Key defiant over Hager book and defends both Ede and Collins; Labour calls for Key to dump Collins over claims in book; Labour struggles in poll

Key defiant over Hager book and defends both Ede and Collins; Labour calls for Key to dump Collins over claims in book; Labour struggles in poll

By Bernard Hickey

With just under five weeks to go until the September 20 election, here's my daily round-up of political news on Friday August 15, including calls for Justice and ACC Minister Judith Collins to be sacked after revelations in Nicky Hager's 'Dirty Politics' book about her close links to 'shock jock' blogger Cameron Slater.

Collins has denied allegations in the book she organised for a prisoner to be moved on Slater's behalf. She made the denial on NewstalkZB, saying it was "an utter lie" and "absolutely, completely false."

Prime Minister John Key said he would 'wait and see' about this allegation, although he said he accepted Collins' separate assurances that she had not leaked the details of ACC claimant Bronwyn Pullar to Slater.

Collins said in a TVNZ Breakfast interview on Friday the allegations from Hager were smears. She again rejected that she had told Slater about Pullar, even though Slater is quoted saying in an email that she had. Collins did not address the claim about moving a prisoner and was not asked.

Hager, meanwhile, told Radio New Zealand he may release some of the original email and social media messages to and from Cameron Slater that underpin the book.

Labour's Grant Robertson said Key should follow through on earlier comments that Collins was on her last chance.

"It is well past time for John Key to take some responsibility for the misuse of power and information by his Minister Judith Collins, and follow through on his last warning to her," Robertson said.

“Nicky Hager’s book includes new examples of the way in which Judith Collins has misused information that she only had access to because she is a Minister. New Zealanders have a right to expect better of the Ministers who act on their behalf," he said.

Collins was quoted in the book as telling Slater: "If you can't be loved, then best to be feared." She also told him to pay back "double" any injury suffered, to which he replied: "I learned the rule from you."

Key rejects allegations

Meanwhile, John Key yesteday simply rejected 'Dirty Politics' as a set of left wing conspiracy theories that were not backed up with evidence and he stood beside his former staffer Jason Ede, who now works at National's head office, and Collins, who is portrayed in the least flattering light in the book.

Here's Radio NZ audio of Key's full news conference in Dunedin.

Key rejected the book's allegation that Ede had hacked into Labour computers, saying the website was essentially open for all to see andCameron Slater's actions had nothing to do with the National Party. He said he would be comfortable with any inquiries and that he had accepted Judith Collins' assurances that she had not leaked the name of Bronwyn Pullar to Cameron Slater.

"Cameron Slater runs his own ship, his own website, and he's nothing to do with the National Party," Key said, adding he spoke to Slater once every two or three months and texted him very occasionally.

"He spends half his time attacking the National Party. You should see what he says about the National Party President and Steven Joyce, or what he says about me. He's a shock-jock kind of blog site," he said, adding he last contacted Slater three or four months ago.

Prisoner moved?

Key was least comfortable around the allegations in 'Dirty Politics' that Collins arranged to move a prisoner as a favour for Slater. He said he would get "some advice on that."

"Let's wait and see," he said when asked if Collins had abused her ministerial position.

"All I know is that Nicky Hager is a left wing conspiracy theorist and makes stuff up," he said, suggesting reporters talk to Helen Clark about her views on Hager's Corngate book.

Key denied that he had supported Slater when the blogger was criticised for comments about a West Coast man killed in a car crash.

Key told reporters after an event in Wellington on Friday that he welcomed Hager releasing documents. He said Hager's claims were disintegrating.

"He really is having a bit of a problem now because most of the assumptions and accusations he's made are dissolving before his eyes, and I think that's because he didn't do what a true journalist would do; he didn't go and check out the facts, he didn't get the other side of the story," Key said.

"He should knock his socks off and release anything he wants and if he continues to do that he'll continue to demonstrate to New Zealanders that he's politically motivated with a very Left-wing conspiracy agenda," Key said.

Elsewhere, Slater himself, who is in Korea, wrote on Whaleoil that he believed Kim Dotcom was responsible for hacking into his emails and handing them over Hager. He said he would lay a complaint with the Police. Dotcom denied this in a tweet threatening Slater with legal action.

No Hide blackmail

Meanwhile, Rodney Hide rejected suggestions raised in the book that he had been blackmailed by Slater and political operative Simon Lusk to step down over texts sent to a woman. He said in a Radio Live panel session the first he had heard of the texts or any suggestions of blackmail was after the release of the book.

In summary, there has yet to be a smoking gun linking Key personally to any of the tactics used by Ede and Slater in a way that would significantly damage him.

After 36 hours of intense chewing over the detail in the emails, the most vulnerable member of Key's cabinet is Judith Collins, who Key has previously said was on her last chance. Collins has again flatly rejected the claims over Pullar, but has not yet addressed the claim she arranged to move a prisoner while Minister of Corrections.

The chapter on Judith Collins is the ugliest for the Government and presents her in a less-than-statesmanlike manner. Any ambitions she has to become Prime Minister should now be seen as remote, at best.

Poll result

Fairfax's Ipsos poll published this morning showed support for Labour fell 2.4% to 22.4% in August from July, while National rose 0.3% to 55.1%. Green support fell 1.1% to 11.3% and New Zealand First rose 0.8% to 3.4%. The biggest mover was Conservative, which rose to 3.4% from 1.3%. Internet Mana was at 2.1%, up from 1.2%.

The telephone poll of 1,007 people was taken from August 9-13 and has a margin of error of 3.1%. 20.2% of those surveyed were either undecided or would not express a party preference.

Meanwhile, Winston Peters shoved aside a protester during a campaign event in Garden Place in Hamilton. "They've come to listen to me, not you," Peters said before pushing the man, who then shouted 'Sieg Heil' and ran off, the NZ Herald reported .

