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Financial market fears of National loss in election grow as Whaledump begins drip-feeding Slater's docs; Hooton says National will now lose

Financial market fears of National loss in election grow as Whaledump begins drip-feeding Slater's docs; Hooton says National will now lose

By Bernard Hickey

With 32 days to go until the September 20 election, here's my daily round-up of political news on Tuesday August 15, including growing fears in financial and prediction markets that the dripfeeding of the documents behind the 'Dirty Politics' book could damage National so badly as to cost them the election.

Whaledump released another document on Tuesday showing Justice Minister Judith Collins also leaked the phone number of Simon Pleasants, an official, to Cameron Slater. The Whaleoil blogger went on to suggest Pleasants, a former Labour staffer, had leaked details of Finance Minister Bill English's expenses. Pleasants then received death threats.

Collins has previously only admitted handing over Pleasants' name to Slater.

TVNZ reported Key was asked this morning about Collins' leaking of both the name and the number of Pleasants. He was also asked if he had asked for Collins to hand over the emails.

"I don't think she has those because they have obviously been hacked by a left-wing person," Key is reported to have said. TVNZ reported Key then abruptly walked away from media after more questions about the emails.

Later he was reported to have said Collins had been "unwise" to hand over the private number of the official, but that he stood by her because the action was "historical" and before he gave her a 'last chance' warning over her actions around Oravida.

Finance Minister Bill English was also questioned about Collins' leaking of the information to Cameron Slater. He said it's not something he would do, but referred further questions about whether he had confidence in Collins to Prime Minister John Key.

"That's a style of politics. It's not a style I like ,and I don't participate in it. It's certainly not John Key's style," English said. "I wouldn't condone an attack on a public servant," English said when asked about Collins' leaking of information.

Financial market fears

Share prices of the power companies, seen as a proxy for the Government given the Labour/Green plan for a single power buyer, were weak yesterday and the chances of John Key remaining Prime Minister have dropped sharply on the iPredict predictions market in recent days from over 80% to 71%.

The start of the 'Whaledumps' on Monday by the hacker of Cameron Slater 's documents has created the risk of debilitating leaks of information day after day to dominate the campaign until September 20.

Even public supporters of Prime Minister John Key are concerned he is not doing enough to stop the toxicity around Cameron Slater from infecting the 'brand' of the Government, and even Key himself -- who has admitted privately talking and texting with Slater regularly.

The documents were released onto Mega.com, but appeared to have been deleted by late on Monday evening. They were also released onto Imgur.

They show Key's then Press Secretary Kevin Taylor saying to Slater in May 2008 Key would not do a video interview with Slater as the office "planned not to engage with bloggers", but adding that fellow National staffer Jason Ede would be giving Slater a call.

They then show Ede coaching Slater in June 2012 on how to make an OIA request aimed at embarrassing MFaT officials opposed to a restructure.

Key had previously challenged Nicky Hager to release the documents underpinning his 'Dirty Politics' book.

Key's major defence so far is that Hager made up elements of the book, had made incorrect assumptions and drawn too many long bows. Now the source documents are being distributed to other media, that accusation will be tested. So far, no one has denied any of the quotes from Slater and others in the book.

The New Zealand Herald reported separately from the documents behind the book this morning, including new details about Slater's connections with an ex-prostitute and his drive for dirt on politicians.

"Right let's get digging," he wrote. "Time to let those pricks know they can be got. I want to take out some pollies."

A month later, Ms Francis said she was going through accounts from her time running a "club" and "there are some high [profile] people's accounts on there that will ping my memory". Slater replied: "Oooohhh can I have the politicians please."

Slater also sought out information on people in the media, telling Ms Francis he wanted "any sleaze" on Duncan Garner, TV3's then political editor and now a RadioLive host. "Sadly no," she responded.

"Scratch around please," Slater asked. "He is being a c**k and it is never wise to piss off the Whale."

The reaction is building...

Key's decision to simply attack the truth of the book and defend Jason Ede and Judith Collins, while also not dissociating himself from Slater, is drawing mounting criticism, often from commentators supportive of Key.

Duncan Garner was typically direct in this piece on Radio Live. "Key needs a better defence than to just be in denial about all this. So much of it has clearly happened. His defence is now part of the weakness," Garner said, adding Collins should be sacked.

"The Prime Minister needs to take some action, admit some errors and accept what some of his people were up to – because this is a new form of ugly – and his defence is brittle, if not already broken."

Matthew Hooton wrote at the NBR that Key's story did not add up. He called on Key to sack his Chief of Staff Wayne Eagleson and said the political reaction was enough to make David Cunliffe Prime Minister by the end of the year.

The discussion between Kathryn Ryan, Hooton and Mike Williams on Nine to Noon on Monday morning was instructive.

'Cunliffe PM by Christmas'

Matthew Hooton said Key was trying to talk past the Press Gallery and the media.

"He is talking directly to the people who listen to Rock FM and who don't listen to Nine to Noon. He is relying on his popularity being such that he can just say it's just nonsense and a pack of lies and hardly anyone has read the book and they'll believe him," Hooton said.

"The problem is the is not working with the media because what the Prime Minister is saying is preposterous," he said, adding he now thought David Cunliffe would be the Prime Minister at the end of the year.

Many of the Press Gallery and others in the political scene read the book over the weekend. The details and tone of the quotes in the book have transformed the campaign and threaten to undermine the credibility of the National Government's greatest asset (and the centrepiece of its campaign) -- John Key.

Anyone who cannot understand the intensity of the coverage or is mystified as to why many in the Press Gallery are deeply sceptical about Key's response simply needs to read the book. It is short and on kindle.

(Updated with Bill English distancing himself from Judith Collins, another Whaledump leaking showing Collins leaked an official's number to Slater, and John Key walking away from reporters after repeated questioning, Key saying Collins was unwise to hand over the official's private number to Slater, but that he still stood by her)

I'll update this regularly through the day.

See all my previous election diaries here.

See the index for Interest.co.nz's special election policy comparison pages here.

We welcome your comments below. If you are not already registered, please register to comment.

Remember we welcome robust, respectful and insightful debate. We don't welcome abusive or defamatory comments and will de-register those repeatedly making such comments. Our current comment policy is here.

188 Comments

Wishful thinking Bernard

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?

 

Bernard's just summed up the events of the day, it's right wing commentator Matthew Hooten saying Cunliffe will be PM.

 

Take your blinkers off.

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"Those would be just the clothes for me," thought the Emperor. "If I wore them I would be able to discover which men in my empire are unfit for their posts. And I could tell the wise men from the fools. Yes, I certainly must get some of the stuff woven for me right away." He paid the two swindlers a large sum of money to start work at once.

 

Hans Christain Andersons...The Emperors New Cloths

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Still got that idea that he'll be set up for the presidency..!

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As a true conservative I have always had an absolute dislike of John Key and National. Back on August 8th - before this controvery blew up - I warned:

 

"National is the true enemy of political conservatism. At least, to borrow the words of Cicero, the left: “carry their banner openly”.  National betrays conservatism whilst, again to borrow from Cicero, it is found: “speaking with accents familiar”. Irrespective, one suspects the tide of events will steadily ebb in favour of New Zealand conservatism going forward with the left ever more aggressive and nasty..."

 

Be cautious. The argument - "that the other side is as bad or worse, just doesnt add up, apart from in the school yard" - is dangerously naive in my view. This is precisely the mindset that led my Pommy countrymen to elect Tony Blair. The consequences, particularly for those of more modest means, have been literally catastrophic. In particular Labour in Britain worked to punish the white working class for their support of Margaret Thatcher during the 1980s. This was primarily achieved by literally flooding their communities with mass immigration and applying a differential rule of law to the newcomer to that which applied to the "indigenous" population.

 

A left-wing "cabal" may well be the necessary counter-trend catalyst that ingnites the forces of true conservatism going forward. How much does New Zealand owe overseas? I wonder how the bankers will react to one of their own being evicted from office? How will Kiwis manage if a massive attack is launched to debase the New Zealand dollar? I can't help thinking that this is a country preparing to leap from the frying pan into the fire.

