalued and take credits from now till eternity...

Is that me or that picture in this article of three Labour seniors (Parker, Goff and Cunliffe), they looked very grim? 

Pics Ive seen suggests they look pretty happy....the polls will tell the story....I like the idea of a CGT, so Im all for it.


If i have a rental prop now (and if Labour gets in).   I would sell it to a look thru company to hedge my CGT in the future date.

At what nominal value? Surely, whatever you do after CGT Day, it's value will be determined, and taxed accordingly, because in a LTC it's not 'the family home'. The family home is the only sure way to avoid CGT?

I meant I'll sell it to a LTC before CGT becoming laws.  Say if I bought a rental years ago at 100K, current market value is 200K, I could in theory sell it to a LTC at 200K.  Two years from now if i sell it at 220K, I would only liable for CGT on 20K profit not 120K. 

Alternatively, I could move in for a set period and then sell it as family home (unless they imposed a qualifying 2 years "family home" period like Australia)

If you moved into the property it would automatically trigger a deemed sale at market value.

If you sell it to an LTC for the purpose of avoiding the CGT it is tax avoidance. 

"If you moved into the property it would automatically trigger a deemed sale at market value" how can it be if it's under your own names

"If you sell it to an LTC for the purpose of avoiding the CGT it is tax avoidance" Only if you have an intention to sell it

If you don't have an intention to sell it why move it to an LTC to avoid CGT?

Tax law distinguishes between your personal affairs and your business (rental property) affairs.  It doesn't care if it's under your own names, in this case at least.

but they have a V day, so if today its worth 200k and you sell it for 220k next year you still only pay 15% on the least that's how I read it?


What about CAPITAL LOSSES , where I sell my Coromandel bach ( bought in 2007) at a loss . I would happily sell it for its current market value if Phill Goff picks up the tab for the  loss in value . 

Well you dont pay any tax.....funny but no business is guaranteed a profit.....


This is desperation socialism...Labour are heading to be wiped out in November because they didn't clean out the rubbish after Clark and cullen left. In a few weeks once this rubbish is recognised for what it is, the polls will show Labour are dead and gone.

The thing Goofy and cunny have failed to realise is that even those who used to vote Labour, are themselves intent on some capital gains one way or other. They will abuse the Morgans of this world while making every effort to copy them.

Under Goofy's Tax, we will see an army of IRD Police...or as Gareth called them.."Death Squads" sneaking round the districts and using Google Earth to spy out the swimming pools because these will be judged to NOT be part of the family home. Then as the tax theft fails to get anywhere near the required total, the tax will be raised to 20% and apply on all vehicles.

Yes, thats why for every $1 they take in taxes $0.1, or worse nothing, is left to make use of.

You're beginning to sound pretty desperate too, Wolly.

No dont believe so (Labour wiped out), indeed if its a choice betwen selling the SOE's and CGT Im voting CGT, its leveling the playing field...all profit should be taxed...

Polls, lets sit and see Wolly, D Brash and his supporters recogned on a 10% voter share, where exactly has ACTs vote gone? diddly....


When will Labour learn? CGT on property did not prevent housing bubbles in UK, USA, AUS, Ireland .. the list goes on and on.

The more tax that goes to government, the more they spend it on useless stuff or by creating bigger government which needs more and more tax to feed itself.

Give us all a break, less tax, and user pays for things... then if we don't want to use them... we don't pay! But at least we have the choice.

I honestly think they don't pay politicians ENOUGH. If they did .. we'd get brighter people doing the job as it'd be a valid alternative to working the private sector.

Perhaps then we'd have a chance of getting some people with real talent like John Key who has actually proven himself in the real world unlike the others who are career politicians with no idea of reality.

When will the average person/voter learn?  Taxes aren't designed to prevent bubbles so continually comparing to these other countries is irrelevant.  Any reference to this tax addressing housing affordability is just plain dumb.

Yes, the government is irresponsible when it comes to spending our money but it's just as much the voters fault if they get sucked in by bribes.  Maybe we need brighter voters.

Unfortunately Mr Goff said on JC last night that it would address housing affordability and very proudly I might add..