Cunliffe downplayed the results of the poll when talking to reporters on the campaign trail, saying the Hager book's revelations would shift hundreds of thousands of votes.

"It's the sort of thing that you don't even want to talk about because it is just so disgusting," he said.

(Updated with Nicky Hager saying he may release some of the documents backing up the book and Judith Collins rejecting the allegation she arranged for a prisoner to be moved on Slater's behalf, also Key's latest comments on the book on Friday, Cunliffe's comments)

I'll update this regularly through the day.

See all my previous election diaries here.

See the index for Interest.co.nz's special election policy comparison pages here.

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment.

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.

100 Comments

Whitcoulls Albany still have copies for sale , but dont waste your  money paying for such claptrap.
 Hager's work is full of heresay and gossip and is not substantiatted with any supporting documents .
If anything it should be titled:-
 
 "NZ'S  Dirtiest Election Campaign ever " 
My Contribution based on heresay , conjecture and unsubstantiated evidence
 by Nicky Hager
 
Hagers relevations  will be to Nationals adavantage when he is shown to be the liar that he is.
And , Mr Hager on record in a defamation case in Wellington  last year , told the court that he would never publish heresay iwthout veryifying the facts from the accused
" there are issues of logic in investigative journalism............I wouldhave gone to the person  concerned with the allegations ............." That was on 1 August 2013 . So why was this not done in this case ?
Simply because this is an attempt to whitewash John Key , who is the most honest , open , trusting , trustworthy,  sincere , competent and likeable PM we have ever had

Wow Boatman, you really are working overtime!  Do you get paid directly by Crosby Textor for the time you spend trolling?
 
You're absolutely joking, this is affecting National BIG TIME - they really are in trouble!  And as for John Key being "the most honest , open , trusting , trustworthy,  sincere , competent and likeable PM we have ever had"...
 
Well, I look forward to your rebuttal of the following:
 
The big list of John Key's lies
1 John Key claimed that he didn't know about the Exclusive Brethren tactics. False.
2 John Key claimed that he didn't have Tranz Rail Shares. False.

3 John Key claimed that he didn't own a vineyard. False

4 John Key claimed that he voted to keep the drinking age at 20. False.

5 John Key claimed that he didn't know about the renewal of the BMW contract in 2011. False.
6 John Key claimed the wage gap between New Zealand and Australia had closed under the National government. False.
7 John Key claimed that his office had no involvement with the SkyCity deal. False.
8 John Key claimed that the Sky City deal will provide 1000 construction jobs and 800 casino jobs. False.
9 John Key claimed that all five bidders for the convention centre were treated equally. False.
10 John Key claimed that Solid Energy asked the government for a $1 billion capital investment. False.
11 John Key claimed that the 2011 Budget would create in the order of 170,000 jobs. False.
12 John Key claimed that NZ SAS soldiers were not involved in the Kabul Hotel gunfight. False.
13 John Key claimed that Iain Rennie recommended Ian Fletcher for the GCSB job. False.
14 John Key claimed that he hadn't seen Ian Fletcher in a long time. False.
15 John Key claimed that it was always the intent of the GCSB Act to be able to spy on New Zealanders. False. - Not sure what this one means.
16 John Key claimed that the illegal spying on Kim Dotcom was an isolated incident. False.
17 John Key claimed that the bulk of New Zealanders earn between $45,000 and $75,000 a year. False.

  • According to Statistics New Zealand's New Zealand Income Survey results for the June 2010 the median income (the amount which half the people in the country earn below) was $529 per week, which equates to $27508 per year.

18 John Key claimed that he is honest and upfront. False - see above.
19 Video of John Key on the campaign trail in 2008 ruling out a rise in GST if he won the election. False
20 On privatising assets, "I don't believe that's gonna turn the New Zealand economy around. False /u/John_Banks
21 update 10/07/2014, "National promised in its 2011 election manifesto all state houses which could be practically insulated would be." False
'In answer to written questions this week, Housing Minister Nick Smith said of the 30 percent of the 68,000 houses under Housing New Zealand's management had not been insulated."
22 More GCSB - at least Key's pal is in charge now...
"The spymaster who initially cleared the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) of illegally snooping on Kim Dotcom was also directly involved in seeking the suppression order signed by Bill English as Acting Prime Minister."
The Herald has learned former chief legal adviser Hugh Wolfensohn was involved in arranging the once-in-a-decade certificate which sought to bury the scandal.
The Prime Minister confirmed yesterday for the first time it was Mr Wolfensohn's advice that quelled GCSB and police fears they had illegally spied on Mr Dotcom and his co-accused Bram van der Kolk.
He told Parliament: "The best of the legal advice presented by Hugh Wolfensohn was that it was legal. As we now know, GCSB and Mr Wolfensohn were wrong.*
Mr Wolfensohn no longer works at the bureau after being placed on "gardening leave". A spokesman for the GCSB said of Mr Wolfensohn's advice: "With hindsight, we know it wasn't right."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10872586
23 John Key: 'I've never lied about Kim Dotcom', 21/11/2012 False - from 5 Oct 2012 and One video exposes Key, GCSB’s & Banks’ Dotcom lies
24 "Gerry Brownlee breaches airport security rules". Every other National MP that has broken much less serious rules (and got caught) has been removed from their position. Hypocrisy

  • Using the exit door jokes, optional.

25 Genesis energy asset sales will be predominantly 'mum and dad' buyers. False.
"A controversial American couple are the biggest investors in recently floated Genesis Energy - sparking angry claims the Government has been caught out "screwing the scrum" against mum and dad Kiwi buyers."
26 "The good news was I was having dinner with Ngāti Porou, as opposed to their neighbouring Iwi ,which was Tuhoi, in which case I would have been dinner" (audio)

Wow, you completely destroyed Boatman's feeble attempt at spin!! Personally, I had forgotten - much like Key does - just  how many lies he's told the public.