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Im interested why you think you are a true conservative, all your words point to "tea party"  supporter such certianly doesnt ring with more "traditional" views of Conservatism say Maggie Thatcher and left of her...

"speaking with accents familiar”" well if by that you mean National sits close to the centre of politics, well conventionally it has to, that is where the swing voter is and they decide elections, , as taught by HC and Tony Blair, not 2~3% out there on the far right.

"ingnites the forces of true conservatism going forward" I think not.

"leap from the frying pan into the fire." indeed however its self inflicted, greed in making money off property has led to excessive borrowing.

"the bankers will react" will can I think already see the fear / concern from this weekends events, if it isnt cauterised it will I think become self-continuing death spiral for the right.  I can but hope so.

regards

 

 

 

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When Cicero spoke of "accents familiar" he was warning of those who actually serve other masters but who take pains to appear loyal to their nation. We know the agenda of the left - social engineering, the surrender of sovereignty to supra-national authority (this intent acknowledged by Clement Atlee at Westminster on 13th December 1933 and recorded in Hansard) and the confiscation of both income and assets. The right claims to believe in other things and makes comforting noises ("accents familiar") but do they actually believe anything different? For example - look at their attitude to property rights in Christchurch.

 

As to Margaret Thatcher she was the enacter of Enoch Powell's conservatism - but only to an extent. No true British Conservative would want anything to do with the Tea Party incidentally. One of Lady Thatcher's failings was to not understand the extent to which America had shafted us in the post-war period. However, she was right to point out that "the problem with socialism is that in the end you run out of other people's money". It is at that point - and the time is coming - when more a more conservative political topography is likely.

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CT, You make it sound like the left / right are reading from a script not to be deviated from. Our Conservatism is America's left. Doesnt that tell you something.

Predictions of doom if we deviate from the "one true path" are the stock and trade of zealots ... the stuff of belief not evidence.

While there are distincitives of left / right, I would suggest that our pollies tweek their settings, so a complex mix of policy eventuates barely recognisable to the purist.

The idea that the left will spend up large is a trivialisation of what I observe in reality Remember the Labors suplus that the the Nats were wanting to spend up on 10 years ago?

The Labor gov of the time were practicing fiscal conservatism!

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While I think conservatism is critically flawed, but understandable from the majority of people that are linear thinkers, I think you are right on the money in your last paragraph. I have been saying that Key being part of the club is the only reason the world has not turned against us. Should National lose then I am picking you are right, the world will. Notwithstanding the WMP relationship to the dollar that some here highlight.

 

But, the world turning against us is only a matter time, having National in just delays the inevitable and will perhaps make the enentual swing worse.

 

The events you highlight in Britain probably have little to do with politics and more to do with banking. Low birth rates are a killer to the banking ponzi scheme so importing is a logical step to make up the shortfall.

 

You also have the fact that Britain turned from net exporter of natural gas, to net importer, in 2004. The energy balance tells you that economically Britain is stuffed, same as when they peaked in coal. The only thing that keeps them going is their unearned income from being a financial hub.

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How will the bankers react?  I imagine the same as every other time we have had a left of centre government, business will carry on as usual.

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This whole saga is mirrored in Key and Brownlees's handling of Chch.

 

In 2011 there was an obvious shift in the handling of EQC claims to draw out the process, make low ball, estimates and deny all damage.  Clearly a directive must have existed where if there could be found a reason to draw out the claim and lower the cost then EQC should do it.

 

This has meant that many thousands of properties are still in limbo, unrepaired with no sign of it happening any time soon.

 

EQC then have in many cases just deposited cash settlements in the property owners bank, for amounts vastly below actual costs, just hoping they will go away.

 

This has all been done without the transparency of how those costs were arrived at being disclosed.

 

All this has done has aided and abetted private insurers from having to payout.

 

On top of this a red zone buyout that defied logic, with bare landowners being offered half the RV.  And the RV basis defying logic itself.

 

Then CBD land confiscation which again defied logic, except to help keep prices up!  And mega think big civic projects that no one wants or can afford which has meant that numerous undamaged or repairable buildings were demolished.

 

It is interesting that one of the bigger demolition firms in ChCh has National hoardings outside their depot!

 

Hand outs for their mates seems the order of this Government, and bugger any small individuals...

 

I voted National even when Bill English had only 20% odd in 2002.  

 

This time I will definitely vote to change and oust this bunch of arrogant, self serving buffoons who have no interest in the rights of individuals and are clearly working for the interests of their mates, whether that be insurance companies, big construction firms, big demolition companies, Chinese or US interests etc etc

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Agree completely Chris_J.

 

I think the Nasty party has created a climate of fear and patronage within civil society. This allows them to implicitly hint and suggest the 'correct' course of action without being exposed by any explicit public directive.

 

This problem is bigger than the odious behaviour of a few indviduals, or even the systematic creation of a hidden attack political machine. This is about the power we give to our politicians and the lack of checks and balances on that power.

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I wouldn't be at all surprised if the hacker is one very smart person from Christchurch, or with family connections in Christchurch, who shares in both these experiences and views.

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Very good CJ (and Conservative Thinker), And add to all that the corruption around Canterbury water and SCF!

Ergophobia

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I for one welcome our future Labour-Greens-Mana-Internet-Maori-NZ First overlords....

 

Say what you will about John Key, but at least he provides a stable government.

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China seems to have a pretty stable government. Maybe we should adopt their model?

 

If the best National shills can do is say but at least you know how corrupt we are I think they might be in trouble.  

 

If John Key had of handled this properly and accepted some mistakes were made and fired his pit-bull Collins  (or simply demoted for a year) all this would be sorted and National would still win the election.  Instead he has come across like a dictator annoyed that the media are actually starting to make him answer their questions instead being bamboozled by his retarded speech patterns.  I think most sensible New Zealanders would agree with me.  

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I agree except for the bit about maybe accepting the China model to governance.

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Did you hear his interview with Guyon Espiner on Radiolive? Key couldn't (or wouldn't) answer any of Guyon's upfront questions and constantly tried to use half-baked analogies rather than give any answers.

You could hear Guyon's frustration when Key resorted to his usual 'retarded speech patterns' (as you so aptly described!).

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The Labour Party are virtually the same old tired hacks everybody voted out 2 elections ago,so why would you vote them back in because they will be the majority in power should National lose.Banning the docking of dog tails and Warrants of Fitnesses for houses will only be the start of it. Don't vote for party they are all the same.

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And Ryall, the Smiths, Carter, McCully, English, Brownlee etc etc weren't chucked out in 1999?

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You are correct ,so why would we vote in another bunch of retreads given that leopards don't change spots.

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To vote out a worse bunch!?

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I pray that DC and his offsiders will be up for the job after September election.. NZ doesn't need another economic experiment by the Labgreens 

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DC and his mates may have to go to the confessional box before your prayers are answered.

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DC has a finance degree from Harvard and was the star business consultant for Boston Consultancy Group.

 

Many have written him off but he has a sound financial mind.

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Agreed. Where’s the options. NZ is a centre country with slight leans either way. Looking at the Labour-Greens-Mana-Internet-Maori-NZ First troika……, would be like having Act and Conservative running the country alone - neither appeal.

Really sad to see politics and Media reporting sink so low, with both sides as bad as one another. The right has had to put up with poor reporting from the likes of NZ Herald and John Campbell for years, no wonder  they looked for options. Slates father was President of National, so no surprises there. But who actually reads his stuff other than media hacks who re publish it in an attempt call that work. Then there’s Mr hack a-lot the fat German, funding breaking into people’s stuff and hiding access in the mega cloud. If the Labour-Greens-Mana-Internet-Maori-NZ leaders were all hacked at that level of exposure, what would we really find…..

End of the day where’s the policies and actual leadership. Stuff like "I’m sorry I’m a man" simply alienates half of the working classes – give us some real options, without them its easy to see why people don’t vote.

 

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Not quite.  It would be like Act, Conservatives and National running the country.

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Lets cut to the chase - Key is treating the NZ public as if they are buffoons and it is not worthy of the man. He needs to get rid of Collins for starters (if he can - she will have heaps of dirt from their conniving) and then apologize to NZ. Shooting the messenger is all he has ever had and it ain't going to work this time.