Where did they day CGT did? look at the working group....the idea is a level tax playing field because then ppl invest to make a living and not invest to make a capital gain....if everyone's income is then taxed, tax can drop across the field and this is what labour is aiming to do. CGT doesnt stop a property boom, its aimed at two things, one a cooling effect on the boom, two disencourages ppl from loading up debt to dodge tax in any one year ( or decades) and cash out tax free at the end and retire. Every other country in the world seems to have  CGT, we dont and the result has been fuel to a dangerous bubble.

JK, JK is rich and most rich invest for capital gain to avoid any of course he doesnt want it, neither do his mates.  JK has proven himself nothing more than a financial bankster....his actions cost ppl, this isnt really a good role model...



Bugger - good point!

Juliar Blowhard tackled by a pensioner about taxing the big "polluders"

Another Labour debacle.

The top 5% are paying a a third of all taxes. Personally I refuse to pay more. I am more than paying my fair share. As a highly skilled and therefore paid person so I get benefits. I already pay more dollars than 95%.  I give enough and the government needs to use the dollars they get to help partner those less skilled to do better.

The message is get the skills and apply yourself you get rewarded & not hammered with even more taxes - this send the wrong message

At least I can afford an accountant.

I would get one if I thought for a minute that Labour had a chance.I would actually get one.

The top 5% are paying a a third of all taxes. Personally I refuse to pay more. I am more than paying my fair share. As a highly skilled and therefore paid person so I get benefits. I already pay more dollars than 95%.  I give enough and the government needs to use the dollars they get to help partner those less skilled to do better.

The message is get the skills and apply yourself you get rewarded & not hammered with even more taxes - this send the wrong message

At least I can afford an accountant.

I would get one if I thought for a minute that Labour had a chance.I would actually get one.

When they introduced the 39% tax rate last time I was a PAYE payer.  I decided the same as you, I wasn't going to pay a cent more tax. I already paid enough so I cut down my hours instead so I paid less than before. 

My little protest, but I found buying back my own hours was very cheap!  Once you take into account GST of 15% on any dollars you get to keep that is over 52% tax you'll pay - ie you only keep 48% of those extra dollars.  So even if there is no "loopholes" you can still refuse to pay extra, and have extra free time.  They aren't taxing that yet! 

Oh, and then I got a rental property, then another and now I'm retired and don't pay PAYE at all so that really worked for them.

Do we want our state owned assets sold to overseas investors who will end up owning even more of New Zealand . 


A CGT that in the long run helps pay off the deficit and drive investments into the productive sector.

Is that a difficult choice?

Willy its a misinformed choice.. dont believe everything you read or hear.. What planet do you live on that thinks a GCT will create the $ required to avoid PARTIAL sell downs..

Did you read only 18 million the first year tax take... WOW

J it's incrimentalism, supported by spin & lies, used as a weapon for a very long time against the unsuspecting. People don't even bother to understand they just regurgitate headlines & absorb the shite they are told.

Hey but its all conspiracies man.

The CGT shuts a door more than anything else...right now ppl are investing for capital gain to avoid tax, this stops it.  So CGT wont get a huge amount directly, what it will is stop the taking on of huge debt, stop speculation on the property bubble, which in turn cools the need for hot money and pushes ppl towards investment in producing a good....

The bright side for you is of courseis despite this its unlikely Labour will win this time....


Dont fool yourself FOO FOO , the amount that CGT raises wont come anywhere near eliminating the budget deficit.. 

CGT will simply financially destroy those Kiwi's who are able to provide the capital to keep the real economy going. 

Real cuts in spending for welfare , Working for families , student free loans and such nice to have's are the only way to get the deficit down. 

Martyb ... Just think it through . The Capital and savings in private hands are ultimatley invested more productively than  by a Government , which simply spreads it around in transfer payments to beneficiaries. The beneficiaries simply spend it on consumables . 

Once consumed , the Government needs more and more to keep up the transfer payments.

Capital gains taxes are a "resentment tax"  always introduced by leftwing governments  and are regressive , harming those wanting to get ahead in life . 