That's the trouble with telling lies - after a while you can't remember which lie you told, and when, and who you told it to

people love being lied to

Only if they are asking if their behinds look big in this or if certain parts of their anatomies are of adequate proportions

Each of the 25 points you have rasied here as being so called examples of lies or "false",  are debatable , and your arguments are a distortion of the truth .
There are often  2 versions of the same story  , and regrettably you always look at the radical extreme leftwing view .
Your links are almost all to known leftwing journalists with a labour or Green agenda
For example how do you know what John Key knew or did not know about the Bretheren?
 Number 2 , John Key never denied being a Tranzrail shareholder while in opposition , his shareholding was decalred in the members pecunary interests in Parliament  .
He could not remember how many shares he held . I could not tell you how many shares I hold on the NZX at any point in the past , or even right now for example . And what does it matter ?
Number 3 , He does not own a vineyard , I recall reading in the NBR than his blind trust does .
No 4 I dont know about the voting for the drinking age , but who cares ?
.....The BMW contract was signed by the Labour Government , and thats why Labour shut up in Parlaiment about it , it was a labiur Cock -up
 
......The wage gap between us has closed ..... significantrly so, albeit helped by the strong Kiwi $ 
........The SKY CITY deal was and is good for us , Auckland needs a convention centre
.........no person has ever denied Solid Energy did try to Raise $1,0 billion , and tried wherever they could , including the major shareholder , being the governmenrt (aka  taxpayer)  
.......The economy has created nearly 200,000 jobs and unemployment is doown to 5%
.........Did we send the  NZ SAS to play tiddywinks with some bunch of goat-herders in Kabul  ?
We maintain an SAS squadron for these very reasons , not just to play volleyaball on Wednesday afternoons
The  PMs dont usually discuss SAS operations, because they are often kept informed on a need to know basis .
We all knew the SAS were there ,  did a Kiwi not get a VC for his actions in Afghanistan ?
And so it goes on and on ................
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Wow dude, do you have a life?? Maybe you really are paid to write this nonsense!
 
Left wing?? Ha! The world's black and white to you isn't it!  Nah man, I'm not "left wing" though it's a popular term at the moment huh? Nat supporters such as yourself are throwing it around willy nilly.  I'm definitely not right wing, but there's room in the middle there Mr Man!  One thing is for sure, we defintely do have a right wing government with deregulated markets that have gone beyond capitalism - monopolies and duopolies anyone?  Basically I think we've gone too far mate, and most importantly, I think John Key and his band of merry men (including Judith Collins) are basically a bunch of lying crooks.   And Nicky Hagar just proved it!
 
I put that list up because you wrote the most ridiculous statement about John Key being the most honest PM we've ever had!  That's an absolute joke and I just had to PROVE YOU WRONG.  Either you're deluded or you're lying too and you're just spouting nonsense to try and influence people, but guess what - not working!  Nobody liked your comment but there's plenty of people supporting mine so obviously it resonates.  Face it buddy, the tide is turning, so perhaps downsize your property portfolio if your worried about a capital gains tax, or if you're just a troll then jog on because we're here for ACTUAL debate.  
 
And as for your rebuttal, you basically used all that time to JUSTIFY HIS LIES - not to actually challenge them.  Therefore you basically admitted that he does lie and therefore you argued against your orginal claim that he's the most honest PM we've ever had.  Thanks for helping me argue against you!
 
BANG BANG Boatman!  Shot you down - AGAIN!!!

Nah , not shot down at all , still flying mate .
Basically the way I see it is for our own future we need to keep those reds and greens as far way from the levers of power as we can , and permanently if possible .
And , lets get real here . the so called support you have recieved is hardly overwhelming , and the usual leftwing  communisitc leaning Marxist/ Leninist  suspects are your only supporters on this forum .
They're noisy alright , but its all noise and no substance with the supporters getting despreate screaming abuse and burning effigies............... shows signs of desperation .
Have you noticed that John Key has not stooped to the low underhanded  tactics of the leftwing in this election campaign ?
He has kept his campaign open , honest and clean
And getting personal wont win you any friends either  , FYI I dont own any houses other than the one I live in  , so Capital Gains tax will not affect me at all , but it will not bring houses prices down , that I know for a fact .
Its a resentment tax against those who have saved and forgone consumption to invest in houses for rent,  that the Government could not provide .

  • In summary , the truth remains , John Key is the best PM we have EVER had .
  • He steered us through the GFC , and we are booming
  • He has been for honest transparent governance ( lease corrupt government on earth)
  • We are growing as an economy
  • Unemployment is way down at 5%
  • Key is far more honest and sincere  then Helen the Hun ever was
  • We will be back in surplus by 2015

 
Labourredgreeninterentmanafirst , are a discombobulated , rudderless , leadersless ragtag bunch of losers  ,who cant agree on anything ( even their own leaders)  and we need to ensure they stay out of power  way by voting National
 
 
 
 

Boatman, your multiple posts with same advice about not wasting money on this book could be taken a number of ways.  You are either concerned about our financial welfare, or you are worried what may be in it.
 I'm worried about your motives - are you a paid blogger with links to the Nat party perhaps?  Are you worried that floating voters just may be getting a little uneasy?  Are you not open to even considering that  there may be some issues - or are just just a blind follower?
 
 

I've wondered that about Boatman - how are we able to check? 
 
I'm here for the content as I have my own business and value the financial information Interest.co.nz provides, but when ever Boatman speaks I find myself compelled to shoot him down!

Boatman is incapable of self-reflection

Well you've gotta understand rastus, for many of us the hard decision is whether to vote for either someone who arguably may have told a few porkies, or a bunch of incompetents ....actually not all that hard I suppose ?

One and the same, aren't they? Telling lies AND incompetent...

