Interest.co.nz is talking money, tax and delving into political parties' financial and economic policies ahead of this year's election. In this installment, Greens co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick discusses her view on debt, KiwiSaver, supermarkets and the portfolios her party would want to hold if part of the next government.
Green Party co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick says if her party is negotiating to be part of the next government, the portfolios they have their eye on are energy, transport, state-owned enterprises and of course, climate change.
“We care about holding influence with regard to finance. I’ve made clear, Minister of Finance is obviously my goal,” Swarbrick told interest.co.nz in an interview.
At the 2023 general election, the Greens received 11.60% of the party vote and gained 15 seats. Recent political polling for November’s election has the party receiving between 10% and 16% of the party vote, reaching its highest level ever in the latest 1News Verian poll, at 16%. Asked about this, Swarbrick said the Greens could not take anything for granted.
“Polls are not set in stone. We’ve got to do the work.”
Labour leader Chris Hipkins has made it clear that Barbara Edmonds would be Finance Minister in a Labour-led government. Swarbrick said it was not for Hipkins to decide.
"I haven't said that that's a bottom line ... We will wait and see how New Zealanders decide how they want the next government formed.”
‘A complete unwillingness to work with us across the parliamentary aisle’
Asked about what it’s been like being a political leader in Opposition these past three years, Swarbrick told interest.co.nz: "The honest truth is, it’s been incredibly frustrating.”
“There's been a complete unwillingness to work with us across the parliamentary aisle, and ultimately, it has been our communities, our climate, our environment that has suffered for that.”
While people could argue that politicians are able to cut loose and yell at each other when they’re in Opposition, Swarbrick said she wasn’t in her role to do that.
“I'm in this place to try and actually get tangible improvements for people's lives.”
Supermarket policy
In September, the Greens announced their food and grocery policy, which includes establishing a publicly owned supermarket chain called KiwiMart which has a mandate to prioritise affordability for consumers.
It would require Foodstuffs and Woolworths to divest at least 120 stores and distribution centre capacity into public ownership to establish KiwiMart.
Asked what would happen to owner-operators and if that model would still continue under the Crown, Swarbrick said there would be legislation and it would be up to the Commerce Commission to determine which of the 120 stores around the country would end up being divested.
“The way that the Commerce Commission would do that would be looking at geographical monopolies.”
New Zealand did not have a shortage of supermarkets, she said, instead there was a shortage of competition.
“And that's what happens when you have a duopoly controlling in excess of 80% of the supermarket market. So it's up to the Commerce Commission to determine which of those 120 stores, that 15% of the market, ends up being divested, and then it will be for us to purchase them at fair price.”
KiwiSaver ‘shouldn’t be for petty partisanship’
Swarbrick said KiwiSaver should be an issue that gets some basic consensus.
“We’ve seen with interest what’s been happening across, particularly the two legacy parties, taking potshots at each other, and I think with an issue that is as big as this, it really shouldn’t be one for petty partisanship.”
The Green Party had been engaging with different economists on this issue and had looked at Fraser Whineray’s proposal.
Swarbrick said her party had concerns around total remuneration packaging and largely aligned with the proposals that had been put out by the Labour Party.
“But again, we really want to see there being some long-term political consensus on this so that we don’t end up with a situation where it’s just undone by the next government coming in.”
While the Greens supported both National and Labour’s paid parental leave top-up proposal, Swarbrick said they were concerned about the potential for compulsion, and compulsion for sole traders and the self-employed.
There was potential with some of the KiwiSaver proposals that some people may end up with less money in their back pocket at the end of the week, she said.
“So we do need to walk carefully through these proposals but I guess the bigger point is a lot of these pitches, particularly from parties of the right, seem to be coming through on the premise that superannuation is supposedly, in their argument, becoming more unaffordable.”
The Greens support keeping the superannuation age at 65. This stance aligns with parties like Labour and NZ First.
“If we have governments that are sensible and take responsibility for planning into the future, which means making the requisite investments, which is why I come back to that really basic point about the need for us to have far more rational, far more evidence-based discussions around taxation and around debt usage in this country."
“Because the Green Party will always stand against silly uses of debt that are not increasing our productive capacity, our well-being into the future, [and] not contributing to the ability to build a more resilient country.”
Swarbrick said her party saw the opportunity for debt to be used, for example, to invest in infrastructure, “improve our productive capacity, our hospitals, our schools, and so on and so forth.”
“That means that we have a country that is all the more capable of generating more revenue to pay for these things,” she said.
‘Unproductive versus productive debt’
When it came to debt, Swarbrick said she thought the debate around government debt levels was “arbitrary” and “is focused on just proportionality to GDP (gross domestic product) as opposed to what it is that we’re actually getting out of debt.”
“It is an arbitrary figure in so far as different political parties often are chasing the figure for its own right, as opposed to thinking about what is a productive use of debt to increase our productive capacity to create new jobs and therefore to actually increase our capacity to pay back that debt in the first place,” Swarbrick said.
“If we can take a step back and ask ourselves, ‘what is productive versus unproductive debt?’
“I'd make the argument that an unproductive use of debt would be Nicola Willis taking on an extra $3 billion in order to dish out her tax cuts to landlords, which have created precisely zero jobs and added no productive capacity to our economy.”
“But if we were to, for example, spend that $3 billion, be it through debt or generated through revenue, through making our tax system fairer, then we increase our productive capacity as a country.”
Swarbrick said she thought this would improve our economic resilience, reduce exposure to imported fossil fuel inflation and create new jobs.
“So the basic point here, I think, is more: what are we using debt for, and how are we increasing our capacity to service that debt, as opposed to merely chasing headline fiscal figures, while the real world around us is falling apart.”
Swarbrick said the Greens’ would release its “full fiscals” following the pre-election economic and fiscal update.
‘It is incredibly important that we also have political parties clear on their values’
Another party the Greens have started to overlap with in terms of policies, like lobbying reform, is the Opportunity Party, a political party that has been polling well - and in some cases, has been positioned as kingmaker.
Asked what she would say to people who think the Greens and Opportunity are the same party, Swarbrick said: “I’d say that we are the party that has 30 plus years of experience actually working across the aisle and getting things done, including with John Key’s National Government and obviously, in Government with the Labour Party.”
“I think it's really, really important that we have more political parties that are advocating for evidence-based policies," Swarbrick said.
“But I think at a time where the world is going through so much tumult, that it is incredibly important that we also have political parties clear on their values so they have an internal moral compass as to how they are going to orient themselves and deal with changing contexts.”
Swarbrick doesn’t think the Greens and Opportunity are competing for the same votes but “arguably, all politicians and all political parties are competing for the same votes.”
“No political party and no politician is entitled to anything. We don’t take anything for granted.”
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