I will find ways to circumvent this tax to ensure I never have to pay it ..... ever 

Messy tho all this Tax  sounds  Labour may yet pull off a win in the GE -   Philgoff will do a deal with the slippery Greens , the Tangata Whenua and Dunni and hes in

Endless debate about how to divide up the cake instead of enlarging it  wont save our bacon -  if we dont get our debt under control before overseas lenders start putting NZ  under their microscope, shes all over Rover

Dunni is probably out....his majority is tiny....he's targeted...

Despite the whinners I think Labour has gone from no hope to maybe on this, and as much as saying no to SOE sales as anything.....ppl certinaly dont like the latter...

Slippery Green's? yeah right....

We cant enlarge the cake, and what the CGT aims to do here is make sure its a level playing field....Debt is mostly private, and that is what's killing us and CGT should help there as well....


Whatever your politics the devil is in the detail

The undoing of many a 'well' intentioned plan

I understand there will be no inflation indexation for CGT (Australia has inflation indexation)

  • 15% CGT on asset inflation? – not a healthy incentive for any government!

I understand it's to be CGT valuation at entry (when a new law comes into effect?)

  • lets consider shares or property that is 15-20% below it's peak 2006-2007 market price.  Assume you bought in 2006-2007.
  • Any property or shares currently valued below it's original purchase price will incur CGT on the gain from the value at the point CGT comes into law not when you purchased.
  • Unless that asset was wholly bought with CGT free a windfall the “under-water” amount will effectively be taxed again. 
  • Will this be an incentive to sell shares and property if Labour get to form a coalition Governement?

And re. removing GST from fresh fruit & veges

  • If GST applies to frozen fruit & vegetables who will police this to ensure defrosted product is not sold as fresh

Will the full detail emerge before an election? 

Removing  GST from fruit and vege won't decrease the price. As it is seasonal there is no "normal price" (look at tomatoes).  People will pay up to a certain amount for an item, the supermarket adjusts the price until the supply= demand.  When GST comes off the supermarket will pocket the difference.

Agree, there will be a huge exercise to determine what is fresh and what is not - frozen peas - will it be GST exempted????

Frozen sold as fresh, pretty obvious its not the same thing and why would most supermarkets want to be ahmmered for such a silly game? they wont be.

V day is based on a date in the future? so price at past peak doesnt matter, also I assume you can sell into a vehicle of some sort to fix the price.....


Asset sales : short term gain & a long term loss.

Foo Foo

You are assuming that foreign investors will automatically jump in and buy all NZ assets that are for sale.  There are plenty of Kiwi investors about.. and may be it's an opportunity to divest other than housing!

What action will National take to stop these local investors flipping on their shares at a higher price to foreign investors, which is exactly what happened when Contact Energy shares were sold?

Treasury has already said that having foreign investors in the mix is essential to getting the best price.....


No Labour theft tax on 'fresh fruit and vegetables" that Fresh fruit.........and all vegetables?

When does fresh fruit become not fresh fruit?...ditto vegetables?

What about Labour diehard supporters who are addicted to burgers, fish and chips and other garbage.....will they get personal gst refunds?

Will the Labour diehard supporters who own a boat have to pay a cgt when they sell the boat and what about the black market in vehicle sales.?

Why won't Labour remove gst from meat...people need to eat meat...?

Why won't they remove gst from milk and butter and cheese and yoghurt and bread and ...blah blah blah?

Labour supports GST on books and school stationery.  Bad, bad Labour.

and bottled water...bad bad Labour!

and council rates...bad bloody Labour!

and school fees, and bikes, and school uniforms, and the cost of attending iwi functions, and operations, and the dentist rorts, and the doctors bills..and medicine for really sick people like those with cancer, and oh feck it's endless.......

  "The family home will be exempt"....doh

What is a "family home" it's not a dumb question....if I own two palaces in parasite Drive and I want to flog one...what's to stop me moving the sprogs and dogs to the property I intend to long then before it is the family home? I sell it and no Labour theft tax to pay...and the sprogs and dogs move back into the other "familiy home"...and I own ten of these....

Labour supports marriage breakdowns.  Families split rather than having to pay theft tax on second home.  Bad, bad Labour.