..thus in the strict sense then ruling out all politicians in all  countries - we should govern ourselves, but then we elected there's  people, wo we're equally incompetent ? Nothing's easy is it?

and your proof one bunch (I assume Labour?) are incompetant?
Now maybe Im splitting hairs but frankly I dont consider National competant either, so I guess Ill take the side that appears to be doing the least lying bunch of exploiters.
Personally Im stuck between a rock and a hard place for my vote, it wont be either of the 2 large parties.
regards
 

Grant A: you are confusing Competence with Power 

Since 2009, the single biggest challenge this country has faced is the Christchurch Recovery. It is the second largest city in the land. It deserved 100% attention of our leader(s), almost to the exclusion of anything else.
 
In spite of a sustained period of plenty the place is a forgotten place and the people who had the power to accomplish a recovery have failed and lied and fed the peasants with platitudes
 
I have great difficulty calling that competence. When called upon they went MIA. Someone who goes missing by their own action is called a deserter, which in other countries would be treasonous, failing to do their duty

Thank you Grant A , at good to see one person with some sense among this crazy mob of effigy buring shouting screaming lunatics .
Can you imagine a government run by that ragtag bunch of losers on the left .
We need to keep our heads , and not lower ourselves to this mob mentality
 

Rastus , none of the above , I am simply able to see an attempt at a shake-down of someoe when I see it  .
Hagers attempt to skewer John Key is so blatant , the motives as so evident , and its surprising everyone is so taken in by this BS
John Key is not perfect , but the alternatives are just too ghastly to contemplate

It could be said that the fact you are considering Key makes you just as ghastly.

Thanks for the heads up Boatman. I am off to Albany mall now to get some toilet paper for work, it will go down as recycled paper.

Pleasure my friend , I went there fgor a free read , and its toilet paper all right

FYI updated with Nicky Hager saying he may release some of the documents backing up the book and Judith Collins rejecting the allegation she arranged for a prisoner to be moved on Slater's behalf.
cheers
Bernard

Good , we look forward to seeing the release of these e-mails , as we have not seen any concrete evidence of what the book alleges

For all the National mouthpieces logging on, don't worry we know the rules and mantra. Let us that haven't made our minds up yet just have a debate about the book and it's possible implications.
 
It has been quite clear there are a few 'key' elements to the national strategy at the moment that come out in many articles and blogs...
1. Blame the lefty leftists. The more lefty words the better.
2. The book is irrelevent as the author stole the information so we better not read it.
3. If it seems that people do hae a braincell and are looking into for themselves after all, just say that all parties do it and we should not worry.
4. If all else fails, blame Dotcom and bury your head in the sand.
 
Lefty, lefty and denial, denial.
IOff back to my sarcasm bed.
 
 

As soon as someone mentions 'lefties' or 'communists' as part of their argument you can pretty much guarantee you're debating with an idiot.

Boatman: "...John Key , who is the most honest , open , trusting , trustworthy,  sincere , competent and likeable PM we have ever had."
 
Boatman, you need a prescription update for your rose coloured spectacles.  Some view the smiling assassin as someone trying to be the best he can be: assassinating a whole democratic country.

He's confused it isnt rose, its more brown, maybe stale blood, or maybe not.....
regards

What bolloclks , when has Key  ever tried to undermine any of our democratic institutions?
When I last checked,

  • The Judiciary ( Crown)  was still  independent ,
  • The Reserve Bank was still independent ( Labour wan to change that )
  • We still have press freedom
  • The electroal commission is independent
  • We ranked as the least corrupt country on earth,
  • Government was finally getting out of business ( where it does not belong)  

 

Judiciary have spoken out against TPPA and some other government actions...and been ignored.  (Generally they just say "it's the law, we're here to see it enforced, not to question or judge it. that's Parliment/Governments job")

RBNZ are independent...as long as they follow the rules government sets for them.  Anyone who claims this is "independence" is obviously either a fool or trying to pull some sort of con.  Either way it is a sign they should not be listened to!

Press freedom?   Try calling someone a criminal in written media.  The press is limited to what it is allowed to print, while this is a large range, some stories are held, and others considerd "unfriendly" to people whom we wish to work with.  Since there is a shrinking pool of large media, the freedom is shrinking with it.

Ranked as least corrupt?  We've been ranked as the most naive, and with the easiest abused laundering systems, and the only ones silly enough to sell core assets to offshore interests over the interests of our own citizens.

Government is getting out of infrastructure, which is seriously concerning.  (such movements didn't work so well for privatisation of council construction work.    It's a bit like the old Asian trick... we work cheap, we give you great price...oh we have market dominance? you want quality products?  well yes, we make them but they will cost much much more... (and well where do you think you'll get your tools/machines from...:)

Re the headline about Collins going - where would she go?
The only role I could see her occupying is as a real estate agent - would they have her? Probably.

Neither Slater or Hagar generate any interest from me.
If we have a plot about people with a agenda feeding information to a writer who publishes it.  That's a description of Hager, just as much as it is of Slater.
Hard to tell em apart frankly.

Slater is the one who said of a person who died in a car accident that he was a feral and the world was a better place with him dead (or something along those lines). Hager isn't

 
Interesting. On 8th August I suggested we would see the following:
 
"Irrespective, one suspects the tide of events will steadily ebb in favour of New Zealand conservatism going forward with the left ever more aggressive and nasty..."
 
It is not surprising to see the Conservative Party advance in the polls - nor is it surprising to see the pious nastiness of the left. As with Weimar Germany those on the "so-called" left and those on the "so-called" right essentially believe in the same things - the omnipotent state and the deployment of its power to exact tribute. That is why they fight so bitterly - because they are competing suppliers of the same ideological garbage that elevates government to the status of deity. They are competing suppliers of the same ideological garbage that believes in the extinguishing of sovereign nation. They are competing suppliers of the same ideological garbage that has delivered Iraq and elsewhere to misery. The local 'wild card' in all this are the conservatives because they might just act as a bulwark against further statism (and might even begin the reversing of the process) if they are elected to parliament. 
 