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It has certainly appeared throught Keys handling of Collins' major stuffups that she has something big on him.  She does lead a large faction within national, it's not remotely strong enough to roll him, but still necessary to keep on-side.  Is it just this or does Collins have something else on him?

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We are buffoons ... See my comment below as to what the political landscape in NZ will be on 21 September 2014...

 

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"How can a PM lie so much and get away with it for so long?....." What do you mean? Helen and Michael did it for 9 years, blatantly. What we see now is that they are all the SAME. If you don't think a party is doing it, then you are more stupid than those that blindly swallow Hager's spin on what he has.

 

Most of this look to me like a right wing blogger acting independently with a little help from a small few politicians. Who do you think is backing Hager?

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Most of this look to me like a right wing blogger acting independently with a little help from a small few politicians

 

By definition he cannot be acting 'independently' if he's receiving information or 'help' from politicians.This should help clear this up for you. A big fail on all three counts:
 

Independently:

adverb
  1. in a way that is free from outside control or influence.
  2. without outside help; unaided.
  3. in a way that is not connected with another; individually.

 

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I find this quite fascinating.  It appears the National Party's new strategy is to say:

 

"They're all the SAME."  

 

You can see this line being repeated all over social media and comments sections of websites such as this at the moment - my guess is that it's a directive from Crosby Textor.  Most kiwis will see that this claim is absolute rubbish, there has NEVER been anything as dirty as this in NZ politics.  I've got the book myself, it's both fascinating and disgusting at the same time!  National's support will be whittled down to the hardcore supporters over the coming weeks, not looking good for John Key.

 

Looks like we'll be getting a capital gains tax soon then.  And the Auckland Rail Loop!

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Remember some body saying before..I am not a crook.

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Just a reminder that Dotcom has also promised some dirt on Key before the election.

 

Funny thing with the whole show, which I generally don't care too much for, is that 95% of people I know hate John Key. You should see the material doing the rounds on facebook about him! Even here on what would be more a right wing blog the numbers seem agaisnt him overall.

 

Why the heck is Key still doing so well in the polls? Could it be that half the population are just happily and quietly getting on with their lives with not much to trouble them?

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Yes, I remembered that.  NZers are going to get done by a fat sausage!

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A Reincarnate of David Lange? Smarter, but not quite as eloquent. Did you read the Guardian piece on him that AndrewJ posted.

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Yes I did. 

NZ is going for the prestigious UN Security Council seat , doesn't matter who will be in charged after September.  NZ will need support from the permanent members, no doubt some pressures will be applied to NZ from the US.. May be KDC will be one topics of discussion.. who knows!

 

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Ah okay. Agree on your verdict on that, it is one reason why I don't bother with the illusion of a vote.

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"We ought to envisage the creation of an international police force as a deliberate attempt to build up a world State". (Clement Atlee - subsequently Britain's post-war Prime Minister "carrying his banner openly" about the left's dastardly plans for the world's future during a parliamentary debate on 13th December 1933).

 

 

"Let me seek to deal with the first conception, that an international police force is a practical proposition to-day. The usual conception of such a force is the conception of the hon. Member for West Leeds—an air force. What weapon is that air force to use? I presume that one of the most effective as well as one of the most denounced weapons of the air force is the bomb. I do not know that I should feel the happier in smithereens as the result of an international rather than as the result of a national bomb". (Some great wisdon from Sir Anthony Eden in reply - a true conservative).

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It's not so much Key doing well in the polls, it's everyone else is horrific.

Labour are crazy, disorganised, buying votes but no real idea where money is coming from, there "leadership" always seems petty and onestep behind or just plan confused.

Greens are just a sub-section of Labour, and are basically the Labour young guns with crazier ideas and less clues about how to make it work ... and less appeal for the working class (although students who don't have to pay for many of the ideas are idealist about them)

Act and Conservative and NF are just too Christianised for most New Zealanders and are only seen as supporting parties at best (if your average Kiwi has even heard of them)

Dotcom party (going under the name Internet) is just seen as a personal vendetta against Key.  No-one seems to have heard solid policies on major items on the agenda.  Will these guys really be able to hold a budget and deal with an opposition made up of everyone else.

Mana...support Dotcom and only appeal to a niche of NZers anyway.

I don't think NZF have what it takes, But they're saner than Labour, more fiscal/economic than Green, Not National sell NZ, and more experience than Dotcom.  And more secular than ACT/Cons.  It's where I'm voting.

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Fair enough analysis. Winnie is probably the only one left with any sort of style.

 

I do know someone mad keen on Mana-Internet, to the degree he connected them with Amnesty International so that they get human rights into their constitution. Was also looking at the money supply issue for the same reason.

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If they keep doing that they might be some sort of contender next election, but for now...no real economic or social policies to make it through next 3 yrs....   And they can't make it on personality if they don't have history (the bigger parties have history to carry them through a lot of the general stuff).

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I'm interested in your comments about "Christianised" Act and Conservatives.  The Conservatives - obviously yes, you just have to take one look (& listen) at Craig & Co.  It is both their strength (Christian fundamentalist conservatives finding a natural home, which they haven't had since their last leader was outed as a paedophile) and weakness (secular conservatives don't go for the flakiness). 

But Act?  I've always felt the other way around - they've never got more than a few % of the vote, because they haven't appealed to the religious right, with divorced Brash & Hide & suchlike, & pretty much skirting the moral issues etc.  So.... am I wrong?  I realise that John ("the earth was created in 5 days") Banks is an exception to my argument. 

I'm interested in further comments on this topic, you've got me wondering. 

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I think you mean "their" ...

 

As for the rest of your comment, you're dreaming.  Labour's leadership has come under sustained attack from the Prime Minister's office, via the slug and his "blog".

 

This is the issue - National's dirty attack politics and it's intended effect on THEIR opposition.  Nice attempt at a diversion, but the fact is the Nats are in serious trouble and Labour's looking like a good alternative and really quite positive in comparison to John Key's negativity.

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I think you mean "its"
:)

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no idea who the "slug" is and don't care.

I have zero interst in muck slinging...that kind of person is the type that makes time in the House all about personal abuse and cheap tricks/theatrics.   Such things detract from the importance of the job and so anyone wanting to get involved in muck slinging is O.U.T.   That goes double for the hold-off until weeks before election rubbish.  Cheap stunt to make best splash on the advertising. 

If there's someone doing something screwy (eg a justice minister breaking gun laws) then it needs to be pulled out asap.  not keep for cheap political points.

Labour as an alternative? alternative universe maybe.  they have zero way of paying for their policies, and the cost will result in more NZ sell-offs or pulling the money from the poor and middle-classes.

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I suspect that this is the dirt that Dotcom was hinting at. Whaledump seems to be advertising mega.co.nz.

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All a part of the intentionally mischievous hallmarks of hackers according to the Herald;

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311008

 

I particularly laughed about the encryption key resolving to Winston Peters' Parliamentary email address. Clever hacker - even the name Whaledump has obviously had some thought put into it. And the Twitter icon ... all very thoughtful.

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Agree, Im mystified. All i can think of is enough of the middle are terrified of a very left looking govn to be running a mile, I cant blame them too much.

regards

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You mean those landline polls?? 20% of kiwis don't even have landlines.

 

Our polling needs to be refreshed.  Roy Morgan is most accurate.

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Um, not so IMHO, they are fairly accurate.  Oh and "roy morgan" rings me quite often, on my land line, so why would RM be any better? Also look at the volitility of the polls, ie you need to look at 4 points to remove noise and get a trend, RM is no better in that respect from what I can see.

If you want a better feel I'd suggest the poll of polls and ipredict.

https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=contract_detail&contract=PM.2014…

Now that is a fascinating dip in the last week, looks to be down 10%...

but labour is only up 5%

https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=contract_detail&contract=PM.2014…

Interesting that gap, does in bode very well for NZF?

Up 4~5% that NZF will hold the balance of power.

https://www.ipredict.co.nz/app.php?do=contract_detail&contract=NZ1.BOP…

 

regards

 

 

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Those who are built up by the media, are now being taken down by the media...Wonder whether it is good for democracy to have lying politicians and a psychophant media...

Another lesson : Keep the media on your side and watch the trend.