 ",,,exempt, as will all inherited assets"...doh

Does this mean no labour theft tax if you sell an inherited asset...or no theft tax when you inherit...?


Well at least that is ok.  I can pass the rentals on to the kids when I die without them having to pay tax and they can be their family homes.  Does Labour not get it, that is passing on the wealth to the next generation.   Or is there some rule that it has to be somone else's offspring to count??

Well what the scared rabbits in government at moment are doing - borrowing like no tomorrow to support tax cuts isn't sustainable either.

They had the chance to sort out the tax system but didn't take it, now we'll be selling of assets that earn 15% pa, in a world where interest rates are near zero.
The stupidity of that is beyond words.

But... it's not like selling assets has ever gone wrong in the past!?!!

 "Labour would set up an "expert panel"...harrrrrrrrrrrhahahahaaaaaaaahahaha

You see I think Labour has a very cunning plan. With cheaper fruits and vegetables, people will eat more. That will mean more farts. And yes you've got it. A fart tax!

This is Labour's cunning plan to finally introduce a comprehensive fart tax on all mammalian species in NZ. And it's all been done via the back door.'ll be done via the back passage!

No worries if an expert panel is set up Wolly, because you will surely be on it.

That's ok by me muzza...I promise not to profit from any scams....

I reckon Labour's tax package is a good start, but doesn't go far enough. The CGT is so watered down and full of exemptions that I fear it will simply create lots of jobs for lawyers and accountants and not raise that much money. I would have much preferred a Land tax, which would have been much cleaner and more efficient and raised a lot more money.

The 39 cent tax rate opens up the gap with the family trust rate that property investors galloped through the last time Labour imposed the 39 cent rate. At least the NZ$150k threshold is better than the previous one. The NZ$5k tax free threshold seems like another way to give away money that will have to be borrowed.

I'm disappointed Labour has ignored the other side of the government's accounts: spending. It is leaving the real problems of Working for Families and Interest free student loans untouched. It means Labour's plans for reducing the budget deficit are no better than National's. Either way we're still borrowing much more than we need to.



In my view the ideal scenario would be a combination of some of National and Labour's policies.

Unfortunately political rhetoric reigns supreme so never the twain shall meet!

I agree Bernard that middle class welfare needs to be cut back (Labour will never do that!), plus a CGT / land tax and raising the top tax rate (there you go Steven I am not the extremist libertarian that you made me out to be!)

Unfortunately the government is borrowing far too much at about 300 million a week. Major cuts in government spending are required to get this spending under control. It is becoming increasingly apparent that neither of the major or many of the minor parties are willing to make the massive changes in governement spending that are required to bring the spending under control. The political consequences of doing so would be political suicide for any party that did so, due to the general population of NZ being so financially illiterate.

The proprosed current tinkering to the economy will do stuff all to fix the situation.

It is becoming increasingly clear that NZ's excessive spending will not be controlled until that control is forced upon this country ruthlessly by external sources, and the longer it is until this occurs the more dire the consequences will be. This is what will almost certainly occur and it will be very unpleasant.

Amen to that, ChrisM

Is it just possible that the spending policies have yet to be announced -- why would Labour put out its entire package at one time?

BH: you are so right. When Governments (political parties) "devise" a scheme and then set about defining well-meant exemptions the original "design" comes into existence with the flaws that brings it undone. It never works, because whatever the regulation, the smart-money will simply employ smarter and better lawyers and accountants to discover the loopholes and invent newer and better financial instruments to get around them.

Here is a fair dinkum true example that is worth telling.

Many years ago I worked for a Government Department responsible for administering a number of Legislative Acts. One experience involved the Customs Department who enforced "customs and import licensing" controls. (at that time) One banned item you couldn't get an import license for was beer, but an item you could import was "detergent". A very clever importer imported a shipload of foreign beer. He eventually got his import license granted by employing an eminent QC who argued that the definition of a detergent was anything that was a "solute" or "wetting agent". Now it so happens you can shave in beer because it's both a solute and a wetting agent. Result. License granted.

Bernard .. now all you need to do is publish a list of loopholes .. frighten the horses

The existing loopholes plus new ones under Labour.  