There is a global "bull market" in government around the world - taking, and taking, and taking. Just look at the EU. It makes no difference which "establishment" entity you vote for - left or right - the government index just keeps on making new highs. It’s merely a matter of detail and emphasis but the core ideology – that man exists to serve the state – is inviolate. The left is more self-righteous and the right more smug – big deal. The bitter fight between the political establishment’s "players" is all about who gets the best spoils from the monopoly power that being in government infers. How many politicians and bureaucrats could command equivalent salaries and perks if they had to fling themselves upon the mercy of the marketplace? How many would command even a cursory glance from the media if they were not part of the establishment circus? 

So true.
This isnt a fight between left and right, the gap in policy between National and Labour isnt very wide.
This is a fight for 'Power'.
 

Yes, the Totalitarian attitude of NZ Government and many New Zealanders does worry me.  I see such Totalitarian philosophy as being the logical result of State dependence and Socialist expectations - that the government is here to provide and work for you (as opposed to setting and maintaining an independent playing field)

Oh dear, so one blip in the polls and you consider yourself the next oracle it seems.
To start with its just one poll, lets see
a) a sustained trend
b) Poll of polls and ipredict showing a) then there might be a chance of a seat being given away to crazy colin in 2017.
c) National's % is quite good, hence some ppl who may well have been thinking they'd like to vote conservative together with the fundie crazies bump the %s up aka ACT.
d) Brash got badly burned after talking the the open bretheren (and lets not forget the money they had in their pockets), that should be telling you and JK that going near the fundies is likely to cost votes.
e) The global bull market in Govn is a result of the bull run of the free market screwing up...and its yet to blow.  Personally I think when this mess really starts to unfold we'll see a learch to the left and not the right. Throw in peak oil and its sure going to be an interesting decade, worst in human history for 200 years I suspect.
"How many politicians and bureaucrats could command equivalent salaries"
I call them plus a lot of others, carrot pullers....highly skilled in areas that wont be needed in the future, hence un-skilled.
 
 
 
 
 

Updated with fresh comments from Key and Cunliffe.
cheers
Bernard

It's Key that needs to go.
He's confirmed that he did speak to Cameron Slater about that grieving mother on the West Coast;
Key said he had told Slater he "recognised the woman".
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10386840/Hagers-claims-dissolvi...
And then Cameron Slater implies to someone else that the Prime Minister is "all good" with that "feral" blog post.
A Prime Minister should not be associating in any way with this guy - a case of with friends like him - who needs enemies.
 
 

Nonsense Kate ............. I look at this mob of yelling screaming effigiy burning lunatics  , and I know thats what we dont want or need here in New Zealand .
We dont want mobs running the country
John Key has been a pillar of sense , levelheadedness and rationality in this campaign , and we owe it to him to ensure he gets re-elected .

You only have to log onto Whaleoil and browse for five minutes to realise that the real screaming lunatic is Cameron Slater. Key is guilty of guilt by association. I cannot - simply cannot believe that all National Party executive and caucus support this kind of gutter politics. Those in the Party with intergrity and morals need to do something to stop the embarrassment.
Surely they cannot all be "okay" with this?
 
 

Its where the sociopaths go, and National is happy to use them.
 I've commented on the site a few times and its been an unpleasant experience.  
 

  • Since sociopaths have no empathy for others, making use of normal people feels just fine to them. Likewise, they feel no remorse.
  • Empathy, as viewed by the sociopath, is a weakness, and he considers himself superior, because he isn’t burdened by it.
  • Because they lack an internal feedback system, sociopaths are excellent liars. For example, they can often pass lie detector tests, since those tests register the effects of our internal feedback system, which they don’t have.
  • A sociopath is likely to maintain a group of people who believe whole-heartedly that he is a good, kind, honest person. He’ll work in calculated ways to create and maintain that opinion in them.

Here is what Hervey Cleckley wrote about sociopaths in his classic text on the subject, The Mask of Sanity:
Beauty and ugliness, except in a very superficial sense; goodness, evil, love, horror and humor have no actual meaning, no power to move him.
Now we come to the question of why sociopaths are this way, and we do have some answers.
 
Recent brain scans indicate that sociopaths have unusually small amygdalae (the part of the brain associated with emotional reactions, decisionmaking, and memory processing). A region of the brain’s frontal cortex, called the orbitofrontal cortex, seems problematic as well. This region, which communicates with the amygdala, is also involved with decision making.
So, the cause of sociopathy is almost certainly organic. Someday it should be curable with genetic engineering, but for now, there is no cure at all. That means that you have zero chance of talking a sociopath into behaving well.
Trying to repair a sociopath tells him that you’re a ripe sucker, and nothing more. He’ll play along, tell you what you want to hear, fake the emotions he thinks you’ll respond to, and bleed you dry, emotionally and physically. And he’ll never feel a moment’s remorse as you finally contemplate suicide.
Yes, I know this is dark stuff, but it’s better to be forewarned than to learn through harsh experience.
 
http://www.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Sociopath

 

Indeed - it's quite disturbing as I understand the blog site gets a great deal of hits, I just hope alot of those aren't frequent readers - otherwise we live in a very twisted, angry society.
If you're out of country, Andrew - Hager's book is now available on Kindle;
http://www.amazon.com/Dirty-Politics-poisoning-political-environment-ebo...

Thanks Kate, I'll have a think about it.  

Point is - you're familiar with the 'dark side' :-) so it's unlikely to shock you. Campbell Live did some interesting interviews in the streets on last nights show - they had taken extracts from the book and pinned them on a board that folks could read. Really interesting the many and varied views. 