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It has been proved time and again all over the world that conservatives loot their countries and enrich themselves at the cost of citizens, witness the not too distant past GFC.

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Agree, however in terms of natural capital the left loot it just as fast.

regards

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Brilliant... The voice of the smartest  (no sarcasm, I mean it) generally right-leaning commentators are turning on our blue overlords... While I agree entirely with the majority of anti-Nat sentiment here, I predicted Key and the boys ( and Judith of course) will win the 2014 election by a landslide and govern alone with only Dunne as the party lapdog... Wholesale sell up of NZ farms, businesses, houses will increase exponentially to the 'hot' money coming out of China, as the Nat leadership use their last three years in power to find executive roles in both Chinese banks and multinational businesses for their post political retirement jobs. Too late will the average Kiwi realise they have been duped and New Zealand will never be the same again... 

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dude, stop drinking!

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Mark my words boyo, mark my words, you know it's true ;) I've bookmarked this page to wave my prediction in your faces come 21/09/14

 

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There seems to be considerable disquiet on these sales. Sure National if it wins may allow it to continue, but I think they are brighter than that and see the vote loss from their base.

regards

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FYI updated with Bill English distancing himself from Judith Collins, another Whaledump leaking showing Collins leaked an official's number to Slater, and John Key walking away from reporters after repeated questioning.

cheers

Bernard

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How is giving someone a public official's number a leak?  It's public information isn't it?

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errr, the phone book?

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Actually, where did you get the idea it was his home land line?  The email looked like his offical contact details don't you think?  04 817 9999 is the number for Parliamnet, so quite likely 04 817 XXXX is a department number no?

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not sure if the bloke in question was "working for the goverment"....

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Linking a number to a name to an event, knowing full well it would be bad news for that person, that is abuse of the person and abuse of power.

and it often isnt in the phone book.

regards

 

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Where did you get the link to an event from?  There is an email sending someone offical contact details.  Where is the rest of it?

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Mr English is showing much more integrity than John Key and Minister Collins.

It's time for NZ to clean up the Government - Key's continued support for Collins and implausible deniability of knowlege of leaks to Slater and infiltration of Labour's records show how  the NZ voters has been duped by this guy. 

It's time now for JK to head for Hawaii, take up some directorships with Hollywood production companies, perhaps ask Obama for a World Bank job and tell anyone that listens what a great job he and his friends have done.  This could then leave the National Party and Mr English to lead a responsible repectable government.

We voted for John Key thinking he was a man of decency and solid values - what a disappointment. He seems to have designed a twisted little autocracy around himself where the rule of law, conflicts of interest and professionalism are merely distractions from the trappings of power.

 

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FYI updated with Key saying Collins was unwise to hand over the official's private number to Slater, but that he still stood by her because the actions were "historical"

cheers

Bernard

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... " historical " ? .... that's hysterical ... JK can't remove the Crusher before the election , too close to the vote ... but he can dump her afterwards ...

 

Last last last very last warning , Judith !!!!

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She'll resign before polling day.

 

Think House of Cards.

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... we can only pray that she does ... but given her desire for power , I doubt she'll have the good sense to step down ..

 

Question is , without Crusher , who are the females of talent within the Key close circle ?

 

... just my beloved Paula ... ahhhhh , Mistress Benefit .... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .... happy Gummy ....

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Hekia will be promoted - again! 

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Already above her pay grade - possibly the most hated lady in Christchurch.

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"Historical".

I bet the Catholic priests will be happy to hear that!

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FYI updated with Key saying he's standing behind Collins because her leak of the private details of the official was before he gave her her 'last chance' warning after the Oravida affair.

cheers

Bernard

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OMG - he's definitely losing the plot. With every newly concocted reason for not acting, the speculation will turn to what JC and Slater have on him. Oh what a tangled web we weave, eh? Bill English is playing this one brilliantly.

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It's breathtaking sophistry worthy of a mediaeval theologian. Who would ever have thought someone could make Winnie look like a straight-shooter?

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Indeed. And now Cam's waded in all bitter 'bout his mate Jase leaving he and JK to front it alone!

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11311070

 

 

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Funny. Ha ha that is.

 

So if Slater says Ede is not the ringmaster, who is?

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Slater has summed it up very well......he calls the shots as he sees it.....and good on him!! He's not afraid to express his rights to freedom of speech......at least everyone knows where they stand with him.......no hidden BS everything is straight up and down!

 

I don't think I'd call him bitter.....just honestly saying what he thinks and he does have a very valid point.

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LOL, indeed.

regards

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Key standing behind Collins indicates that there is the potential for even more damaging material to come out against the government. Her actions facilitated an unprecedented attack against an innocent civil servant - this needs to be taken seriously. We voted for a leader - someone who could show integrity especially under pressure.  John Key looked to be this man - I guess we were wrong.

Key must realise that we are all judged by "historical" actions - I hope the NZ public realises that September is our chance to show Key and Collins what we think of their unprofessional and cowardly behaviour. Time for a real leader in National to come forward - Key should not give 4th chances to Collins - he should set her out to pasture and show some responsibility

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Just an observation forwarding six months.

Assume the Nats can salvage a win (anything is still possible)

The teflon coating will have been permanently shed and Key will have gone.

Who will take over?

Collins? -no chance

English? -tried and found wanting

Joyce? -not enough talent to drive the bus

No prediction offered for any progressive alternative but this country sure needs eyes and hands that can operate on a longer time span.

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Interesting times ahead.

A thought experiment (the safest kind): S'pose that the Gnats fall off the perch, and the following perfect economic storm comes to pass.

Egged on by the massively raised expectations of an economically illiterate populace, the LabGreenManiacs simultaneously implement:

  • Handouts right, left and centre
  • $20 minimum wage
  • Higher taxes to the wealth generators
  • The usual stacking of Gubmint staffing by the soft-degreed academics to keep them on the Res
  • give the TLA's back their Four Well-beings (Green policy)
  • Stop Transmission Gully
  • Expedite the Awkland Rail Loop
  • Convert the RONS budget to cargo bicycles and cyclepaths
  • National Water and Nutrients policy which effectively rules out some dairy/intensive hort 

And, to add spice to the mix:

  • Dairy payouts fall, taking a coupla billion GDP each 50c
  • Currency falls a bit, raising most input costs (especially for capex) and not helping exports much
  • Interest rates rise with the risk premium
  • John Galt wakes up and production falls as producers throw in the towel
  • Tax receipts fall precipitously (Unexpectedly!)
  • Boomers retire but find that the pension pot is a leetle light because of:
  • A stutter if not a crash in the stock markets (promptly reflected in most folks' KiwiSaver balances) and
  • Someone has already raided the Cullen Fund to pay for - well yez all can probly connect the dots....

Fasten yer seat-belts......it will be a Adrenalin-filled Ride!

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give the TLA's back their Four Well-beings (Green policy)

 

and Labour's policy. Interest are being a bit tardy updating the election policy tables...

 

...but who cares?  No-one gives a s--t about policy now :-) 

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I think the min livable wage is "offically" $18.50, and Im not sure labour said they would go that far but $16?

"Adrenalin-filled Ride!" it will indeed, courtesy of the failed free market and their ignorance of peak oil.

regards

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If it is an adrenalin ride you are after.....perhaps try bungee jumping or sky-diving!!!

If Labour or the Greens think they can up the minimum wage or implement a living wage then they will plunge NZ into a crisis that will have ramifications for years.

 

 

 

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Hey, in Grannie Herald this fair morn, 'tis a buncha Cabinet Posts that the Greenish ones want.

 

It's not a Demand of course.

 

More of a Suggestion.

 

Be very, very afraid.....

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There's always the lawn in front of Parliament Waymad........

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Indeed I have protested on it.

regards

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When the second party in a joint Govn has 1/2 the seats of the other  I would suggest it goes without saying and indeed its fair that the Green's get a similar % of cabinet seats.

regards

 

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The fear tactic again. What's the problem, waymad - do you think they might sign us up in secret for the TPP, or they might raise GST when they clearly stated that was not a part of their policy manifesto going in to the election, or are they likely to bail out investors in some large NZ-based corporate entity with taxpayer dollars, etc.?