I predict this Labour theft tax fluff will last about two months, at which time the loopholes will look like Grand Canyons and it will be quietly forgotten...leaving Labour with the old favourite pork offerings for votes...benefit increases and new benefits.

can someone tell me what sort of capital gains are Labour basing their revenue calcs on? With limited increases in property prices in coming years there might me bugger all revenue from a cGT

A lot of if's, but:

If all property in NZ is currently worth 9 billion, and 15% is investment property, then current value of property to tax is 1.35 billion.

If Labour think they will extract 238 million by 2018/19, then I suspect they believe property has doubled in value from 2011/12 i.e. in about seven years, and if it has been bought and sold in that time.  (15% of 1.35 billion is 202.5 million)

They are also apparently not accounting for inflation - so if your house increases in value by 5% and inflation is 10% you've actually lost money, but will still be liable for CGT when you've made a capital loss - but that's fair because you're evil for owning property.

Dang...I knew I'd seen Parker Cunny and Goofy before...The Three Amigos.....harrrrrrhahahahaha channel 10 to see the idiots save the village from the bad nasty capitalists.....

Wolly - watch this. Enjoy:

Well done Labour, it's good to see more challenge to the status quo. Don't stop, keep at it

Cheers, Les.

Graded CGT

 A well presented introduction of CGT - thanks for the link Les.

I think a graded tax for all property owners, under a fair concept would be accepted/ supported by the majority of the NZpublic.

A big segment of our property industry, are created by speculators. The fact is prices go up, make housing unaffordable for Kiwis and send the wrong signals for investment opportunities.  

Pushing out speculators with a higher tax (30 - 40%) purchasing and selling property within 0 to 2 years would create an important advantage for our economy.

After 2 -10 years of owning a property taxes should come down considerably, every 2 years of owning property. After 10 years selling property, taxes should be minimal (3% - 10%).

Well heck Walter...Kaikoura should have a special grade considering the size of the bubble down your way....a penalty grading!

Sorry Gooffy Oops Sorry Goffy as I said would cast my Vote regarding your statement today...... AND DRUMROLL ta ta taa

After exstencive reading into your / partys idea/statement and todays BLOGS I'm >>>sooory you don't get my vote!


Well IT all sounds a bit MICKEY MOUSE 2ME.. Therefor YOU will LOSE the Election & Your POSITION bugger bad luck Watch the two senior mousey"s on either side of you in the photo I think they smell a RAT!



ps U should have ring fenced a simple CGT on property investors at 25% and been done with it simple really.

How about the "no intention" excuse .. Wolly gets his jeep out and rolls down into the Marlborough civic centre one saturday morning, gets on the turps, ties on a real bender, gets paralysed,  wakes up monday morning with a blinding hangover and contract for the purchase of a property in his hand which he has no knowledge of buying. Immediately goes to the real estate agent whose contract its on, and immediately sells it. For $100k more than he paid for it. Geeeeee mr IRD I had no intention of investing, and had no intention of making a profit. I just got drunk. Well sir the regs clearly state you had to have one or the other intention at the time of purchase. Guess that one slips through.

Go labour give those Nats a run for there money :)

A stamp duty on property transactions would have made so much more sense and be far less costly and complicated to administer.

Thank God Labour won't get in.

I'm not clever enuf to dodge taxes, so I pay a lot of them.  The tax I pay NZ inc every year pays about 6 dole bludgers for a year.  If I left NZ who would pick up the tab for my 6?

FYI: I gave up months ago arguing the advantages of stamp duty. You're right, but it just doesn't seem to gain any traction here for some unknown reason. Must be too hard to comprehend. And that includes our intrepid scribes. Everyone would rather talk about CGT.

In 2011 budget "dole bludgers" only cost $1.03B,  Accomodation assistance $1.2B, DPB $1.89B, invalids benefit $1.35B and sickness benefit $.78B.  All up those 5 are only 7.69% of government expenditure.  The biggest single chunk of your tax actually goes in superannuation (almost 12%).

I found this suprising as I'd also assumed that most of my tax went to support 'dole bludgers'

If you're supporting 6 dole bludgers you're also supporting about 9 old folks.   How about that? 