See also Altemeyer's The Authoritarians.  People who divide the world into rigid 'them and us' categories, brimming over with hostility towards 'them', will accept anything, no matter how flimsily-supported if it comes from their chosen authorities, while dismissing and ignoring all evidence to the contrary, and absolutely love bullies, if they target 'them'.

Will do, thanks.

Available as free pdf from his university site.

I don't like, trust or want Key.  He's not here for NZ, so he needs to go.  
But you're right that we don't want people who think mob action is appropriate.  I can only guess that they're deliberately tossing the election... such stupid tactics failed so spectacularily last election, what kind of moron would try to repeat it....let alone try to win on that basis?!

eg "Vote for me I managed to smear the other guy"   yeah that really says "I can run the country well"

Boatman:" when has Key  ever tried to undermine any of our democratic institutions?"
 
Many of the laws passed under urgency, by far the worst being the GCSB Act.

Depends upon what you think the role of Govt is. I think its to govern and as far as I'm concerned whether its a National or Labour Govt they can change all the laws they want, the kicker is, if the majority of public don't like it, they get their arses handled to them at the end of their term. Thats probably coming from a  first past the post mentality admitedly, but I'd far soon give whoever is in power the ability to make the changes they want with no excuses, and let the following election result be the public's endorsement or otherwise of what they've done. If its completely outrageous then there's major rioting in the streets well before then, something to date even asset sales could hardly awaken.  

Coupla pre-requisites for that to work GrantA
 
Openness, transparency, knowledge.
 
Without those, you will never know if you are making the right decision
 
Right about now you might guess you are being kept in the dark about many things

two other guys - hard to argue against that, clearly in a ideal world we would want and expect that. But based upon world surveys of such attributes NZ rates highly compared to others irrespective of whichever party is in power, so that's a relative comfort to my mind even although we're clearly not perfect, and never have been. I'm not sure we can ever have a total transperancy Govt though, but I guess that depends upon whether you think the public can ever have the full facts and understanding of a situation to make the right decision e.g. a referendum style of Govt.
Its certainly controversial when comparing it with Govt, but a company doesnt have  its shareholders running the day to day operations, they hire the best talent who are better equipped to do - however the counter balance to that is if managent don't get the results the shareholdes get the oportunity to sack the board and ultimately the management e.g. a general election. Probably going a bit off topic but  guess I tend to be a bit more of a pragmatists than an idealist, even although the idealists always then accuse you of lack of ambition in that regard.

Its interesting that the same numpties on here railing against Key,s dishonesty and changes to the GCSB bill are the same noddy,s that believe every thing in a book by a left wing conspiracy theorist,using hacked private emails ,basing his book on one source with no fact checking,and the "evidence " being highly censored by the hacker.No mention of David Cunliff's lawyer (and secret trust developer) blogging on "The Standard".
Slater Vs Hager..I know who my money is on....

Point is though, the "one source" is Slater himself (and those he corresponds with). None of the folks whose emails are quoted in the book are denying they wrote these things. The question is then what the fuller implications of their correspondences are. Even if you take the supposition or conclusion drawing out of it - and just read the email text alone - the words of many quoted are unmistakably disgusting, cynical, manipulative, bully boy/girl type stuff.
 
How Judith Collins can even show her face in public is beyond me. She's one seriously imbalanced individual - a Minister of Justice/Police/Corrections? - the ultimate in irony.
 
      

What's the relevance of Slater's character Kate ?  Who cares if he's purposedly a bully, manipulative, crass etc - what relevance has that got to Key for instance ? I don't judge Cunliffe for instance on the character of Haiger or any left wing blogger ? Its all an irrelevant sideshow which just demonstrates everything that we've always known for ages, political parties leak information to the media, and alot of that media aren't necessairily nice - wish I could make the same few bob from writing a book that tells everyone exactly what they already know.

As my mother used to say, you are judged by the company you keep - or, birds of a feather flock together.

Well Kate, if that's the approach to take, and bearing in mind the similar viciousness at times of the left wing bloggers (reportedly written in many cases straight out of Labour's offices), I  would otherwise have to take back my comment about Cunliffe

Kate your mother is a smart lady.Just remember to heed this advice when you watch the news tonight and apply it to all those who prositituted themselves at the Coatsville Mansion..

Hmm, setting yourself up to be sued?
regards

My money would be on Hager given his journalist track record. Hasn't been wrong yet and contrary to your claims of 'leftie' he previously put the Clark government in it's place so I think that's being disingenous (see my comment about idiots). How much integrity does Slater have - zip.

Hager is way left of Clark.
as for Cam Slater you may want to tune into Whale Oil 2.30 pm today.....

Yet he damaged Labour in 2002.  Oh and got some evidence on hagger's politics?
 
regards

Well he's utterly clueless and a had a forensic expert, oh LOL whos also clueless going by what he has written,
#3 "I don’t know if you know what a ‘Dynamic’ or ‘Static’ IP address is.  Today, most IP addresses that are allocated to a computer user, by the ISP, is Dynamic.  That is it never changes and will always be the same."
NB he cant even get basic terms right like, Static never changes, its static.  Dynamic can change, its dynamic, hence its called dynamic. If its ADSL yes it can stay as the same IP for a long time.
#4 Pretty easy to change the IP and the MAC.  Anything from around $10 to pop in an old nic and then dispose of it to trivial via telling the OS what MAC to export to virtualisation.
Chnaging a MAC address,
eg,
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Changing_Your_MAC_Address/Linux
"Under GNU/Linux, the MAC address of a network interface card (NIC) can be changed by following the procedures below.
NOTE: MAC addresses used within this article are provided for example only. Substitute according to your requirements.
NOTE: Commands below MUST be executed with root privileges (e.g. prepended with "sudo "), in order for things to work!
Execute "ifconfig eth0" to confirm."
Now I have never done it this way....
or this,
http://xmodulo.com/2014/02/spoof-mac-address-network-interface-linux.html
Or various other methods.
Walk into a store and buy a wifi USB dongle, lots of free wifi about, bin it afterwards.
regards
 