 

Really waymad, what exactly need I fear?  Be specific on one or more of their policy platforms and I'll go and research it. If it hasn't been properly costed or researched, fair enough, and I'd state that.

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Dream on...

regards

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waymad, 

National have done a great job presenting an image of economic competency despite considerable evidence to the contrary. Labour consistently of course had very high OBEGALs, made it a point of doing so, and you could expect themn to want to achieve that again. In six years National have not registered a surplus.

Labour Greens (and NZ First?) policies are likely to increase economic activity, and most certainly increase wealth retained in New Zealand. 

One of your perceptions that intrigued me was the hiring of civil servants, given I suspected that a good number of control freak ministers in National probably would have loaded up their departments, so I googled it.

Irony of ironies came the following link, to whale oil, Time to swing the axe, hard, where Mr Slater was bemoaning the fact the number of civil servants in the country was the highest since 2000.

 

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StephenL

Perhaps the GFC, Christchurch earthquake  and Michael "I've spent the lot and the cupboard is bare" Cullen had something to do with the lack of surpluses of late?

What is the evidence to the contrary regarding economic competency? Read the bits Bernard left out of his blinkered PREFU posting.

"Core crown expenses forecast to be 30.3% in 2015, down from 35% in 2011.

Economic growth for this year now forecast to be 3.8%.

Budget forecast unemployment forecast to be 4.5% by 2018.

Average annual wage forecast to increase by $6,600 to $62,000 by 2018.

Household disposable incomes rose 7.1% last year."

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Left out probably because contrary to the dishonest way in which you present them, they are not yet achievements.

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Talk about slitting hairs. Dishonest? Bernard only had a surplus forecast in his "honest" post. Or is posting positive news or balance classed as dishonest in your world? The increase in household disposable income has been achieved and is probably more meaningful to people lives than a forecast $75 million reduction in a budget forecast in a $180 billion economy.

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The fact that over 9 years Labour reduced the country's debt would tend to show a considerable trait in competancy, aim and forethought.

regards

 

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Here’s a news flash for you all, most people don’t care. The internet, and certainly this site, has a disproportionate number of left whingers relative to the NZ population and you all get so worked up about the smallest things; everyone knows that politicians, all politicians, use the media to promote themselves and slate the competition. The irony is that most people believe this is a plot by the left so in essence the left using a blogger to criticise the right for using bloggers. The vote positive campaign, the release of the data on MegaUpload… coincidence… I don’t think so.

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Seems to have a large number of new aliases poped up last few days.. may be they are all too chicken to use their regular aliases..

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Happy,

Many of us apparently don't share your views on where the acceptable line is in terms of offensive, corrupt and unacceptable politics.

Separately, the effects won't need your "most people" to change their views and voting habits, to change the government. Five people in a hundred would probably do it. Will these emails, and the book, and the activities and attitudes they expose, change say 5% of people's views?

There's a chance they might. 

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I was listening to morning report I think it was? and 4~5% loss could well be that fallout. 

Personally I think many NZers are extremely fair ppl and will be aghast at the antics we are seeing right now from National.  I know I am, but then I wouldnt vote for either of the two big parties anyway.

While I think the book was a mere handgrenade on National's chances of re-election, the mess National are making of this feel like its going to be a bigger hole, more like a Bismark shell.

That 4 or 5% doesnt have to go to labour of course but WP and he is making quite green noises, he might yet sail in on a bigger % than the 6~7% expected, 10% would be interesting and not good for National I think. 

regards

 

 

 

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So hacking Slaters computer and stealing all his personal data is OK with you? 

 

That survey would have asked all 100 people "would you change your vote" and left leaners would have said yes.  The exact wording of the question would need to have been "if you currently vote National will this stop you voting National in Sept?" 

 

Here's another interesting fact:

 

National election spending promises $1.89b
Labour election spending promises $6.7b + Greens promises + Internet Mana promises

Where exactly is this going to come from?

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I seperate the issues. On one hand I don't condone theft of data. On the other I'm very pleased it shown us what happens inside National before the election.

 The behaviour is awful ,shows a lack of empathy and sense of entitlement, I for one won't support it.

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So Aj, if as a result of the police investigation they decide that a law has been broken and lay charges (whatever, they may be),  and they are clearly proven by the evidence, as a member of  the jury what would your verdict be swayed by - the fact that a law was clearly broken or the fact that you were pleased the defendant broke the law and made available the results to a person to gain a financial advantage from?  

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No I would go with the law, but I cannot put the information back.

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CO, I think what AJ is saying is that this goes deeper than this policy setting verses the other. What this book has exposed is a undercurrent pervading this govt. I have had an increasing unease going back to the likes of Orivida, Brownlee bypassing security and Joyce's disgraceful performance on the nation. What this book has done is join the dots and show the underlying culture that  allows this stuff too surface and unfortunately that is being led from the top. To me this election is now a contest about character not policy.

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Sheep Shagger while I agree about the Character vs Policy......both rely on emotion and the facts can get skewed.

Theft for so-called public good is still theft and if people are prepared to steal once it tells me much about their character especially when they make claims it was a right or correct action  in justifying their theft.

 

Hager claims he is not politically motivated......but I cannot believe his statement. There is no balance....his book is a very one-sided look.....which makes me question Hager's integrity.......the mere act of leaving out any left-wing dirt and I'm sure there would be plenty places Hager in the position of influencing elections using stolen property and using information knowing that it was stolen for pecuniary advantage.

 

This notaneconomist is not going to fall for this Knight in Shining Armour character it is nothing more than an emotional diversion. It is like people who turn on the tears to get their own way....spiteful manipulation.

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I see it more as a revolution using modern methods...

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Revolution or method are insignificant without the drivers.....e.g. emotions.

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Haha, happy you're deluded. Lumping "the left" together the way the PM has been doing is desperate - you can smell the fear!  

 

It might not affect every New Zealander, but soft National voters and principled National voters (yes there are some) will not be voting for JK and his bunch this year.

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VA....Why would you accuse someone of being deluded?......that is an emotional swipe to put someone down!

Why would any principled person condone theft?

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I don't see you pulling up people who scream the "looney left".   If you think that is not an emotional swipe I don't know what is.  

 

It does make me smile seeing the looney right getting so upset.  I had no doubt National would win the election this year until this book came along.  If John Key had of handled this correctly it wouldn't have been a big deal simply sack collins and accept that certain behaviour was not acceptable.   Instead Key has denied the undeniable and now the media, who mostly ate whatever confusing words of gibberish came out of his mouth, have realised that he talks lots and says nothing.  When Key is forced to answer a question he comes across like a petulent kid.  

 

As for Happy123  I like him and think he has some good things to say.  In regards to this story though he seems to have got swept up in the emotion of frustration, like yourself, in the way National have shot themselves in the foot over their handling of the issue. 

 

 

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"Lumping "the left" together the way the PM has been doing is desperate - you can smell the fear!"

What?  There is no logic in that statement, why wouldn't he lump them together?  They're all going to form a coalition (alledgedly) together. 

What I'm saying is that the survey that is being banded around saying 9% of people are going to change their vote is not accurate, it would depend on the phrasing of the question. 

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Key is NZ's Tony Blair, you think ?

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No, Helen Clark was NZ's Tony Blair, she took Labour to the centre aka Blair and held it for 3 terms.  JK is not even NZ's David Cameron, Key had the sense or luck not to do a Cameron (bring in Austerity) and gut the economy.  In fact maybe more like Edward Heath.

regards

 

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I agree a small shift might be enough to hold National to account. There is no natural successor to Key. Collins will be out one way or another, Joyce is too smarmy and English is nearing his use by. Pretty certain Tsar Jerry will have cost National much support in Christchurch. Maybe Simon Bridges is the new guy?

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Poor Simon has difficulty managing his own portfolios so he has no real chance.

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This is not going away quickly

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I hope not...in fact its looking worse every day....yippee!

regards

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And the election is really becoming interesting now, will it draw more voters or put off more voters ?

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Wonder what the South Island politicians think of these shenanigans of the North Island pols ? 