No surprise, it's one of the oldest missconceptions around that beneficiaries financially break the country. Very easy to create the groups via policy , then sacrifice those groups for use as political footballs for party gain , while turning the publics scorn in their direction at anytime you need a distraction
See if you can get figures on the total cost of running govt in Nz. Parliament on it's own is about 1bn, so imagine the cost of all the beauracrats in the departments including external consultants of all types, nicely available to see total cost. Instead of turning on your fellow pleb , yes a few cheat the system & many are career beneficiaries, but let's get an audit trail on the management layers , I would be willing to bet that it makes for a kick in the head.

Good on ya Bob...I knew I could count on you in me pension years...and don't you worry none cos I'm going to make sure your money goes on the right kinda stuff...booze and holidays in the camper to sunny spots where I can sink more tinnies...thankyou Bob.

Read all about it:

'Australia to Repeal CGT to Attract Disgruntled NZ Property Investors'

(I think?) 

"Mr Whitburn, who is the Auckland Property Investors Association president, said many of the clients of his real estate mentoring scheme might leave New Zealand if the tax came in. "

Plus, I don't quite get this from Andrew King:

"If a CGT is the right thing to do, it's the right thing to do for all assets. Politics shouldn't come into it. Private home buyers account for about 70 per cent of purchases so have a greater effect on the market than anyone else." 

Isn't a "greater effect on the market," the thing, or things that support the floor? In this case, tax-advantaged PI's competing with FHBs? [FHBs can't expense the mortgage, and certainly not to a point allowing -ve gearing, because we don't ring-fence, yet.]

It sounds to me like some would be more comfortable with a land-tax. Bernard, over to you on that one.

Cheers, Les.

Somewhere on the Campaign Trail

 First Home Buyer: Excuse me Mr Goff

 Mr Goff: Yes you, the good looking man, what’s your question?

 FHB: I don’t swing to the left Mr Goff

 MG: I didn’t think you did.. your just a very good looking man..

 FHB: Oh ok it’s just that most of your party do.. I digress.. My question Mr Goff is that if as      you stated last night on John Campbell that property will become more affordable.. doesn’t that mean property prices will come down over time.

 MG: Yes and you’ll have me to thank for that…(Looks at his reflection in the window of an adjacent window and puffs out his chest)

 FHB: Well I appreciate that but how do you expect to collect CGT on falling values…

 Crowd: oaaaahhhhh 

Capital Gains are a form of income, why cant we have a simple tax system that taxes the bottom line.  This policy is weak, and is full of loopholes.

There's an incredible number of brand new forum members, and they're all posting the same things. It would be interesting if Bernard was to compare their IP addresses.

You have to include shares to stop the tax dodge on cgt. Putting an investment house/farm into a Co structure with shares allows them to avoid cgt by simply transferring shares if selling assets.

Asset Sales: If they're sold you can't get them back

Willy you really have a bee in your bonnet about this.. but have you read the details or just the headlines before you formed your rock solid opinion…

PARTIAL PRIVITISATION is not the same as full asset sales… 51% ownership means control of the asset…  

Yes you can control the sale of the 49% to NZ investors only but why would you bother.. If control can’t be gained by an overseas investor then they have no reason to buy up the company.. 

PARTIAL PRIVITISATION is not the same as full asset sales… 51% ownership means control of the asset…

Are you actually stupid enough to genuinely believe what you wrote, or do you just hope that other people are?

Wow... raw nerve much... What's your agenda.. do you understand business at all or just like to name call..

Placemakers stores operate very successfully with 51% ownership by Fletchers who yes do have control...

What we don't understand is history. I came across a site I had lost years ago and has not been updated for about ten years now. It is rather scary seeing how much turned out to be correct about Nz & globally. The asset sales will be out of our control quicker than last time we went through this exercise

Sad really that you believe the claims of this government that it will retain 51% ownership when its track record is broken promises.

To be sung in tune,,,,"this is what they call the muppet shoooooow" They look like the two old men on the balcony.

at what point will the CGT actually be paid. Foreign owners of NZ property or NZ farms will just take their money back overseas when they sell up leaving the tax unpaid. 