 

Can I take it your money is on the guy who said that a guy dying in a car accident was a feral and the world was better off without him, then can I. Says a lot

secret TPPA talks

trust me you want the GCSB act, and really what’s so private about your communications that the government won’t read anyway...? the point is if we dont pull our weight and listen in on the 'crazies' in the world we are going to have something literary blow up somewhere because we were not paying attention...you must remember most people dont get social welfare, free education and a nice Christmas in the park, instead they get a load of nonsense fed to them about how bad the west is and take matters into their own hands...we have already had one bomb go off in our country...JK is the only sensible person to lead NZ

Why would I trust you or Key for that matter? When organisations such as the GCSB exist in a vacum, then my default position is not trust, its suspicion. Power universially corrupts. Which is why agencies of the state need to be publically accountable and transparent.
 
Do you trust me with your bank account details, pin and atm card? Plenty of crazies make bad financial decisions. Maybe you are one of them. Surely the only sensible person to have your details is me?

Whats so private is that they are MY private communications.

While having them monitored isn't a big deal...until the government or anyone who they share the information with, has a difference of opinion with me.  I might be doing subersive things like considering inter-racial relationships, or same-sex intercourse of marriages, or even arranging legimate financial deals.

The really big problem is similar the unaccountability of government, and future government.  They might one declare that they would never, no way, uinder no circumstances, EVER monitor NZ citizens and that every precaustion and safe guard will be employed to ensure that that line is never crossed (...as they did promise when the GCSB was created).... and that might hold true...right up until the point they want to do it.   Then chances are you won't even find out they're breaking the law and their fundamental code of conduct until there's an almighty screw-up against someone with media and money to make a public scene.
 And what will they do if they break those laws?  ...they'll change the laws to suit themselves...  Even the US administration has written themselves retro-active immunity clauses for the international crimes committed under their direction at G.Bay.

And that bomb that went off, was from the French...and not just some dissident West-hating group but from official French intelligence agents.  And just what happened to the 25-to-life sentences the convicted criminals get for their act of outright terrorism (the were attempting to frighten and damage the protestors movement)...   Just like the GCSB, and similar inconveniences of the day, they just got swept aside.

And do try to remember...in many countries US and European interests, and their Allied financiers are doing some pretty nasty things.  Especially to forward US commercial interests (Monsanto springs to mind)

I have a right to privacy and expect my Government to uphold my right to such, domestically and internationally. 
Further there is so much cross pollination from the US govn into US industry that I wouldnt be surprised in the least if commercial secrets flow copiously into the "wrong hands".
"nonsense fed to them" none so blind as those that dont want to see in your case.
Things are always going to blow up, the q is who's finger is on the trigger, the US does not have clean hands to say the least.
JK is the last person we want leading NZ, the only thing is labour are little better.
regards
 

its not people like you or me they care about, its the 'crazies' that they are protecting us from...

"we have already had one bomb go off in our country."
 
Yes, protect us from those French crazies.

There was the Wellington Trades Hall the year before
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9872178/Wellingtons-unsolved-Trade...
whoever tried to bomb a meeting of union leaders and killed the caretaker was never caught. I wonder if the head of the SIS would be happy to open those files.
In fact, between Greenpeace and the Trades Hall I would say that the victims of Terrorism in NZ have come from ranks that those on the far right call for cracking down on.

Invade our rights and freedom to "protect" us from 30-odd years ago is like Wheeler fighting the 1970s inflation fears by keeping interest rates and the NZ$ high, thereby making our export industries struggle (but boy do the banksters like his moves).  Follow the money.
 

The point is we the people are vunerable and it is the duty of our Government to protect us.  Sadly over 30 odd years we can see that our Govn isnt doing a very good job.
regards

Looking at who is involved and how our government acts, the monitoring services and legal people are far more likely to use their access to justify a terrorist action against groups they don't like, and excuse/appease political connections they want, than to seek justice to protect the innocent.

eg French government (sanctioned or not) agents hitting "terrorist agitators "Greenpeace" just enough data would be declred and released to prove these "Greenpeace" people had connections with hostile powers.
eg consider what happened to the Christchurch activist who our own intelligence community repeatedly broke into his house (illegally) and found nothing, and then tried to drag together pieces to excuse their activity.
eg Trades Hall, obviously more communists seeking to place themselves in strategic industries, a slap on the wrist who whomever might try such resiustance.
eg dotcom,  The only Judge to verbally speakout against the bullying by the US, forced to resign.  Our police and GCSB intelligence people falling over themselves to help US commercial interests (not government) against a private citizen who had broken no law.  Does the information released show the inappropriate actions of the US commercial interests? no.  It was used to justify miltary style activity against a private NZ citizen.

Uh no, they define who the crazies are, not us.
regards

Not foreign Govns?  oh no, no way would our citizen's and soil be sullied by illegal and criminal actions.
yeah right.
regards

After all the bluff, bluster and boatmanesque try reading the very level-headed commentary from John Armstrong in NZ Herald today
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong/news/article.cfm?a_id=3&objectid=11309684
 

thanks

Any reference to Watergate only reminds me of what Nixon said...I am not a crook.