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Like Bill English?

regards

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Key said today that Judith Collins "is the victim of a “highly orchestrated, left-wing smear campaign’’!  Wow, the poor thing!  I'm sure that if the shoe was on the other foot, she would be full of altruistic charity for Labour.  And, of course, she's just so totally squeaky clean, such a saint. 

Remind me, how does the saying finish? - "She who lives by the sword ......"

 

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All these left wing persons that Key always labels - has he ever stopped to think they are just peed off ex national voters like myself who are dissapointed in the man and the party. He promised so much but on reflection he has tried to force his trading style onto the political scene where the damage from one trade is forgotten as we merrily move on to the next. God knows what connivance him and blondie got into with the US to entice Dotcom to NZ so the feds could grab him. She obviously didn't think it through too much as she had an urgent Justice Minister appointment in China (?) to take care of.

Can the labour party do better? Probably not but let us hope that if they get in they can rise to the occasion - surely it is the kiwi way to give someone else a go when the current holder is lacking - Graham Henry not withstanding.

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It won't just be Labour that needs to rise to the ocassion if they can form a government it is also Mana-Internet as Labour are likely to need them.  Hone has already said with Minto, Sykes, and Harre, he will be bringing 'one mean bunch with attitude' to parliament. A vote for Labour is also a vote for Green, and Mana-Internet as Labour will be unable to govern alone. 

 

Protest votes are fine - just don't complain if it results in something you don't like.

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Correct Casual observer , the alternatives to a National Govt. are too disasterous to contemplate .

Imagine this rabble rousing riotous mob of screaming -effigy burning demonstators getting to power  in New Zealand ........... fortunately they dont have guns , because when you look at recent events in Egypt  , Libya , Syria , Tunisia , Central African Republic , and elsewhere ,  you can see why .

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oh dear, you really have lost the plot re guns.

On top of that, Egypt? starving ppl unable to afford bread? ditto syria, held down in effect by the military run by a corrupt Govenment, you know the onds officially with guns?

 

 

regards

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Correct Boatman, if the Greens get in, i predict 200,000 new zealanders will be dead within a year, and 1.5 million will be living in refugee camps across the pacific islands.

 

Much better to have a conservative-united future-act-nz first-national coallition and save all this mass slaughter.

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Hone and Larre are but 2 MPs. Sure they could bring down the Govn if they hold the balance of power, however I dont think they'd find that outcome positive for them and the left.

regards

 

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What does Dotcom really have planned for the Internet Party?  Given that the Internet Party and Mana will review their relationship 5 weeks after the election, one wonders if they will split from Mana and become somewhat more mainstream.  When one looks at the bio's of the top three rated Internet Party people and compare them to the top three rated people of Mana, there appears to be very little in common.  Will be interesting to watch from the sidelines.

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Um well 2 things,

Laila Harré I would say has a lot in common with Mana and its backend eg  john Minto (no 4?) etc seem pretty similar to me, quite hard core left wing, worryingly so. 

Dotcom, well he's p*ssed by the sound of it and I cant blame him, I would be to.  I mean for what might be a civil offence at most, to have police landing by helicopter armed with "assault weapons" to arrest someone with no known violent background, who has no FAL and hence no weapons, has a house with little physical security ie no high fences and also has 3 or 5 small children reaks of abuse of power to me.

I mean a while back a FAL owner who collects military weapons had his alarm go off and a few cops turned up armed with glocks.  If that had been a genuine heavy break in the perps would have had some serious weapons, the police would have stood no chance what so ever....

Yet dotcom deserved such an assault on his property? no way.

There are more interesting things going on IMHO,

1) one that is of more interest to me actually is crazy colin, fortunately it seems National have decided he's too toxic to hand a seat.

2) Peter Dunne's party transformation from a fundie stance to far more moderate is also interesting.

3) NZF's stance on green issues seems to have greatly softened suggesting they are  really working towards a left leaning 3 way deal, it could work out a good counter-balance to the Green's, could get my vote.

regards

 

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So the new zealand taxpayer is funding Whale Oil through Slaters sickness benefit?

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Absolutely brilliant. If a fiction writer made all this up, it wouldn't sell, because no-one would believe it.

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the article was from over four years ago.

Its actually a story of someone who was rock bottom rising to be currently the most sought after media personality..

 

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What it demonstrates to me is that he is a clinically unwell person. Someone who can call beneficiaries all manner of awful words and decry our social welfare/safety net system at every opportunity - whilst claiming a benefit himself.  These are not the actions of a rational man.

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he is doing pretty well if in spite of all the clinical mental issues you claim he currently has to be the #1 media personality at the moment.

espeecially as he is having to defend himself from the other side of the world at the moment.I imagine Hagers release of the book was timed to coenside with his trip to Israel.

If you want to hear some awful words then perhaps you should visit "The Standard" blog which is full of "articles" from Labour Party hacks...

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I have no idea about his current mental health. But it seems to me extremely objectionable that National Party people befriended and then used this obviously unwell person in a way that could only exacerbate his personal problems. In other words, you don't feed a drunk alcohol. I recall seeing one TV clip where Mr Slater boasted about all the famous names, including John Key, that he had on his phones speed-dial.  This was indicative to me of him believing that he had close relationships (i.e., was "friends") with all these people, but the reality is they were just using him. They had not gamefully employed him - he was never going to solve his financial problems by blogging - no matter how many filthy words he included in his writing. Dotcom recently posted an analysis on Twitter of his website traffic. If I recall correctly, more than 60% of his claimed hits are bots. The whole thing is just a big tragedy, fed by self-interested partisan politics. I'm with Winston Peters - it's a disgraceful chapter in NZ democracy. It has to change - we are not that type of gutter-driven society... not yet anyway. As Laila Harre said, "Can we have you back, Aotearoa"?

 

If The Standard is anything like Whaleoil, I don't need to visit it - had quite enough of foul language for the time being. I do hope the NZ Law Society does take disciplinary action against those two barristers who feature in there. We do need our upstanding institutions in NZ to take a stand against this type of heinous social behaviour.

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Crikey Kate - your opinions on mental health, unwell persons could be very objectionable to many people!

Why do you even feel the need to post articles on someone's past medical history? What does Slaters medical history have to do with you or any of us here? Has Slaters past medical history caused physical harm to you or others?

 

Many bloggers actually make very good money.....so you might want to review your opinion on solving financial problems by blogging!!!

 

If Winston is so worried about democracy then perhaps he would enlighten every NZ on the constitutional rights that NZ's have....no mention of that from Winston....Why?

Gotta watch the carrots....they all have dirt on them when first dug .

 

 

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Not sure how anyone could find discussion on mental health an objectionable topic? Seems to me Mr Slater's wife's decision to appear in the media was an act of reaching out for help in relation to someone she loves. I'm sure no one sees John Kirwan's speaking out on his mental health problems as objectionable?

 

What it has to do with all of us here is important. What I'm saying is that this style of gutter-politics should not be normalised. These behaviours are pathological. I believe those involved in fuelling this type of behaviour in others do society a great injustice. Many of the Whaleoil blog posts and the comments associated with them are the product of unhealthy minds. I only have compassion for those who display these type of behaviours - being angry and vindictive cannot be a happy state to live in. I think we need to recognise these behaviours for what they are - and that is not normal.

 

No idea what you are alluding to with respect to a NZ First policy that is unconstitutional. Would be very interested if you could elaborate.   

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Did I say that a discussion on mental health was an objectionable topic?? It was your information/advice that I was objecting too.

You stated 'National Party people befriended and then used this obviously unwell person in a way that could only exacerbate his personal problems".......

 

Are you qualified in mental health? Where is your evidence that the National Party have in some way abused their position in regards to Mr Slater? Where is your evidence that Mr Slaters condition worsened? How do you know what is good or bad for Mr Slater? Or for anyone else for that matter?

 

Anger and happy are both emotions......one can be happy saying what one thinks, one can be happy defending themselves from an outside source.....one can be happy playing an game of rugby.......some people seem be happy being narcissistic........some people are happy being apathetic....some people are happy getting Government handouts....some people are happy minding their own business.......while others are happy poking their nose right into the middle of other people affairs.....I might be happy delivering an angry response to the last one!

 

An unhealthy mind in my view is the mind that wants to have power, force, threat of force, fraud, manipulate, coerce,  impose their ideals etc upon others.