Between Labour and National, not much of a choice. Which is the lesser evil?

Same result either way if people don't change the way of thinking. As a start I would write no confidence on the ballot, or look very closely at independants who mint be in your electorate. Whoever you do or don't vote for, do some homework into who they are & what they stand for & where they are from, professional etc I mean.

So, I ask the Wisdom of Crowds:

If the fambly home is in a trust, and the beneficiaries of that Trust get shall we say Shuffled, is this a Sale?

If Yes, then I foresee a luvverly Trade in becoming a Nold Fambly Friend who is Essential to the Continued Stability of said Trust.  Because, after all, Trusts can live Forever.

If No, please 'splain in short words.


Proof 2 New Zealand 'Herald', 27th July 1989 - "....easier investing rules bring warning on sovereignty." End quote.

In the book 'Final Notice', pages 43 and 44, it lists a number of New Zealand politicians who gladly and freely admitted membership of the group called PGA.

A politician called Rchard P.....e has his remarks written in Hansard (the New Zealand government records book).

Proof 3

Quote - "We will not be able to tackle these problems unless we are prepared to co-operate and give up some of our national sovereignty." End quote. Date of statement - 16th July 1981.

Now can you see why all was conducted initially in secrecy, then under various disguises. The people would go crazy if they found out.

where,s the link so this stuff can be read in context Lloydy?

Hi P , I've been posting exerts for a few days trying to keep them in context with articles & posts trying illustrate why many here are wasting time & effort debating symptoms, when the causes require a whole new strategy.
They come from two books mostly 1 Tragedy & Hope by Caroll Quigley , and Final Notice by Barry R Smith

I've a heap of links but keep them until I can try to tell a story. Also many here are am closed mind & don't want to hear it. A few do , which is all it takes.

I'll be posting more going forward

Think I feel a conspiracy theory coming

Yes muzza, no possible way any of it could ever happen.
Labels are for people who don't like to think, is that fair to say ?

Lloyd, I'll ask my Jewish friend for advise on that

Lloydy---you are promoting an agenda or idea--you need to substantiate  these posts other wise your credibility is open to question---the link you are quoting from is freely accessible therefor why your reluctance to post it?are there revelations by the author that could best be described as embarrassing or are you quoting selectively--publish and be damned

Sounds like you know something I don't then. Before you use such strong rhetoric perhaps you can post the link you refer as I do not have a link.

So far as agendas are concerned, I post entries on many different topics , the past few days have been the excerpts. It's only about history dude, it helps understanding of present & future. If you or anyone does not agree & better yet can disprove with replies then that's fine. They are not my books , they are not my words, it's food for thought , because as I have mentioned, it's not productive to talk about treating symptoms when the causes are ignored , or not at least considered.

Suspicious people tend to have agendas, so what's yours P diddy ?

Lloydy --there is a significant difference between suspicion  and paranoia--the latter affliction i,m sure you are more than familiar with----

re your elusive link that you are unable to source but are able to quote from i,ll put up an address for punters to avail themselves of and draw their own conclusions

WARNING mystery of inequity----by one    barry smith------scroll down to the bottom of the page + click index then illumimati---------------see wasn,t hard was it Lloydy

my agenda if i have one is to derail pinheads such as you self from hijacking legimate sites 

Your lack of respect, assumption & personal insults says much for you , nothing good IMO!

Like others , you make the error of judging people , and even worse , via a web site. You must have some powers boy , I tell ya. Can I grab the lotto digits including powerball , there's a good chap.

Where is the link, or did I miss something ? I use many different sites from as many different persuasions as I can read from , but the posts you felt obliged to insult me over , i have in digital form but not from any website. I posted more than once the book name the posts are coming from.

Are you the oracle of "legitimate site approval"

Jog on

Wow, Lloyd, you're for real! I thought you were doing a suberb satire of tin-foil hat wearing  raving looney conspiracy theorists.  Here comes the flying spagetti monster. is good fun too..... needs a few local references though to make it more compelling... Editor's agenda/bias not immediately stated.  One World Government seems to scare the bejesus out of them all though. :)

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