Interesting that Hager has said that he 'cleaned out his house' and no longer has his source material.  If he believed that what he wrote was entirely above board, why did he do this?  He also claims that he didn't expect the book to be as big as it is.  If that is to be believed, again why did he get rid of his source material?  
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20145773
 
I did read somewhere else that he thought the police might come calling so cleaned his house out. Why would the police come calling if what he has done wasn't illegal? (Sorry not in NZ at the mo and am having problems finding that link).  He also appears to have two standards in relation to hacked material - one for him and one for everyone else, when he said he believes that police should investigate National for 'hacking' Labours website (for which it appears Cunliffe only wants an apology - Labour has had  the email since June 2011).  Labour only now coming forward and saying they want an apology suggests that in fact National didn't 'hack' Labour but that the files were publically available at the time. 
We do accept that one of our staff visited your public website via URL http://healthyhomeshealthykiwis.org.nz and read files that were publicly available," it said.
"It appears that he downloaded a file named Labour Newsletter and several compressed files with the view of reading later. In fact the compressed files remain un-opened."
"The National Party has not and will not be publishing any of it and has not and will not be releasing any personal information." 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309931
 
Unless Hager now releases his source information he risks becoming a 'Hollow Man' himself.  

Having seen what happened to dotcom, he was probably very wise.
I mean copious quantities of armed NZ police/army turning up to arrest a law abiding person in NZ is simply wrong.  2 bobbies on their way to the station would have been far more in line with New Zealand style.
"hollow man" no dont think so some how.
regards
 
 

CO: "I did read somewhere else that he thought the police might come calling so cleaned his house out. Why would the police come calling if what he has done wasn't illegal? "
 
Perhaps, realising the firm control the current government has over actions of our police, and its Nixonian/Crusher vendettas against its perceived :'enemies', he felt it the prudent thing to do to protect the innocent and/or his sources.  Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.  c.f. from NZHerald.co.nz today:
Hager had, in 2013, helped research a Fairfax media article about the use of tax havens.
Odgers, a Hong Kong-based tax consultant, said in the email [to WhaleOil] the material Hager was dealing with involved tens of thousands of rich Chinese.
"It would be a disaster if they all knew where he [Hager] lived. He may even need police protection", she wrote. "Those Chinese can be very vicious when they lose face ... Chop chop for Nicky."

BTW, these latter are the type of people the Nats are allowing to buy our land and properties.

That Cathy Odgers sounds like she needs to be recruited by JK to replace Crusher if the latter has to take a fall.

"Slater v Dotcom [who] denied this in a tweet threatening Slater with legal action."
Go for it dotcom, that nasty peice of work deserves all he gets.
regards

be careful what you wish for steven...

The truth? nope....
regards

Whose truth? Rodney Hide says Hagers claims he was forced to go is wrong.  So whose 'truth' do we believe - Hager's or Hide's.  I may believe Hide and you may choose to believe Hagar.  We each believe our views to be the 'truth' but we have a different 'truth'.  
 
Hager has not gone to anyone for verification of any of his assumptions neither has he kept a copy of the original source material.  So what he has written are his assumptions on reading someone elses writings and then not keeping a copy of those writings for others to make their own assumptions about.  Therefore to date we have no proof that what he has written is, in fact, the 'truth' and not just a 'story according to Nicky Hager'.   Hopefully with Labour and the Greens making complaints it will force Hager to release his source material to the police et al in order for them to look in to the complaints properly.  For how else can the police conduct an investigation if they don't have a copy of all the 'evidence'.  

Crusty won't have to fall. She will have critical info that could bring down the government.
For example -  If there was anything to the Dotcom stitch up - entice him to NZ so the Feds can grab him - she and Key and perhaps a few others (Coleman) would have been intimately involved. If she is asked to pack then woman scorned and all....
There must be a lot of this going on with normal corners being cut in the tos and fros of parliamentary life. Keys continual denial with "I know nothing" would quickly be shown as the joke it is with the production of a couple of emails. His legacy is getting tainted and will possibly end up just being the Asiafukation of AKL.

I think we can all agree that Little Johnny & the Gnats have done a reasonably good job of governing Godzone for the last 6 years , and given the shambles that is the left side of politics , will probably get voted in for one more term ....
 
... Nicky Hager epitomises the increasingly strident nature of the left , shrieking & thrashing that it just ain't fair , so they're playing dirty tactics , and falling even further behind in the polls ...
 
The " beltway " just aren't listening , no one wants a bar of Cunliffe ,  no one believes Hager , nor can be bothered with the sugar daddy and his sweet Laila ...
 
... they're more peeved that the AB's drew a game against the Wallabies because of a whistle happy ref , and more intrigued that meebee pop icon Cliff Richard has been Rolfing teenage boys ... no one mentions Cunny and Hager ...
 
Labour's time will come in 2017 or 2020 , when they ditch the deadwood of the Helen Clark era , and promote some smart thinking youngsters in their place ...

No we dont all agree.
kindly speak for yourself.
"they're more peeved that the AB's drew a game against the Wallabies" that sadly is could be quite accurate.
regards

.... you don't agree with me ...
 
Now that is a surprise ! .... halt the presses ed. , gotta scoop for you :
 
" Steven disagrees with the Gummster ! " .... who'da thunk it possible ... could be a book in this ... got any emails you snitched illegally , to forward to me ?

No, its Gumpster doesnt speak for everyone, maybe you have delusions of grandeur like kim jong-un....
regards
 

no he hasnt done a reasonable job.  exporters stretched and some closing shop, dotcom coverup, sell off of nz silverware, sell off of nz itself, his party being pardon on their fake "resignations"....

the only positive thing that can be said is labor & grins would be much worse

GBH: " think we can all agree that Little Johnny & the Gnats have done a reasonably good job of governing Godzone for the last 6 years ...[for the wealthy and overseas interests while turning Cullen's prudent surpluses into JK deficits]."

New polls, taken before the Hager relevations, show Nats lowering and others rising.  Long may it continue for the sake of the country.

Nicky Hagar just might have thrown a spanner into John Key's best laid plans of mice and men....  I guess we will see the smugness gradually being replaced with concern that the NZ population might not be the walk over he believed. 

Will - "might not be the walk over he believed". - is that just your assumption? Do you have a series of emails that you have interpreted to come up with this (quite popular in the last couple of days) or is it just pure ideal speculation that you expect someone to take some notice of?