 

Does NZ First promote the constitutional arrangement of NZ.....I can't recall them ever discussing the Bill of Rights 1688, Universal Declaration of Human Rights etc......and then there is the issue of this below. Makes one consider the legality of Parliament. And maybe all the legislation that has been passed where List MP's  have voted is perhaps illegal. Now Winston being both a lawyer and Politician should know all this....but has he commented and has he ensured that NZ First Policy is in alignment with the constitutional arrangement.....Is that enough elaboration for you?

 

 

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/imperial/1688/0002/latest/DLM4663820… The 2 Houses to sit
  • And thereupon their Majesties were pleased that the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, being the 2 Houses of Parliament, should continue to sit, and with their Majesties' royal concurrence make effectual provision for the settlement of the religion, laws, and liberties of this kingdom, so that the same for the future might not be in danger again of being subverted; to which the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, did agree and proceed to act accordingly:

 

A freely chosen representative should be one that is voted in by the constituents......not on some party list. If there is direct contribution then one could assume that binding referendums would be advocated....now how many list MP's does NZ First have?...I can't recall NZ First declaring that this list MP practice should be unconstitutional. And we all know that referendums are not binding and basically a bad joke.....is that enough elaboration for you?

 

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 21.
  • (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
  • (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
  • (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
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Of course again you pick your words for your political advantage  "A freely chosen representative should be one that is voted in by the constituents......not on some party list"

The [local] party picks who the local candidate will be, frankly you as a voter gets little real choice. So complaining that its not "fair" is simply an attempt to remove a %s significant representation that right now occures due to the party list, about 20% of voters

That isnt democracy.

regards
 

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Feel free to become a compadre in North Korea. I'll even buy your airline tickets for you.

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You make no sense.

Anyway, no thanks, I'll continue to vote here in NZ, I will be thinking of you as a drop my vote into the ballot box.

How are the Libertarians doing in the polls again?

regards

 

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In defence of happy narcissists, eh?  But, seriously. Yes I have had formal training - which is likely why the kind of social behaviour that is attack politics disturbs me so.

 

But onto your other point - you have to accept the NZ Constitution for what it is - and MMP is part of that. To state that list MPs are being unconstitutional in exercising a vote in Parliament is just plain nonsense.

 

And speaking of referendums - we had one on our electoral system at the last general election and the majority voted for MMP to stay. That said however, many of us who did vote that way also expected the Government of the day to accpet the subsequent recommendations of the Electoral Commission with respect to changes to MMP to impove its proportional integrity.  Yet, Judith Collins chose to ignore those recommendations and brought no such proposals for change to the House.

 

And where NZBORA and the UN Declaration on Human Rights is concered, the NZ Law Society has recently reported breaches of those fundamental rights by the National Government in terms of laws it has written, proposed and passed using its narrow majority and often subverting our normal Parliamentary processes as the means to do so;

 

http://www.hrc.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/NZLS_United-Nations-Uni…

 

Very happy you have raised these issues, as Rule of Law is one of my major issues/concerns in respect of this election.

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Attack Politics disturbs you...but you keep sticking the knife in eh!

 

You have not gone back to the foundation of NZ......our constitution has numerous documents it is not good enough to only view or accept some or parts of some.

If Politicians and political parties don't know Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus, 1688 Bill of Rights, NZ has completely ignored the Declaration of Independence...Treaty of Waitangi - Article 3 ( bit of a waste of paper really).....there is no unified understanding in constitutional matters by Politicians hence they do what they please rather than abide by the greater force of constitutional documents.

 

You have not answered my questions on NZ First upholding these Rights for the people.

 

 

 

 

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A freely chosen representative should be one that is voted in by the constituents......not on some party list. 

What's the problem? Don't you know who's on the list as you cast your party vote?

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The problem is we don't choose who is on the list. End up with career pollys with no life experience, other than the dark arts of politics, hanging around long after their used by date.

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We don't get to choose who's standing in our electorate either? Don't like any of them yet still have to vote for one... Pretty much turns into a party vote for me: vote for the person who belongs to the party that appeals most to me.

Most politicians are career politicians anyway. John Key being an exception: he comes in to enrich his mates and will be gone soon after the elections I reckon, unless the Dirty Politics saga doesn't affect the election result much.

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But at least the MP is loyal to the electorate that voted them in - and more importantly can vote them out in the next election. The party list MP is just "loyal" to the party - just having to do enough by fair means or foul to get a high party rank. There are better ways to have proportional representation without the dogs breakfast we have now.

Most politicians are career politicians because the system is set up that way - the longer you hang around the better the perks.

If John Key just wanted to "enrich his mates" wouldn't he just have given them cushy jobs in New York or something more simple than the dog fight of politics?

 

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Not necessarily the MP is loyal to his party and local party offcials and his "oyal" voters who may actually be in a minority.  Be that as it may, the entire point of MMP is better representation, and it achieves that as currently over 15% of voters have represenation they would not otherwise have.

regards

 

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I'm all for proportional representation I just don't think MMP is the best way to go about it. Unfortunately the NZ media framed in a way they it was FPP vs MMP with no other proportional options promoted/examined. MMP results in too deadbeat MPs and too much chance of Epsomlike/Winnie type situations with tail wagging the dog.

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Well you can either protect democracy or Socialism turns to Communism in the blink of an eye........we already have to write to every bureaurat to undertake anything so I suppose most of you will transition well......you had better get used to saying Im a good compadre and support the NZ communist Government, oh yes and denounce any associations that you might have had with a Capitalist or a Capitalist past......and dob in your family who were past Capitalists because that is what a good compadre does..........you wont need to worry about voting as they'll all be hand chosen for you.

 

 

 

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Good thing I'm not paranoid ;-)

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... how can you be so sure that you're not paranoid ? ... do you reckon that subliminal messages from the mass media led you to that conclusion .??? ... or have you been brainwashed by the one world government into thinking that you still retain control your own mind  ...... hmmmmm ?

 

Or maybe not ....

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Ooh, I am very sure, Gummy. I worked very hard at regaining control over my own mind after I stopped using LSD... ;-)

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And which side did you regain control over?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeLm7wHvdxQ

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Funny you should bring that up... I always seem to be veering off to the left! But you figured that already ;-)

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Interesting how you choose your words, "Has Slaters past medical history caused physical harm to you or others?"

From what I can see his behaviour has and is causing harm and distress to others.

Bloggers making money, not the whale if his begging for $s to support the website is any indication. 

regards

 

 

 

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What planet did you say you came from again ???

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The one where libertarians wont get 1000 votes this election.

regards

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Well it took some convincing that the earth wasn't flat...didn't it!! Thoughts of falling over the edge of the earth must have induced paralysing terror in the populace and perhaps there are some remnants in cellular memory today.

One can be a free independent thinker or one can be a sheeple that is the beauty of freedom of choice.

 

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Considering its invariably the right and libertarians that,

a) denies the science of climate change.

b) See's no limits to growth when simple maths shows expotential growth simply isnt possible on a finite planet.

c) Such as youself who seem to believe in "alternative" medications/treatments when medical science points at them being of little benefit and maybe even harmful.

I find it funny that you comment on how some ppl  didnt want to shift from a flat earth view. 

Though note these were the Fundies of their day, Catholics who tortured ppl often to death.

Let alone that in your own words you are a "free independent thinker" when your political blinkers would pass for elephant ears in a zoo.

just too funny.

regards

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Why does my Libertarian philosphy annoy you?

As you stated the numbers in this group are small......so what makes you feel threatened by such a small group who don't wish any harm on anyone else?

 

How many scientific papers do you read each week?? Bcause if you're not reading a steady supply then you are simply not up to date with the latest findngs......

 

So how are you going to differentiate between natural climate cycles of climate change and so-called man made events? It is trickery and deception of major proportions to be using the wording climate change when climate change is also a natural cycle phenomena!!  

 

Denial is refusing to read all the science, denial is making up your mind before all the evidence has been gathered, denial is knowing that these other things exist but refusing to take them into consideration.......looks like the slipper fits the accuser.

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There you go, and you talk about flat earth.

Then you claim you know how to run a business, then want to wait "for all the evidence" when good management practice means you act when the confidence of a severe enough event is high enough to do so.

You/I dont have to read all the research, just enough to see the case for climate change is overwelming enough that you can decide a course of action. 

Plus there is virtually no evidence/science offering an alternative that stands up V the  over-welming amount of evidence that says its us.

regards

 

 

 

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Here you go steven, don't say I never do anything for you.   The link is too long for me to copy out and for some reason I can't copy-paste into interest, but Google "climate change and the intellectual decline of the right" for a recent article by John Quiggin that you will love.

 

All I would add is that while it may well be the case that all climate change deniers are on the right/libertarian end of political spectra, it's not the case that all right-wingers and/or libertarians are climate change deniers. 

 

Opposing economically illiterate, environmentally counterproductive, socially destructive and politically authoritarian approaches proposed to address climate change doesn't mean opposing any action to address climate change. 

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I have found that if using IE you can't do copy and paste on this site - but if you use Firefox, you can. Not sure why that might be.

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Actually hard lift wingers are there, if you read what NZ Labour are saying they want a "just" environmental policy which translates to "it musnt cost any jobs", so they are just not as vocal, but just as un-realistic. 

Also I think from what Im reading the general GOP  (as opposed to the tea party)  are starting to comemnt behind the scenes that climate change action is on the cards.

So really its down to the real hard core and vested interests as active opposition.

In terms of "politically authoritarian" well some ppl have written that its the biggest task faced since teh ramp up to WW2 and honestly I cant see any other way but to get tough and fast.

If both main parties join on that action then I guess it will be sort of "politically authoritarian".  I find it rather sad that is the case I'll admit but really the time for education and honest and open discusion is probably past.  Now its looking really urgent.

regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

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As usual you spout off all over the place making accusations.........admit that you know nothing about what I do and that you are making up stories to fit your beliefs and opinions that you have formed.

 

I am not going to accept repetition as evidence nor will I suffer from the Asch Effect.

I have no desire to be right all the time preferring instead to view all the evidence in a methodical way. Brainwashing and confabulation are not my style.

 

Maybe you should read up on Congnitive Dissonance...humans can and will revise their thoughts to support their actions to help relieve any uncomfortable contradiction they may have between their thoughts and inconsistant actions to those thoughts.

Reading all the research is beneficial as it assists in sorting fact from fiction. Otherwise I might have a preference to only reading research that supports a thought or belief that I may hold......it is very easy for humans to become entrenched if they are not monitoring their mind.

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I can see from what you write that actually yes I am quite mystified on what you achieve.

""Congnitive Dissonance" I am well aware of and look at that as a risk to monitor in my research on these topics.

The problem is for you especially is reading real research and not mumbo jumbo put on by the deniers.

"monitoring their mind" thats just too funny...

regards

 

 

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Kate, The difference between John Minto and Cameron Slater is???  

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Well, the latter has or had some mental health issues, seems to have been close to threatening ppl or providing info to ppl who have, shows little care for others to the point of wishing them ill. The former on the other hand while rather left ing doesnt have such a history?

Otherwise they are both too extreme for my comfort, peas in a pod frankly, either would Im sure would be bad news in power for the likes of me.

regards

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Don't know - does Minto run a blog site? Got a link?

 

He does do a column in The Press occasionally;

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/columnists/john-minto

 

But no foul language/attack politics in there.

 

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"The difference between John Minto and Cameron Slater is???"

I am tempted to reply to that that the difference is the SIS spy on John Minto compared to the SIS spy for Cameron Slater.

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LOL, yes.

regards

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sought after sure, but not in exactly a good, positive way.

regards

 

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whale oil has been around for 10 years

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John Key will not lose the election , simply because most Kiwis can see that the alternative Government made up of a ragtag mob of yelling , screaming, effigy and flag burning yobbos  is too disasterous to even contemplate.

Most people have enough common sense to know better than vote for a loose alliance of rabble -rousing losers who are are so divergent in their views and so far from reality in their thinking, its almost unbelievable .

If it happens , it wont to ua long to realise the newly empowered  mob cant actually agree on anything , and the Government alliance will be stifled completely

This ragtag bunch of  effigy-burning yelling screaming idiots is  offering nothing other than :-

1) Crazy Tax- and- Spend policies that ordinary working PAYE paying  folk will have to pay for

2) More borrowing when they realise that their tax and spend policies have sent us back into recession 

3) All sorts of lunatic lefty and lofty ideas ...... like we should all get to work on busses , when Auckland Transport themselves wont even use the busses they manage to get around

As it is we work too many days in the month for the Government , if I am forced to work more for the state , I would rather do it as an expat elsewhere where wages are higher and taxes are lower and I can enjoy the fruits of my labour

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#3 its not that we should, its that we wont in a few years with petrol too expensive to buy, or rationed we wont have the choice.  Its known as planning ahead.

#2 Actually when a Govn spends it tends to cause inflation and not deflation, all else being equal.

#1 Some truth in there somewhere, certainly the ppl on $140k+ will have 40% tax rate, personally that doesnt sound too bad, IF that is as far as it goes.

regards

 

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You seem to claim quite often to know what 'most kiwis' think. Do you mean to say that this is what YOU think?

.

What's a loose alliance of rabble to you is a genuine sane alternative to another. Nobody holds the absolute truth.

.

BTW, government debt was NZD10 billion when the nats got into government, it's now about NZD71 billion.

First thing they did was cut taxes for the rich, increase the flat tax rate of GST (after JK promised he wouldn't touch GST), and flog off the family silver....

.

That does not say 'good financial/economical management' to me.....

 

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agree

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DFTBA - Oh dear, did you not hear Michael “The cupboard is bare” Cullen skiting in Parliament at the end of their tenure that everything was spent? Or Phil Goff regarding the “Legacy Budget” that will leave it very difficult for Nation to govern - let alone cope with a GFC and earthquakes. Even the Labour Finance Minister  and Phil Goffcould admit the finances in a mess why can’t you?

To quote John Armstong in the Herald in 2011:

“National had barely got its feet under the Cabinet table before the Treasury further revised its forecasts and projected deficits of $6 billion-plus.  So much for careful management.

Labour is relying on short memories to rewrite history, however. It won’t fool everybody. But in the heat of an election campaign, it is easy to spout fiction and difficult to establish fact. Labour cannot be excused such distortions and mistruths.”

I guess they fooled you and Steven.

 

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But the one fact remains: govrnment debt was a manageable 10 billion in 2008. It's a hefty, scary 71 billion, today.

.

National have not shown they can manage the country's finances. The were irresponsible with tax cuts, and squandered 1.8 billion on the South Canterbury Finance bail out - which they simply did not have the money for, and were not legally obliged to do.

The EQC covered a lot of the ChCh cost, and theNats are not ashamed now to claim the rebuild of the city (a shambles though it is) as 'economic growth'.

At least Cullen started NZSuper fund. The Nats paused contributions....and fiddled with Kiwisaver....

Everybody seems to think that a conservative government is better for the economy, when the only people i's good for are the already wealthy, and the large corporations. Everybody else gets shafted, because the poor are bled dry so the rich can party.

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DFTBA - just face it you have been fooled. Michael and Phil even went to the trouble of explaining it to everybody when they left office. They couln't resist bating the incoming government - rightly knowing people like you would foregt it by now.

Look at the at the 2008 treasury forecasts - "Core Crown net debt is also expected to rise to $44.7 billion or 20.7% of GDP by June 2013. The increase in net core Crown debt is owing to the run-down of NZDMO financial assets and increases in borrowings expected during the forecast period." Hardly $10 billion and falling like you suggest.

"Projections based on the upside scenario still show ongoing OBEGAL deficits, but these do narrow to around 0.7% of GDP by 2023."  

2023. Nice. And that was the upside senario.

So the Labour government left the country with perpertual deficits going foreward and debt blowing out even before the GFC and earthquakes kicked in. Labour weren't even planning on balancing the books and National have done so despite Michael "leaving the cupbard bare".

Who are the poor getting bled dry? Household incomes were up 7% last year. Take a trip outside NZ and see what a poor person lives like.

http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/forecasts/eff2008/eff08.pdf

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So Boatman is on a promise to become an expat after the election?

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